23 died in Norway after vaccination by Pfizer

[Moses]

https://legemiddelverket.no/nyheter/meldte-bivirkninger-etter-koronavaksine-pr-14-januar-2021

Translation by Google:


Reported side effects after coronary vaccine per. January 14, 2021
23 deaths have been reported in connection with vaccination. So far, 13 of these have been assessed. Common side effects may have contributed to a severe course in frail elderly people... may have led to deaths.

Note: total amount of vaccinated in Norway at Jan 12 was 25000.

[StevieWonders]

The Norwegian Medicines Agency linked 13 deaths to the corona vaccine’s side effects. Those who died had two things in common – they were old and frail.

A total of 23 deaths have been reported in connection with the corona vaccination.

So far, 13 of these have been assessed.
“The reports might indicate that common side effects from mRNA vaccines, such as fever and nausea, may have led to deaths in some frail patients,” chief physician Sigurd Hortemo in the Norwegian Medicines Agency noted.

https://norwaytoday.info/news/norwegian-medicines-agency-links-13-deaths-to-vaccine-side-effects-those-who-died-were-frail-and-old/

Given that Phase 3 tests would have excluded the frail elderly this is a hardly surprising outcome.

[goji]

https://legemiddelverket.no/nyheter/meldte-bivirkninger-etter-koronavaksine-pr-14-januar-2021

Translation by Google:



Note: total amount of vaccinated in Norway at Jan 12 was 25000.

A few questions arise:
1 Is that a reliable source ? Bear in mind, the anti-vaxxers are like some crazed cult.
2 What would the normal winter death rate be for the older and fragile people at the top of the queue for the vaccine ?
3 How will the death rate compare for vaccinated and non-vaccinated people over an extended period? Bearing in mind that no one will accept lockdown for all of 2021. So hundreds of them might die with no vaccine and no lockdown.
I suspect the stats would support the vaccine.

I would take any covid vaccine that's been through proper double blind trials with published results.

[StevieWonders]

I can thoroughly recommend this podcast to all who have an interest in COVID-19 vaccines:

Risky Talk: communicating about vaccines

[cdnmatt]

A few questions arise:
1 Is that a reliable source ? Bear in mind, the anti-vaxxers are like some crazed cult.



Seems to be a possibility... Google something like "Noray 23 die Pfizer vaccine", and you don't get much. You get a few hits like:

Pledge Times - The Path to Enlightenment -- https://pledgetimes.com/over-20-pfizer-vaccines-died-in-norway/

Some obscure Islamic news site (hosted on a .news domain) -- https://see.news/norway-23-dead-after-receiving-pfizer-biontech-vaccine/

Union - News of Ukraine (hosted on a .info domain) -- https://www.unian.info/world/covid-19-over-20-people-vaccinated-with-pfizer-vaccine-die-in-norway-11285645.html

Then there's eg24.news. -- https://www.eg24.news/2021/01/norway-23-people-who-were-vaccinated-with-the-us-pfizer-vaccine-died.html

And that's literally all you get for hits, aside from some people's Twitter handles and the like. Not exactly high on the respected meter.

[Moses]

So far Corona kills around 1 of 110 in Norway, Pfizer 1 of 1000.

[cdnmatt]

So far Corona kills around 1 of 110 in Norway, Pfizer 1 of 1000.


If that was actually true, I'm guessing it would have made bigger news than an article in "Pledge - Path to Enlightenment" and on al-Shamimi Habab's .news web site.

[dinagam]

So far Corona kills around 1 of 110 in Norway, Pfizer 1 of 1000.

I hope those who died from taking Pfizer did not suffer from a massive erection. That would be an embarrassing rigor mortis.

[Moses]

If that was actually true, I'm guessing it would have made bigger news than an article in "Pledge - Path to Enlightenment" and on al-Shamimi Habab's .news web site.

Just google "Det er meldt om 23 dødsfall i forbindelse med vaksinasjon" - Norwegian press and TV already discussing that widely today.

It is news from Jan 14 and published to late to be reprinted. Wait for today, but I doubt you will find it in global news - they are happy to publish news about "COVID crisis" in China with 30 new sick persons and shut their mouth about 1500+ daily died in UK or 4000+ in USA.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202101/1212915.shtml

Chinese health experts called on Norway and other countries to suspend the use of mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines produced by companies such as Pfizer, especially among elderly people, due to the vaccines' safety uncertainties following the deaths of 23 elderly Norwegian people who received the vaccine.

Pfizer loose "trade war" in Asia and in Latin America week ago and started to publish gossips about SinoVac... now Pfizer got "reaction"... marketing and PR... I'm sure - news from Norway is true and now Pfizer is busy in distributing cash or promising some future support and deals just for to shut up medias...

[cdnmatt]

It is news from Jan 14 and published to late to be reprinted. Wait for today, but I doubt you will find it in global news - they are happy to publish news about "COVID crisis" in China with 30 new sick persons and shut their mouth about 1500+ daily died in UK or 4000+ in USA.

Obviously, I take it you don't watch much Western news. All they do is cover KoVid-19, the daily death toll, number of sick, economic impact, vaccine rollout, how horrible of a job Trump has done handling it, etc.

Hell, two people in the UK got a little sick from the Pfizer vaccine, and the next day we all knew about it. Same as when a couple medical workers in Alaska also got sick.



https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202101/1212915.shtml

That's the equivalent of listening to Fox News in the US/. Can't you find an actual reputable news source for this claim? Reuters, AP, CNN, al_jazeera, BBC, CBC, someone....

I'll wait for it to show up somewhere reputable, and until then, will take it with a grain of salt.

[Brad the Impala]

It is news from Jan 14 and published to late to be reprinted. Wait for today, but I doubt you will find it in global news - they are happy to publish news about "COVID crisis" in China with 30 new sick persons and shut their mouth about 1500+ daily died in UK or 4000+ in USA.

[

I don’t know what you are reading but the daily death toll in UK and US is headlines every day in most news sources. Far from “shut their mouth”. You seem to be on a bit of an anti western crusade!

[goji]

Norway has 23 deaths out of 25,000

Then, who are they vaccinating ? If it is over 80s, I guess the annual death rate would be over 10%, so 2500 per year. That's 48 per week.

Even if my assumptions are a little out, we can dial them back a long way before 23 deaths looks seriously abnormal.

It's always important to consider the "base rate". In this case, what range of death rates can be expected without the vaccine ?

[StevieWonders]

Bloomberg are now reporting this story, with updated figures -

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-16/norway-vaccine-fatalities-among-people-75-and-older-rise-to-29

[cdnmatt]

Ok, they're all 75+ years old, and all have existing "serious basic disorders", so...

29 dead out of 42,000 = 0.0694% fatality rate, and that's if 75% years old with serious pre-existing condition.

That sounds a little more realistic than, "OMG, Pfizer vaccine is killing 1 out of every 1000 Norwegians" as Moses purported.

[Moses]

Ok, they're all 75+ years old, and all have existing "serious basic disorders", so...

29 dead out of 42,000 = 0.0694% fatality rate, and that's if 75% years old with serious pre-existing condition.

That sounds a little more realistic than, "OMG, Pfizer vaccine is killing 1 out of every 1000 Norwegians" as Moses purported.

It is even less than 1 of 1000, because at day of original publication Norway had 25000 vaccinated, not 42000. So 29 out of 25000 = 1 of 862

About "more realistic rate 0.0694%": by fact it is 0.069%. If you will immunize US with such fatality rate, you will kill 226,485 if US has the same ratio of people over 75 in population.

[cdnmatt]

If you will immunize US with such fatality rate, you will kill 226,485

You're either being intentionally malicious, or you're not very good at math.

Besides, you think the Pfizer vaccine contains dead monkeys, so whatever...

[goji]

If you will immunize US with such fatality rate, you will kill 226,485 if US has the same ratio of people over 75 in population.

Kill is the wrong word here.
The first thing we need to do is work out how many of the Norwegian sample would have died anyway, vaccine or no vaccine. If we take 25,000 people over 80, quite a few of them can be expected to die each day even in normal circumstances.

So are there excess deaths after the vaccine ?

If do, then calculate their risk of death over the next 12 months, including the effect of covid. At this point, I imagine the vaccine would be beneficial for almost all, except the very frail.

[Moses]

Kill is the wrong word here.
The first thing we need to do is work out how many of the Norwegian sample would have died anyway, vaccine or no vaccine. If we take 25,000 people over 80, quite a few of them can be expected to die each day even in normal circumstances.

There are clearly stated in news: 23 died and 13 "events" for sure are linked to vaccination, rest are under investigation.

[StevieWonders]

Kill is the wrong word here.
The first thing we need to do is work out how many of the Norwegian sample would have died anyway, vaccine or no vaccine. If we take 25,000 people over 80, quite a few of them can be expected to die each day even in normal circumstances.
When examining anything at all where both X and Y are present, the first thing to remember is that co-incidence does not equal causation.

[Uranus]

All these deaths happened in nursing homes for the frail and elderly. And as of last week all residents of nursing homes across the country were injected with the first jab of the Pfizer vaccine. In a normal week there are 400 deaths nationwide in nursing homes.

[Moses]

When examining anything at all where both X and Y are present, the first thing to remember is that co-incidence does not equal causation.

Yes, and for such cases is normal using of word "after". Event B was after event A. "After" does not means "because".

But there is word "linked to" in news and this word means exactly "because of". So in this case causation exists. Link, you know.

[StevieWonders]

In what will be disappointing news for some, health authorities in Norway have sought to allay safety concerns raised by the death of some elderly patients after they were vaccinated against Covid-19, saying there’s no evidence of a direct link.

In Norway, 33 people aged 75 and over died following immunization, according to the agency’s latest figures. All were already seriously ill, it said. The Scandinavian country has already inoculated almost all of its nursing home population, with more than 48,000 people vaccinated as of Monday afternoon.

The reported fatalities are well under 1 out of 1,000 nursing-home patients to be vaccinated, he said. The side effects of immunization can, in some cases, “tip the patients into a more serious course of the underlying disease,” Madsen said. “We can’t rule that out.”

“It is important to remember that about 45 people die every day in nursing homes in Norway, so it is not a given that this represents any excess mortality or that there is a causal connection,” Camilla Stoltenberg, head of the Norwegian Institute of Public Health, said at a press conference on Monday.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-18/norway-finds-no-direct-link-between-elderly-deaths-and-vaccine

[cdnmatt]

I don't care what Bloomberg said. I'm going with what the Path to Enlightenment and what Al-Shamimi Habab said on their web sites. I only care about the real facts, not this fake news CNN shit.

I'm sure it was the dead monkeys in the Pfizer vaccine that's killing all the old people.

[StevieWonders]

I don't care what Bloomberg said. I'm going with what the Path to Enlightenment and what Al-Shamimi Habab said on their web sites. I only care about the real facts, not this fake news CNN shit.
Is that the same as the Shimmy Shimmy Shake?

[goji]

“It is important to remember that about 45 people die every day in nursing homes in Norway, so it is not a given that this represents any excess mortality or that there is a causal connection,” Camilla Stoltenberg, head of the Norwegian Institute of Public Health, said at a press conference on Monday.

Exactly. Anyone with common sense should only consider excess mortality, if there is any.

[latintopxxx]

...so this is a story about nothing...

[StevieWonders]

...so this is a story about nothing...If you think that you have missed the point completely.

[Moses]

...so this is a story about nothing...

Hehe... look at this thread. And how news appears. 2 days (!!!) after accidents only small medias were published story. Matt here was "I don't believe". On third day just few medias of first range published this news. Pfizer was extremally busy in distributing cash for to turn fire down. Finally they pushed Norway to publish "no direct link" news and at this moment all first range news started to reprint "NO DIRECT LINK!" at next one hour.

Well down 1:1000 is 1 from 1454... if ratio will be the same in US then there will be 225,722 killed by Pfizer... good luck!

[cdnmatt]

Ahhh, so naturally because it's not what you want to hear, it must be a conspiracy and coverup...

Got it.

[Moses]

If that was actually true, I'm guessing it would have made bigger news than an article in "Pledge - Path to Enlightenment" and on al-Shamimi Habab's .news web site.



Ahhh, so naturally because it's not what you want to hear, it must be a conspiracy and coverup...

Got it.

you wrote, you answer... I just have to place quotes together

[Moses]

Today Le Monde (translation by Google)
Norwegian medicines agency, announced on January 15 that it had recorded "23 deaths associated with vaccination against Covid-19", of which 13 have been the subject of an in-depth assessment. According to the agency's chief medical officer, Sigurd Hortemo, "reports suggest that the usual side effects of messenger RNA vaccines, such as fever and nausea, may have contributed to the deaths of some fragile patients."

Words of person who is responsible for vaccination and its results. But you may continue to chant "no-no-no-it-isn't-possible" and "everything-is-ok".

[Moses]

https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2021/01/16/vaccins-ce-que-disent-les-documents-voles-a-l-agence-europeenne-des-medicaments_6066502_3244.html

European Agency was pushed to approve Pfizer - leaks of internal documents:

in an exchange with the Danish Medicines Agency, the same official said he was surprised that Ursula von der Leyen, President of the European Commission, had "clearly identified the two vaccines that could be approved before the end of the year [Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna] . There are still problems with both, ”said the agent.

Next is about Pfizer:

We thus discover that in November the European agency formulated three “major objections” to this vaccine: certain manufacturing sites had not yet been inspected; data on commercial vaccine lots was still missing; more importantly, the available data revealed qualitative differences between the commercial batches and those used during clinical trials. It is on this last point that the evaluators seem most concerned.


The vaccines used in clinical trials had between 69% and 81% “intact” RNA, that is, the entire sequence used to make the Spike protein. On the other hand, data on the batches produced in these new production lines revealed lower percentages, 59% on average. Some lots even went down to 51% and 52%.

[dinagam]

Pfizer is at risk of falling behind the Chinese and Russian vaccines.