Money in bars

[frequent]

There've been a few posts recently about the decline of the bar trade, so I thought it apposite to extract and post this from a recent Stickman column (yes, he's back) about non-gay bar economics. I'd think the same is true for male-for-male bars
Just another indicator that the bar industry is not humming are the meagre salaries paid to foreign bar managers these days. Once upon a time the position of bar manager in a gogo bar was a well-paid job with a salary that gave you a decent lifestyle. By comparison, bar bosses used to earn considerably more than your average Bangkok English teacher – but I doubt that’s the case these days. 10+ years ago I’d say the average monthly salary for a foreign bar manager was around 70,000 baht a month – with many perks like free drinks (which it ought to be noted is not just free drinks in the bar they manage but usually means free drinks in many other bars too, from other bars owned by the same boss to bars where they are friendly with the owner / manager). For those who enjoy a drink, 10 years ago a monthly package of 70,000 baht per month and what was effectively unlimited free drinks was a tidy package. For some time, one bar manager was on a salary that included a decent rate and a small percentage of the bar’s monthly turnover which meant he earned over 100,000 baht a month and some months earned up to 130,000 baht – and this was way back in 2004, 2005 and 2006 when that went a whole lot further in Bangkok. He lived in a 200+ square metre apartment downtown, ate Western food most nights and frequently took trips back home. Not a bad gig. Compare that with a foreigner currently managing a big name Bangkok gogo bar who earns a paltry 40,000 baht a month. And on top of managing the bar he is also responsible for all of the online marketing. There just isn’t the same money in the bar industry these days.

[latintopxxx]

really 100k bht...thats like EUR 2000....I wouldnt even conteplate gettingb oiut of bed for that...

[scottish-guy]

Don’t be silly LatintopXXX - think how many flights on China Southern (your airline of choice) you could buy with €2000

[bkkguy]

more to the point at the rate LatintopXXX "tips", for that money it wouldn't be him struggling to get out of the bed but an endless succession of exhausted playthings!

bkkguy

[latintopxxx]

excuse me...Im the one doing all the work...ok I'll admit there is the one or two position where the bottom has to actually exert himself (me on my back, bottom sits on my ginormous engorged member and bobs up and down while I pretend to ignore him)...but in most cases Im the one doing all the hard physical work...
But back to topic...what self respecting farang would up sticks, shift to Thailand...for EUR2000/month?!

[arsenal]

Our beloved Delphic Oracle would and did. You might need to lose the self respecting bit.

[frequent]

Our beloved Delphic Oracle would and did. You might need to lose the self respecting bit.Your understanding of the Delphic Oracle (https://www.coastal.edu/intranet/ashes2art/delphi2/misc-essays/oracle_of_delphi.html) is clearly as facile as your understanding of Thailand

[arsenal]

My understanding is that my understanding of everything is facile and it's futile to refute.

[latintopxxx]

..too many big words for my little brain...gives me big headache...thing I need nap and 2 kamagra...

[Smiles]

That actual thing which gives you a headache is your never-ending use of the triple (or more, which is very annoying) ellipse which you employ once you have written 5 or 6 words. It gives the folks here headaches also.

What's with you guys anyway? Frequency struts around with a dozen dildos up his ass, and you have been going ellipse-crazed for years.

Examples:


excuse me...Im the one doing all the work...ok I'll admit ...

really 100k bht...thats like EUR 2000....I wouldnt even conteplate gettingb oiut of bed for that...

[frequent]

What's with you guys anyway?
Perhaps you should read my recent post on Stoicism - you figure in it. Or is it that that’s pissing you off?

[arsenal]

All of Frequent's posts are mesmerising and gorgeous but his stoicism post is Nobel standard.

[DoubleDutch]

That actual thing which gives you a headache is your never-ending use of the triple (or more, which is very annoying) ellipse which you employ once you have written 5 or 6 words. It gives the folks here headaches also.

What's with you guys anyway? Frequency struts around with a dozen dildos up his ass, and you have been going ellipse-crazed for years.

Examples:



I think the 3 little dots look classy...

Now you've done it, you've crushed Latintop's self esteem. Why do you have to be like that, Smiles, why can't you be more like frequent, stoic?

[neddy3]

I think the 3 little dots look classy...

I don't.

Latin is yet to prove that he can construct a sentence.

[dinagam]

Writing style, like high fashion is seasonal.
The three dots is his stylistic attempt to string words into comprehensible sentences, his string of pearls, to complement the mink stole.

[neddy3]

dinagam, what have you been taking?

[scottish-guy]

Since we are in "what pisses me off" mode, can I suggest that critics quit referring to "ellipse" and just say "dots"?

Furthermore, the singular is "Ellipsis" and the plural is "Ellipses".

The singular "Ellipsis" already means a series of dots (minimum 2 obviously, but usually 3) - so it's incorrect (in more ways than one) to employ "triple ellipses" to indicate 3 dots. "Elipsis" (singular) covers the symbol "..." perfectly

A "triple ellipsis" by definition would have a minimum of 6 dots (3 x 2), and more typically 9 dots (3x3)

"Triple ellipses" therefore would be a 3 triple ellipsis

Thank you, good morning and if you have any disagreement, keep it to yourself

:drink:

[Smiles]

You are quite correct regarding the ellipses (et al) and I do apologize.
You are now right up there deserving of the Sawatdee Golden Dildo for 2019. And yes, the SGD has been wrenched right out of Frequency's ass in order for you to show it around. He is now left with eleven.

[DoubleDutch]

You are quite correct regarding the ellipses (et al) and I do apologize.
You are now right up there deserving of the Sawatdee Golden Dildo for 2019. And yes, the SGD has been wrenched right out of Frequency's ass in order to show it around. He is now left with eleven.

It never made sense to me why do people chose dildos for daily walks. Butt plug are much better option, it stays in place, and wont wiggle all the time, making you have to adjust it constantly.

[scottish-guy]

... You are now right up there deserving of the Sawatdee Golden Dildo for 2019...

Thanks Smiles - I shall place the Dildo on my mantelpiece and every time I look at it, I'll think of you

:p

[latintopxxx]

smiles...u really need to relax...BTW I too hate it when guys walk around with a dildo/butt plug firmly in place....takes all the fun out of fucking them...who wants a sloppy gaping orifice...bit like fucking scottys face...

[frequent]

Thanks Smiles - I shall place the Dildo on my mantelpiece and every time I look at it, I'll think of you Why is Smiles so obsessed with dildos in the past few hours? Is Whatshisface away?

[scottish-guy]

...who wants a sloppy gaping orifice...bit like fucking scottys face...

"Likes" from Arsenal and Paborn will be awarded imminently

[frequent]

"Likes" from Arsenal and Paborn will be awarded imminentlyIt raises the question in my mind, scotty - how does latin know what it's like to fuck your face? Is there something Forum members should be told? But you may be wrong about paborn - that honourable gentleman seems to have decamped over the past few days. I suspect he's lolling in the Elysian Fields of Ayatollah Gaybutton's Board

[scottish-guy]

It raises the question in my mind, scotty - how does latin know what it's like to fuck your face?

I can assure it has never happened and can only assume it's just something he fantasies about.

However, I have received a PM from another member who claims to have seen Latin "in the flesh" and described him a short, swarthy, portly individual whose own face is well and truly fucked.

I have no idea whether that's true or not, so I wouldn't dream of repeating it.

[frequent]

However, I have received a PM from another member who claims to have seen Latin "in the flesh" And lived to tell the tale!

[DoubleDutch]

"Likes" from Arsenal and Paborn will be awarded imminently

It seems Paborn has made good of his promises, and finally left us.

[frequent]

It seems Paborn has made good of his promises, and finally left us.
An honourable man to the end

[Smiles]

An honourable man to the endAnd that honourable end was a tightish one.

[dinagam]

He seems to be quite happy at gaythailand.com.
Believe me not, he's even extolling the use of Google search to find TV series popular in the fifties as he reminisces his favourite twink actors.

[Nirish guy]

Poor woman ! :) Perhaps she was heading over to yours SG to deliver your coveted prize !! :)))

8270

[scottish-guy]

I know SGT members are cheap but I was promised a golden one.

[frequent]

I know SGT members are cheap but I was promised a golden one.You misheard. You were promised a golden shower
Believe me not, he's even extolling the use of Google search ...The advice showered on him here was not wasted then. What a relief

[gerefan2]

You misheard. You were promised a golden showerThe advice showered on him here was not wasted then. What a relief

You will only he happy when everyone has gone...that's sad in the extreme

[neddy3]

Oh, I don't know.

He likes an audience to pontificate his wisdom.

[frequent]

He likes an audience to pontificate his wisdom.I particularly value gerefan2 to whom I gave valuable advice (not yet acknowledged) on his Will

[arsenal]

After taking one for the team and going over Reichenbach Falls I continued to read the forum.

It was clear that even without the professor here there was still non stop bickering. Nature abhors a vacuum. But the endless snide and pompous comments directed at virtually every poster had gone.

[frequent]

After taking one for the team Tell you what, arsenal, why don't we both "take one for the team" and voluntarily not post for a week?

[arsenal]

That is an iteresting suggestion but my genuine belief is that only one of us would actually be taking part in the sabbatical.

That is, I believe you have other handles here that you wheel out occasionally and they would magically appear to continue your 'work'.

[frequent]

That is an iteresting suggestion but my genuine belief is that only one of us would actually be taking part in the sabbatical. That is, I believe you have other handles here that you wheel out occasionally and they would magically appear to continue your 'work'.There are people who "genuinely" believe in a God. Perhaps you could entertain the membership by pointing out who these other handles are and your proof that they are also mine? The Forum software is supposedly deliberately designed (by Matt for Surfcrest, as I recall) to identify such duplicates and ban them - or at least that's what you and scotty agreed recently when your other handle "argosy" or whatever it was got banned

[arsenal]

I have no proof, that is why it's a belief and not a scientific fact. As for our old chum Argosy, well.......most curious.

[scottish-guy]

...The Forum software is supposedly deliberately designed ... to identify such duplicates and ban them - or at least that's what you and scotty agreed recently when your other handle "argosy" or whatever it was got banned

Everybody knows who "Argosy" was, but it really doesn't matter what the forum software flags up when the Great Controller who makes the decisions just suits himself anyway (and makes no bones about it).

If "Argosy" was banned as a hydra, then the perpetrator's original ID ought to be extinguished too - that's what the "rules" say, but just like the software, the rules are subject to the whim of the Great Controller

[Moses]

Everybody knows who "Argosy" was,

... and 90% of them are wrong


If "Argosy" was banned as a hydra, then the perpetrator's original ID ought to be extinguished too - that's what the "rules" say, but just like the software, the rules are subject to the whim of the Great Controller

Did you check all 1500+ members before to make your false conclusion?

[arsenal]

“There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.”

Mr Donald Rumsfeld.

Most apposite in this instance.

[Old git]

In the smartphone age, the bar culture is changing, and the gay scene seems to be in the vanguard of that change.

It doesn't mean the end of bars, but the business model needs to adapt.

Bars now need to focus on being primarily physical meeting places for people who have already met online, and to get boys to volunteer a bar as an RV point, a bar will have to run a commission system for the boys, so they get a percentage of the customer's bin.

The seating in the bars needs to be more convivial for a meet and chat, rather than a viewing platform for a stage show. They will also need ST rooms or easy access to them. The bars will need to write off most of the revenue they currently get from bar fines, so drinks prices will rise. Whether the boys will continue to get a kickback on each drink that's bought for them is debatable - a percentage kickback on the whole tab will be easier to administer.

[arsenal]

I disagree with you Old Git. I personally don't think most of the bars need to change or even that they can. I think the main change needs to come from the landlords who at some point will have to accept that the rent they want is completely out of kilter with what a business operating in that premesis can afford.

Halve the rents in Sunee and Boyztown and see the places re-open very quickly.

[scottish-guy]

Old Git - I suspect the main reasons that the Apps are winning over the bars is that a) many boys would rather sit at home and get hook-ups via an App than parade about in their knickers on a stage, and b) many "punters" don't want to pay the fees and drinks prices in the bars.

So I really don't see how your "model" of bars being a rendezvous point for hook-ups pre-arranged via Apps can work, as many of the boys on the Apps still won't want to be in the bars even with their clothes on. The punter's side of the equation would see (as you concede) bar drinks prices rising which would make the App-using cheap Charlie punters (or those who just don't like bars) even less likely to meet there.

[scottish-guy]

... and 90% of them are wrong Did you check all 1500+ members before to make your false conclusion?

I don't know which conclusion" you're referring to.

I've drawn 4 conclusions:

1. The identity of "Argosy"
2. That "Argosy" was banned as a hydra
3. That (if that's the case) the originator's "main" ID ought to have been banned too (as the Rules dictate)
4. That you and only you decide who to ban

Which of those "conclusions" are wrong and why do you recommend I check or consult with +1500 people before expressing an opinion.

I don't recall you ever holding a ballot before giving us the 'benefit' of your opinions, nor should you have to.

Now, if you're saying that the "Argosy" ID was not owned by the person "90%" of people think it was, and if you are also saying that the "real" offender (rather than the one which "90%" assume it was) has been dealt with and both his hydra and his original ID banned - then why don't you just tell us who it was? Why the secrecy? It is a power thing?

Incidentally, the software may well indicate +1500 members but we all know there are no more than 20 active (i.e. regularly contributing) in the fourm - and that's probably being generous

[arsenal]

I liked Argosy. I miss him.

[Old git]

" So I really don't see how your "model" of bars being a rendezvous point for hook-ups pre-arranged via Apps can work "

If the boys are getting perhaps 20% of the clients bar bin as a kickback, they won't want to meet on a park bench or restaurant - and they will want him to spend heavily in the bar..

[scottish-guy]

Yes I get that - but given that one of the main reasons punters are boycotting the bars is the drink prices, how will the increased prices (which you say will happen) tempt them back?

I just think the whole boy bar scene is on its last legs - which is a great pity - and it's beyond saving

[DoubleDutch]

Yes I get that - but given that one of the main reasons punters are boycotting the bars is the drink prices, how will the increased prices (which you say will happen) tempt them back?

I just think the whole boy bar scene is on its last legs - which is a great pity - and it's beyond saving

You asked interesting question about drink prices, would customers return to bars, if bars decided to lower their drink prices. My guess is no. Even if a 600 baht drink would cost 300 tomorrow, I would not go back, it isn't about cost, it's that apps offer many times the number of guys, why would I go to gogo bar?

It is different for Asians, Chinese girls LOVE to giggle as they look at guys in underwear. Chinese don't mind paying 650 baht for such entertainment, and you probably agree that for them it is great fun for very little money. Westerners go to gogos for different reason, and if current trend continues there will soon be almost no Western gay customers in gogo bars.
Some bars will survive, thanks to Asian customers. For a successful bar the location is what kills, or helps them survive. Boyztown will remain fairly busy, it is next to busy tourist areas, Sunee will be history, Chinese have simply never heard of Sunee.

I think 2 things changed hook up scene here, and it happened 3-4 years ago, dating apps started to become popular in Asia, and especially Thailand, guys could afford to buy smart phones, and they quickly learned about Grindr, Hornet. GayRomeo was on the scene before these apps, and started to chip away business from gogo and host bars. Why would a guy spend a night on stage in his underwear, if he can stay home, watch soaps, or go outside and hang with friends, and make few thousand when he feels like? Many do both, day time apps, 8pm work in a bar.

At the same time, 4-5 years ago Chinese started mass travel, small groups at first, before the Chinese invasion you'd only see Japanese, HK, Korean customers at soi Twilight. Prices started to increase, but drinks in most Bangkok gogo bars were still in 300 baht range. Remember, only 3-5 years ago. That was the time bar owners noticed that for many, probably most Asian customers price of a drink made no diffrence, and they started to increase drink prices, and then off fees. Bar owner is not interested in a 600 baht off fee, and lose most handsome guy in his bar, he rather have this guy on a stage.
As Chinese middle class started to grow quickly, Chinese groups started to dominate Pattaya and Bangkok. Massive change in tourist demo in only 5 years.

While Westerners visit gogos to off guys, Chinese go for shows, or just look at handsome gogo guys. Chinese buy drinks, but they do not off. Chinese do not leave 600-800 baht off fees to bar, so bars get their money from 600 baht drinks.

As the drink prices sky rocketed, around same time Westerners started using apps, Thai and other guys were also happy to use apps, everybody satisfied. For sex, there is no longer any need for gogo bars, doesn't matter what the drinks cost. For some reason older gay generation still visit gogo, but you won't see people under 40, instead Hornet is packed with handsome Russians, granted, only during hi season. They have no need for gogo bars, but they do visit Boyztown, as a night out.

Gogo bars in good, busy tourist location will stay and make money, but they are now becoming show bars, not a place to off a guy, but to see a show, look at handsome, fit guys on stage.

Some Westerners will always prefer gogo, it is good to see merchandise before deciding to buy, apps can be tricky. To those Westerners drink prices are important factor.

For me it's Chinese, and I now hardly ever hook up with Thais. Chinese on apps are hungry for sex, many have never been with white guy, sex with Chinese guy is real sex.
Thai guys often are not eager, while very polite and patient, they are waiting for the whole thing to end, get paid, and fuck off. They are working, and sometimes they do their job very well. Chinese guys want to have sex, the guy comes, but instead of getting dressed and leave, he keeps laying on bed, waiting to be ready for round 2. I tell you, Chinese are a manna from heaven for bottom like me. They are naturally rude and pushy, all great traits for an aggressive top!

For guy like me there is no use for gogo bars, zero! I suspect there are many others.

[Old git]

" I just think the whole boy bar scene is on its last legs - which is a great pity - and it's beyond saving "

There is a mentality problem when it comes to letting property in Thailand. When landlords see a tenant doing well, they want a bigger slice of the action, but when they are doing worse, reducing rents seems to involve loss of face and they will often leave property empty instead of dropping the rent.

Outside of BKK (which IS beyond salvation for nightlife I suspect) there is a dramatic drop in rents when you go just a couple of sois away from a nightlife area, and the owners of the property in those sois are only too aware of that, and are keen to get a share of the action.

The answer is for new bars to migrate a little, if the local burghers will allow it..

[Smiles]

Really good analysis DD. I agree with your thinking regarding the beginnings of the internet apps sensation coinciding very closely with the slow devastation of places like Sunee (arguably the most obvious example), Twilight/Surawong (nearly as dramatic), Boyztown, Chiang Mai market area, and Patong. One cannot fail to see it happening over time.
One exception seems to be Jomtien Plaza where things are hopping instead of stagnating. Why I don't know, but their particular business model seems to be quite successful in cheating the heading wind.

A question: regarding Chinese guys using the internet. Are you talking about using the apps from Thailand and still attracting Chinese, or do you live in China?

[dinagam]

I believe Jomtian Complex is where things are hopping, whereas Jomtian Plaza is the place across the Thappraya road from Tinnies pie shop. Jomtian complex is very accessible and surrounded by niche hotels within a 200M radius, when compared to Sunee.

[Smiles]

Oops ... "Complex" not "Plaza". Quite right.
I'm a naughty boy.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BKaQLYPf5hM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BKaQLYPf5hM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BKaQLYPf5hM

[a447]

The Cambodian guys working in Jomtien Complex certainly know their target audience.

Nom, who worked in one of the bars off and on for over a year told me that when the guys first start working there, they are usually manly, straight types.

Once they see what the punters are after they suddenly turn up to work wearing bit of make-up and acting fem.

[DoubleDutch]

A question: regarding Chinese guys using the internet. Are you talking about using the apps from Thailand and still attracting Chinese, or do you live in China?

Nope, never even been to China.
Apps in Pattaya and Bangkok. Last peak season, Dec and Jan 20-30 messages every day.
I say on app profiles I like really Chinese, and aggressive tops especially. And they send messages, during very high season it's almost impossible to reply to all, and no point, really, since I couldn't meet most anyways. So I get to be picky
In Pattaya they usually stay at hotels very central, they message pic of hotel card. Often they stay in condos, air BnB, by now I'm super familiar with The Base, Centric Sea etc lol. It's funny, very often they are in town for 3 days only, often there is someone else from their group sleeping in same room, but they always ask if it's ok, friend sleeping lol

[Surfcrest]

There are people who "genuinely" believe in a God. Perhaps you could entertain the membership by pointing out who these other handles are and your proof that they are also mine? The Forum software is supposedly deliberately designed (by Matt for Surfcrest, as I recall) to identify such duplicates and ban them - or at least that's what you and scotty agreed recently when your other handle "argosy" or whatever it was got ban tned

No, that was ElephantSpike and some extra tools we had hooked up to the old phpBB software. You recall we hacked into the old BitcthBoard around then after they started publishing personal information.

Then it was the extra add on's that I first employed here to protect this Board from the BitchBoard kids, that also brought to light some other nonsense...that was dealt with at the time.

I believe I addressed most other irregularities at the time....including yours.

Surfcrest

[latintopxxx]

doubledutch....really...chinese....tops....really. ..what do they do...tap u on the shoulder to let u know when they r in???

[scottish-guy]

doubledutch....really...chinese....tops....really. ..what do they do...tap u on the shoulder to let u know when they r in???

Look at it from the other side - not everyone has a bunghole like a wizard's sleeve dear

[DoubleDutch]

doubledutch....really...chinese....tops....really. ..what do they do...tap u on the shoulder to let u know when they r in???

Oh shut up, latintopxxx, I don't get fucked every time, unlike you, pony-boy!

Most times its blow job, lots of times mild SM, I would get into some detail, but you wouldn't be able to understand, would you? I bet you are not even top, latin, I bet you are one of those nasty "power bottoms", absolutely worst type of sex partner, while your job as bottom is to be obedient and do you what you're told, these power bottoms act as if they are the boss! WTF is up with that? It's simply wrong!

Besides, getting fucked by small or average size dick is very nice, not painful, you get the pleasure, but not the discomfort of big dick. Chinese really are aggressive, and it seems that they are not even trying, or part of role play, that's just how they always are. But as a fellow bottom you know all about it, latintopxx

[latintopxxx]

see we have two peas in a pod here...so similar they are...LOL...

[a447]

Some posts in this thread have been moved to the Holding Room.

A447
Moderator

[gerefan2]

Some posts in this thread have been moved to the Holding Room.

A447
Moderator

Double Dutch....please see the above.

[latintopxxx]

a447 in trouble....nooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! cannot believe

[christianpfc]

I do both, gogo bars and online dating. Depending on location.

I Bangkok prices in gogo bars are prohibitively expensive for me, so I do all my business (figuratively; some boys I pay, others come for free) online.

In the provinces anyway, no gay venues, but online I have been lucky recently. Even in cases where I already had a date (Nakon Sawan, Chumpon), I could have had someone from online.

In Pattaya, I enjoy watching boys in underwear on stage. Prices are reasonable, so I visit up to 4 bars in one night, and if I see someone I like, I take him home. And if I don't find someone in the bars, but don't want to go home alone, I have a pool of previous who are worth a repeat and just a phone call away.