The British Empire

[Old git]

"For me the main "sin" of British Empire besides supporting of slavery is this anti-gay law what been installed by BE across Asian continent: in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and so on..."

Look at it from a different angle. At the time these laws were established by the Empire, they were relatively enlightened. The problem today is that 50 years after colonial rule ended, they are often still there because of entrenched homophobic attitudes among the local ruling class.

Would any of these countries have more enlightened laws today if they had never been part of the Empire? I very much doubt it. Some would probably still have sodomy down as a capital offence..

[frequent]

"For me the main "sin" of British Empire besides supporting of slavery is this anti-gay law what been installed by BE across Asian continent: in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and so on..."

Look at it from a different angle. At the time these laws were established by the Empire, they were relatively enlightened. The problem today is that 50 years after colonial rule ended, they are often still there because of entrenched homophobic attitudes among the local ruling class.

Would any of these countries have more enlightened laws today if they had never been part of the Empire? I very much doubt it. Some would probably still have sodomy down as a capital offence..

Oh god the whining noise of the self-righteous has started up again

[Old git]

The self-righteous whining ones are those who assume that everything the British Empire ever did must have been reprehensible.

Those who have actually looked at the history of it see a more balanced picture. Notably that in most cases the number of colonialists was tiny compared to the local population and could only have ruled with local consent - consent that was often won through the defensive protection membership of the empire provided.

I'm not saying that everything was rosy or that mistakes were never made, but those who automatically assume that everything to do with the British Empire must have been bad and exploitative should look a little closer. It was a very different world in those days.

[Oliver2]

"Local consent" ....you mean guns?

[Dimsumbear]

but those who automatically assume that everything to do with the British Empire must have been bad and exploitative should look a little closer. It was a very different world in those days.

Look at how deteriorated Hong Kong, a former British colony, has become after the handover to Communist China back in 1997. There are street demonstrations everyday as we speak and you see people waiving the old colonial flag.

[latintopxxx]

am afraid i gotta agree that indians to have a negative reputation guess its all part of their cultural upbringing with the caste system where they all look down at one another. One only has to read about how the lower castes are treated in the countryside where rape is a sport.

[frequent]

The self-righteous whining ones are those who assume that everything the British Empire ever did must have been reprehensible.

Those who have actually looked at the history of it see a more balanced picture. Notably that in most cases the number of colonialists was tiny compared to the local population and could only have ruled with local consent - consent that was often won through the defensive protection membership of the empire provided.

I'm not saying that everything was rosy or that mistakes were never made, but those who automatically assume that everything to do with the British Empire must have been bad and exploitative should look a little closer. It was a very different world in those days.Wittering on about the perceived sins of a past empire - in another post you mentioned you “couldn’t forgive” - judged with the 20-20 perfect hindsight of 21st Century liberal values ... get a grip

[Old git]

"Local consent" ....you mean guns?

The locals usually had guns too - and even if they didn't, population ratios that were often over 1000:1 would defy any small arms, if the locals were not happy.

[Oliver2]

Good to see that "The White Man's Burden" is still alive and flourishing. it's a great feeling, isn't it, that we have done so much for the benighted sub-humans of the planet.....and that they are so grateful.

[frequent]

Good to see that "The White Man's Burden" is still alive and flourishing. it's a great feeling, isn't it, that we have done so much for the benighted sub-humans of the planet.....and that they are so grateful.Absolutely Olly - how are you getting on with organising Gay Pride Palestine?
https://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/showthread.php?20960-Getting-cut-meat

[Old git]

Good to see that "The White Man's Burden" is still alive and flourishing. it's a great feeling, isn't it, that we have done so much for the benighted sub-humans of the planet.....and that they are so grateful.

So, who do you regard as 'we' ?

The reason the British Empire became far and away the largest of the old colonial empires was because the British did not treat the indigenous peoples as sub-human (unlike the Germans and Belgians) nor did they attempt to win hearts and minds through outright terror and barbarity (like the Spaniards)

In an era when people could (and did..) raid the lands of other peoples to rape and pillage with complete impunity, Pax Britannica worked well for both sides..

[frequent]

In an era when people could (and did..) raid the lands of other peoples to rape and pillage with complete impunity, Pax Britannica worked well for both sides..Who are you thinking about Old Git? The Turkish conquest of Constantinople perhaps?

[dinagam]

Perhaps Boris Johnson's return to Turkey, although by birthplace a New Yorker.

[Old git]

Who are you thinking about Old Git? The Turkish conquest of Constantinople perhaps?

Everyone remembers the big atrocities of history, but less is appreciated about the smaller scale events that caused much distress - for example the small merchant ship putting in at a tropical village fishing port to load fresh water, and finding the men away at sea, deciding to rape a few young girls for a bit of 'sport' before they left - because no-one would ever call them to account.

Once that port was inside the Empire, ships would be aware that such activities would get the RN on their tail..

[Brad the Impala]

Once that port was inside the Empire, ships would be aware that such activities would get the RN on their tail..

Sanctimonious drivel! "We didn't rape as many as the others", if that were even true..............

[frequent]

Everyone remembers the big atrocities of history, but less is appreciated about the smaller scale events that caused much distress ...Perhaps you could mention William I's Harrying of the North (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North) - seen as ethnic cleansing. My family and I are wondering if we can seek compensation, and if so how. From those Germans currently at Windsor? If it's good enough for the descendants of black slaves in the US, after all, to seek compensation, it's good enough for us

[gerefan2]

[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North"]If it's good enough for the descendants of black slaves in the US, us

Lucky them. Best thing that happened to them.

[arsenal]

Let's hope all members can contribute to this thread without needing to resort to one of those words banned on this forum.

[frequent]

Let's hope all members can contribute to this thread without needing to resort to one of those words banned on this forum.Compassion? Tolerance? Forgiveness?

[Khor tose]

So, who do you regard as 'we' ?

The reason the British Empire became far and away the largest of the old colonial empires was because the British did not treat the indigenous peoples as sub-human (unlike the Germans and Belgians) nor did they attempt to win hearts and minds through outright terror and barbarity (like the Spaniards)

In an era when people could (and did..) raid the lands of other peoples to rape and pillage with complete impunity, Pax Britannica worked well for both sides..

Old Git, I think you are both correct and wrong at the same time. The BE (British Empire) did have many positive effect on the empire they ruled.
The BE brought the rule of law and established a good court system wherever they ruled. They brought an administrative system to many countries that had never had one., and most importantly they brought a good transportation system to almost all of the countries they ruled. Yes, quite often the BE ruled with less warfare then the people they ruled had experienced before.

In my opinion, where you are very wrong is that they were nice guys that treated the people okay, unlike the Spanish, Belgium, and Germans. No, here is where you are very wrong. You could be educated at Oxford, speak perfect English and even hold a title, but you would always be a “wog” or a native. If you want to look at nice guys, try the French. If you spoke French and were educated you were French. Black, brown or yellow you were accepted as French if you met those requirements. Now this clearly can be bad for the local culture, but was far more humanistic then anything the British did. While the BE did do many of the things that I listed that I would call good, everything they did was to make it easier to control the population and drain as many natural resources they could out of the counties they ruled.

I really feel I must point out that most of the problems in the world today, can be laid at the foot of the BE, and the BE’s proclivity to pick a minority to rule the majority. From India to Africa, and the Middle East the problems today are problems the BE left behind when they withdrew from their empire. Sometimes beneficial, but mostly the BE really did think they had a mandate from God to rule the natives.

One more thing,Oliver2, I really hope just once in your life you can realize there are two sides to every argument..

[latintopxxx]

khor tose...to put it very politely..U R full of crap

[frequent]

khor tose...to put it very politely..U R full of crapThe thing about human crap is its great value as a natural fertilizer. As a dedicated virtue signaller (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling) Sore Toes most likely shops at Whole Foods (https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/) (now owned by Amazon and therefore a bit of a dilemma for your ardent moralist) or farmers' markets

[frequent]

Speaking of virtue signalling, there's a lovely anecdote about Jeremy Corbyn, well before he became Labour leader, letting his then lover the black MP Diane Abbott be discovered in his bed - interracial sex being somewhat avante-garde at the time. I suppose it's a bit like being found in bed with your Thai bar boy by your leftie friends and explaining that you're simply funding the purchase of a new buffalo

[arsenal]

The British Empire.

Starched Uniforms, funny hats with feathers, lunch at the ex-pats club, lots of afternoon tea, servants galore, gin and tonic at sundown, malaria, easy to win wars, dinner with the governor or the viceroy and a chauffeur to drive you home.

What's not to like?

[latintopxxx]

glad u c it like that....somebody had to tame the locals and teach them how to eat with utensils

[frequent]

The British Empire.

Starched Uniforms, funny hats with feathers, lunch at the ex-pats club, lots of afternoon tea, servants galore, gin and tonic at sundown, malaria, easy to win wars, dinner with the governor or the viceroy and a chauffeur to drive you home.Cucumber sandwiches, cricket, Evensong with full choir (no girls)

[frequent]

glad u c it like that....somebody had to tame the locals and teach them how to eat with utensilsSuch as Rama IV's adoption of the spoon and fork, rather than the knife and fork http://thaipalace.ca/why-does-thai-cuisine-prefer-fork-and-spoon/

I do love watching first-time visitors asking for chopsticks to eat Thai food

[latintopxxx]

I find it amusing how some people are so critical of the British empire and by extension western civilisation and by this I mean that similar anti western arguments are employed about the Spanish, Portuguese and French empires/colonies but somehow ignore the actions of non european empires, as if the natives were all peace loving beings that sat in circles holding hands singing kumbaya my lord all day. Non western civilisations were also colonisers and just as cruel as the western ones, in fact even parts of europe were at times invaded and colonised at some time or other. All I can say to all the ex British colonies...throw yourselves onto your knees and thank your Gods you were colonised by the British..and not the other unorganised european powers.

[dinagam]

The unorganised European powers have systematically decimated half of the native populations in the Americas, Africa and those far reaching islands of the great seas and oceans . The Japanese imperialist were kinder by half.

[a447]

The Japanese imperialist were kinder by half.

I doubt the people of Nanking would agree with that.

[arsenal]

The hatred felt for the Japanese Imperial Army went beyond anything directed towards the Germans such was their treatment of populations and POWs. "Kinder" is not a word usually associated with them.

For me they were however, the finest fighting force ever assembled and it took the combined efforts of Britain, Australia, New Zealand, India and America to defeat them. If they hadn't attacked Pearl Harbour then Manchuria would today be called Greater Japan.