MLK

[cottmann]

Monday, January 16th is Martin Luther King Jr. Day in the USA.

While his impact was most felt in support of Black America, the rest of us owe him a vote of thanks.

All of us have benefited...."

Being neither Black nor American, I'll withhold my vote of thanks until the benefits of his support for the all the rest of us are explained.

And let's not forget Hedda, who apparently among her many delusions thinks she's some black woman on a bus

You are drawing an extremely long bow there, Rainwalker. Most of the black community is, I'm told, absolutely furious with the suggestion that black civil rights had anything to do with gay "rights". They may have been in parallel but they are certainly not successive. Other countries (remember them - there are people other than star-spangled bumpkins?) seem to have developed gay rights movements without having any acquaintance with the good ol' US of A

Liberation and equality are far from any reality in Bush's America; in fact the lights are going out and America is on the edge of a new dark age.

Much as I have little time for Bush (and not much time for Americans generally), the previous comment strikes me as close to complete nonsense

I am a proud American celebrating our countries continuing struggle for equality for all.. But, what does this thread have to do with "Gay Thailand"????

[cottmann]

We are all in this together and MLK was a leader of the civil rights movement which lead to the woman's movement and to gay liberation.

Conscious that there is a distinction between legal liberation and social acceptance, I think that this is an overstatement that conflates several issues. The Civil Rights movement was essentially a US phenonomen because the desegregation and other oppressive conditions that American Blacks were fighting against did not exist in most other countries - apart from South Africa perhaps. It may have led in the US to Gay Liberation and to Women's Liberation, but it must be remembered that the 1960s was a decade of counter-culture movements (anti-racism, anti-segregation, anti-sexism, anti-Vietnam war, pro-hippy, and anti-capitalism) that helped to create a climate which allowed gay liberation groups to gain strength.
I think that these efforts had little influence on Gay Liberation in the rest of the world. I understand that, while most of the countries of the former British Empire, including the USA and Canada, outlawed homosexual acts, that homosexuality was not illegal at that time in many other European countries, e.g., France (since 1791 and since 1810 in the Napoleonic Code) and Belgium (since 1762), and has never been illegal in many other countries - Thailand, Vietnam, The Philippines, Japan, etc.
In many European countries the G&L liberation movements began long before they did in the USA - in 1911 in The Netherlands for example where, although sodomy was not illegal there was social persecution. Successive European governments had begun to decriminalize homosexuality long before the American Gay Liberation movement, e.g., in 1933 in Denmark and Iceland and 1944 in Sweden, although they were not given moral sanction. Even in the UK, liberalization began long before it did in the USA. Homosexual acts between consenting adults were decriminalized for adults in the UK in 1967, two years before the Stonewall Riots that start the Gay Liberation movement in the USA.
Moreover, it is not at all clear that MLK was pro-gay liberation. There is no record of him issuing a public statement about discrimination against gays - although he did have a gay advisor - Bayard Rustin. It may well be that if Bayard Rustin had not be gay, the US would be celebrating BR Day and not MLK Day. It is interesting to recall that MLK's youngest daughter participated in a march in Atlanta in December 2004, in support of a federal constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. The Rev. Bernice King has said she doesn't believe her father died to give homosexuals the right to marry.
As for Women's Liberation, women such as the Pankhursts and Rosie the Riveter had been working for the inclusion of women long before MLK got involved in the bus boycott in Alabama.

[dab69]

since homosexuality has never been illegal in Thailand, this really has nothing to do with "Gay Thailand"

[elephantspike]

I'm letting it run here just for today to give it some exposure out of respect. It'll end-up in the Global Forum soon.

[Dboy]

Liberation and equality are far from any reality in Bush's America; in fact the lights are going out and America is on the edge of a new dark age.


The above statement is accurate. If you don't understand why, you're just clueless.

Dboy

[cottmann]

Liberation and equality are far from any reality in Bush's America; in fact the lights are going out and America is on the edge of a new dark age.


The above statement is accurate. If you don't understand why, you're just clueless.

Dboy

The lights may go out quicker than you expect! Capitol Hill Blue has published online an article outlining the way in which "Bush could seize absolute control of U.S. government."
It states, in part: "The Department of Homeland Security established the тАЬNorthern Command for National Defense,тАЭ a wide-ranging program that includes FEMA, the Pentagon, the FBI and the National Security Agency. Executive orders already signed by Bush allow the Northern Command to send troops into American streets, seize control of radio and television stations and networks and impose martial law тАЬin times of national emergency.тАЭ
The authority to declare what is or is not a national emergency rests entirely with Bush who does not have to either consult or seek the approval of Congress for permission to assume absolute control over the government of the United States.
The White House press office would neither confirm nor deny existence of BushтАЩs executive orders or the existence of the Northern Command for National Defense. Neither would the Department of Homeland Security.
But my sources within the White House and DHS tell me the plans are in place, ready for implementation when the command comes from the man who keeps telling the American public that he is a тАЬwar time presidentтАЭ who will тАЬdo anything in my powerтАЭ to impose his will on the people of the United States.
And he has made sure that power will be absolute when he chooses to use it."

By DOUG THOMPSON http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/p ... 7986.shtml (http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/printer_7986.shtml)

But one hundred years later, the Negro still is not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination.

It seems that many african americans will refuse to acknowledge advances in society until some rich white men give them free money. That's called charity, not freedom. Equality is not a blank cheque.

Unlike before, the american black man is free to buy a plane ticket to go to any nation they see fit. It was Africans that sold slaves to the white men. Africans still sell real slaves even today, yet it is powerful white men that condemn this activity the most, powerful black men tend to perpetuate it as they always have. Get ones own house in order today before you complain about someone elses shameful history.

Pot, kettle, black.

Yes, the Victim Mentality is much easier (where's Surfcrest when you need him?). Of course there are penty of faggots who run around talking about how they've been oppressed, too

When a camp gay guy is mugged, one questions, was he mugged because the mugger hates gays, or because the mugger knows it's easier to mug a poof than a big strong butch black guy. Is that discrimination, or logic? I hate that 'racially motivated' crimes in the UK can carry higher penalties. Why is a black life worth more than a white one?

Gay oppression is far too often seen as a failure of the common man to tolerate and embrace loud and overbearing histrionic behaviour. I have been called racist for claiming that rap is primal and uncivilised, and a homophobe for claiming too many gay men take awful care of themselves. Racism and homophobia are unfortunately very loose terms which scrutinize even constructive disapproval.

But one hundred years later, the Negro still is not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination.

It seems that many african americans will refuse to acknowledge advances in society until some rich white men give them free money. That's called charity, not freedom. Equality is not a blank cheque.

Unlike before, the american black man is free to buy a plane ticket to go to any nation they see fit. It was Africans that sold slaves to the white men. Africans still sell real slaves even today, yet it is powerful white men that condemn this activity the most, powerful black men tend to perpetuate it as they always have. Get ones own house in order today before you complain about someone elses shameful history.

Pot, kettle, black.
Mr. Objective, you do realize the Martin Luther King quote you responded to was from a speech in the 1960's when segregation was still legal in the USA?
And yes the American black man or any American can buy a ticket to most countries (not Cuba, Iraq, or North Korea though) but that doesn't mean that even the majority of them would eligble to immigrate to most countries.
So why is the free travel so important?
Isn't it more important for American black people (and others) to be concerned about changing the internal politics in their own country?

You miss my point, what I object to is the notion that it is still relevant today, and the suggestion that no progress has been made. Who said anything about free travel? Someone wants to fly to a better country, they gotta pay for it. Same as everyone else.

Change internal politics how? Free money? Reparations? Black subsidy? Positive discrimination? Is equality not enough to fight for anymore? I've listened to that argument before and I find it flawed. So exactly what sort of political change are you talking about? If a person dislikes day to day America so much why do they stay? One could draw parallels with farang expats, except they complain before they leave their home country, and complain more after they arrive in LOS too.

Too much victimisation culture and finger pointing. There is no law that says a black man can't start up a successful business.

You miss my point, what I object to is the notion that it is still relevant today, and the suggestion that no progress has been made. Who said anything about free travel? Someone wants to fly to a better country, they gotta pay for it. Same as everyone else.

Change internal politics how? Free money? Reparations? Black subsidy? Positive discrimination? Is equality not enough to fight for anymore? I've listened to that argument before and I find it flawed. So exactly what sort of political change are you talking about? If a person dislikes day to day America so much why do they stay? One could draw parallels with farang expats, except they complain before they leave their home country, and complain more after they arrive in LOS too.

Too much victimisation culture and finger pointing. There is no law that says a black man can't start up a successful business.
OK,

1. I didn't mean free as in no money. I meant free as in being allowed to travel.
2. Yes, I agree, progress has indeed been made for black civil rights in the USA! But, by no means, have all the dreams of the great Martin Luther King been realized.
3. Yes, I agree, that black people themselves share a lot of the responsibility for the progress not being fast enough, but certainly not all of it. An example of what I mean, the huge percentage of young black men in PRISON. This is clearly not an equal group if that is happening.
4. One thing that really bugs me about your attitude is the ridiculous assumption that just because someone holds a Western passport, they will automatically be eligible to legally immigrate to their country of choice. Most countries have strict visa and immigration guidelines. The majority of Americans would not be eligible to immigrate to many if not most countries. As a tourist, sure, to move permantly, a totally different matter.
So you sound like a real right wing love it or leave it kind of hack, that is a cop out, most Americans are basically stuck there, so they had best work to change it.

I think we should move on... really... I mean what has this got to do with 'Gay Thailand'? History is an interesting thing, something to do with imagination of what happened. Martin Luther King (arrogant to use the initials, some people have never heard of him... ask the next Thai market trader)... what about Luther? What about Augustus Ceasar... narrowly avoiding Cleopatra becoming Queen of Rome... and would it have mattered? Say Martin Luther King had NOT been... would there not have been someone else. What if Napoleon had not lost at Waterloo, or even what if Chamberlain had bombed Berlin in 1938. Thailand was on our side in the First World War and was an enemy in the Second (her fleet was sunk by the French operating out of French Indo China).... that is a wee bit closer to Thailand. Hey - what if General Taksim had fallen in battle against the Burmese... what if the Dutch had got hold of Thailand... there goes more to it all than America's history...But, on the other hand, free speech and all... OK let the string go on.

Fair enough.
You don't have to read the post.
Martin Luther King was the Gandhi of America and having lived through the period, there was nobody else like him. He was unique and being assasinated so young sealed the deal.

[elephantspike]

This is a subject that very much deserves disscussion, so I left it here to let it gain some steam (and out of respect for the Holiday in honor of Dr. King). It seems to have plenty of steam now, and the holiday is over, so I'm going to file it in the Global Forum. Please do cotinue.

. .some black woman on a bus.

This speech of MLK's is one of the most powerful in history !

Al Gore made almost as an important speech on this day but was anyone listening ?

[cottmann]

. .some black woman on a bus.

This speech of MLK's is one of the most powerful in history !

But sadly, according to some sources, in part plagiarized from - or at least based on - a speech by Pastor Archibald Carey during the 1952 Republican National Convention:

Carey, 1952:
We, Negro Americans, sing with all loyal Americans:

My country 'tis of thee,
Sweet land of liberty,
Of thee I sing.
Land where my fathers died,
Land of the Pilgrim's pride
From every mountainside
Let freedom ring!

That's exactly what we mean тАФ from every mountain side, let freedom ring. Not only from the Green Mountains and White Mountains of Vermont and New Hampshire; not only from the Catskills of New York; but from the Ozarks in Arkansas, from the Stone Mountain in Georgia, from the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia тАФ let it ring not only for the minorities of the United States, but for . . . the disinherited of all the earth тАФ may the Republican Party, under God, from every mountainside, LET FREEDOM RING!


King, 1968

This will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with new meaning:

My country 'tis of thee,
Sweet land of liberty,
Of thee I sing.
Land where my fathers died,
Land of the Pilgrim's pride
From every mountainside
Let freedom ring!

So let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire!
Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York!
Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania!
Let freedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado!
Let freedom ring from the curvaceous peaks of California!
But not only that; let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia!
Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee!
Let freedom ring from every hill and every molehill of Mississippi!
From every mountainside, let freedom ring!

When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual: "Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"

... a story about homophobia in black churches in the US - http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/200 ... ergy_x.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-01-21-gay-rights-group-clergy_x.htm)