Its Official..US Embassy no longer providing income verification letters for Thai Immigration Jan1.

[travelerjim]

Attention Americans in Thailand...
Message from US Embassy Bangkok

U.S. Mission in Thailand to Cease Providing Income Affidavit

October 26, 2018

Bangkok, THAILAND

As of January 1, 2019, the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok and the U.S. Consulate General in Chiang Mai will cease to provide the income affidavit for the purpose of applying for Thai retirement and family visas and will not notarize previous versions of the income affidavit.

The Royal Thai Government requires actual verification of income to certify visa applicants meet financial requirements for long-stay visas.

The U.S. government cannot provide this verification and will no longer issue the affidavits.

Please consult the Royal Thai Embassy in Washington, D.C. and Royal Thai Immigration Bureau websites for information on how to meet the requirements for a Thai retirement visa or extension

Tj

[Smiles]

Thats two down (UK and USA) and of course many are wondering whether the contagion will go further.
Right now at least the Canadian Embassy's notary services regarding the income letter are as they always were: i.e. no changes.

One might surmise that the process of receiving a notorised income letter might well be the stumbling block here.
Although I am not familiar with the UK Embassy's process, I know for sure about the USA Embassy's: for many years now the USA Embassy has not required the receiver to show actual proof of income. Instead the receiver is asked only what their annual income is, and then they are asked to swear ~ on the bible? ~ that what they say is true. Thats it! Theoretically one can tell them any old figure on or over the amount the Thai Immigration asks for.

The Canadian Embassy asks for actual proof. For myself, once a year I make a Bangkok run to the Embassy and take with me my tax return . . . they told me many years ago that the return is the Best Proof.
Question is, would that difference be the key to one country being accepting to the income letter (i.e. a "real" notorisation), and another being rejected (i.e. a "flawed" notorisation)?

Who knows? But if the Canadian Embassy keeps on with asking for income proof before notorising and then being accepted by Thai Immigration it's possible that that's whats happening.

I'd certainly like to know whether the UK income letter process is the same as the USA.

[arsenal]

Cue the Americans here, on GB and GayThailand going into cataclysmic meltdown mode. Civilisation has ended.

[DoubleDutch]

This is going to end living in Thailand for many US expats.
How many really have 64k THB coming in every months? I'm guessing less than half. Few retired Americans who I know well over the years get around $1000 every months, that's about half required, but more than enough to live here.

Imagine if some UK or Americsn guy's pension is 55k THB, he is now fucked, because some bureocrat, in some cubicle, some years ago was chewing on a pen on a lazy afternoon, and came up with the 64k figure. That is nearly 5 times more than Thai average monthly 12.000 income.

What will happen to expats who own condos? Second and third round condo market is dead, Thais and Chinese only but new, it is already very difficult to sell older condo, and now?

[bkkguy]

The Canadian Embassy asks for actual proof. For myself, once a year I make a Bangkok run to the Embassy and take with me my tax return

but does the Canadian Embassy actually verify (not notorise) the contents of the tax return document is true and correct from other sources, eg contact the tax department in Canada? Otherwise this is unlikely to satisfy the Thai authorities requirement for "actual verification of income".


Question is, would that difference be the key to one country being accepting to the income letter (i.e. a "real" notorisation), and another being rejected (i.e. a "flawed" notorisation)?

there is nothing more "flawed" about the way the US or British embassies are doing their notarisation - notarisation has never been about a document's contents or the correctness or truth of that content in any western country - even Canada

each country has their own terminology but generally a notary public, a commissioner of oaths or a consular official etc can witness a signature on a statutory declaration or affidavit, but it is not their role to go beyond that

and in most countries it is a serious offense for a citizen to make a false declaration, but again it is not the role of the notary to prove that

as the Thai authorities are now enforcing a requirement for "actual verification of income" the UK and US embassies are no longer notarising such "income declarations" as their consular officials are not by definition able to provide a document that satisfies the requirements, and to extend consular duties to provide such proof would be difficult given the many and various different sources of income in these countries, privacy laws, etc, and I would expect most other embassies to follow suit

but as usual the actual decision of what exactly they require for "actual verification of income" is not set in stone so once the dust settles it may turn out that there are still reasonable ways to "prove" income and that may or may not require involvement of your embassy

bkkguy

[DragonMaster]

This is going to end living in Thailand for many US expats.

Imagine if some UK or Americsn guy's pension is 55k THB, he is now fucked, because some bureocrat, in some cubicle, some years ago was chewing on a pen on a lazy afternoon, and came up with the 64k figure. That is nearly 5 times more than Thai average monthly 12.000 income.



A couple of points to note;

1. You can meet the 800,000 Baht requirement with a mix of pension and a savings deposit in a Thai bank account. It doesn't have to be all one or the other.
2. This requirement has been around for many years and if you multiply 65,000 Baht by 12, you get 780,000 Baht which is close to the 800,000 figure for a deposit.

It's really hard to have too much sympathy for anyone who has repeatedly lied about their income to remain in the kingdom in violation of Thai law. There are cases where situations may have changed since the original retirement, but for those who have knowingly lied to the embassy yearly without trying to comply with the rules need to either comply or leave the kingdom and go back home.

The argument that the amount is 5 times what the average monthly income of a Thai has no relevance. Foreigners who come to live in the kingdom are guests here not Thai citizens and the government has set rules for the privilege to live here. You can choose to follow the rules or leave, it's pretty simple really. I really doubt that many retirees living here would enjoy or even entertain the idea in living a typical Thai existence based on 12,000 Baht/month. I know a lot of Thais and I certainly wouldn't want to live in a small one room apartment with no air conditioning and have to skip meals to survive. I know many Thais who do both but still manage to make it. It's not easy!

[scottish-guy]

It’s quite something to be lectured on legalities and ethics by someone who ran a sleaze pit.

Is it draughty up there on your high horse?

:D

[christianpfc]

I know a lot of Thais and I certainly wouldn't want to live in a small one room apartment with no air conditioning and have to skip meals to survive. I know many Thais who do both but still manage to make it. It's not easy!
I don't know anyone who has to skip meals.

[dinagam]

They don't normally skip meals. Some of them have eating patterns and meal times different from yours. I try to keep my diurnal rhythms even during holidays. Even the Khmer lads in Jomtian have their two square meals in a day whenever they are hungry.

[latintopxxx]

what a sad report...and here i was led to believe that all retirees lived like pashas...

[DoubleDutch]

what a sad report...and here i was led to believe that all retirees lived like pashas...

Not really, latintopxxx. Let's break this down.

One guy lives in New Jersey, another guy lives in Pattaya, both retired Americans, both getting about $1000 USD gov pension, that is about minimum, something I will eventually receive from my government, since I have not worked much in my life, and not paid into the system.

So, what does a typical day of these two guys look like? New Jersey guy lives in apartment, let's say he owns it, so all he has to deal with are condo fees, and food. I think the 65 year old NJ guy does not go out much, because there really is nowhere to go with couple hundred $ he has to spend every month.
65 year old Pattaya guy also owns a condo, gets the same $1000 every months. He's condo fees are maybe 300 Baht per month, that's $10 USD. I'm not familiar with condo fees in US, but in Toronto a 1 bedroom downtown Toronto condo fee is $400 every months. That alone puts things in perspective. Pattaya guy can go out in the morning, and come home at night, he eats outside street food 2-3 times a day. He can go out 365 days a year, because wether allows it, and he can take long walks on Beach Rd, sit in a beach chair for 40 Baht from morning to sunset, new plastic recliners 100 baht. Or he can bring his own towel, and lay down, free. Water bottle cost 7 baht. Basically he lives, he has a purpose, he has a reason to wake up, because gets up, makes his coffee, and heads out. NJ guy wakes up, drinks his coffee, and goes back to bed, or lays on a sofa, watching Good Morning America on TV. Later in a day hopefully better programming.
NJ guy only goes out to buy groceries. From Oct to Apr he avoids going out at all, it is -5C and can get to -15C. Ground covered with ice, or worse, slush, 6 months out of a year.

So if a guy has $1000 guaranteed income, he is much better off in Thailand, in Cambodia even more so.

Now this DragonMaster decided to talk about living in Thailand on 12.000 THB per month. Why he did that, I have no idea, peculiarly, for some reason, he quoted my post. I said I know Americans who live on $1000, and live well, they own condos, which they bought when they moved here, after selling property back home.
DragonMaster decided to talk about imaginary people, Westerners skipping meals, Westerners living on on 12.000 THB per month. I assure you, latintopxxx, these people do not exist. DragonMaster couldn'tt dispute that a man can quite nicely live with much less than Thai gov requirement of 65.000 THB, lets say, 45.000 THB per month, so instead of agreeing that 65k is not needed to live here comfortably, he started talking about Westerners starving in Thailand lol. How do you argue with person like this? I say this is a tasty orange, his come back is "this apple sucks!". Very tiring. But he is a cop, a play cop, a pretend cop, Tourist Police lol, so don't take anything he says too seriously, latintopxxx.

Latintopxxx, it is not a sad report, and people here, at least most people do not live sad lives. I'd say the 65 year old NJ guy, living in Jersey City, is in a bad spot in life, especially 6 month out of the year, when he goes out only for essentials.

One thing, never sell property back home, in order to finance a condo or house in Thailand. Let's say you are bored to death of Thailand 10 years down the road, if you sold, you have nowhere to go back. Pension isn't enough to even cover rent in most Western countries, or barely enough. Rent in Thailand, it is absurdly cheap to rent here. For extra income, rent out your house in Dutchland, that alone is enough cash to live in Thailand nicely.

[latintopxxx]

ok, as i suspected...life is good in Thailand

[DragonMaster]

Now this DragonMaster decided to talk about living in Thailand on 12.000 THB per month. Why he did that, I have no idea, peculiarly, for some reason, he quoted my post. I said I know Americans who live on $1000, and live well, they own condos, which they bought when they moved here, after selling property back home.
DragonMaster decided to talk about imaginary people, Westerners skipping meals, Westerners living on on 12.000 THB per month. I assure you, latintopxxx, these people do not exist. DragonMaster couldn'tt dispute that a man can quite nicely live with much less than Thai gov requirement of 65.000 THB, lets say, 45.000 THB per month, so instead of agreeing that 65k is not needed to live here comfortably, he started talking about Westerners starving in Thailand lol. How do you argue with person like this? I say this is a tasty orange, his come back is "this apple sucks!". Very tiring. But he is a cop, a play cop, a pretend cop, Tourist Police lol, so don't take anything he says too seriously, latintopxxx.



Well DoubleDutch, perhaps you can point out exactly where I said anything about Westerners skipping meals, or that Westerners were living here on 12,000 THB per month. I was trying to point out that your reference to the immigration requirement for income being 5 times that of the average Thai salary was irrelevant, which of course it is. Thais do not live the same lifestyle as folks who retire here, and I don't know of any "Westerners" who would find it comfortable trying to adapt to a Thai style of living. I never said that there were "Westerners" living here on 12,000 THB per month. I know English is difficult for some people to understand.

There are unfortunately, Thai people who live here that do indeed skip meals and do go hungry because they don't have enough money to buy food, even though it is pretty cheap on the street. I do know some of these folks and they don't all hang out in Jomtien Complex, Sunee, or Boyztown or sell themselves to "Westerners" to get money. Just because some of you don't happen to know any, doesn't mean they don't exist.

DD really shows his ignorance when it comes to the Tourist Police and the volunteers, which are many times confused with the volunteers from Soi 9. Big difference between the two, but that's for another time.

Thailand is a great place to live, and you can live quite well on $1000 per month. I never disputed that fact, so please, do try and act like an adult if that's possible.

[christianpfc]

There are unfortunately, Thai people who live here that do indeed skip meals and do go hungry because they don't have enough money to buy food, even though it is pretty cheap on the street. I do know some of these folks and they don't all hang out in Jomtien Complex, Sunee, or Boyztown or sell themselves to "Westerners" to get money. Just because some of you don't happen to know any, doesn't mean they don't exist.
I only believe it when I see it (Thai people who go hungry*). They have family or friends who would treat them to a meal. Anyway, they wouldn't eat streetfood, but prepare food for themself. And Thai friend once told me people can get food at temples (confirmed, just last week I got a free full meal at a temple, and several times before in the course of the years - however only few of the many temples I visit had free food when I was there).

*Except for beggars. If they can't rise enough during day, they go to sleep hungry. But let's keep this conversation to people who pursue regular activities like working or studying, and live in rooms and not on the street.

*And except cases like myself. Sometimes I go hungry. But that's out of choice. Breakfast is a must, but after that, when out sighseeing, and there is no food or only stuff I don't like or have to make most of the day and can't waste time eating, I can go without eating all day, and only after sunset (no more sightseeing due to lack of natural light), I realize that I'm hungry because I haven't eaten all day.

[latintopxxx]

christian...skipping lunch is NOT the definition of hungry...U R so first world....LOL