Time to Look Elsewhere

[Manforallseasons]

If I were not already living in Thailand and I was planning a trip here I would be looking at other options. All things considered I don’t see any realistic way Americans or Brits will be allowed to enter the kingdom in the foreseeable future as the Covid crisis still is a threat and the Thai government is certainly not in a hurry to welcome visitors from these countries.

[a447]

....I would be looking at other options.

Where would you suggest as alternative destinations to Thailand for those interested in Asian guys?

[Manforallseasons]

Where would you suggest as alternative destinations to Thailand for those interested in Asian guys?
If I were a dedicated “rice queen” I would be looking at Myanmar. A close friend who owned a bar/restaurant in Pattaya has been going to Yangon and has zero interest in ever returning to Thailand and I will be traveling there as soon as possible.

[a447]

If I were a dedicated “rice queen” I would be looking at Myanmar. A close friend who owned a bar/restaurant in Pattaya has been going to Yangon and has zero interest in ever returning to Thailand and I will be traveling there as soon as possible.

I think Christian found some action in Myanmar. I didn't find anything obvious there - and apart from going to a supposedly "gay" cafe, I didn't really look that hard.

Any report would be welcome.

[goji]

Yangon has some interesting massage venues, usually found by surfing on Blued or Grindr. Some effort is required.

Hotels are worse value for money than Thailand, but pretty much all other expenses tend to be lower than in Thailand.
The public transport in Yangon is quite good, but again it takes some effort to figure it out first.

[Dodger]

Myanmar has the same restrictions on international flights that Thailand does, including the 14 day isolation mandate. That, coupled with the fact that Thailand still has the largest availability of male sex workers and gay venues in SE Asia, or, for that fact, the world, will probably force those farang who are stranded back in the home countries to remain patient.

Looking for greener pastures? Look no further, because if you are here now, you are sitting in the greenest pasture on the planet.

[Manforallseasons]

[QUOTE=Dodger;267895] Looking for greener pastures? Look no further, because if you are here now, you are sitting in the greenest pasture on the planet.

Such is true for me and you but not for most of the members here!

[goji]

Looking for greener pastures? Look no further, because if you are here now, you are sitting in the greenest pasture on the planet.

I think the opening post is referring to the possibility of us not being allowed into Thailand in the near future. ie Those of us not already there.

I suspect we will be allowed in within 6 months, but it's fair to discuss alternatives, just in case we are not allowed in. Even if the alternatives may or may not let us in, the longer the list of candidates, the better chance.
Myanmar, Bali, Cambodia and The Philippines would be high on my list of alternatives.

I suspect some of these will be even slower than Thailand to let us in, but surprises are always possible.

[a447]

Bali plans to reopen for tourism on September 11.

Cases of the virus have skyrocketed in Victoria - 288 new cases today - and as a consequence my state will not be reopening for a long while yet - probably towards the end of the year. Damn!

But I hope some of you guys can get to those other destinations and report back to us.

[gerefan2]

The problem is that there are so many flare ups all over the world that nobody can say what will be happening and where in November/December when most of us will want to travel.
So it is impossible to make any definite plans.
The other problem is trying to fathom out the current rules. For example in the tiny UK each of the four countries here have totally different rules...
I pity the USA where the 52 states probably have 104 different ideas!

[mahjongguy]

52 states? What has Trump done now!?

[gerefan2]

52 states? What has Trump done now!?

Well I had no idea so googled it and saw something about 52 ....!

[Dodger]

I feel bad for anyone in this situation.

If I were stuck back in the U.S. and unable to return to LaLa Land for a while I would probably opt to holiday in the U.S. until this mess clears up. Ft. Lauderdale, Miami and Key West come to mind. All are getting clobbered by C-19, but I wouldn't be hindered by travel restrictions, isolation, blah...blah...blah, and there are very active gay scenes in all these destinations. "Any port in a storm" as they say.

I can just imagine how I would feel if I were in this situation - and feel very bad for those who are.

Unless I'm mistaking, all of SE Asia has C-19 travel restrictions, isolation mandates, etc., and traveling, or attempting to travel, to any of these destinations would be risky business to say the least.

Hopefully international travel bans will be lifted and the world will start turning on its axis again in the October - December time frame. Fingers crossed!






https://wowtravel.me/11-most-gay-friendly-cities-in-the-world/

[SpreadMeEagle]

Back in early February (before the virus was a major issue) my hubby and I booked a trip to Thailand for late October/early November for Loy Krathong. We've both come to the sad realization that trip has essentially zero chance of happening (we are US citizens). Our summer trip to Italy was also cancelled. 2020 was definitely not the year for us and we had a total of 5 trips planned throughout the US and abroad... none of which have happened.

My hope is that at some point in 2021 we will be able to resume travel to both Asia and Europe, but I have a feeling entry requirements for Thailand will be extremely strict until a vaccine is made. I would almost go as far as to say that leisure travel from the US to Thailand might be prohibited until one is vaccinated. I base that on the high rate of infection here, and the fact that I estimate US visitors make up a low portion of Thailand's tourist economy due to the distance. I for one am so fortunate to have visited the Kingdom 4 times in the last 6 years. It's truly my favorite destination in the world.

Due to my job (airline pilot) I might have a slim chance of a random Thailand overnight within the next year (took a new job and will be flying mostly cargo). I'm curious if we will be restricted to our hotel rooms (as we are currently for Australia).

For those suggesting Miami, I am here now for work travel. Other than masks and restaurants being to-go only, it's pretty much life as normal. The dire picture the media is portraying is not evident from where I'm at.

Be safe everyone!

[Manforallseasons]

For those suggesting Miami, I am here now for work travel. Other than masks and restaurants being to-go only, it's pretty much life as normal. The dire picture the media is portraying is not evident from where I'm at.

Be safe everyone!

It’s not evident to the Trump ass kissing govenor as well, that’s why Florida’s infection numbers are going through the roof!

[goji]

Other than masks and restaurants being to-go only, it's pretty much life as normal. The dire picture the media is portraying is not evident from where I'm at.

I'm not really sure we should expect covid to be evident.
In the UK, I have neither seen people keeling over in the street nor someone dragging a cart stacked high with bodies down the street.
However, one undertaker did park the hearse in a prominent position with contact details on an advertising board.

The reality is the sick people tend to be at home or in hospital & everyone else appears to be carrying on as normal. Those who may be spreading covid are not easily identified. All looks normal, even when it isn't/wasn't normal.

[pong]

@ eagle the pilot: envy you, but latest report I read from also people in the airline bisnis was, that it would indeed be possible to fly into Thailand, but you and all airline staff would be required to stay in a kind of quarantine in the airports hotels in no-mansland for the soonest departure after the regular rest-time has been done. Flights from Europe can go there, bring in freight and some Thai who were cleared to travel home by the Thai embassy and those planes after an overnight would return with same crew and bring stranded tourists back home.
At other options: of course Ive also thought about it-left Thailand on 15/3 just when the pandemic broke out and landed in a country, my home, with all the rules about distance, stay home, etc.
Cambodia and Myanmar are de-facto only reachable via BKK anyway. Cambodia has even more drastic entry regulations: you will be put in a Hotel for 10/14 days at your expense (at least 40 US$/day for lodging and food, plus another 50/60US for the burocratic machinery to control you-but maybe that means your own private soldier who wis bored to death so maybe willing to do something).
Was just busy trying to get some info about Bali-has anyone any reliable and uptodate source (except TripAdvisor and the like? Same for Malayisa/Kuala Lumpur-was also often described as being OK, but have to keep out of the views.

[Dodger]

..I would almost go as far as to say that leisure travel from the US to Thailand might be prohibited until one is vaccinated. I base that on the high rate of infection here, and the fact that I estimate US visitors make up a low portion of Thailand's tourist economy due to the distance.

The U.S. will probably remain in the high risk category well into 2021, and to your point, there's not enough American tourists to offset the obvious risk to Thailand. Requiring travelers from "high risk" countries to be vaccinated seems logical, but, unfortunately, that could be a long time off in the future, especially when we have a U.S. President who's actually excited at the prospects of Disneyland reopening.

[goji]

Cambodia and Myanmar are de-facto only reachable via BKK anyway.
This is complete nonsense.
I've entered Cambodia via flights from KL and under normal circumstances, Cambodia and Myanmar have air connections to a number of countries.

Of course, at present, neither country is welcoming tourists, but circumstances can change a lot in 2~3 months. Just look at Europe.

[arsenal]

Wherever you go, after a few days you'll wish you were in Pattaya.

[Dodger]

I'm about to make a very self-serving remark, but right now I wouldn't want to see anyone entering Thailand from a "High Risk" country...including my own home country of America.

I have several close friends from America who had to cancel their holiday plans indefinitely due to this pandemic, and I sincerely feel sorry for them, but, it is what it is. Well, there's actually one of them who I don't feel sorry for at all because he's an enthusiastic supporter of Donald Trump and he's basically getting what he asked for. Maybe he'll have second thoughts this coming election.

Regardless of when each country lifts its travel ban, the ultimate decision to travel internationally will still be left up to each individual, and I have to imagine that a large percentage of travelers will wait until a vaccine has been fully developed and available before doing any globe trotting.

[a447]

In my case, being unable to travel is unbearable.

I certainly won't be waiting for a vaccine that may never come - I'm willing to take my chances with the virus!

[Manforallseasons]

In my case, being unable to travel is unbearable.

I certainly won't be waiting for a vaccine that may never come - I'm willing to take my chances with the virus!

Fortunately the choice won’t be yours to make!

[Nirish guy]

I’m with you on that one A447 !! Staying home is / was hard work! We’re currently on a 3 week touring holiday driving and staying in France ( Honfluer, Nantes, Bordeaux, San Sebastián ( in Spain), then back to Bergerac, perhaps the Palace of Versailles and ending up around Normandy and Belgium and it’s been great.

It’s lovely to have warm weather again and be eating out in good restaurants again every night - even the having to wear a mask when going into shops and bars etc is a bit of a pain as it does feel a bit like token gesturism slightly.

For instance a small bar last night say perhaps no more than 8 metres long, you must wear your mask to walk from the door to you seat ( perhaps 4 metres into the bar) then you can remove it fir the rest of the night unless you walk to the toilet) meanwhile everyone else sitting right packed almost touching you, also with no masks on, so it all feels a little like “for the sake of it”, but we are trying our best to take care of both ourselves and others, but I’m firmly of the opinion that life MUST go on as best we all can - for better or for worse now.

[a447]

I’m firmly of the opinion that life MUST go on

Exactly. I certainly don't want to lock myself away and live my life in fear.

Enjoy San Sebastian. I was there last year and loved it!

[Dodger]

I’m with you on that one A447 !! Staying home is / was hard work! We’re currently on a 3 week touring holiday driving and staying in France ( Honfluer, Nantes, Bordeaux, San Sebastián ( in Spain), then back to Bergerac, perhaps the Palace of Versailles and ending up around Normandy and Belgium and it’s been great.

Your trip sounds fabulous.

France and Belgium have been lingering on my "Bucket List" for years. French speaking boys are dreams and Belgium beer is the nectar of the Gods.

Enjoy!

[latintopxxx]

...lovely country france...food...architecture...all fabulous...its the people...oh gawd...difficult to believe that the current occupants are responsible for such beauty and grandeur

[a447]

...difficult to believe that the current occupants are responsible for such beauty and grandeur

Quite obviously, the current occupants are not.

[arsenal]

That's not entirely fair a447. They did build the beautifully elegant Arche of la Defense. Pictured below.

[a447]

True, but it was designed by 2 Danes. And "one swallow does not a summer make."

Besides, those same French people were also responsible for the hideous Tour Montparnasse.

[arsenal]

I don't seriously think it's beautiful and elegant. It's grotesque. Like something out of communist era China or North Korea..

[Nirish guy]

Have to say I’m really enjoying France, I came with my own stereotypical views of “the french” and (almost) everyone of those have been proven wrong. In general I’ve found the people friendly if not a little reserved perhaps. There have been a few times where the whole “no sorry I don’t speak English / what, you mean to can’t speak french / or sorry no we DONT have a menu in English” - all with a slight “tone” have cropped up, some genuine I’m sure and some I got the feeling perhaps not so much. My standard answer that I use everywhere when I get the “attitude” and the “why do you not speak / learn French” ( it Thai / German etc etc ... is “I’m Irish, of COURSE I don’t speak french, I mean, why WOULD I? With an equally “are you crazy” tone and they usually get the point.

Likewise when my BF and I walked into an Ibis hotel in Nantes and asked for a room after a cursory glance up and down at us we were told instantly by the 3 staff members “sorry we’re fully booked” and this after a mere fleeting glance at their screen - I thought “hmmmm really” walked outside, opened booking. Com selected their hotel, BOOKED a room and then walked back in and said “I’m here to check in” and there wasn’t so much as an apology or excuse made - do small things like that grated a little, but all in all I’ve found French people to be much more pleasant than I’d previously thought.

Now GAY french guys - well now those you can keep !! We visited several gay bars in different cities and there’s not one I would return too, as the guys were either up their own asses or just plain boring !

The Spanish guys in San Sebastián though - oh my god ! Absolutely to die for, ripped bodies, fashionable, that dark eyes and smooth olive skin thing going on, even my BF said I should come back here on my own as there are that many hot guys ( I’m guessing nearly all mainly straight btw :-( but hey it’s Spain so I’m also guessing a lot of them might be open to suggestion / corruption :-)

[goji]

When non-native English speakers learn English, they are learning what is the global second language which can be used all over the world.
On average international communication between people in any two countries that are not native English speakers will still most likely be in English.
People going from France to Thailand will usually try to communicate in English, not French or Thai.

On the other hand, if I learn French, I can use it in France and a small handful of other countries. When I try to use my very limited range of French, once they detect my accent, the reply is usually in English.

[arsenal]

Slightly pissed off on your behalf Nirish about the Ibis incident. Because you're a gay couple or not French? Either way a carefully worded e-mail stating time, date, hotel and full details should definitely be sent to the company head office. You might get a free room voucher or something.

[siscu58]

When non-native English speakers learn English, they are learning what is the global second language which can be used all over the world.
On average international communication between people in any two countries that are not native English speakers will still most likely be in English.
.

You're right Goji. But the fact that English is a widely used language in the world and many people use it to communicate, doesn't allow native English-speaking people to demand others to know it when they are abroad.

Remember that people inside their own country have the right to use their own language. It is the duty of aliens to know the language of the place they visit or, if they are lucky enough to be understood in English, to be grateful and accept that it is a compliment from these nationals.

[Nirish guy]

“Duty” !? Nonsense. It’s my choice to decide to travel to somewhere and spend my money there or not, there’s no obligation or duty declared on me that I must learn the language of each and every Country I visit, that would be ridiculous. Likewise if that Country’s businesses are chasing tourist money of COURSE you would want to make it as easy as possible for those tourists to spend their money in your establishment, which is why Thai have menus in Thai, English, German, Dutch, Chinese and god knows how many other languages. For France to suggest “no, we don’t have a menu in English ( in a tourist resort that’s full of English travellers) does seem a little bit “we speak French and if you don’t that then go somewhere else” - which is absolutely fine and I agree is their right, but it is a tad hypocritical when also then taking that same tourist income with open arms.

And you used the word “demanding that others use English” - that absolutely isn’t the case as in the few places that “didn’t have an English menu - because of Covid apparently!” and the staff “didn’t speak English” ( but were able to communicate that fact in fairly perfect English ) we simply said ok and carried on ordering our food based on my (very) limited reading of the french menu and lots of pointing. Was interesting to note after the that that on most occasions he waiter THEN translated what we’d ordered INTO English to be sure we knew what we were getting, so seemed to have amazingly learn his English in mere seconds no less after all :-)

But I would say again that these incidents ( whilst they did happen a few times actually in different places) were only a small part of our otherwise very enjoyable trip and 98% of the French people we met, both staff and public were lovely and went out of their way to be friendly and welcoming to us - the other 2% I put down to just being dickheads and sure you get those types everywhere so I just ignore them.

[latintopxxx]

...oh dear...why doesnt someone invent an app u can wave at a menu and it translates...oh wait...

[Nirish guy]

Have you actually tried that App much ? It certainly works - some of the time - but only for certain words and only if when reading a printed font and not when reading a hand written or a fake font hand written menu etc. Trust me as I’m travelling with a 29 year old Asian guy I assure you that we have just about every bloody app and more app that there is at humanities disposal and then some :-)

I should add that it hasn’t been a problem anyway as even with a basic smattering of french it seems that’s enough to get by - plus as I like living dangerously as generally eat whatever is set in front of me sometimes the whole point at a menu and wait to see what you get is a fun game to play in restaurants when travelling I find.

[goji]

Remember that people inside their own country have the right to use their own language. It is the duty of aliens to know the language of the place they visit or, if they are lucky enough to be understood in English, to be grateful and accept that it is a compliment from these nationals.

I don't expect people in other countries to learn my language. However, if I visit a dozen countries in a 2 year period, it's completely impractical to learn all the languages. Learning a little more Thai is the priority for now.

Also, whilst I don't expect people to learn English, if any business serving a multitude of international travellers has customer facing staff who don't speak English, they are putting themselves at a disadvantage. That business will have practical difficulties communicating with customers, including many customers who have themselves learnt English as a second language.

[Dodger]

Based on what NIrish is reporting, if and when I take my first trip to France there's only one word of French I will have to speak, and one word only..."Adieu", which is used when you are leaving someone for a long long time and if you are unsure when you might see her or him again. Where, according to the 5 seconds I spent on Google, "Au revoir" is used when you're leaving someone that you might probably see again and soon.

If I went to a small restaurant in the French country-side and was told they only had a menu in French...perfectly understandable...no problem, but if I went to restaurant in a heavily populated French tourist destination and was told the same thing...all they would hear from me is "Adieu" as I walked out the door.

I would probably also learn a few more helpful phrases like; Want to have some fun? Top or bottom?...How much?, etc.

[arsenal]

The French are more tolerant of Americans. France helped them against the British in the War of Independence and gave America the Statue of Liberty.

Their collective feelings towards the British are altogether more complicated. Macron has been the awkward sod par excellence during Brexit talks but then came and presented London with the Legion of Honour for WWII saying how eternally grateful the French nation are. Go figure.

[latintopxxx]

oh for heavens sake...any one with a smidgen of higher education HAS to have a working knowledge of English....its a business tool...bit like excel and power point...

[dinagam]

It is quite understandable for you to expect foreigners to learn English for your convenience when travelling abroad. But have you considered the predicaments faced by Europeans once they cross the English Channel? Some of them might be able to follow the Queen's speech, but once they start travelling the nooks and corners of England, both the locals and visitors will have some unforgettable interactions. And once they cross over the Hadrian wall, or land on the emerald island, they might as well continue speaking French or Spanish, or...

[goji]

It is quite understandable for you to expect foreigners to learn English for your convenience when travelling abroad. But have you considered the predicaments faced by Europeans once they cross the English Channel? Some of them might be able to follow the Queen's speech, but once they start travelling the nooks and corners of England, both the locals and visitors will have some unforgettable interactions. And once they cross over the Hadrian wall, or land on the emerald island, they might as well continue speaking French or Spanish, or...

It's just the same for when going from the UK to other countries.
Once one learns enough German to understand normal conversation, some of the local dialects remain incomprehensible. e.g. Schwäbisch

So if strictly following the advice to learn the language of wherever we go to, we would be learning multiple languages and many additional dialects additionally.

[arsenal]

Traditionally the British have not learned others languages. Our way has always been to invade and make them learn ours. It's worked very well to date regardless of whether the invasion was with guns or more recently a desire for cheap booze or hot boys.

[Oliver2]

Our forefathers, eager to extend the White Man's Burden, taught us that we don't need to learn foreign languages, only to speak English very loudly and very slowly.

[goji]

Traditionally the British have not learned others languages. Our way has always been to invade and make them learn ours. It's worked very well to date regardless of whether the invasion was with guns or more recently a desire for cheap booze or hot boys.

Correct.

However, just because the educated people in most all other countries tend to learn English, it doesn't mean it's feasible for us to reciprocate by learning ALL their languages. That's a lot of languages.

If a Thai learns English, he can use that to check into hotels, order meals and conduct other business all over the world, with relatively few exceptions.

If I learn Thai, I can use it in Thailand.
If I go to Myanmar, Thai is no use, so I need to learn another language & another alphabet with it. Probably several dialects as well.
Then moving onto Malaysia, it's another language, or more accurately several of them.

So everyone else learning one foreign language is not equivalent to us learning every other foreign language.
When non-native English speakers learn English, they get more benefit and have the opportunity to constantly practice.

I know, as I can understand one other European language rather well, or at least the formal language, but my capability to speak it has declined due to a lack of practice. I don't often visit the 2.5 countries where it's spoken.

Having made the effort there, I'm not planning to learn any more languages that I might get to use on a 5 day holiday, every 2 or 3 years.

These comments are not intended to be arrogant. It's just how it is -a non-native English speaker has learnt a universal language he can use anywhere for business purposes.
When I learn a second or third language, it's not universal.

Where I SHOULD make an effort is with the Thai language, as I spend enough time there to benefit and get the chance to practise. No excuses.

[a447]

It's just how it is -a non-native English speaker has learnt a universal language he can use anywhere for business purposes.

Some of the guys in the bars have caught on to this. They realise that they will have a greater chance of getting into the farang's bed of they can sit and chat with him. For me there is nothing worse just sitting there with a silly smile on my face, unable to communicate. The same goes for back in the hotel. I look forward to more than a few grunts and moans in bed - I like to chat before and after the fun. If we want to go out for a meal. Sitting in silence in a restaurant defeats the purpose so I would much rather eat alone.

For my part I have tried to learn Thai in order to meet them halfway but the tones have left me floundering and the guys bewildered.

I spoke French at home with mum and English with dad. I then changed to Japanese and in my early teens found myself speaking all three. German came later, as I was a frequent visitor due to my job. I made good friends there and often visited them.

I found that in Germany so many people spoke beautiful English but my friends encouraged me to learn German. I did so out of respect for their wishes.

Australians, like the Americans and English, do not have a good track record when it comes to learning foreign languages. French and German were taught in schools here I believe, and sometime in the 90s it was decided kids should study Asian languages and Japanese and Indonesian became popular. When the Chinese economy took off, schools dropped the European languages and adopted Chinese. However, I heard recently that parents had pressured 2 private schools to drop Chinese on account of their belligerent attitude to Australia.

However, despite languages being part of the curriculum I can't ever recall any Aussie speaking another language with me - and certainly not Japanese.

[gerefan2]

For my part I have tried to learn Thai in order to meet them halfway but the tones have left me floundering and the guys bewildered.

I

Same same, and I have a theory about this.

I went to a language school in Pattaya and learnt a little Thai but it never worked on the guys I spoke to.. Neither did the Thai I had already picked up.

I reckon that due to the number of guys in Pattaya all from different parts of Thailand, all talking in their own dialects, you really have no chance of being understood. Its a bit like being French trying to talk to a group consisting of an English guy, a Scottish guy and a Welshman all at the same time.

No chance!

One way of learning Thai would be to learn it in one area and then talk with the locals. That though may not help much in Pattaya or even BKK.

[a447]

Your theory is probably correct.

But I have another theory - in fact, I shouldn't even call it a theory because I know it's true, as I have experienced it all my life.

When the Japanese look at me, the last thing they are expecting to hear is Japanese; they are expecting me to speak English. That's what they think they will be hearing and that's what they are listening for, so at first they don't realise I'm actually speaking their language!

Once it dawns on them - wtf?? This foreigner is speaking Japanese - there's no problem.

In the shops in Thailand I get the exact same reaction. But even though they eventually realise I'm speaking Thai, it's the tones that let me down, unless I'm saying something really simple, like "Where's the toilet?"

But I'll soldier on.

[arsenal]

Are you sure you wish to understand what they're saying?

Be careful what you wish for.

[goji]

When the Japanese look at me, the last thing they are expecting to hear is Japanese; they are expecting me to speak English. That's what they think they will be hearing and that's what they are listening for, so at first they don't realise I'm actually speaking their language!

Once it dawns on them - wtf?? This foreigner is speaking Japanese - there's no problem.

In the shops in Thailand I get the exact same reaction. But even though they eventually realise I'm speaking Thai, it's the tones that let me down, unless I'm saying something really simple, like "Where's the toilet?"

My general impression is that communicating in Japanese would be easier than Thai, as we don't have the problem of the tones in Japanese. What do you think ?
I'm not completely qualified to comment on this, although with my minimal Japanese, I did once manage to negotiate a deal with a freelancer in Shinjuku in Japanese, without reference to any translation aids. A very rare success.
European languages are way easier for native English speakers.

[a447]

My general impression is that communicating in Japanese would be easier than Thai, as we don't have the problem of the tones in Japanese. What do you think ?

European languages are way easier for native English speakers.

I think Japanese is a very easy language to speak, but very difficult to speak correctly.

The grammar is simple so it is easy to make yourself understood after a bit of study. The difficulties lie in choosing the appropriate level of politeness and coming to grips with the enormous vocabulary - they have a word for everything and multiple ways of saying the same thing. Many objects have a Japanese word plus one or more "Chinese" words, and you need to know all of them if you are to understand say, the news or any kind of formal speech.

The other problem is communication itself, as you must be very skilled at reading between the lines, as much of the message is left unsaid. I believe this is quite common among some Asian languages.

Reading and writing Japanese is an absolute nightmare.

Given the complicated grammar of European languages, along with their complicated verb tenses, I think Asian languages which do not rely on tones would be much easier to learn.

[Brad the Impala]

I think another complication of learning Thai on a course is that the thai that you are taught is formal, and not that suitable for use with the service personnel that many of us interact with. It's probably perfect for polite conversation with a Khunying! At least that was my experience when I first came to Thailand and took a course at the AUA. I lasted one term before I realised my time, and money, was better used listening and learning from Thais in everyday conversation(those many who were patient enough to help!)

I also agree that the perception of the interlocutor is crucial. That dawning moment with accompanying smile when they realise that you are speaking thai, or trying to!

[snotface]

I speak (and read) Thai to a reasonable intermediate standard, which makes my life as an expat much more enjoyable, but I am only really understood by Thais who deal regularly with Westerners. Out in the sticks I am used to having to repeat myself. I once stopped at a roadside stall in Pattaya and in my best Thai asked for a cup of hot coffee. The girl looked blank and I repeated my request. And again. Finally I gave in and spoke in English. Recognition dawned. The embarrassing part of the experience was that coffee was all that was sold at the stall. :rolleyes:

[Oliver2]

And that's my experience too. I started learning Thai twenty years ago and thought I was doing well enough in my interactions, which were of course with guys I met in bars. However, when "I" became "we" in 2004, and we were moving outside these particular circles, I was found to be incompetent. And worse, funny. To begin with, P had told me that my attempts to speak Thai were "cute"- his word. However, as time went on, I understood that he preferred me not even to try . So I stopped.

Now, our Thinglish is 80% English. At least.

And, following snotface's, comment, the pivotal moment for us came when I ordered a meal and made a cock-up of the fruit-juice we wanted.

[a447]

I once ordered water in a restaurant and the waitress brought me fish sauce.

On another occasion I tried to show off and order in Thai. My pathetic attempt was met with "What number you want?"

I know when I'm defeated.

[dinagam]

I once ordered water in a restaurant and the waitress brought me fish sauce.

On another occasion I tried to show off and order in Thai. My pathetic attempt was met with "What number you want?"

I know when I'm defeated.

I'm beginning to wonder if you have been spied on many occasions entering the go-go bar opposite the restaurant?

[Marc K]

And... the pivotal moment for us came when I ordered a meal and made a cock-up of the fruit-juice we wanted.

Hi Oliver, Yipes sorry I don't understand your English either. What the #$% is a cock-up? :)

But, hey, guys, in a more serious vein, there still is no substitute for at least trying to speak the local language, sorry, yes I know it is not easy and often frustrating and sometimes even demoralizing. But there isn't a country in the world which does not wish its expats to speak its national language, or at least make a serious attempt to do so. The French would prefer you speak French. The Americans almost demonize expats who don't speak English. There really is no way around it. My favorite example is a friend of mine, a Filipina nurse, who has lived in tiny Luxembourg for 10 years. In order for her to get a PR in Lux, she had to learn Luxembourghish, the local language or no PR for her! Even though almost all Luxembourgers speak almost perfect English, French, German AND Dutch. Another example is Switzerland. This is a matter of national pride as much as it is of necessity.

Here in Hawaii the "national" language was almost completely snuffed out by British colonization (starting in 1816) followed by American overthrow and colonization (starting in 1893). Today the Hawaiian language is trying for a comeback but there are only 5 or so native speakers left as the colonizers punished those who spoke the language for almost two generations. Now students are proudly studying and speaking Hawaiian once again so perhaps it will succeed in coming back, I hope.

The point of all this is that it would be a pity if Paasaa Thai were to one day be overwhelmed by the ever-dominant presence of English (or Chinese!) and therefore be considered "unnecessary".

[a447]

But there isn't a country in the world which does not wish its expats to speak its national language, or at least make a serious attempt to do so.

I sometimes think that the locals just can't be bothered trying to decipher my Thai. Their attitude is "my English is better than your Thai".

I know exactly where they're coming from. When I'm in Japan people often want to speak to me in English, eithrr for their own practice or because they assume no matter how bad their English is, it has to be better then a foreigner's Japanese. It never is.

Or more annoyingly, I will speak to them in Japanese and they will answer me in their broken English! I hate that!!!!

I once took a friend to the doctor in Tokyo. My friend was busy looking at his phone when he tripped getting off the escalator and landed heavily on his knee. (That'll teach him!). The doctor insisted on explaining the diagnosis and treatment in English and neither my friend nor I was able to follow what he was saying. It was very awkward because the nurse was there and I didn't want the doctor to lose face in front of her. As the nurse helped my friend back into the waiting room I quickly ducked back into the doctor's office and asked for an explanation in Japanese.

Losing face is a big deal in Thailand, too. If someone decides to speak crappy English to you in front of a colleague, it puts you in a bit of a sticky situation and you have to be careful how you deal with it.

[christianpfc]

I think Christian found some action in Myanmar. I didn't find anything obvious there - and apart from going to a supposedly "gay" cafe, I didn't really look that hard.

Any report would be welcome.
That's an understatement. I had a ball / a whale of a time there.

At current situation, whichever country (Thailand or Myanmar) opens first to tourists, I will go there.. Independent of covid, I will spend more time in Myanmar in the future (after having traveled all countries in SEAsia plus Taiwan).

Myanmar being less reliant on tourism, one would expect Thailand or Vietnam or Cambodia to open their borders for tourists first.

Currently, my greatest hope of getting back to Thailand soon is a vaccine or change in policy, e.g. requiring a covid test some days before people start their journey, then testing at check-in and again at arrival, and if all are negative or show that the person has had covid and is cured, let them in.

[sglad]

I speak (and read) Thai to a reasonable intermediate standard, which makes my life as an expat much more enjoyable, but I am only really understood by Thais who deal regularly with Westerners. Out in the sticks I am used to having to repeat myself. I once stopped at a roadside stall in Pattaya and in my best Thai asked for a cup of hot coffee. The girl looked blank and I repeated my request. And again. Finally I gave in and spoke in English. Recognition dawned. The embarrassing part of the experience was that coffee was all that was sold at the stall. :rolleyes:

Perhaps it's not so much the accuracy or intelligibility of your spoken Thai but how you ordered the cup of coffee. Ordering a 10-15Bt cup of coffee at a roadside stall is different from ordering a cuppa at a western-styled cafe frequented by farang. The girl's ears are probably attuned to receiving hundreds of pithy three-word orders a day from ordinary Thais and a farang's overly polite and hyper-correct requests may not register at first. And Pattaya, like Chiang Mai, attracts a lot of foreign workers from surrounding countries and the girl may not even be Thai but knows enough to function in her job by listening for certain word strings that she's picked from the locals while on the job.

By the way, I loved those roadside coffee stalls; would often stop for a cup and a steamed bun after my morning run. They're all gone now and replaced by little cafes and fancy 24-hour ones like Wake Up.

[sglad]

In my case, being unable to travel is unbearable.

What happened - is your broom in the shop?

[poshglasgow]

Wherever you go, after a few days you'll wish you were in Pattaya.

Is there anywhere in the world right now that resembles Pattaya twenty years ago? However much we love Pats, we may have to pull the net in and re-cast.

[Marc K]

If by SIMILAR you mean relatively safe and nonjudgmental, not too expensive and not a place which effectively requires you to speak the local language, then the answer is simply no. Get rid of the first requirement and you can surely try India (Kerala? Goa?) or Sri Lanka. Get rid of the second requirement and you can try Amsterdam or Berlin. Get rid of the third requirement and you can try Brasil (Rio? Manaus?)

[arsenal]

"Is there anywhere in the world right now that resembles Pattaya twenty years ago? However much we love Pats, we may have to pull the net in and re-cast."

A two centre trip to Siem Reap and Phnom Penh is probably the closest to Pattaya in terms of hotels, motorbike hire, ease of access, places to eat and available straight boys.

[Zebedee]

If by SIMILAR you mean relatively safe and nonjudgmental, not too expensive and not a place which effectively requires you to speak the local language, then the answer is simply no. Get rid of the first requirement and you can surely try India (Kerala? Goa?) or Sri Lanka. Get rid of the second requirement and you can try Amsterdam or Berlin. Get rid of the third requirement and you can try Brasil (Rio? Manaus?)

Thanks Mark K,I loved that post. Lol.

[Moses]

If by SIMILAR you mean relatively safe and nonjudgmental, not too expensive and not a place which effectively requires you to speak the local language, then the answer is simply no. Get rid of the first requirement and you can surely try India (Kerala? Goa?) or Sri Lanka. Get rid of the second requirement and you can try Amsterdam or Berlin. Get rid of the third requirement and you can try Brasil (Rio? Manaus?)

Or for 3 in 1 you can try Vietnam

[francois]

A two centre trip to Siem Reap and Phnom Penh is probably the closest to Pattaya in terms of hotels, motorbike hire, ease of access, places to eat and available straight boys.

What, no gay boys? Or are straight boys your preference?

[Manforallseasons]

What, no gay boys? Or are straight boys your preference?

And the problem is?

[arsenal]

Francois.
For so many reasons as previously discussed, straight boys are my preference and make up 95 percent plus of my offs..

[dinagam]

Or for 3 in 1 you can try Vietnam

We are patiently waiting for your not too recent trip report to Vietnam. Warts and all...

[a447]

Warts and all...

Be careful what you ask for!

[francois]

And the problem is?

Curious to know if there are gay boys in Siem Reap and Phnom Penh.

[latintopxxx]

...there are gay boys everywhere...every single settlement on earth has them...

[francois]

...there are gay boys everywhere...every single settlement on earth has them...

That is good news; something for everybody.

[goji]

Curious to know if there are gay boys in Siem Reap and Phnom Penh.

There are plenty in Phnom Penh, but in recent years, it's become harder to find them in Siem Reap. Possibly as so many had moved to Pattaya.

This is rather academic, as last thing I knew, you had to pay a $3000 deposit to the Cambodian authorities on arrival, which is refundable only if you pass a covid test. In a corrupt country, that's quite an incentive for someone in the chain to change your test result to fail and pocket the $3000.