Pattaya: would goji and gerefan2 turn out the lights on departure

[StevieWonders]

Here's the translation:
Thai media Siam Rath went down to Pattaya to investigate after the words "La Laew Pattaya" - Goodbye Pattaya - were trending on Facebook site Pattaya Talk.

It appeared that everyone was loading their possessions onto pick-ups and heading back to the villages. There were supportive comments but there was no hiding the abject depression. Pattaya, once packed full of tourists and life especially in the high season is now deserted.

To confirm this Siam Rath went to the resort and saw that many apartment complexes were for sale or lease - some didnt have a single person staying in them any more.

Phasakorn Suntharot - the owner of Suntharot Apartment - said that his tenants started to leave during the first wave of the pandemic. Then just when it looked like there was to be a recovery along came the second wave. His tenants were all people who worked in the entertainment industry and they have just gone home to save money. He has just one room rented out now. Pattaya has nothing left, he lamented.

https://siamrath.co.th/n/217783

[cdnmatt]

Don't fret, either Pattaya will return or there will be new Pattaya's opening up in the future.

[Armando]

Perhaps the Mayor's desire to make the city a family oriented destination is coming true. Alas!

[arsenal]

"April come she will
When streams are ripe and swelled with rain
May she will stay
Resting in my arms again
June she'll change her tune
In restless walks she'll prowl the night
July she will fly
And give no warning to her flight
August die she must
The autumn winds blow chilly and cold
September I remember
A love once new has now grown old"
Paul Simon

Spring will return.

[Dodger]

Seeing as we're in the middle of the largest global pandemic in world history, what's happening in Pattaya should not be surprising to anyone. Why should Pattaya be any different than any other major tourist destination in the world right now?

Those people loading up their pickup trucks and heading North will most likely be using the very same pickup trucks to haul their possessions back to Pattaya once the vaccine is in-play and tourists start returning in numbers again.

Specific to the gay scene: Thai boys are extremely resilient...tough as nails when it comes to surviving without money, and know exactly where the money's at. With the economy being set back 50 years, they have 100 times the "supply" to meet the "demand", and when the tourists return - so will they.

Right now, many of the boys who worked the scene in Pattaya (and elsewhere) are up-country hauling vegetables to the local market, working the fields, re-attaching the roof on mama's house, or hanging out at the local motorbike repair shop. I visit Isaan frequently, and this is what I see. When the tourists return in any numbers, the mobile phones in their pockets will immediately start ringing, and 8-10 hours later they'll be stepping off a bus in Pattaya trying to remember how to say "Up 2 U".. That's just how it works.

I love watching the news media when they report on a major storm occurring somewhere: The reporter makes a mad dash to the dead-center of the storm - try's to remain standing in a dramatic pose as 100 MPH winds force his eyelids open - holds one arm up to stop the rain from knocking his wig off - as he frantically screams into his microphone..."This is really a terrible storm".

[snotface]

In April was the jackal born,
In June the rain-fed rivers swelled.
'Never in all my life,' quoth he,
'Have I so great a flood beheld.'

(Translation of an Indian proverb)

In other words, 'Don't panic!' (Corporal Jones, Dad's Army).

[wingnut]

The whores won't come racing back until the customers come racing back.
The customers won't come racing back until there's whores there to service them.

Thank goodness for the food and the temples (and now the music thanks NIrish guy) eh?

[Manforallseasons]

Yes they will turn out the lights and lament over this song: https://youtu.be/YBoaisBEXvA

[Dodger]

Yes they will turn out the lights and lament over this song: https://youtu.be/YBoaisBEXvA

No...no...no, this song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zSecRAFM14

[goji]

I'm not turning out any lights when leaving, having been making modest contributions towards keeping them running for the last few weeks.

Top tip: Don't worry about what you can't control. And for those who already quit patronising businesses before they closed, there's even less reason to worry or keep flogging the same horse.

Some slightly more positive music is required: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DwjuKhBIIIQ

Or some good music: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VWG4-4Y6Z60

Singing about Boyztown as it is:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bjkPQYWNTlg

Finally, I'd link to that video shot in a Bangkok Gogo but couldn't find the link.

[dab69]

"To confirm this Siam Rath went to the resort and saw that many apartment complexes were for sale or lease - some didnt have a single person staying in them any more. "

Wish we could buy right now and snap up a good price.
Quote us some prices with pictures and make us drool...(more than we drool naturally at this age)

[christianpfc]

Seeing as we're in the middle of the largest global pandemic in world history,...
The Spanish Flue affected the entire Western World (North America and Europe), I don't know about the rest of the world, and killed more peoplel than the First World War.

If we look at just Europe, there were Plague epidemics that killed half the population and took decades to overcome (i.e. reaching same population and economic development as before).

Number of death by Covid is insignificant compared to these, and only now number of death by Covid has reached a similar level as death by smoking, drinking or road accidents.

Only the measures to combat Covid (with limited success), and the economic damage are unprecedented.

[dab69]

Continuing with the upbeat and uplifting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M6HKqzp9SU

[goji]

The Spanish Flue affected the entire Western World (North America and Europe), I don't know about the rest of the world, and killed more peoplel than the First World War.

If we look at just Europe, there were Plague epidemics that killed half the population and took decades to overcome (i.e. reaching same population and economic development as before).

Number of death by Covid is insignificant compared to these, and only now number of death by Covid has reached a similar level as death by smoking, drinking or road accidents.

Only the measures to combat Covid (with limited success), and the economic damage are unprecedented.

Very well put. The Spanish Flu killed about 50 million, of all ages. Covid has killed about 1 million, many of whom may well have died within a year or two anyway, as it's mostly taking those who are already frail. Not nice, but I'd rather a disease that takes me when I'm 82 than at 18.

Thailand has 79 covid deaths and that's deemed important enough to shut down entire sectors of the economy.
In comparison, there are hundreds of road traffic deaths every month and that's not considered important enough for even simple road safety measures, like enforcement of helmet laws, which don't even have any economic downside.

[Marc K]

I am really getting sick of reading this specious argument. Please understand you cannot compare the threat of "road accidents" with that of a NEW ("novel") infectious disease? We can create actuarial tables for deaths on the highway. We cannot create actuarial tables for a novel infectious agent which we don't understand, and which can mutate at a moment's notice, and which is therefore a threat to all ages, all races, in all corners of the globe.

To be honest the scariest part of this infectious disease is that we don't have any idea what its downstream effects will be -- 1 yr from now, 10 years from now, even 1 generation from now.

An example is HPV. As gay men it is a curse because it causes can quickly unsightly anal warts and, less likely, penile warts. But 20-30 years later that nasty virus is responsible for the appearance of nasty anal cancers, in fact it is by far the leading cause of anal cancer.

That virus became highly transmissible, and now infects about 50% of men (leading to cervical cancer in women, as well as anal cancer in men). Thanks God, after a generation, a HPV vaccine (Gardasil) was discovered and is highly efficacious. In fact if you know any young gay men out there PLEASE try to convince them to get vaccinated. Perhaps the next generation of gay men will have one less horrible thing to worry about. And of course women too!


Come'on guys, please don't be so dismissive of this COVID threat. We must get it under control so it cannot do more damage, and isn't given the space in which to mutate further to become more dangerous. And that is why Thailand, as most reasonable countries in the world, is trying so hard to contain it, even at the expense of huge economic damage.

[wingnut]

I'm one of those in the high risk category (old) Marc so here is my perspective. It is also the view of many friends likewise old. There's way too much hysteria. Way way too much. People are going to die of something and many things kill them. If this one doesn't get me then at my age something else will. Citing other causes of death helps provide that all too rare value - perspective. Most of your post rabbits on about something that actually does not kill - HPV. What's the point of that comparison? Nothing!

The media needs stories. Stories about bogeymen sell. That's it. It's a circular process.

[gerefan2]

The media needs stories. Stories about bogeymen sell. That's it. It's a circular process.

The Virus is the Media
The Media is the Virus.

[Dodger]

The Spanish Flue affected the entire Western World (North America and Europe), I don't know about the rest of the world, and killed more people than the First World War.

I stand corrected. I should have stated; "the worst global pandemic in our lifetime". Well, at least in most of our lifetimes. And I hope the last.

[cdnmatt]

I don't know, KoVid has already killed 60,000 more Americans than died in all of WWII, and it's nowhere close to being over, so there's that...

Also, KoVid numbers are under reported the world over.

[Armando]

"To confirm this Siam Rath went to the resort and saw that many apartment complexes were for sale or lease - some didnt have a single person staying in them any more. "

Wish we could buy right now and snap up a good price.
Quote us some prices with pictures and make us drool...(more than we drool naturally at this age)
Drool? Wait till you find out that there is no management income and the common areas of the property deteriorate at a very fast rate.

I recall when I was looking for an apartment in Bangkok at the height of the Asian Economic crisis. A friend with a riverside apartment in a large complex off Rama 3 offered to sell it to me for any reasonable price since there were just no buyers. The flat was in very good condition although the river view was only partial. What put me off was entering the complex. All the corridrs had just one bare bulb. Only one lift was working for many floors. There was a lot of dust around. Despite good price, all that just put me off. Empty apartment complexes have downsides.

[Armando]

There's way too much hysteria. Way way too much. People are going to die of something and many things kill them. If this one doesn't get me then at my age something else will. Citing other causes of death helps provide that all too rare value - perspective.
That's one view. I consider it a load of b/s! Of course people die of something. Are you ready to die now in your car or when crossing the road? Or of a heart attack? Well I and my friends are not. Yes, there is a lot of media hype. But 107 million cases and 2.3 million deaths is worth a great deal of hype. We know we have not the faintest idea how long this virus is going to be with us and for how long it will continue to replicate so that yet more new drugs will have to be created to combat it. We've been living with HIV for around 40 years and still no cure. The drugs controlling HIV work - for now. We have no idea how long covid19 will be with us. As long as it is, it is decimating industries worldwide. My guess is that hundreds of millions have had their livelihoods seriously affected. That is exponentially more than in the early years of HIV.

I can remember the sense of utter panic when SARS hit in 2003. This was a much more deadly virus in terms of those infected with a much shorter time span between infection and appearance of symptoms. Then after killing less than a thousand it suddenly disappeared. Covid19 is a much more insidious beast and it is already replicating such that at least one of the new vaccines may not - I stress may not - be effective. How long before other new strains appear? And you consider this media hype? To each his own.

[StevieWonders]

I can remember the sense of utter panic when SARS hit in 2003. This was a much more deadly virus in terms of those infected with a much shorter time span between infection and appearance of symptoms. Then after killing less than a thousand it suddenly disappeared. Covid19 is a much more insidious beast and it is already replicating such that at least one of the new vaccines may not - I stress may not - be effective. How long before other new strains appear? And you consider this media hype? To each his own.A wonderful rant Armando, one of your best.

[latintopxxx]

ok...so a post about nothing...bet u also wrap your credit card in silver foil

[wingnut]

Are you ready to die now in your car or when crossing the road? Or of a heart attack? Well I and my friends are not. Does anyone else remember The Good Life ? I especially liked one of the main characters. My name is Jerry and I too was sprinting up the corporate ladder. His wife's name was Margo and her signature line was "Well thank you very much Jerry". Armando's post brought it all back to me. A favourite example. "Well thank you very much Jerry, that's the last time I play the harlot for you". Paul Eddington who played me went on to become Jim Hacker of Yes Minister & Yes Prime Minister .

[arsenal]

"Paul Eddington who played me went on to become Jim Hacker of Yes Minister & Yes Prime Minister ."

And gave one of the greatest and sadly underrated comedy performances in TV history.

[christianpfc]

I stand corrected. I should have stated; "the worst global pandemic in our lifetime". Well, at least in most of our lifetimes. And I hope the last.
Even that does not hold true. There was and still is HIV which is global, and there was and still is Malaria, both killed many more, albeit over a longer time span, than Covid. Ways of infection are different than Covid, and Malaria is only a problem in the tropics, but from a medial point of view, these two are much worse than Covid.

[Dodger]

Even that does not hold true. There was and still is HIV which is global, and there was and still is Malaria, both killed many more, albeit over a longer time span, than Covid. Ways of infection are different than Covid, and Malaria is only a problem in the tropics, but from a medial point of view, these two are much worse than Covid.

Let me try this again: I should have worded this: "A really really bad pandemic that's got the whole planet fucked up".

Does that work?

[christianpfc]

The pandemic itself has negligible effects, overall like a flu. Most governments responses is that fucked up everything.

Under transmissible diseases, Covid ranks less than 5th lethal,
overall causes of death (other than old age) less then 10th lethal.

[Dodger]

The pandemic itself has negligible effects, overall like a flu. Most governments responses is that fucked up everything.

Under transmissible diseases, Covid ranks less than 5th lethal,
overall causes of death (other than old age) less then 10th lethal.

Your points are well taken, but even though covid ranks fifth in terms of being lethal, it has, by far, caused the most disruption to people's lives and thrown the world off its axis.

I don't believe any of the other high-ranking diseases resulted in international travel bans, regional lockouts, school closures, massive unemployment, hospitals/ICU's over-burdened, or, mandates like social-distancing, wearing of face masks, etc., that we are faced with today.

[goji]

Thailand seems perfectly happy to create an economic depression in major tourist areas like Pattaya and Phuket, just to stop a few hundred extra deaths amongst people who were already fragile.
Meanwhile they don't even go after the low hanging fruit with other causes of premature death, like road traffic accidents or air pollution. Very inconsistent.

[francois]

Thailand seems perfectly happy to create an economic depression in major tourist areas like Pattaya and Phuket, just to stop a few hundred extra deaths amongst people who were already fragile.
Meanwhile they don't even go after the low hanging fruit with other causes of premature death, like road traffic accidents or air pollution. Very inconsistent.

How can you make such a reprehensible statement? In the USA, alone, 471,000 deaths are a result of Covid; in the UK 114,000 deaths.
Just because you think someone is fragile is that a reason they should die?
Here is a link to obits on some people who died from Covid, all ages and races.
Try to understand that you are speaking of people's lives and strive to show some empathy rather than set yourself up as the Almighty.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/obituaries/people-died-coronavirus-obituaries.html

[Dodger]

Thailand seems perfectly happy to create an economic depression in major tourist areas like Pattaya and Phuket, just to stop a few hundred extra deaths amongst people who were already fragile.

According to my better-half Jai, there's been a significant increase in suicides in various parts of Thailand attributed mostly to financial depression. There's also been several recent cases of farang balcony-leapers just in Pattaya alone.

Sometimes I wonder if more people are perishing FROM Covid - or BECAUSE of covid.

[goji]

How can you make such a reprehensible statement?

You could simply try reading ALL of my statement.
Then think about it.

Then tell me why it would make sense for Thailand to do NOTHING of substance to stop the thousands of deaths from road traffic accidents, whilst creating an economic depression in the tourist industry to prevent the much lower impact of covid ?

[bkkguy]

Then tell me why it would make sense for Thailand to do NOTHING of substance to stop the thousands of deaths from road traffic accidents, whilst creating an economic depression in the tourist industry to prevent the much lower impact of covid ?

when you say "much lower impact of covid" you are making an unfair comparison - you are comparing road deaths when doing very little to control it to covid deaths while doing major efforts to control it

what would you accept as the best or worst case scenarios for covid deaths in Thailand if they had done nothing to control it, eg based on covid deaths in other countries of similar population or whatever other criteria you would like to use, and then we can discuss whether reducing that figure to 80 is a significant achievement even given the social and economic impacts, and are there not better ways of coping with these impacts and rethinking tourism goals without resorting to relaxing restrictions aimed at reducing covid spread and deaths?

while we are at it what do you think the economic and social impacts would be of reducing the road toll by a similar percentage, and how achievable do you think that as a goal for the government in the next 1, 2, 5, 10, 100 years?

every move the government has made on road deaths - helmets, seat-belts, drunk driving, etc - has failed for various reasons, and there seems to be very little interest in tackling the significant, and deeply ingrained, reasons for this, so I don't think this is really "low hanging fruit" unless you are implying a total reform of Thai society and its government and public services is an easy thing

and yes I readily accept the covid response has not been without its problems, and there seems to be very little interest in tackling the significant, and deeply ingrained, reasons for this, but I still think the government has been more successful in this than its other endevours

[StevieWonders]

I’ve always assumed the lockdowns were to prevent the hospital systems of various countries being completely overwhelmed by sick people. That they can prevent deaths is a helpful by-product but not a sufficient cause. Given the state of Thailand’s public health system the Thais have fallen in behind the example given not only by their current masters (Xi’s gang) but also their very successful (in the sense of managing the pandemic) Asian neighbours such as Taiwan, South Korea and Vietnam.

I don’t imagine there are too many people in the higher echelons of the Thai government who are weeping and wailing about the demise of a seaside brothel town whose name is a by-word for corruption, sleaze and depravity across the world.

[christianpfc]

Try to understand that you are speaking of people's lives and strive to show some empathy rather than set yourself up as the Almighty.
But you have to counterbalance saving some lives at the cost of ruining many other peoples' lives.


According to my better-half Jai, there's been a significant increase in suicides in various parts of Thailand attributed mostly to financial depression. There's also been several recent cases of farang balcony-leapers just in Pattaya alone.

Sometimes I wonder if more people are perishing FROM Covid - or BECAUSE of covid.
I estimate (based on news articles I read) that in Thailand 10 times more people died from suicide due to Covid-related problems (or rather problems due to lockdown and other government measures to fight the spread of Covid) than from Covid.


every move the government has made on road deaths - helmets, seat-belts, drunk driving, etc - has failed for various reasons, and there seems to be very little interest in tackling the significant, and deeply ingrained, reasons for this, so I don't think this is really "low hanging fruit" unless you are implying a total reform of Thai society and its government and public services is an easy thing
Vietnam has managed to enforce full (>99% when I last counted Mar 2020 in Saigon) helmet-wearing for motorcyclist. Thai government should look at the steps Vietnamese government has taken.

[Brad the Impala]

Wow what's the matter with some of you people in your "I'm alright Jack" bubbles!

Even if it were true, which it obviously isn't, that all 2 million people plus who are recorded of dying from Covid across the world would have "died within the next year or two anyway" you are ignoring the impact on health services across the world. These are overwhelmed by the patients suffering from Covid to the extent that for example in the UK the number of people waiting more than a year for sometimes urgent treatment has increased by more than 100 times just in the last year.

The impact on their lives and their families, caused by covid not by governments' response to it, is enormous.

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-01-14/record-45-million-on-hospital-waiting-lists-as-impact-of-covid-hits-home

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/31/nhs-months-return-normal-in-england-after-covid-chris-hopson?utm_term=97a2b21aca0b7c63d3ff2e9ec1e04da8&utm_campaign=GuardianTodayUK&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=GTUK_email

[wingnut]

I don’t imagine there are too many people in the higher echelons of the Thai government who are weeping and wailing about the demise of a seaside brothel town whose name is a by-word for corruption, sleaze and depravity across the world.Me too.

[cdnmatt]

I don’t imagine there are too many people in the higher echelons of the Thai government who are weeping and wailing about the demise of a seaside brothel town whose name is a by-word for corruption, sleaze and depravity across the world.


Of course not. They're way too busy being corrupt and depraved in a totally different (and much wealthier) manner.

I like how this thread devolved into another, "it's just the flu, big deal" conversation. Offically 2.4 million dead, but I think we can all agree that's low as no way every death got reported in that number. Let's even go low and say the true number including everyone in rural India and where ever is 5 fold, so now we're at 12 million dead.

And that's with all the lockdowns and an unprecadented "all hands on board" global response with the sole objective being to limit transmission so as to not overburden health care systems and cripple entire economies. Even with that massive and unprecedented response, this was the result. A good 12 million dead so far, hospitals the world over being forced to rent out long haul trucks to use as make shift morgues, and so on.
What do you think would have happened if we had no response at all, like some of you think we should have done? Just a good ole, "fuck it, we're not letting some virus stop us, it's balls to the wall boys, let's do this!" response? The deaths would have probably been 50 fold by now, some entire nation governments would have probably fallen, more civil unrest, maybe a surge in terrorism, et al.

Or I'm curious, what's the cutoff for you guys? How many dead people do we need before you believe it's worth doing something about? 50 million? 200 million? If the number who have died already isn't convincing enough, then there must be a magic number in your mind that would make you switch and think, "yeah, you know, maybe we should try to stop the transmission of this virus".

[StevieWonders]

We’ve certainly gone a long way in this thread from “Pattaya’s fucked” (me) to “edit: that's not what he said” (goji) by way of “let’s not follow the media and get hysterical” (wingnut, gerefan2). God help any Mod trying to split this thread up.

[Armando]

Thailand seems perfectly happy to create an economic depression in major tourist areas like Pattaya and Phuket, just to stop a few hundred extra deaths amongst people who were already fragile.
Meanwhile they don't even go after the low hanging fruit with other causes of premature death, like road traffic accidents or air pollution. Very inconsistent.
What a disgraceful statement!

[goji]

Let's turn this on its head then.
Do you really think Thailand is correct to let thousands of people, of all ages die on the roads and do nothing about it, whilst simultaneously creating an economic depression in parts of the country to protect against covid ?
Now if 20,000 die in road traffic accidents at an average age in the 30s, that's 800,000 years of lost life. That's every year.
Meanwhile, a few months ago in the UK, the data showed the median age of people in dying from covid was over 80. Thailand is likely to be losing more years of life from traffic accidents every year than the UK has lost in the pandemic.

Fixing most of the road traffic deaths could be done with no economic penalty. Yet they choose to ignore that and concentrate on covid, where the solution does have economic penalties.

[daydreamer]

How many dead people do we need before you believe it's worth doing something about? 50 million? 200 million? If the number who have died already isn't convincing enough, then there must be a magic number in your mind that would make you switch and think, "yeah, you know, maybe we should try to stop the transmission of this virus".


The millions that have died worldwide would be a drop in the bucket if strong measures had not been taken around the world. Anyone having family or friends that has died certainly will agree with the lockdowns and quarantines.

Take a look at this 30 second TV ad made by the Florida Dept of Transportation concerning deaths on the roads. It may change your perspective on how many deaths are acceptable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzz0C96Eav0

[StevieWonders]

Let's turn this on its head then.
Do you really think Thailand is correct to let thousands of people, of all ages die on the roads and do nothing about it, whilst simultaneously creating an economic depression in parts of the country to protect against covid ?
Now if 20,000 die in road traffic accidents at an average age in the 30s, that's 800,000 years of lost life. That's every year.
Meanwhile, a few months ago in the UK, the data showed the median age of people in dying from covid was over 80. Thailand is likely to be losing more years of life from traffic accidents every year than the UK has lost in the pandemic.

Fixing most of the road traffic deaths could be done with no economic penalty. Yet they choose to ignore that and concentrate on covid, where the solution does have economic penalties.
That’s the sort of “false equivalence” that the anti-democratic troll factories employ when arguing for isolated atypical examples in the West make the Western democracies the equivalent of the corrupt authoritarian ones. Changing the habits of a lifetime won’t happen overnight. Lockdowns will.

[cdnmatt]

Let's turn this on its head then.
Do you really think Thailand is correct to let thousands of people, of all ages die on the roads and do nothing about it, whilst simultaneously creating an economic depression in parts of the country to protect against covid ?
Now if 20,000 die in road traffic accidents at an average age in the 30s, that's 800,000 years of lost life. That's every year.
Meanwhile, a few months ago in the UK, the data showed the median age of people in dying from covid was over 80. Thailand is likely to be losing more years of life from traffic accidents every year than the UK has lost in the pandemic.

Fixing most of the road traffic deaths could be done with no economic penalty. Yet they choose to ignore that and concentrate on covid, where the solution does have economic penalties.
I know. What's the point of investigating homicides when people die of diabetes all the time?

That makes pretty close to as much sense as what you just said.

[goji]

I know. What's the point of investigating homicides when people die of diabetes all the time?


That's not analogous to my comments.
Although such twisted comparisons are to be expected on a board riddled with trolls.

My comment is referring to extreme control measures for one cause of premature death with almost no effort at all with others.
Thailand would get fewer deaths and less suffering from mass unemployment in the tourism sector if they had more balance. Dial back the control for covid and try some basic proven measures to reduce traffic accidents.

Nowhere do I suggest no controls at all.

[StevieWonders]

Although such twisted comparisons are to be expected on a board riddled with trolls.Ah yes, the traditional ad hominem defence.

[Dodger]

Fixing most of the road traffic deaths could be done with no economic penalty. Yet they choose to ignore that and concentrate on covid, where the solution does have economic penalties.

I agree, but unfortunately, that's just one of the uncontrollable realities in LaLa Land.

With 1% of the population in Thailand controlling >60% of the wealth, it would defy logic to think The Powers would make any major decisions impacting money-flow without having first considered the potential impact these changes could have on their own financial holdings. For those who are not aware; the 1% who control Thailand's wealth is comprised mostly of Chinese business investors, the Generals, the person (and family) we can't talk about, and toss in a few movie stars and well-connected drag queens.

To your point, road accidents are the leading cause of deaths in Thailand, and the initiatives they've taken to address this so far have been superficial at best, rendering no lasting improvements. The only significant decrease in road fatalities we saw in 2020 was credited to the fact that Songkran 2020 was canceled, not the result of any safe driving initiatives and/or heightened policing activities.

This is why I think the question you're asking is so valid: How can Thailand react so effectively in mandating controls to contain the virus, and at the same time, exhibit no abilities whatsoever in improving road safety? It almost defies logic until you consider the underlying motives behind all Thai initiates, and that's $$$. Plain and simple. I really hate putting it this way, but people losing their lives in road accidents isn't costing them (the 1%) anything - but the money they (the 1%) could lose if this pandemic isn't corralled is enormous. That's just how the wheels spin in LaLa Land.

If strict controls were not in place to contain the virus, the ultra wealthy would be poised to lose billions (if not trillions) of baht in the businesses they own and/or have invested in, including some of the most lucrative businesses involving joint ventures with the Chinese (and others) - many of which are owned by none-other-than the Thai Army. Yes, the hospitals could very likely become overwhelmed as well which is a real concern, but I really don't think that's what keeps them up at night. Like all things in LaLa Land, It's all about the $$$.

I appreciate the tight controls they have in place to contain the pandemic. No argument from me there. But I find it interesting that the corrupt underpinnings of a country like this, with the largest divide between the rich and the poor of any other country in the world, with one of the worst road safety records in the world, can, at the same time, have one of the best records in the world for responding to the pandemic. A lot of World Records here.

Personally...just taking a minute to think about my own ass; It wouldn't do me a bit of good if an impaired reckless driver ran head-on into my vehicle killing me...even if the idiot was wearing a face mask.

Bottom line: Great job handling covid, but it would sure be a nice touch if they could actually start enforcing the driving laws and making the roads safer as well.

Completely off topic:

Jai and I were watching a video on the news last night showing 4 police officers chasing a drug smuggler on foot. It was hilarious. The officers uniforms were so tight-fitting and heavily starched that they literally couldn't run. One of the officers started to climb over a fence during the pursuit and just stopped halfway up. I said to Jai "why in the hell is he stopping", and Jai said "because he doesn't want to get his uniform dirty". Jai wasn't joking. He was being dead-serious. Just too funny!

[cdnmatt]

Nowhere do I suggest no controls at all.


Your argument is still stupid and heartless. Head over to your local ICU unit, and as people die just let their families know, "it's ok, people die from traffic accidents all the time".

[StevieWonders]

Absolutely right Dodger and as I said goji is simply applying the equivalence fallacy - in this case that Thailand is equivalent to anywhere else. The whole country operates on the Big Man patronage model, and road safety isn’t something that matters to Big Men - they have motorcades, even for generals’ wives to go shopping.

[gerefan2]

If strict controls were not in place to contain the virus, the ultra wealthy would be poised to lose billions (if not trillions) of baht in the businesses they own and/or have invested in, including some of the most lucrative businesses involving joint ventures with the Chinese

But aren’t they also involved in tourism, hotels, alcohol sales, prostitution and all the other niceties of Thailand?!

If not, then they are surely not keeping their fingers on the pulse and missing out on 20% GDP.

[StevieWonders]

But aren’t they also involved in tourism, hotels, alcohol sales, prostitution and all the other niceties of Thailand?!

If not, then they are surely not keeping their fingers on the pulse and missing out on 20% GDP.Low level activities are kept at the local level. The higher levels are far more interested in infrastructure contracts and arms contracts for example - the kickbacks there are where the serious money is to be made

[goji]

Clearly I'm too idealistic in thinking that the government ought to give equal consideration to preventing deaths from all causes, rather than focussing on one cause and ignoring others.


Then since other members are suggesting only stuff which harms the 1% influences policy, are you expecting covid restrictions to be relaxed just as soon as the 1% are vaccinated ?

Then what's the explanation for ignoring air pollution ? Are the "1%" too thick to realize that it's killing them too ? Or do they try to live as much of their lives as possible breathing filtered air ?

[christianpfc]

I like how this thread devolved into another, "it's just the flu, big deal" conversation. Offically 2.4 million dead, but I think we can all agree that's low as no way every death got reported in that number. Let's even go low and say the true number including everyone in rural India and where ever is 5 fold, so now we're at 12 million dead.
The opposite is true! Every person who had Covid when he/she died is filed as "death of Covid" when it should be just "death with Covid". The real number of death of Covid is much lower than 2.4 mio.

Death of/with Covid is statistical noise compared to other cases of death.

There might even be an effect that once Covid is under control, fewer people die because the vulnerable died of/with Covid.

There might another effect of lockdown: Covid-babies! A baby boom caused by couples in lockdown having more sex?
-----
Looking at Myanmar (54 m population), there are 3188 cumulated Covid death today. Adjusting this to Thailand (69 m population) that corresponds to 4100. But millions of people employed in tourism industry can't work for a year, and millions of Western tourists can't take a holiday for a year!

[cdnmatt]

Looking at Myanmar (54 m population), there are 3188 cumulated Covid death today. Adjusting this to Thailand (69 m population) that corresponds to 4100. But millions of people employed in tourism industry can't work for a year, and millions of Western tourists can't take a holiday for a year!

Skipping the "how many people died" thing, as that's just a circular argument...

Your other argument is absolutely retarded. Your argument is that Thailand only had a few thousand deaths after locking down, so they should have never locked down in the first place? You know full well what would have happened in Thailand if they didn't lockdown in the way they did. All you have to do is look to other countries such as the US to see what would have happened in Thailand without a lockdown.

You can't argue that because the lockdown worked and kept fatalities low, they should have never had a lockdown. That doesn't make any sense. Right, fatalities stayed low in Thailand, and great for them. That was the whole point of the lockdown. Take that away, and as evidenced in countries all over the world, they would have probably ended up with around 1000+ dead per-day. You can't use Mynammar's low mortality rate as a reference, and if anything that just helps validate my argument that the official death count is low. It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to realize Manammar didn't exactly keep track, nor has a solid testing infrastructure in place.

So back to my original question. What's the death toll have to be for yo

[StevieWonders]

Clearly I'm too idealistic in thinking that the government ought to give equal consideration to preventing deaths from all causes, rather than focussing on one cause and ignoring others.


Then since other members are suggesting only stuff which harms the 1% influences policy, are you expecting covid restrictions to be relaxed just as soon as the 1% are vaccinated ?

Then what's the explanation for ignoring air pollution ? Are the "1%" too thick to realize that it's killing them too ? Or do they try to live as much of their lives as possible breathing filtered air ?It’s always good to start the day with a laugh. Thailand is a country with policies that get carried out? Think the mafia families of New York and you’ll start to get the picture of how things work most of the time in Thailand. It’s “what’s in it for me?” written very, very, very large

[Dodger]

But aren’t they also involved in tourism, hotels, alcohol sales, prostitution and all the other niceties of Thailand?!

If not, then they are surely not keeping their fingers on the pulse and missing out on 20% GDP.

Thailand's focus is on the EEC Project (Eastern Economic Corridor) where all the big investments are being made now. Tourism, which contributed to around 12% of Thailand's GDP before the pandemic, has now dwindled to probably less than 2% (I'm guessing), which doesn't appear to be as important to the Powers here as Thailand's Tourist Authority (TaT) would lead some to believe. As StevieWonders correctly pointed out, they're not going to risk the BIG MONEY on a low-level market segment that's contributing so little to the GDP.

What is EEC?

The EEC Project involves building a high-speed rail system linking the 2 international airports in Bangkok to Utapao Airport in Rayong, to provide rapid transport to the eastern seaboard - where new high tech manufacturing plants and global distribution centers will one day be located. The EEC development stretches from Naklua in the North to Rayong in the South (and includes Pattaya). It's becoming clear that Pattaya wants to have a more diverse economy going forward - and not just focused on "sex tourism", with plans to build a city monorail, a hi-speed regional train service, a skywalk, a cruise ship terminal, a film center and wholesale reclamation improvements to beach areas. (good luck)

Thailand's strategy (that word kills me here) appears to be aligned with attracting more international business travelers and a more diverse and higher spending tourist-base in general. Traveling internationally is going to be more expensive in the future making it unaffordable to some, and having fewer tourists who spend more apparently makes sense to them.

Reportedly, over 80% of the 3.5 trillion baht needed to support the EEC expansion is coming from private international investors. Having a country which is close to "covid-free" is very attractive to investors right now. Conversely, if Thailand took a less disciplined approach to handing the virus, like so many other countries have, their odds of attracting these types of investments during this pandemic would be about "zero".

Rarely do I find myself agreeing with the direction Thailand moves when it comes to any kind of strategic initiative - but this is an exception. From a business perspective, what they're doing appears to be right on target.

It only makes sense that the businesses you mentioned, i.e., bars, hotels, prostitution, etc., will have to change to fit the needs of a more diverse tourist-base in the future. With the economy in shatters, and EEC completion years away, there's no doubt that these businesses will continue to struggle just to survive. Many won't...more will close...new ones will appear. The estimated 300,000 prostitutes in Thailand will undoubtedly have to adapt to these changes as well.

[goji]

The EEC Project involves building a high-speed rail system linking the 2 international airports in Bangkok to Utapao Airport in Rayong, to provide rapid transport to the eastern seaboard - where new high tech manufacturing plants and global distribution centers will one day be located. The EEC development stretches from Naklua in the North to Rayong in the South (and includes Pattaya).


The EEC project will involve pouring vast amounts of concrete to prop up the construction and concrete manufacturing industries. Providing an efficient and affordable transport service with good connectivity at the nodes will not be a priority.
Or that's how the experience from the Bangkok system is. Fares are high for a developing country, the interchanges are badly designed with excessively long walks, they put on too few carriages and don't even have common payment cards.
How it should be done could easily be figured out by anyone who has used a decent public transport system.

But the objective of selling fast amounts of concrete is met. Just look at the example of Makkasan station. About 10x the size it needs to be and constructed too far from the local MRT station, with a massive detour on the walkway.

[goji]

Your other argument is absolutely retarded. Your argument is that Thailand only had a few thousand deaths after locking down, so they should have never locked down in the first place? You know full well what would have happened in Thailand if they didn't lockdown in the way they did. All you have to do is look to other countries such as the US to see what would have happened in Thailand without a lockdown.


Such rudeness is unnecessary and does not strengthen a poor argument, which fails to consider all the factors influencing covid infection.
Recent evidence shows Thailand can contain outbreaks, without full lockdowns.

[cdnmatt]

Such rudeness is unnecessary

Well, there was someone on the internet who was wrong. How am I expected to react?

[StevieWonders]

The EEC project will involve pouring vast amounts of concrete to prop up the construction and concrete manufacturing industries. Providing an efficient and affordable transport service with good connectivity at the nodes will not be a priority.
Or that's how the experience from the Bangkok system is. Fares are high for a developing country, the interchanges are badly designed with excessively long walks, they put on too few carriages and don't even have common payment cards.
How it should be done could easily be figured out by anyone who has used a decent public transport system.

But the objective of selling fast amounts of concrete is met. Just look at the example of Makkasan station. About 10x the size it needs to be and constructed too far from the local MRT station, with a massive detour on the walkway.All of that is completely beside the point. The EEC project has and will involve paying vast amounts of money in the form of kickbacks by potential tenderers and suppliers of materials and expertise to those empowered to grant the tenders.

[StevieWonders]

goji’s interest in improved road safety has apparently reached the very top. In line with world’s best practice for preventing vehicle accidents, from February 19 all driving licence applicants and renewals, as well as those purchasing a vehicle, must supply a medical certificate in order to prove they do not have any underlying health conditions which may impair their ability to drive.

Howzat, goji!? Another example of that fundamental principle of Thai business life - rent-seeking.

[wingnut]

goji’s interest in improved road safety has apparently reached the very top. In line with world’s best practice for preventing vehicle accidents, from February 19 all driving licence applicants and renewals, as well as those purchasing a vehicle, must supply a medical certificate in order to prove they do not have any underlying health conditions which may impair their ability to drive.

Howzat, goji!? Another example of that fundamental principle of Thai business life - rent-seeking.Is this a punishment? If old and sick they should have caught COVID and died, and Thailand could stay open?

[StevieWonders]

Is this a punishment? If old and sick they should have caught COVID and died, and Thailand could stay open?Perhaps you’re right, wingnut, goji certainly believes that any shutdown is mistaken as the only people who would die are the elderly decrepit. It’s the Swedish model - but Swedish boys are more expensive than Thai or Khmer.

[goji]

I merely believe it's ludicrous to cause severe suffering in preventing one cause of slightly premature death, whilst simultaneously doing nothing about other causes of very premature death (eg road accidents and pollution) Inconsistent policy.

However, it seems nothing will prevent the high frequency trolls slowly driving all the objective analysis away from this board.

[cdnmatt]

I merely believe it's ludicrous to cause severe suffering in preventing one cause of slightly premature death, whilst simultaneously doing nothing about other causes of very premature death (eg road accidents and pollution) Inconsistent policy.

However, it seems nothing will prevent the high frequency trolls slowly driving all the objective analysis away from this board.

You're leaving out the fact that I can pretty much guarantee that everyone reading this board who's been to Thailand a decent number of times has wound up in a traffic check point at least a few times.

You act as if the government / police aren't doing anything whatsoever to curb traffic accidents, when in reality, there's traffic check points all over the place all the time. You've never hit one before, or something? For speeding, or not wearing a helmet, or anything?

As for pollution et al, so what? Since we're not doing enough to combat climate change, we shouldn't bother trying to slow transmission of KoVid? Really? Besides, these lockdowns have done wonders to cut down on pollution.

[mr giggles]

Don't fret, either Pattaya will return or there will be new Pattaya's opening up in the future.

Pattaya is such a shite-hole, the best thing would be to bulldoze it, salt the earth and set up a sea-side resort down the road. :eek:

Happy Valentine's- hope you received my exploding hamper :devilsh:

[StevieWonders]

I merely believe it's ludicrous to cause severe suffering in preventing one cause of slightly premature death, whilst simultaneously doing nothing about other causes of very premature death (eg road accidents and pollution) Inconsistent policy.Let me guess - your boyhood hero was Captain Oates.

[francois]

I merely believe it's ludicrous to cause severe suffering in preventing one cause of slightly premature death, whilst simultaneously doing nothing about other causes of very premature death (eg road accidents and pollution) Inconsistent policy.

However, it seems nothing will prevent the high frequency trolls slowly driving all the objective analysis away from this board.


You are including yourself amongst the trolls?

[Brad the Impala]

However, it seems nothing will prevent the high frequency trolls slowly driving all the objective analysis away from this board.

One man's "objective" is another man's "blinkered" or "ignorant" when it is just statements of unsubstantiated "opinion".

[Dodger]

......Besides, these lockdowns have done wonders to cut down on pollution.

Air is cleaner...water is cleaner...and driving is safer, because the economy has collapsed...businesses are down...fewer vehicles are on the road, and there are no tourists here (with the exception of gogi and gerefan2).

This last lockdown was caused by influential Thais smuggling immigrant laborers across the border from Myanmar, and Thais with similar influence operating illegal gambling casinos in Chonburi Province... not because the average citizens over here weren't following covid safety practices.

These "Influential Thais" can be credited for causing the lockdown - but certainly not for improving the environment.

[StevieWonders]

One man's "objective" is another man's "blinkered" or "ignorant" when it is just statements of unsubstantiated "opinion".”I’m being objective” is a form of a Russell Conjugation.

[StevieWonders]

Air pollution in Thailand is dependent on where you are. Here’s Bangkok’s stats for today and looking back -

10760

[cdnmatt]

I'm assuming it's dropped quite dramatically?

I know when the lockdowns first started happening after a couple months there were reports all over the place of cleaner air and water ways. Wild animals like coyotes and moose even started wandering around the city streets, wondering where everyone went. :)

[StevieWonders]

I'm assuming it's dropped quite dramatically?

I know when the lockdowns first started happening after a couple months there were reports all over the place of cleaner air and water ways. Wild animals like coyotes and moose even started wandering around the city streets, wondering where everyone went. :)I’d have to say there haven’t been any reports of coyote or moose in Bangkok recently

[Dodger]

I'm assuming it's dropped quite dramatically?

I know when the lockdowns first started happening after a couple months there were reports all over the place of cleaner air and water ways. Wild animals like coyotes and moose even started wandering around the city streets, wondering where everyone went. :)

Funny you should say that, because I read somewhere last year that due to improvements in the environment resulting from fewer tourists visiting the National Parks (there's over 300), that the government has been petitioned to start closing these parks to the general public every year for 30 days just for the purpose of sustaining these improvements. The Parks reported measurable improvements in the overall eco system, e.g., wildlife flourishing, healthier wildlife, cleaner air and water, more lush vegetation for feeding and habitats, etc.

[christianpfc]

...fewer tourists visiting the National Parks (there's over 300), that the government has been petitioned to start closing these parks to the general public every year for 30 days just for the purpose of sustaining these improvements.
There are 127 National Parks in Thailand. https://www.thainationalparks.com/
Many of them are closed during rainy season anyway, but that's those in forest/mountain where it would be impractical and dangerous to allow visitor during rainy season. Those that need recovery are the marine national parks popular with tourists.

[Dodger]

There are 127 National Parks in Thailand. https://www.thainationalparks.com/
Many of them are closed during rainy season anyway, but that's those in forest/mountain where it would be impractical and dangerous to allow visitor during rainy season. Those that need recovery are the marine national parks popular with tourists.

The plan involving environmental sustainment first proposed last year was expanded to include wildlife sanctuaries, national forests, and marine parks as well, which, including all the national parks, totals somewhere around 300.

Most national parks remained open all year before covid. Many, including myself, actually prefer camping during rainy season because of the increase in water levels,,,more spectacular waterfalls...better kyacking, etc. Many parks are apparently still closed, or partially closed, due to covid restrictions.

Closing ALL parks and sanctuaries for a month or two each year to let the eco-systems rebalance is a good idea.

See Post article below:

https://www.bangkokpost.com/travel/1917868/national-parks-to-close-every-year