The China virus: calling a spade a spade

[sglad]

Like a lot of people, I'm very upset by the death and devastation this virus is causing all over the world. I have elderly grandparents for whom this virus could spell death. More than that, I'm angry, angry at China and its people for their craving for exotic meats sold in filthy wet markets which, incidentally, are being re-opened.

Today, a few friends and I told off this mainland Chinese girl in one of our social media chat groups for hoarding and selling surgical masks she had imported from China here in Sg. She had at least a thousand of these masks which are meant for frontline healthcare providers and shouldn't be sold to the lay public at all. She was selling them at $5 a piece, which is about 116Bt at today's rates. She knew she couldn't sell them through the usual platforms like Lazada because she would get caught as hoarding and selling masks at exorbitant prices is an offence. The girl, a uni student here, went ballistic when we tried to explain to her what she was doing was wrong and started calling us names. This is typical behaviour for them; try pointing out their selfish behaviour or lack of etiquette, and they will petulantly unleash a torrent of verbal abuse on us in OUR country. And she's doing her masters on scholarship provided by OUR government.

I just can't believe their selfishness and arrogance and it took a lot of self restraint not to respond in kind to her. This kind of behaviour from the mainlanders is nothing new to us but I thought they would at least show some kind of contrition, or humility perhaps, knowing that this virus originated from their country. Instead, she attempted to profit from it!

I'm Chinese and we are the overwhelming majority here but my friends and I find that we have very little in common with the mainlanders. Many of them are rude, selfish, loud, arrogant and very entitled. They act like THEY are doing us a favour by coming here.

Sorry for whinging. Anyway, I'd like to share with you this vid by Bill Maher. Really worth watching and thinking about.


https://youtu.be/dEfDwc2G2_8

PS Moderators, please help to embed this video. Thanks.

[arsenal]

China is like a lone turtle swimming in a sea of fish. Every now and then it sticks its head out. It tries to get on with the fish and the fish try to get on with it. But after a while it becomes obvious that the turtle and the fish don't like each other and are just too different. Then the turtle retreats once again into its shell.

[snotface]

I've always been a big fan of Bill Maher and his witty, no-nonsense take on things. His views on the Chinese wet markets are, as usual, right on the money. Thanks for posting the link.

[goji]

If you're looking for someone to blame, the great dictator in Beijing should be held responsible.

He's created the repressive system which suppressed all news of this virus until it was too late to nip it in the bud. The doctor who tried to warn about this was disciplined by the police.

That's also the same regime which should legislate against these wet markets.

Finally, it's the same regime that's currently censoring all medical research into the sources of the outbreak and according to some sources, is fiddling the data on Covid in China. I certainly wouldn't trust a regime which will not allow itself to be scrutinized by independent media: https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/03/china-is-pushing-a-zero-myth-on-covid-19-and-attacking-press-freedom/


I do NOT see these problems as being due to any inherent cultural behaviour in China. People can be educated and culture evolves. You only have to look at Taiwan, where people from the same origin have achieved vastly superior results with a vastly superior government.

Incidentally, Taiwan is not permitted to join the WHO, due to political pressure from Beijing. The WHO is another organisation full of spineless, useless self serving people. Look at all the bad advice they have dished out in 2020 so far.

[arsenal]

Goji wrote.
"I do NOT see these problems as being due to any inherent cultural behaviour in China."

It is exactly inherent cultural behaviour. It is cultural behaviour that is this desire to eat every wild creature and allows the guy chopping up meat in the supermarket to pick his nose and spit on the floor. It is culture and it is disgusting and it has destroyed your life Goji.

And the behaviour described above is Chinese cultural behaviour lite. Not even in first gear.

[Micky]

Thank you for posting this video...and thanks to Bill for speaking out so articulately. Let's just call a spade a spade.

[sglad]

I've always been a big fan of Bill Maher and his witty, no-nonsense take on things. His views on the Chinese wet markets are, as usual, right on the money. Thanks for posting the link.

You're welcome.

Here's another fine example of how the people of the Middle Kingdom have given their hosts the middle finger.

https://thethaiger.com/coronavirus/illegal-chinese-casino-in-pattaya-operating-after-curfew-video

[goji]

And the behaviour described above is Chinese cultural behaviour lite.
Cultural behaviour, yes.
Inherent cultural behaviour ? Well, no.
When you have people of greater China origin in Taiwan, Singapore or Malaysia, the behaviour is markedly different.
When the people experience a few decades of decent leadership, standards can be improved.
So I don't think it's an inherent problem, but it's one that can be coached out. The leadership in Beijing need to step up to the plate.

As for responsibility, well I hold the leadership in Beijing responsible. This virus could have been nipped in the bud and controlled in Hubei province, but Mr Jinping created the system which suppressed all reports of the virus before it could be stopped.

So calling it the Jinping virus would be fair.

Then, instead of recommending quarantine for all outbound travellers from China, the WHO were saying that's counterproductive and recommending travel was free of restrictions. So there was no barrier to it travelling around the world. Only AFTER the Jingping virus is in every country, do the WHO recommend quarantine. Instead of inconveniencing a few hundred thousand Chinese travellers, their policies have lead to a few billion in quarantine and over a hundred thousand deaths.

After such gross incompetence, sending the WHO directors to a firing squad would almost be too good for them.

[Moses]

moved to "Everything Else"

[Khor tose]

I consider myself very liberal, but it is pure political correctness that condemns not calling it The Chinese virus, as that is clearly what it is. Mahler is absolutely correct and he is taking heat for it. It is this type of PC that stains the democrats and in powers the conservatives. I would propose that the US should end all trade with China over this, and start making our own stuff again in the Western world.

[latintopxxx]

good luck with that...dont u realise that the vast majority of the so called free world doesn't care a crap about the rest...we have all been buying cheap products made by slave labour..(actually slaves would be more expensive to feed, water and clothe)..since globalisation took off in the nineties...we (the west) moved all our polluting labour intensive operations to the east and Mexico..and in some cases to east europe.....we the consumers still buy these products,,we all want cheap and plentiful.
As for the democrats ...if I was american I would vote for the crazy orange man just to stick it to them...thats how much I detest their baby killing policies.

[Surfcrest]

The worse things get in the US, the more noise Trump (and Fox) make about China to deflect from the administration’s inactions in February and the consequences that are sure to follow.

Surfcrest

[christianpfc]

Thanks for posting this video. Except for MERS, all recent epidemics can be traced to China or central Africa, and in both cases because locals eat everything that moves.

You can blame Chinese culture for almost-eradication of elephants, rhinos and tigers as well.

(No personal experience, poor timing, if it wasn't for Corona I would have been in Kunming in Southern China last month.)

[sglad]

The worse things get in the US, the more noise Trump (and Fox) make about China to deflect from the administration’s inactions in February and the consequences that are sure to follow.

Surfcrest

Two separate issues. Are the mainland Chinese culpable? Yes.

Is Trump mis-managing this crisis in the US and acting irresponsibly? Also yes.

[latintopxxx]

...,funny when he closed the borders to China and Europe..the democrats and the WHO led by that incompetent that cant even speak english demonised him....so hes damned if he does and damned of he doesnt...again I cant stand the buffoon...but lookling at the options...id vote for him..twice if i could get away with it...if the democrats parked their politics..and if the fake media (cnn!!!) wlould just shut up...then maybe the USA could climb ouit of this...
oh btw...latest is that the who is ok with wet markets being opened up in china even as we speak...wonder how much tea money is going that way...they will not even miss the USA's contribution.
i fear (celebrate!!) that orange baby is going to get a 2nd term...going to be wondeful to watch that pelosi witch self incinerate with rage..

[arsenal]

10 years ago a journalist wrote that
the 19th century was the British century, the 20th century was American and the 21st century will belong to China. I wholehearted agreed with him.

Not anymore. They have thrown away every advantage they had. Even before this they were, as a country and a nation universally hated for their behaviour but seen as a necessary evil. Well the evil bit is now the only thing left.

They're still spitting this airborne disease everywhere, they're still taking fish out of polluted rivers and lakes to eat, they're still collecting bugs from the trees and the narrative pushed by the government is that this is now a foreign disease.

SARS was a warning unheeded and now we have this from the same place. So what is the next one going to be like? And the next one is only a question of time.

[Surfcrest]

How quickly people forget about where H1N1 first took hold.

Surfcrest

[arsenal]

Yes indeed Surfcrest. That's part of the narrative they're using. So expect the next one.

[latintopxxx]

surfcrest...not sure where u r going with the h1n1...thw US never denied where it started, they didnt try to cover it up until it was too late and had spread all over the planet...it was never named after the US city where it originated..is that your feeble point??

[arsenal]

Latin and I are in agreement on this and both of us have experienced China and the Chinese first hand.

[latintopxxx]

...not sure I'm happy with this...arsenal agrees with me....I must be loosing my touch...

[Smiles]

...not sure I'm happy with this...arsenal agrees with me....I must be loosing my touch...You definitely are. In one short sentence of 16 words you have managed to squeeze in an ellipsis four times. That must be some kind of grammatical record.
I'd say Arsenal has you by your balls.

[Surfcrest]

Feeble?

Nearly 700 000 cases in the United States.
Over 33 000 dead

Let’s compare that to how many people live in China, where this virus began!

Surfcrest

[goji]

Feeble?
Let’s compare that to how many people live in China, where this virus began!

I would like to compare, but we don't have reliable data from China.

[latintopxxx]

goji...u too fast...was gonna say the same...and btw...my extreme suspicion of official Chinese figures as well as my stance that calling it Wuhan virus is NOT racist but siomply following a common thread...does not mean I like some here dislike and disparage Chinese...I actually by in large admire their work ethic and no nnsense approach to life...but like any society improvements are needed

[latintopxxx]

...ellipsis...lol...what is this english classes

[Brad the Impala]

...ellipsis...lol...what is this english classes

That must be a first for you

[latintopxxx]

so funny...china unleashes the virus...cripples our economies...and then swoops in to buy our assets dirt cheap...Virgin Australia to be sold to China...

[Surfcrest]

Once again it sounds like you’re buying into the Fox distraction. It’s completely plausible that people unaccounted for passed away in China before they even knew what they were dealing with or that they were overwhelmed, like we saw in Italy, in a nursing home full of dead bodies in Spain and even here in Canada, in Quebec.

The finger that’s being pointed at China is about transparency and the lead information that would have made it possible for subsequent countries affected by pandemic to be more prepared and slow further transmission to other countries. And then there’s the US, that had that information and chose to sit on it instead of react. And that...has lead to a lot more transmission that could have been prevented, both in the US and in other countries infected by travellers coming from the US.

Surfcrest

[latintopxxx]

...sounds like a 3rd rate lawyer in a budget thriller movie...the Chinese didnt know what was happening...yeah right...a fly cant fart in inner mongilia without the wax works in beijing knowing...

[Surfcrest]

Then...once again, look at how unprepared many European countries were and the losses that were the direct result of that. No country is particularly unique. This virus doesn’t care what race you are and which flag flies over your cheap republic, it only cares that the droplets it travels on can get to as many noses and mouths possible.

There’s very little that happened in China that wasn’t repeated elsewhere, unless your aim is to blame the person of the nationality who was first infected.

Surfcrest

[arsenal]

Simply not true Surfcrest.

The Wuhan lockdown was absolute and enacted quite quickly. This was followed by similar actions all over the country. From early February everybody entering China and even travelling from one Chinese city to another was isolated for 14 days. This was stringently policed.

Now compare this to the UK, France, Spain, Italy and the US where no such procedures took place for a long time or even at all.

It's harder for those western liberal democracies to impose draconian measures as its not in our culture whereas in China it's the norm.

[Surfcrest]

Interesting stuff arsenal, but not particularly related to the lack of transparency that we’re discussing here with respect to China’s reporting and this ridiculous accusation that they’re responsible for the slow US response and the amount of confirmed cases, hospitalization and death in the US. Especially when compared to the guy who’s really responsible and who should have acted much sooner rather than being out golfing.

If you want to point a finger at whether or not something is true or not arsenal, you have to at least identify what it is that you think is untrue.

Surfcrest

[arsenal]

Surfcrest wrote.
"There’s very little that happened in China that wasn’t repeated elsewhere,"

That was what I was referring to.

[latintopxxx]

...me suspects that arsenal is playing devils advocate just for the sake of it...

[arsenal]

The US state of Missouri is suing China for inflicting "enormous death, suffering and economic losses" on the world.

Filed in a federal US court, I wonder what the outcome will be. The first of many that will no doubt follow. I think the Chinese government are genuinely unaware of the fallout from this for them and their country. I predict a change at the very top.

[a447]

When this is all over, China will be treated very differently by the world.

Countries will do their best to cut as many ties as possible with them and will treat them with a great deal of suspicion. They will ramp up their own manufacturing industries and no longer rely of China for everything and this will have a huge influence on China's economy.

And this is where the leadership will find itself in trouble. The Chinese people only support them as long as the economy is reaping benefits for them. If China falls into a recession I think the present leadership will be out the door.

[latintopxxx]

...nonsense..people are pigs..we want cheap and plentiful and thats what China provides...as soon as this thing is over...either with a vaccine or a treatment plan that works it will be business as normal...in the meantime the clever Chinese are snapping up cheap assets

[a447]

...in the meantime the clever Chinese are snapping up cheap assets

Not in Australia.

[arsenal]

Not so clever actually. Countries that have a very restricted media (Russia, China) never factor in the outside world's ability to investigate events.

Hence the Dutch can tell us exactly which missile hit the Malaysian airliner and to within a few meters where it was launched from.

Everything that China tried to cover up will be revealed in a slow deliberate water torture of information. Denials will be rebutted with cold hard evidence and facts.

Expect the turtle to retreat into his shell.

[Surfcrest]

Surfcrest wrote.
"There’s very little that happened in China that wasn’t repeated elsewhere,"

That was what I was referring to.


https://youtu.be/AT8gY9EkBBQ

[goji]

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/apr/22/australian-pm-pushes-for-who-overhaul-including-power-to-send-in-investigators

[Brad the Impala]

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/apr/22/australian-pm-pushes-for-who-overhaul-including-power-to-send-in-investigators

The Guardian changes from untrustworthy to credible when it suits your point!




It's pretty damn difficult to trust the Guardian

[latintopxxx]

WHO drfinitely neds reforming...look whos at the head...cant speak english (then neither can orange baby)..not even a medical doctor...member of a marxist leftist political party that has ruled his country with an iron fist...a country that owes CHINA gazzillions...explains a lot hey...

[goji]

The Guardian changes from untrustworthy to credible when it suits your point!

Whilst the reporting in the Guardian can be misleading, I don't think they go quite as far as fabricating a story by the Aussie PM.

Examples where I do see bias and misleading reporting are:

1 EU ventilator procurement scheme. Constantly criticizing the UK government for not joining, without ever acknowledging that the UK has not been short of ventilators, whilst parts of the EU were.

2 EU PPE procurement scheme. Constantly criticizing the UK government over not joining it as part of their criticism of PPE shortages. Without checking if the UK government had joined (it has). And without checking it the EU PPE scheme has delivered an PPE. Earlier in the week, the EU scheme had not delivered any PPE.
Even the Guardian quietly acknowledged that the EU scheme is due to deliver it's first PPE "imminently". Which is their way of saying nothing is yet delivered!
That was snuck in 2/3rds of the way through an article.
Had the EU scheme actually delivered PPE, it would have been another Guardian headline topic, critical of the government.

3 When comparing the UK death rate with other countries, they are swift to remind everyone that whilst the US death count is higher, the per capita rate is lower than the UK.
When comparing with EU countries with smaller populations, they don't make such comments. They avoid mentioning places like Belgium with a significantly higher death rate per capita than the UK. They compare with Germany frequently, whilst not comparing with Italy, Switzerland, Spain, France, The Netherlands, Belgium and Sweden, which are all in the same ballpark as the UK for death rate per capita (most worse, some a tad better).
The whole reporting ethos seems designed to make the UK government look as bad as possible.

Also, the Guardian has failed to go and do any proper investigative journalism to try and find out why Germany is doing better than other EU countries.
Expect The Guardian to continue to give zero credit to the healthcare structure in Germany, which is a mixture of public-private, rather than a socialist monopoly. A quality newspaper would go and examine the system with an open mind.


Politicians might not be up to much, but in this crisis, Journalists are the one group of people who make politicians look good.

Hopefully we can get back on topic soon.

[arsenal]

Still off topic I'm afraid Goji.
The Guardian is the best of the best and the worst of the worst.
The best.
Travel section.
Food section in general and Jay Raynor in particular.
Television and movie reviews.
Simon Jenkins
It's free.
They reported on Chinese abuses for many years until they were blocked.
(So did the BBC actually)

The worst.
Most of their whining columnists in general and Poly Toynbee and Owen Jones in particular.