Pattaya in the post-corona era

[Marc K]

Hey guys this is not meant to be another "the end of Pattaya" thread. Instead maybe it is time to imagine what the post-corona era will be like. And how can we influence that future? Perhaps we underestimate our group power to set an agenda for that future?

My starting assumptions are very meager:

1. I presume all of us on this board want gay-Pattaya to continue to survive in some form, and that we, as gay men, will continue to be welcomed and part of the fabric of this city. But our existence is likely to be far more low-key than it was in the boyztown-sunee-jomtien world. I base this assumption on a recent walk through the Castro in SF. Besides the oversized gay flag still flying at Castro Station there are few hints that the Gay Capital of the World once existed. There are more baby strollers at 18th and Market than drags.

2. Gay businesses have morphed into gay-comfortable but not particularly "gay" places. My best memories of the "new" Castro were, during the recent visit, two breakfast places, presided over by friendly gay owners, but populated by an affluent mix of metrosexual clientele.

3. I presume Pattaya will evolve in much the same way. Dongtarn Beach has already drastically changed -- despite the best efforts of Rit and a few other holders-on there are now few gay sections and even fewer colorful "vendors".

4. To go even further this question -- will we even need our more-or-less exclusive venues? There are (were) hordes of Chinese women at Boyz-Boyz-Boyz. Do we need a place of our own in the new era or will we become totally homogenized into mainstream life and culture?

5. Of course "services" will always be offered. They don't call it the world's oldest profession for nothing. But as Thailand's economic status improves (thanks largely to Chinese investment) will the future of "gay Thailand" be similar to that in the more-developed world? Read: expensive, risky, strongly ostracized, criminalized, with even fewer Thais available.


Is that where Pattaya is headed? Did the COVID Devil just give this a boost?

[cdnmatt]

Wouldn't worry about being able to pick up cheap, cute, and young hookers in Pattaya, which is basically what your question is.

You're also thinking WAY too short-term. This isn't going to be over in 2 months, and we're actually looking at about another 16 months of this virus ravaging the planet until herd immunity takes effect.

Economists expect unemployment in the US to hit 32%, so what do you think is going to happen in places like Thailand? Don't worry, if you survive this virus, there will be lots of sex workers to go around for everyone.

[Nirish guy]

Don't worry, if you survive this virus, there will be lots of sex workers to go around for everyone.

You just forgot to add that some of us will be too broke or out of our OWN jobs ourselves to still be able to pay for them maybe as THAT for some people may WELL be the new reality ! :-(

[dab69]

assuming they let us back into their country...

[cdnmatt]

assuming they let us back into their country...


It's reported that 18% of Thailand's GDP is from tourism. I promise you, they're more anxious to open up the borders again than we are to get down the cute boy's pants.

[gerefan2]

This is no different to these previous “disasters”:

The Tsunami
The closed Airports and sit in
The Martial Rule and Riots/shootings in BKK
The Floods which threatened BKK
The High Value Baht
The ridiculous Visa Requirements.
Anything I have forgotten?

This too shall pass and Thailand will reopen for business. It will not be the Pattaya or BKK that we knew of only a few weeks ago. It will be a slimmed down version with only those larger business which have survived. Do not expect to see anything active in Sunee Plaza.

Do not expect prices to be anything like they were when Thailand closed.

Then there is the chicken and egg question. Do we return and hope bars reopen for us or do we wait until bars have reopened and are awaiting guests?

Finally there is the question of flights. Apart from the same chicken and egg question (any demand for flights) there is also the problem of getting passengers to sit in close proximity to each other for 10 hours or more. Not to even mention the inevitable “new fares”.

Yes we will return but have your wallet well stocked.

[Manforallseasons]

Venues that can stand the financial impact might choose to continue others will disappear.

[newalaan2]

Do not expect to see anything active in Sunee Plaza. Do not expect prices to be anything like they were when Thailand closed.

Then there is the chicken and egg question. Do we return and hope bars reopen for us or do we wait until bars have reopened and are awaiting guests?



Venues that can stand the financial impact might choose to continue others will disappear.

It's difficult to know how any of this will pan out, you can only make some kind of guesses based on what you know about the habits/life of bars, boys and customers prior to the Covid outbreak. Expats will obviously still be there, Jomtien existing virtually on that custom type alone, and I think once travel is started again, I'm sure hardcore Thailand visitors will return and those along with those expats still in place, would still provide some kind of customer base.

It's possible the smaller bars in the likes of sunee might actually manage to stick their toe in the water to try first as they would have less to lose in terms of the way they are set up (on a shoestring!). Many/most of the gay/bars in Pattaya be it Jomtien, BT or sunee are virtually run like charities, they are really just 'sources for earning potential' of a few gay lads, mamsans, who know little else in the way to make some money, as opposed to being run as profitable businesses with real profits and dividends.

A typical Sunee bar is open from late afternoon-ish to 1-2am-ish. That's 7-9 hours, and its the footfall over that time people forget about. Some think, like MFAS used to and probably still does, that their take and profitability can be assessed at the minute/hour he happens to pass or visit (I passed at 10pm it was dead! they must be making nothing and have no customers!). The rent is fixed no matter what the hours are, and freelancers cost nothing no matter how long the bar is open. So the fixed costs change little if open 6 hours or 12 hours. The rent, owners time and light/electric which I expect would be negligible. Most bars have but one owner, if Thai he is there for really only his livelihood, so not a huge amount of hands to share any profit out to, the rest of the staff might be 1-2 'salaried' staff at say, Bt2000-3000 per month which is really just a retainer to make sure there is somebody on hand to open/close the bar and be trustworthy enough to handle the cash. The rest will be/are freelance. So the bar is not a place to have monthly salaried employment, its a place to hang around and see what can be made if the footfall over the 8-9 hours brings in. If enough for 3 drinks at Bt50 commission, 3 tips from customers at Bt100 and jackpot being an off Bt2-300 for bar and Bt1000-1500 for the boy then it's doable. If no off over the 8 hours, at least he is 'doing something' and anyway 7-11 or other basic work might earn less than or around the Bt400-Bt600 from bar work, enough for food and something toward living expenses. Having 3 customers sitting giving one drink and one tip is more than achievable over 8 hour shift even in Sunee.

As long as the 'boss' has enough trade over 8 hours to pay basic costs with a bit of profit and virtually no staffing costs (as the customers pay the staff via drinks and tips directly), many Thai/farang who run bars are happy enough to have a place just to have an active an interest in, and over 8 hours even quiet looking places can take in enough to make it barely viable. Some better off foreigners such as Neal had the bar virtually as a hobby and to place themselves at the centre of gay life, I'm pretty sure Happy Place earned little in the way of profit/dividends, more likely he had to subsidise it. But he enjoyed being centre of attention, his bf was manager with salary and a good few boys made their living from it.

More likely outcome for the likes of Sunee is what the property owners decide to do with their 'asset' now they have a chance/time to really consider their options.

Jomtien Complex probably looks the most likely to bounce back, there are too many based there who rely on the bar scene for earnings as well as having many expats living around that area. The fact the Jomtien bars have kept up the offerings of daily food to former staff and boys who would most likely staff the bars post-Covid offers some hope that enough boys will just stick in there, maybe still using apps meantime as hooking up with customers and working in bars is virtually all they know and anyway where else is likely to be hiring? The boys who have returned home to Issan/the countryside are more likely just helping family farm/day-today odd jobs at the moment and so might be delighted to get back to bar work. From speaking to a few lads I know most are just hoping to get back to Pattaya/Bkk. Many left Issan in the first place to get away from the family situations/restrictions as well as earn money, 'boring' being back home!!

Anyway, only a few thoughts just rattled out, anything else to consider which might offer us some hope post-Covid19?

P.S. I was originally booked to arrive in Thailand late April after Songkran, KLM offered fee-free re-booking, so I've booked for June which still looks to be mightily optimistic, so I'll just keep moving the free-to-move booking forward until something more definite about the situation appears so I already have something in place at reasonable price point if things suddenly 'take off'.

[Nirish guy]

Some better off foreigners such as Neal had the bar virtually as a hobby and to place themselves at the centre of gay life, I'm pretty sure Happy Place earned little in the way of profit/dividends, more likely he had to subsidise it.

Although he didn't like to admit it to the world as he always liked to be seen as a savvy businessman he did confirm to me many times privately that that was indeed the case and towards the end he was getting that ripped off so much by his staff and by his bar managers / bf's / fuck buddies that the bar wasn't even bringing in enough basic cashflow to allow him even to carry on subsidising it as he had been for a long time before that in ANY continuing way, hence the shutters coming down as his key money was due and he didn't have the money to pay it at the time - or so he told me anyway.


I'll just keep moving the free-to-move booking forward .........I already have something in place at reasonable price point if things suddenly 'take off'.

There's a point !? So ARE the airlines putting any sort of caveat on the whole "you can move your booking free of charge" agreements now, as "surely" they're not leaving themselves open to us jumping in and buying £400 tickets NOW ( not even sure that you CAN right now mind?) in the hope that we can then keep moving them on to say a Christmas flying date somehow !?? I assume some form of time limit applies there or "black out" dates are being used to stop that happening already ?

[sglad]

This is no different to these previous “disasters”:

The Tsunami
The closed Airports and sit in
The Martial Rule and Riots/shootings in BKK
The Floods which threatened BKK
The High Value Baht
The ridiculous Visa Requirements.
Anything I have forgotten?

This too shall pass and Thailand will reopen for business. It will not be the Pattaya or BKK that we knew of only a few weeks ago. It will be a slimmed down version with only those larger business which have survived. Do not expect to see anything active in Sunee Plaza.

Do not expect prices to be anything like they were when Thailand closed.

Then there is the chicken and egg question. Do we return and hope bars reopen for us or do we wait until bars have reopened and are awaiting guests?

Finally there is the question of flights. Apart from the same chicken and egg question (any demand for flights) there is also the problem of getting passengers to sit in close proximity to each other for 10 hours or more. Not to even mention the inevitable “new fares”.

Yes we will return but have your wallet well stocked.

I think the global coronavirus outbreak is vastly different from the disasters you mentioned which mainly affected Thais and the people visiting or living in Thailand at the time or those who were planning to visit. This outbreak is affecting or going to affect every individual on the planet be it financially, physically, mentally, politically, spiritually and/or socially.

People might go broke, economies might collapse and pension systems might go bankrupt. Attitudes towards older people travelling might change and their insurance premiums might go up.

Nationals of the worst hit countries might face prejudice or bear a stigma of the disease, as can be seen by Hubei province residents now facing discrimination as they try to venture out to other parts of China after the lockdown, in their own country! Remember when AIDs was and is still thought of as a gay disease?

Speaking of AIDs, the ease of becoming infected by Covid-19 might change attitudes towards sex tourism and promiscuity, as AIDs did when it first became a global phenomenon in the 80s and 90s. More so if a vaccine doesn't become available within the next two years.

The kind of commercial sex venues that older farang enjoy, with subservient boys attending to their colonial whims and fancies, were already dying long before the outbreak and are unlikely to rise again. Younger gay customers are not interested in these venues and are gravitating towards the beaches, the clubs and participatory activities like Songkran and the very successful year-end white parties.

The corona outbreak will be like a long drought. The fields will dry up, the crops will die. When the rain finally comes the resilient Thais will plant again, only this time it might be a different kind of crop.

[gerefan2]

So ARE the airlines putting any sort of caveat on the whole "you can move your booking free of charge" agreements now, as "surely" they're not leaving themselves open to us jumping in and buying £400 tickets NOW ( not even sure that you CAN right now mind?) in the hope that we can then keep moving them on to say a Christmas flying date somehow !?? I assume some form of time limit applies there or "black out" dates are being used to stop that happening already ?

Travel commentators do not recommend postponing bookings to a later date. They strongly encourage people to demand refunds Immediately even if Airlines seem to make it look impossible.

The simple reason...the Airline may not be around in 3/6/9 months time ....and you would lose the lot.

[BOY69]

The problem is that most airlines are in cash adversity and are not able to make refunds , I am still waiting for more than a month for refund and the only answer I got from them is that I have to he patient.

[goji]

This is no different to these previous “disasters”:

The Tsunami
The closed Airports and sit in
The Martial Rule and Riots/shootings in BKK
The Floods which threatened BKK
The High Value Baht
The ridiculous Visa Requirements.
Anything I have forgotten?


Actually, it's quite a lot different.
Most of the issues you list were localized or regional. In some cases, if you were 1 mile away from the area of concern, you wouldn't even know it's happened.

Even when the yellow shirts shut the airport, it was easy to find a work around. I had my flight cancelled 5 days before departing. I immediately booked a flight to Singapore (actually cheaper). Then one onto Phnom Penh, since Cambodia was on my original itinerary. I eventually entered Thailand over land.

The high baht was a big problem for people who could only just afford to go to Thailand in the first place and was just a minor issue for those with a comfortable financial situation.

Now, we are not even allowed to fly to Thailand. Even if restrictions are lifted in a few weeks time, some coronavirus will still be there. Then we might not be able to get valid travel insurance.

It's like almost the entire national tourism industry has gone from 100% to near 0%. That's nothing like a localised problem.

Also, the global economy is in the process of having it's worst slow down since the 1930s. It didn't end well in the 30s.

[jimnbkk]

On top of the Coronavirus we have another: water! The water supplies that Pattaya relies on are nearly gone. They're down to 5% now. Probably enough until June if no rain comes. I was there two months Feb/Mar and it rained about 45 minutes that whole time. Fortunately Songkran is postponed (at least).There are no tourists now and for the forseeable future either. So,hotels closed or at least empty. The condos purchased by tourists are not in use. Everybody should do a rain dance every night (most of you need the exercise anyway). We need a really good rainy season.

[Jellybean]

The problem is that most airlines are in cash adversity and are not able to make refunds , I am still waiting for more than a month for refund and the only answer I got from them is that I have to he patient.

I have a strong feeling that we will all have to get used to that expression and probably for some time to come, BOY69. I am seeing signs everywhere urging me to be patient and hearing government ministers and spokesmen urging me to be patient. They do say that patience is a virtue (https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Patience+is+a+virtue). Hmmm . . . but patience has it's limit, doesn't it?

From the Coronavirus - Thailand topic:


. . . from the Bangkok Post . . .


14,000 Thais still stranded abroad

The government is telling thousands of Thais stranded abroad to be patient


Ha so be PATIENT eh ! Never Mind that you're our citizens and yes we'll get you home but we may need to put you in isolation for 14 days . . .

9870

[newalaan2]

Travel commentators do not recommend postponing bookings to a later date. They strongly encourage people to demand refunds Immediately even if Airlines seem to make it look impossible.

The simple reason...the Airline may not be around in 3/6/9 months time ....and you would lose the lot.

While that is very true gerefan2 and makes perfect sense, it's not ALL commentators. Some are actually suggesting you accept a voucher/re-booking simply for the opposite of what you suggest, in that if Airlines refund all previous bookings then they will simply run out of operating cash in the short term which will add to the chances of those failures. Ok it might be wise to only accept vouchers from nationally-backed airlines like British Airways, Air France, KLM, Lufthansa etc, Further to that some commentators are even encouraging customers to move hotel bookings for the very same reason, the more hotels making refunds for deposits/up front payments and starving their operating cash flow over the next few weeks, there is no doubt that in itself will directly lead to failures. If you are still planning to visit the original destination you booked for and you are booked even with a reasonably stable entity then of course there's still a chance you could be out of pocket so I suppose it will depend on your aversion to risk and personal circumstances.

Another smaller reason for keeping my airline booking is when things start un-locking I can see airlines still having difficulties and they may have to start up bit at a time with restricted flights on routes at the start and even with possibly a rush/demand for those seats if/when they become available so by rebooking and moving the dates forward for a flight I fully intend to use means I have at least some comfort from having an actual firm booking. Also having some bookings still in place means they can make some real plans based on seats already taken up as to whether a route is going to be viable as things start to loosen off.

I also had a bunch of prepaid hotel bookings in UK for concerts/gigs over last 3 months which have been re-scheduled, I've chosen to keep gig tickets and move hotel dates rather than ask for refunds. My attitude is that in all cases above I have already committed the cash to the various trips, hotels, gigs and that money would have gone anyway if I had been able to complete them so I'm not missing the money and I still plan to attend/travel at some stage in the future, so personally I'm just going to take my chances.

I mean, we have to have at least SOME optimism that there will be life after this nightmare!

[cdnmatt]

Fuck the airlines, or at least fuck the US based airlines. They just got included in a $1.5 trillion tax cut, which Republican members of congress promised would be used to expand industry and grow jobs, and sure enough, just got used for stock buy backs.

Same as this latest $2.5 trillion bail out. Airlines are getting $58 billion of that, and rules are, you're not allowed to layoff people, paycuts, nothing. That tax payer money is for you to keep your labor force employed, and paid during the pandemic. But nope, the US airlines decided that because of low demand, they're not going to abide by the laws within the bail out package and going to layoff people anyway, because you know... America, fuck yeah, I guess.

[christianpfc]

A typical Sunee bar is open from late afternoon-ish to 1-2am-ish. That's 7-9 hours, ...

Most bars have but one owner, if Thai he is there for really only his livelihood, so not a huge amount of hands to share any profit out to, the rest of the staff might be 1-2 'salaried' staff at say, Bt2000-3000 per month which is really just a retainer to make sure there is somebody on hand to open/close the bar and be trustworthy enough to handle the cash. The rest will be/are freelance.

As long as the 'boss' has enough trade over 8 hours to pay basic costs with a bit of profit and virtually no staffing costs (as the customers pay the staff via drinks and tips directly), ...

Several misinformation/misconception in this post.

Sunee gogo are open from 8 pm to midnight (Eros used to close midnight?) or 1 am, that makes 5 hours of operation per day. Let some bars in Boystown be open 8 pm to 2 am, that's 6 hours, the maximum of working hours you can get out of a gogo bar.

The well-managed bars (Adam's apple is a prime example with one manager and two staff and 15 gogo boys as far as I remember) can do with some staff, but many bars have a ration of 1 customer : 1 boy on stage : 1 staff. That means each boy on stage somehow has to earn enough for two. Some visits to Classic Boys (Bangkok, Twilight, now gone), there were 10 customers, 10 boys on stage, and 10 fully dressed wait staff.

I don't know how much the wait staff and the boys get paid.

You forgot tea money which might be a significant expense.

[newalaan2]

Several misinformation/misconception in this post. Sunee gogo. You forgot tea money which might be a significant expense.

Some misunderstanding and misinformation in your full post.

I didn't mention Sunee Gogos. My reference to 'typical Sunee Bar' was ordinary bars/beer bars, only this type of bar would be open from late afternoon, agogo bars would not. But maybe I should have used the word 'host bar' to save your misunderstanding.

Most of the info posted was that passed on over time from owner/managers, waiters, boys and those I know in various bars around Pattaya, so I'm not sure where the misinformation comes in. Perhaps you could elaborate. There was no reference in my post to Bangkok Gogo bars whatsoever, it was clearly 'Sunee. Yes tea money would be an expense but I imagine Host bars would be nothing like the 'significant expense' you mention. That would perhaps apply to Gogo bars and especially Bangkok Gogo bars which I didn't include in my post. There are no Gogo bars in Jomtien, the area I referenced as perhaps being most likely to bounce back.

Sunee host bars are open from late afternoon through 1-2am as I stated, that's anything between 7-9 hours not the 5 hours you state. That reference alone to 'open from late afternoon' could well have made it clear to you I was referring to Host bar not Gogo bars. Any misconception appears to be from your misunderstanding. As far as misinformation is concerned, I stand by the information you highlighted as such in your quote from my post. I know for certain of host bars past and present who have only 1 or 2 staff retained on a small salary, in fact I could even name the actual waiters and the Sunee bars they work in from the past year I visited as well as those with the boys in the bar working as freelancers. That's also why I suggested that it could be these type of bars who might just manage to get up and running post-covid (reference to 'run on a shoestring!') if Madame Sunee/current owner has no other plans for the area.

Anyway here's hoping some of those bars can get up and running again post-covid, I know quite a few boys who are going to be keen to get back to what they know, some only back home for a few days already 'bored' and those holding on in Pattaya with not even a Songkran to celebrate.

[christianpfc]

I didn't mention Sunee Gogos. My reference to 'typical Sunee Bar' was ordinary bars/beer bars, only this type of bar would be open from late afternoon, agogo bars would not. But maybe I should have used the word 'host bar' to save your misunderstanding.
Applying your post to host bars, then everything stated is valid.

As I'm only/mainly interested in gogo bars, my view is a bit myopic and host bars appear fuzzy on the fringes of my field of view.

[Dodger]

A lot of people consider Sunee Plaza as being a dead elephant. I certainly agree that it's been a dying elephant, but not quite so sure its taken its last breath yet.

Beer and Mak who own/operate Nice Boys Gogo have been successful in the Sunee gogo scene for decades, cutting their teeth at the legendary KAOS, and then taking ownership of Nice Boys which has now outlasted all of the other Sunee gogo bars.

Beer and Mak changed their business model 10 years ago when Sunee started going downhill and on-line dating Apps started growing in popularity, which, in my opinion was brilliant. Instead of staffing and paying gogo dancers based on a full-time basis as they did in the past, they transitioned to staffing dancers based on a freelance arrangement, where they simply show up to work when and if they want to,,,dance for tips...and receive no salaries. This type of business model provides the flexibility the boys need to work the apps as they chose, and/or use the dance floor at Nice Boys as a fill-in. The bar in turn makes money on the drinks the dancers generate and the off fee's, with minimal overhead expenses.

I'm hoping (probably overly optimistic) that Nice Boys will be the spark that rekindles the fires in Sunee going forward.

[arsenal]

Nice post Dodger.
I like your optimism and I share it completely.
Even before NB did it Krazy Dragon allowed the boys to be salaried or freelance with different obligations for each.

Those bars that intended to continue will do so and those bars which were about to close anyway* will do so.

*Rainbow Bar in Sunee was closing down and Double Shot had been on borrowed time for at least a year.

[gerefan2]

.

*Rainbow Bar in Sunee was closing down and Double Shot had been on borrowed time for at least a year.

I have spoken to two of the Doubleshot staff and they confirm that it will not reopen in Sunee. They tell me it will relocate to Jomtien, somewhere near Poseidon.

Another poster on here, and on the dark side, confirms that the bar has been emptied....as has the Elephant Hotel.

[Dodger]

I have spoken to two of the Doubleshot staff and they confirm that it will not reopen in Sunee. They tell me it will relocate to Jomtien, somewhere near Poseidon.

Another poster on here, and on the dark side, confirms that the bar has been emptied....as has the Elephant Hotel.

A rumor...(but coming from a reliable source), the owner of Double Shot has moved over to "Man Bar" in Jomtien Complex.

[Daveuk]

I remember staying in the Elephant Hotel several times around 2004 when Sunee was very popular for gay tourists and expats. The rooms were accessed by steep narrow stairs. Very convenient for taking boys from the dozen or so gogos.

[a447]

Location! Location! Location! That best describes the Elephant's main attraction.

Apart from that, the rooms were huge - I loved the big shower - and the ladyboy cleaner was friendly and efficient.

I was very careful not to go anywhere near that old pink sofa, somehow held together by God knows how much cum deposited on it over the years.

I shall miss the Elephant Plaza. I had so many fun times there.

[Manforallseasons]

When and if Nice Boys reopens it faces many obstacles as the owner Beer appears to make little effort recruiting new boys and the core group just gets older. Now they have gone to points unknown, after being gone so long how many will return to the uncertainty of few, few customers?

[christianpfc]

There has been a core group of boys (several of which are my type), and new talent on most of my visits (once per month when I'm in Thailand, which is about 8 months per year). Unfortunately the new talent I had my eyes on (Folk from Chiang Rai and Nine from Korat) didn't stay long.

[arsenal]

Folk. Number 2 on my all time list of greatest go go boys.

One time he was actually with me when I read what you'd written about him. So I told him. His face....a mixture of surprise and delight. Priceless.

[Manforallseasons]

I am in touch with Folk he didn’t like Pattaya and is happy now in Chiang Rai and has his own Tattoo shop.

[arsenal]

That's him. Fabulous. A wonderful photo although the ones I have of him are naked. Haha.

[michaelx1992]

Nine never left, Christian.
He is now in the provinces (Petchabun), but would like to return to his career on the stage.

Folk is indeed a great guy and also one of my favorite go go boys of all time.

[frequentfliers]

A rumor...(but coming from a reliable source), the owner of Double Shot has moved over to "Man Bar" in Jomtien Complex.

Is Man Bar sold??

[christianpfc]

Folk. Number 2 on my all time list of greatest go go boys.

One time he was actually with me when I read what you'd written about him. So I told him. His face....a mixture of surprise and delight. Priceless.
Without mentioning me, I hope.

You lucky one. I had an audition in the bar with him that went positive, but had other commitment that night. Next time, he was gone.

I'm in contact with Folk on Line. If you can call it "in contact". He does not seem to be active on Line, and some weeks after I send a message, it is read, but no reply. For these delays, I couldn't meet him last time I was in Chiang Rai, and over this odd behaviour I have given up hope.

If anyone here is in contact with Folk for business, please let me know. If he has sworn off, there is no point in pursuing him.

Re Nine, in all my visits to Nice Boys (up to ten per year), I have only seen him twice. The first time I offed him and all positive, second time he had other commitments that night.