Burma – Myanmar

[Manforallseasons]

Quote Originally Posted by Oliver2 View Post

I always wondered what was going through the minds of the national servicemen who were required to shoot at unarmed Red shirts a few years ago....


The same thing that is going on in the minds of soldiers in Burma at the moment!

[Oliver2]

True. I saw the photo of the Burmese nun praying for and protecting demonstrators, noting that two of the soldiers were shown also kneeling down, praying with her.

If only ordinary conscripts there and in Thailand were able to resist their officers.

[goji]

I always wondered what was going through the minds of the national servicemen who were required to shoot at unarmed Red shirts a few years ago....
The same thing that is going on in the minds of soldiers in Burma at the moment!

I suspect Burma would need a split in the army or civil war to resolve their problem.

I'll not comment on the other country, as explaining my idea of a solution would break board rules.

[Moses]

in Burma


I suspect Burma

Guys, maybe it is already time to drop your cork helmets into trach can? Altogether with colonial names? Please respect nation and chosen by this nation country name - Myanmar.

[gerefan2]

Guys, maybe it is already time to drop your cork helmets into trach can? Altogether with colonial names? Please respect nation and chosen by this nation country name - Myanmar.
It’s not just the British...it’s a super power too!
https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-burma/

[Dodger]

.

Please respect nation and chosen by this nation country name - Myanmar.

Not that it matters...BUT:

The military government changed the country's name to “Myanmar” in 1989, although to the Burmese people, it changed nothing, because in the Burmese language, “Myanmar” is simply the more formal version of “Burma”.

Since then, this name change has been the subject of controversies and mixed incidences of adoption, and much of the world still shows defiance of the junta refusing to use the new name. For instance, the United States government continues to use the name “Burma.

Personally, I prefer using the name "Burma" out of respect for the Burmese people. The military junta has done to earn the respect of anyone.

[goji]

The title of this thread invokes images of healthy and proud young men ready to defend their country, images that I can't get out of my mind...

Odd how they do "military exercises" in underwear.
Yet anyone visiting Cupidol earlier in 2021 would be fobbed off with fully dressed boys.

As for Burma, well both Burma and Myanmar have been in use for a very long time, long before colonialism. I'll carry on using the word Burma until a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government decides to change the name.

[billyhouston]

"Personally, I prefer using the name "Burma" out of respect for the Burmese people." .... and therein lies the problem.

First of all, the name 'Myanma' goes back to before the days of Marco Polo and the name 'Burma' was given to part of the present day country by the colonial power. Respecting the Burmese people disrespects the 40% of the population who are not Burmese and belong to more than 130 ethnicities.

"Bertil Lintner, a veteran journalist who has been covering Myanmar for decades, said what the Tatmadaw (military) was doing in urban areas now is “plunder and pure criminal behavior” and equivalent to what they have done for decades in the parts of the country where ethnic minorities live."

Burmese is both a language and an ethnicity and the Tatmadawgyi is mostly comprised of Burmese. It's not just a case of atrocities against the Rohingya in Rakhine but, for the past 60 or more years, against all those in the ethnic areas. At the moment, while attention is elsewhere, they are committing what can only be described as genocide against the Kachin people. My own partner, an ethnic Shan, fled the country because he didn't feel that working as a human mine-sweeper for the Burmese Army was life enhancing.

Technically speaking the country of Burma existed only from 1 April 1937 until 4 Januay 1948. If you must use 'Burma' please respect the ethnics, who have suffered so much at the hands of the Burmese, and use the full name "The Union of Burma".

Thank you.

[Dodger]

"Personally, I prefer using the name "Burma" out of respect for the Burmese people." .... and therein lies the problem.

First of all, the name 'Myanma' goes back to before the days of Marco Polo and the name 'Burma' was given to part of the present day country by the colonial power. Respecting the Burmese people disrespects the 40% of the population who are not Burmese and belong to more than 130 ethnicities.

"Bertil Lintner, a veteran journalist who has been covering Myanmar for decades, said what the Tatmadaw (military) was doing in urban areas now is “plunder and pure criminal behavior” and equivalent to what they have done for decades in the parts of the country where ethnic minorities live."

Burmese is both a language and an ethnicity and the Tatmadawgyi is mostly comprised of Burmese. It's not just a case of atrocities against the Rohingya in Rakhine but, for the past 60 or more years, against all those in the ethnic areas. At the moment, while attention is elsewhere, they are committing what can only be described as genocide against the Kachin people. My own partner, an ethnic Shan, fled the country because he didn't feel that working as a human mine-sweeper for the Burmese Army was life enhancing.

Technically speaking the country of Burma existed only from 1 April 1937 until 4 Januay 1948. If you must use 'Burma' please respect the ethnics, who have suffered so much at the hands of the Burmese, and use the full name "The Union of Burma".

Thank you.

Much appreciated Brad.

That was both interesting from a historical perspective, and insightful.

"The Union of Burma" it is.

[cdnmatt]

I'm sure the people currently living in fear during the militar lockdown and those being murdered will really appreciate that we're bickering over the proper name of their country on an online forum to show solidarity.

A friend of mine in Canada is decent online friends with a guy over there, they talk daily, my friend collects online payments for him as he does graphic design work online, then forwards him the payments via Western Union. Well, that was until the military coup, now getting him his money has turned out to be quite difficult.

Anyway, guess it's pretty bad over there. Apparently, the opposition force has already went so far as to draw up a new constituion, have plans for a public execution of the military generals, etc. Naturally, that's all assuming they achieve their objective of overthrowing the military.

[Dodger]

Technically speaking the country of Burma existed only from 1 April 1937 until 4 Januay 1948. If you must use 'Burma' please respect the ethnics, who have suffered so much at the hands of the Burmese, and use the full name "The Union of Burma".

billy, I meant to thank you for your insightful post before, and entered the name "Brad" in error. So, thank you.

According to pro-democracy activists, the name is useful in gauging how countries feel about the regime. Dictatorships like China, North Korea, Cuba, and possibly others, remain supportive of the hostile military regime, and refer to the country as Myanmar for that reason, whereas Democratic Countries like the U.S., UK, and others, still refer to the country as Burma.

Russia is a major arms supplier to Myanmar, and its Deputy of Defense minister reportedly met coup leader General Min Aung Hlaing in the capital Naypyitaw last month, drawing criticism from rights activists who accused Moscow of legitimizing the junta. Russia is clearly not happy with the recent sanctions imposed by the West which compromise their arms sales, and is continuing to support the military junta for this reason ($$$).

Read about it here (Reuters):

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-myanmar-politics-idUSKBN2BT0MP

[billyhouston]

I think that much of the reason for using the name 'Burma' harks back to Aung San Suu Kyi's demanding that the country be called by that name. To misquote the celebrated Miss Mandy Rice-Davies, "she would say that wouldn't she" because she was, and still is, a Burmese nationalist. At the end of WW2, the government of Clem Atlee was not minded to include the so called 'Frontier' or 'Primitive' areas in an independent country, as they were not thought to be ready for independence. At the time the British were running down the army after an exhausting 6 years of war and, particularly in 1947, had domestic problems with a harsh winter and the need even for bread rationing. Bogoke Aung San threatened to use his army and Britain capitulated to his demand that these areas be part of the independent country. Britain demanded that the agreement of the ethnics be obtained and this was partially done. The Chin, the Kachin and the Shan met with Aung San and the outcome was the Panglong Agreement of 12 February 1947. The Karen refused to participate as they felt that what was on offer was less than they had been promised, which was independence.

In addition, and I imagine in an attempt to protect the ethnics, Articles 201 to 206 were included in 'The Constitution of the Union of Burma 1947'. These gave the ethnic States (with the exception of the Kachin for technical reasons) the right to secede subject to certain conditions. They also set out the mechanism that would be used for secession. Shortly after the ten year condition was met, the Burmese put the army into the ethnic areas to prevent the 'breakup'. The reign of terror that followed defies belief, but we are talking about remote parts of the world which seldom, if ever, received public attention. I spend time with one of the rebel armies who have been fighting the Burmese for more than 60 years, in one form or another, and try to help them understand how the present situation came about. In Shan State, and I don't doubt that it was the same in other 'States', (The States are the ethnic areas of the country and the 'Divisions' the Burmese areas.) the language in schools was Burmese and Shan was forbidden. The people were denied not only their language, but also their history and their culture. The language was used at home and also taught in Buddhist temples. The history and culture were also taught in Wats, and, on the history side, I did some of this myself. Interestingly Maths and Science were taught in English from age 11 or 12.

Interestingly, both the UN and Amnesty International use the term Myanmar. The 2008, Nargis, Constitution calls the country 'The Republic of the Union of Burma', which I found unacceptable having only read as far as article 6!

I could go on to recount some of the family's experiences, which beggar belief, but I have already written too much.

[Moses]

Russia is clearly not happy with the recent sanctions imposed by the West which compromise their arms sales, and is continuing to support the military junta for this reason ($$$).

Read about it here (Reuters):

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-myanmar-politics-idUSKBN2BT0MP

Again somebody speaking about sanctions? Do you mean toothless actions of US govt against Junta's leaders?

Let's see real picture on SIPRI https://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade/page/trade_register.php

Myanmar's suppliers in 2010-2020:

Austria - copters, 2018
Belgium - helicopters 2016,
France diesels for military ships 2010,
Germany military aircrafts 2015
Israel 2014-15 armored cars
Netherlands Fokker aircrafts 2017,
Ukraine: tanks, missiles, helicopters

But is correct: biggest suppliers are China, Russia and India.

[aot871]

Moses ,,,,,,,Are u just a mouth piece for Putin .?

[Brad the Impala]

Thanks Billy for this informative post

[Dodger]

I.

In Shan State, and I don't doubt that it was the same in other 'States', (The States are the ethnic areas of the country and the 'Divisions' the Burmese areas.) the language in schools was Burmese and Shan was forbidde.

billy,

Do you happen to know what the status of the Shan state is now?

Does it still have the status of an autonomous region?

Any of your personal insight would be appreciated.

[billyhouston]

During the British occupation (1885-1948) the Federated Shan States had the status of a British Protectorate. This included the Shan States and what is now Kayah State, home to the Karreni or Red Karen. This meant that they were ruled by the Saophas, or hereditary princes, and were not part of 'ministerial' Burma which was ruled from Delhi and, thus, Burma became a province of India until 1937.

These days there are regions in the East of Shan State that are Wa autonomous regions. The UWSA (United Wa State Army) is the most powerful of all the EAOs (Ethnic Armed Organisations). They're Chinese backed and, basically, drug runners masquerading as an ethnic army. If you want to know where Thailand's yaba and ya-ice come from, look no further. There is a town in the very north of Thailand where the border actually runs through the outskirts of the town and where it's convenient to be able to speak Mandarin! Many of the inhabitants are ethnic Wa and the other side of the border is actually controlled by the Wa.

Otherwise Shan State is by some way the largest of the Regions (States or Divisions) of the country. The government writ does not run in much of the South of the State which is controlled by the SSA (South) and, in the East by the aforementioned Wa. Protests have taken place in the capital, Taunggyi and in the North of the State around Hsipaw, Lashio and, possible, Namtu. In this region the TNLA (Palaung people) and the KIA (Kachin people) are active but there is currently fighting between the TNLA and the SSA (South) who are seeking to move into the area. My line with the SSA is that Shan fighting Burmese is fine, but Shan fighting Shan is unacceptable. This results in quite heated discussions and their reason for doing it makes me very angry.

The greater part of Shan State is, nominally at least, under government control.

[Moses]

Moses ,,,,,,,Are u just a mouth piece for Putin .?

Yes, sure. Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Israel, Netherlands, and even Ukraine supplied junta with military technics and weapons as per records of most reputable Sweden military institute, but this only because Moses is "mouthpiece of Putin" and not because money made these govts shameless and equal in morale to Russia, India and China... right?

[Dodger]

137 Human Rights Organizations from 31 countries petitioned the UN to support sanctions of Arms sales to Burma/Myranmar. The Country’s selling military hardware to Burma/Myranmar include: China, Russia, North Korea, India, Israel, Ukraine and the Philippines.

It goes without saying that supplying any equipment to the military right now enables further abuses and bolsters the junta’s ability to repress Myanmar’s people, thus the reason a Global Arms Embargo is now being strongly considered.

As always, it all about; Power Struggle - Political Gamesmanship - $$$Money$$$. While the PEOPLE who are suffering atrocities and having their human rights violated have the wonderful choices of either; A) protesting and risk being killed, or B) sitting back in the dark shadows waiting for some fucking miracle to occur.

In all fairness to the discussion, no country sells, or spends more, on military arms/equipment than The United States. I’ve often wondered what the World would be like if we didn’t have to spend all of this money - just to protect ourselves from each other. What a fucking abstract concept. A World where countries actually looked for opportunities to help each other, versus, hyperventilating over the prospects of gaining more power and building empires, only to attempt ruling people, who have no intention of being RULED.. I know I’m going off the deep end a bit, but this is exactly how I view these things.

Personally, I’m not very optimistic about the outcome in Burma/Myranmar. My confidence in UN actions when it comes to protecting human rights violations is close to ZERO, and history shows us that it usually takes decades, if not longer, for military dictatorships to be toppled.

My heart goes out to the PEOPLE.

Below is a link to the arms embargo write-up:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/02/24/joint-call-global-arms-embargo-myanmar

Countries with the largest Military Spending 2019

https://www.statista.com/statistics/262742/countries-with-the-highest-military-spending/

[Dodger]

the British occupation (1885-1948) the Federated Shan States had the status of a British Protectorate. This included the Shan States and what is now Kayah State, home to the Karreni or Red Karen.

billy,

Thank you very much for taking the time to educate all of us on the history and demographics of The Union of Burma.

If you don't mind me asking; What was your role when you were there?

I fully understand if you would rather not answer this, but I'm just curious. You've certainly obtained more information than the regular NGO or Forward Observer, and I doubt that there are any journalists who could have braved the elements, as you clearly did, during your tenure there.

Also: Again, if you don't mind sharing: Do you have an opinion regrading the outcome that you'd be willing to share with us?

[NitNoi]

Wile I regret the costs of war "If you don't fight, you lose!"

[Moses]

Wile I regret the costs of war "If you don't fight, you lose!"

It is true only about already started wars on own territory.

[billyhouston]

I'm afraid that I don't feel able to suggest what the eventual outome might be. What strikes me as odd is that, on this occasion, we have heard very little from the Sangha. During the major uprising in 2007, known appropriately as the 'Saffron Revolution', monks played a big role. The absence of support from this quarter makes me wonder whether they have come to some sort of 'arrangement' with the military. There is certainly a significant number of monks who are nationalistic, typified by the vile U Wirathu, but I had hoped that the Sangha had this under control. It would be very easy for the Sangha to accept assurances from the army, were they to be given, that the army were keen to maintain Buddhism as a major force in Myanmar.

The generals are totally committed and will go on killing people for as long as they feel they have to. Sanctions, however targetted, are a waste of time, they simply don't care. All that matters is their survival. One day, just over a week ago, they killed 12 kids and this is just part of their attempt to terrorise the population. They shoot at random and don't care whether it's a protester they hit or not. While not an emotional person, I weep at some of the stories coming out of the country. At the moment www.irrawaddy.com is still functioning though the Army are taking action against them.

Having travelled in the country a fair deal over the past 20 years, I came to realise the extent to which the Burmese, in the form of the Tatmadawgyi, had murdered, raped and pillaged in the ethnic areas as instruments of government policy. At independence the Burmese had the rice and the ethnics had the natural resources. Burmese rice these days is of very poor quality and the best rice is grown in the ethnic areas. The Burmese want the resources, but not the people who live there. As an example of this you might look at the border between Shan State and Mandalay Division and ask yourself how Mogok and Maymyo came to be in Mandalay Division? Until Independence they were part of the Shan States. Mogok has the Rubies and other precious stones and Maymyo has the climate to grow all sorts of things flowers/vegetables/fruit for the central part of the country.

In the course of travels in the ethnic areas it became evident that while they sang about the 'Panglong Agreement', they had no idea what it contained. They had no access to the details of this important document and I made it my job, when the opportunity arose, to educate them. This was best done in thew local Wat or, more recently, in the camps of one of the EAOs. Having met a history graduate of Taunggyi University, who had become a PhD student, it was shocking to discover that his knowledge of his own ethnic history was weaker than mine. Things are taught from a Burmese perspective even in, and perhaps especially in, the ethnic areas.

My interest in all this was reinforced when I met my Shan partner some 15 years ago. Given the tendency of the Shan to marry at a young and to have large families I have a large extended family, with whom I find it very difficult to keep up. Some have fled the country and those that remain live in quite remote areas. While this was a disadvantage in the past, with forced relocation and other army activities, it's probably an advantage at present. We are talking about people who live in bamboo houses, without electricity or running water, cook over an open fire (only allowed at certain times of day in case the village gets burned down) no postal service and very basic healthcare facilities. This is improving, albeit slowly.

The standard work on Shan history is "History of the Shan State: From its Origins to 1962" by Sai Aung Tun. It's usually out of print and pretty expensive when available. The views expressed here are my own and others may well have a diffierent take on things.

[latintopxxx]

...this is all far too serious for a gay boartd...can we get back to basics please...no matter what they call the place lets concentrate on the critical bit of data..are the guys attractive...fuckable...what is the gay situatiuon like...best app to use when renting companioinship...cost/hour/day...any good gay hotels/neighbourhoods.....cost of a meal/beer...

[Uranus]

...this is all far too serious for a gay boartd...can we get back to basics please...no matter what they call the place lets concentrate on the critical bit of data..are the guys attractive...fuckable...what is the gay situatiuon like...best app to use when renting companioinship...cost/hour/day...any good gay hotels/neighbourhoods.....cost of a meal/beer...

The Myanmar military men screw their people every day, and have done for decades.