No country for old men?

[frequent]

I had some interesting conversations with ex-pats and potential ex-pats recently, most in their seventies. One Westerner/Thai couple had decided to relocate to Thailand when the Westerner retired. They built a house for themselves on the outskirts of Yasothon, the Thai’s home town, and on the Thai family’s land. I’m told the house is generously proportioned and airconditioned. They lived there for three months in all before the heat became too much for the Westerner, and they returned home. They had not sold their home in Farangland. The Westerner also complained of the comparative loneliness although that wasn’t the most significant factor. Since returning home the Westerner has had a heart attack and is convalescing. Not only won’t they be returning to live in Thailand, the Thai says he has no intention of returning to live when his boyfriend dies either; “things are much better where I am”. His aged parents are living in the house

A second Westerner/Thai couple relocated to Chiang Mai from Farangland, selling their property there and using the proceeds to set themselves up in Thailand. A couple of years after arriving the Westerner was diagnosed with bowel cancer; chemotherapy cost him in excess of a million baht. He is, in effect, a permanent invalid. They would like to return to Farangland to live but have no wherewithal to do so

A third Westerner has lived in Thailand for a number of years, but contracted HIV shortly after he relocated. He’s the most fortunate of the four in the sense that his Farangland health insurance does cover him for most medical expenses in Thailand. He originally bought a condo in Jomtien but realised after a few months that having only sexpats for company was OK for a holiday but not sufficiently stimulating intellectually now he’s a permanent resident. He’s relocated to Bangkok. Needless to say, Pattaya condo prices meant selling the condo resulted in a capital loss. For his age (78) he’s in remarkably good health and for the most part enjoys living in Thailand. He has no plans or even thoughts about living elsewhere. He took pride in showing me his large collection of dildoes

A fourth Westerner (in his mid sixties) owns his own condo in Bangkok but spends extended periods in Farangland, where he also owns a condo. He rents both out on AirBNB or similar (Favstay in Thailand) while he is away and has a fund of amusing stories about his guests. He was telling me about his most recent Bangkok guest and contemporary, a Thai who does the reverse – lives in Farangland but spends short periods in Thailand. He thinks the Thai must have an umbrella fetish or is very forgetful. He found nine in his condo when he came back from his latest trip. As a diabetic he relies on medication that is expensive in Thailand but subsidised in his home country, so stocks up on his trips home. He insures his trips to Thailand via travel insurance

[paborn]

A fair discription of the sort of possibility that keeps me in the US with visits to Thailand

[Oliver2]

Agreed. I considered relocating in 2004 but the more I examined the consequences and heard the views of ex-pats (including those on this forum), the more convinced I became that Thailand is a place to visit and enjoy, not an appropriate home for a Londoner. Or at least this one. Three visits of three weeks at a time each year satisfies my needs and I suspect the arrangement improves rather than hinders my relationship with P., something that may sound counter-intuitive.

[kkjason]

This is quite an interesting topic. I think it goes back to everyone has to live somewhere, so if you have the means to, you should live where you are happiest. No two people are the same in this regard. We are the opposite of what is described here. I am American/my husband Thai. We lived in America, did the marriage thing, and now we are back here in Thailand and loving life. We go back to America 3 weeks in the summer and 3 weeks in the winter. Beyond that, we couldn't imagine living there full time again. My father has moved here to Thailand now and we take care of him. It is a happy arrangement for us, although I know many foreigners that live here who desperately want to get back to their home country.

The problem, as I see it, is jobs. Outside of America, jobs are hard to come by in the West, particularly if you have lived abroad for a number of years. For those who are considering moving here, that is a major consideration. Giving up a job is a major life decision. If you end up hating Thailand after a few years, you might find that a job is difficult to find once again. Going back to America - the cost of health care is beyond astronomical. In fact, I equate it with buying a new car in Thailand. Count on spending 4 or 5 times more than the damn thing is worth! Americans do not get health insurance as a benefit - we have to pay for it (mind you, we also pay less tax than Europeans). That being said, I was an upper middle class wage earner in the U.S., and the cost of health insurance was just about to kill me. Living here, I get the best of both worlds. Medical care here is surprisingly good and cheap - I only go to well regarded private hospitals. I now have health insurance from a company in the UK that covers me everywhere EXCEPT for the U.S. (the British aren't stupid mind you!). I am thankful to have the health insurance, because as the OP mentioned here, the cost of cancer treatment should it become necessary can wipe a person out financially. In the sad event I get cancer, I am taking up residence at Bumrungrad in Bangkok with the husband in tow. We will have a grand old time in between chemo treatments, courtesy of my paid up health insurance policy! (I'm not a very funny guy - so that is my lighthearted effort of making light of a serious ailment).

Anyway - Thailand, for us, is the place to be. We have our friends here, a nice laid back lifestyle, and the ability to go back to the U.S. twice a year to get our fill of Western culture (not that I am desperate for that). For others, it will be the exact reverse situation that appeals to them. To each his own.

Cheers -

[frequent]

Anyway - Thailand, for us, is the place to be. We have our friends here, a nice laid back lifestyle, and the ability to go back to the U.S. twice a year to get our fill of Western culture (not that I am desperate for that). For others, it will be the exact reverse situation that appeals to them. To each his own. All well and good kkjason, but a major point of the post is about ex-pats too old to get any sort of health insurance in Thailand. What is your recommendation for them?

[kkjason]

As I said clearly, barring cancer and a few other major issues, health care in Thailand is cheap and quality to begin with - so what's the issue? I know many older ex-pats here who are here specifically because of the low cost of healthcare in comparison to their home country. Example: An American in Khon Kaen recently had a heart attack. He was rushed to the hospital and survived - needed to have heart surgery - had it done at a private hospital and recovery was about three weeks. All told, the bill came to 150,000 baht (less than $5,000 USD). Most health insurance policies in America today cost more than than just for the premium, before your copays and deductibles.

Beyond that, many health insurance companies will continue to provide coverage provided that you have a policy issued before the age of 65. An example is the policy I have with Russell Williams, and others I know who are with Cigna Global. So, older ex pats can continue with health insurance if they plan ahead. Again - it is personal preference. I still know many people who will argue that the healthcare in Thailand sucks. You can't convince them otherwise - so to them, my recommendation would be to stay away. For the sensible person, however, that should not be a reason to not live here. If you don't enjoy the lifestyle year round, then that would be enough to live somewhere else in my humble opinion.

[frequent]

As I said clearly, barring cancer and a few other major issues, health care in Thailand is cheap and quality to begin with - so what's the issue?I suspect - only a suspicion mind you - that my correspondent in Chiang Mai didn't plan to have bowel cancer; my friend with diabetes also didn't plan to develop a chronic condition that would cost him in excess of 1,000 baht a week in medication if he sourced his drugs in Thailand. None of us know what's around the corner (and that includes speeding drivers that can leave people as quadraplegics, for example). But perhaps Dr Pangloss is practising medicine in Khon Kaen?

[kkjason]

If one is going to worry about every little thing that can possibly come up in life then, no, moving to ANY country away from one's home country is not a good idea. It has nothing to Thailand per say. Also - as I said - insurance is most definitely a possibility if people plan ahead. I certainly did. I am not a spring chicken either. I'm old (and getting older by the day) and this is where I live. If I get cancer, I'm covered. Don't blame me because your 'correspondent' in Chiang Mai failed to plan properly for his old age. That is on him - not the rest of us.

[kkjason]

Also - as I clearly mentioned - it depends on where you come from. You mentioned 1,000 baht a week for medication in Thailand. Hell - in America - I know some people who pay more than that, even with insurance. So, again, what is your point? For some older ex-pats in Thailand, that would be considered a bargain. In addition, many people in western countries are without insurance. So, if they remain in their home country and get bowel cancer, what are they going to do?

[frequent]

Also - as I clearly mentioned - it depends on where you come from. You mentioned 1,000 baht a week for medication in Thailand. Hell - in America - I know some people who pay more than that, even with insurance. So, again, what is your point? For some older ex-pats in Thailand, that would be considered a bargain. In addition, many people in western countries are without insurance. So, if they remain in their home country and get bowel cancer, what are they going to do?I think we're all aware that the US is a 4th World country when it comes to looking after its own

[cdnmatt]

Just to throw this out there -- I don't really ever need medical attention, but my parents are getting to be that age. Gotta say, can't really say I'd rely on the healthcare system in Canada or the like, and from the stories I hear, US is no better especially when it comes to things like the price of prescription dugs.

My dad has been trying to get a GP for over 3 years, and still doesn't have one. He did get a latter a couple months ago informing him that no doctors are currently available, and to please be patient.

About a year or so ago my dad went in for minor knee surgery. They got him into a gown, put him on a stretcher, put him in the hallway, and asked him to wait there. About 1am rolled around, my mom hadn't heard anything yet so got a little worried, called the hospital and asked if the surgery is done, or what's up? They basically just told her, "oh whoops, we forgot all about him. his surgery was actually cancelled, and he's still laying in the hallway if you want to come pick him up". They totally forgot about him, and just left him in the hallway for about 8+ hours.

For about 3 years my mom was in constant agonizing pain and barely able to walk due to a bad hip. After years of waiting patiently in pain, she had enough, flew down to Mexico and got a hip replacement. She's back to doing great, walking the golf course, again. All the while, she's still waiting for a phone call to schedule a consultation to see whether or not she qualifies to be put on the waiting list for a hip replacement. She's not even on the list yet!

I don't have much to do with doctors, but for example, I went to the eye doctor here, and it was a 18 day wait to get in for a quick 15 minute check up. In Thailand we'd call to see the eye specialist and it was, "sure, you can come in tonight anytime after 5pm, or tomorrow before 11am". Same goes for dental surgery. I don't know how long I'd wait in Canada, but I'm sure it'd be more than 20 hours, which is all it was in Thailand to see the dentist at KK Ram. Hell, in Canada it's a 5 day wait just to get a haircut, much less see a specialist at a hospital.

[kittyboy]

I think we're all aware that the US is a 4th World country when it comes to looking after its own

I would say the USA is the leading third world country in looking after its own citizens. 4th world is a bit harsh.

[kittyboy]

I suspect - only a suspicion mind you - that my correspondent in Chiang Mai didn't plan to have bowel cancer; my friend with diabetes also didn't plan to develop a chronic condition that would cost him in excess of 1,000 baht a week in medication if he sourced his drugs in Thailand. None of us know what's around the corner (and that includes speeding drivers that can leave people as quadraplegics, for example). But perhaps Dr Pangloss is practising medicine in Khon Kaen?

I would rather die at a younger age living in an exotic place ..than die old hiding safe at home.
That isn't a choice many people would make but it is my choice.
You should like you want to criticize other people's choices or sound the alarm about the dangers of those choices. People don't need your criticism or your alarm ringing.
You can tell me about what you would do..I have zero interest in you telling others what to do, think, consider etc.

[kkjason]

I think we're all aware that the US is a 4th World country when it comes to looking after its own

You can say what you want about America - go ahead - no skin off my back. However, it is sad person who relies on their country to take care of themselves. What happened to personal responsibility? The amount of money that European countries hand out to people simply NOT too work is sickening beyond belief. Add to that the free housing that many immigrants get, while native born citizens are left to fend for themselves...well, I'll take my "fourth world" homeland anytime (even though I will never live there again).

[kittyboy]

You can say what you want about America - go ahead - no skin off my back. However, it is sad person who relies on their country to take care of themselves. What happened to personal responsibility? The amount of money that European countries hand out to people simply NOT too work is sickening beyond belief. Add to that the free housing that many immigrants get, while native born citizens are left to fend for themselves...well, I'll take my "fourth world" homeland anytime (even though I will never live there again).

Oh please...in the USA healthcare is so expensive many people can not afford healthcare. Hayek the intellectual founder of the modern conservative movement realized that and supported national healthcare. The USA is not a politically conservative nation it is a punitive nation... the national debate has been taken over by rich elites who favor punishing the undeserving poor.
I have heard conservatives in the USA say poor people should work harder to get medical insurance. If they don't have insurance too bad. Let them die. That is conservatism for many people in the USA. There are no basic human rights.

[frequent]

However, it is sad person who relies on their country to take care of themselves.In First World countries (that is, everywhere in Europe, Canada, Australia & New Zealand - everywhere except America) people contribute via the tax system. As the American judge Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr is reported to have said, "Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society". To the extent that Americans believe in self-reliance, it's clear they are not civilised

[aot871]

Hail to the chief and down with trump

[frequent]

You should like you want to criticize other people's choices or sound the alarm about the dangers of those choices. People don't need your criticism or your alarm ringing. You can tell me about what you would do..I have zero interest in you telling others what to do, think, consider etc.Having spent most of my working life, including 10 years in the USA, very profitably helping people make risk assessments, one of the things people definitely do need is someone who will shake them from their complacency from time to time, however uncomfortable they find it, and however much they resent it. I can describe America in one word - dysfunctional

[kittyboy]

Having spent most of my working life, including 10 years in the USA, very profitably helping people make risk assessments, one of the things people definitely do need is someone who will shake them from their complacency from time to time, however uncomfortable they find it, and however much they resent it. I can describe America in one word - dysfunctional

People are crap decision makers. Read anything in behavioral economics to confirm that view.

You cheapen you advice by giving it away for free.
Most people don't want unsolicited advice.

[kkjason]

In First World countries (that is, everywhere in Europe, Canada, Australia & New Zealand - everywhere except America) people contribute via the tax system. As the American judge Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr is reported to have said, "Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society". To the extent that Americans believe in self-reliance, it's clear they are not civilised

You are just trying to stir the pot - but what the hell- I'm game. Let's see - you mention Europe. Greece, Portugal, Spain - the list goes on - 30 percent unemployment. Jumps to over 50 percent when you are talking about young people under the age of 25. Immigrants get free housing. Native born citizens - unemployed - get nothing but an occasional handout when the government sees fit - which is not very often. Don't even try to say I don't know what I'm talking about. I've lived in each of the three countries I just mentioned, and still have many friends that are stuck there trying to get out.

Europe again - You famous EU can't even decide who is in and who is out. You are over taxed and get little to show for it. I have not idea what you are talking about when you say Americans pay no taxes. I sure had a lot of taxes taken out when I worked there - so I guess I was just dooped all of those years. Good to know. Canada - we all know what kind of healthcare system they get for their taxes. I know two Canadians here in Khon Kaen who, when they lived in Canada, hopped across the border to New York to get medical care. They gladly paid for it rather than wait the months it would have taken just to get an appointment in their 'tax funded plan'. Our own Matt - regular contributor - can tell you horror stories about what you get for healthcare in Canada. If that is what you get for your tax payer money - then you can have it.

Again - I know you are just stirring the pot - if not - then you really need to get real. If you will look at my earlier posting - I am the first to acknowledge that healthcare in America is crazy expensive. I am also a firm believer that, yes, you can make your own life work. Stop blaming the government for everything. I'm pretty sure if you stop for moment, you can write a long list of things you can't stand about your own government. So be it - live your own life and stop blaming other people and countries for your own self-inflicted misery.

[frequent]

Just to throw this out there -- I don't really ever need medical attention, but my parents are getting to be that age. Gotta say, can't really say I'd rely on the healthcare system in Canada or the like, and from the stories I hear, US is no better especially when it comes to things like the price of prescription drugs.I always found the US health system worked perfectly well, and the price of the drugs I needed not too bad. The problem is that the drug companies are in control and the government won't stand up to them as they do in some other countries eg. Australia's Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, to negotiate better prices. The one thing I did think was good about going to a general clinic was that I saw the practice nurse for most things, and only saw a doctor if the nurse assessed I needed greater expertise. The company I worked for paid my health insurance so I've no idea what it cost. When I go to a hospital in Thailand all the vital signs - weight, blood pressure, etc - are taken by the nurse whereas in some other countries the doctor does that - and a waste of their time it is. However I didn't think the quality of medicine was that great. I went to an ER at a major university teaching hospital in California with bleeding from the anus once, and was told absolutely and definitively that it was not hemorrhoids. The colonoscopy (I had to wait three weeks) determined absolutely and definitively that it was hemorrhoids. I happened to see the ER invoice - it was $4,000 (that didn't include the colonoscopy. I've had a colonoscopy elsewhere and it was barely four figures). However my experience of Thai hospitals (and that of my friends) is that the doctors haven't kept up with any professional development, and are between five and ten years behind their peers overseas

I gather that the shortage of general practitioners in North America (including Canada) is a failure of government regulations together with the enormous incomes medical specialists can command (another reason why health insurance is so costly). If you ever want to see how powerful a closed shop/trades union can be, you only have to watch the American Medical Association in action. The NRA have nothing on their lobbying abilities

[kkjason]

Hail to the chief and down with trump


Now that is one statement I will say a resounding CHEERS too!

[kkjason]

Oh please...in the USA healthcare is so expensive many people can not afford healthcare. Hayek the intellectual founder of the modern conservative movement realized that and supported national healthcare. The USA is not a politically conservative nation it is a punitive nation... the national debate has been taken over by rich elites who favor punishing the undeserving poor.
I have heard conservatives in the USA say poor people should work harder to get medical insurance. If they don't have insurance too bad. Let them die. That is conservatism for many people in the USA. There are no basic human rights.

So - people like you and I should pay for other people to get medical treatment? I don't think so. There is no simple answer to this 'debate' but to continue asking people who make money to pay for people that don't is just ludicrous. We are no longer living in the days of Robin Hood. I've worked hard my entire life so that I am NOT dependent on anyone else - certainly no my government - as I am older. Why should I be punished because others fail to do the same proper planning? Back to the original topic of moving to Thailand in old age - One should not move away from their home if they cannot afford to do so. If you can't afford 4,000 baht for life saving medicine, for example, then you have no right to come to come to another country and try to get them to take care of you.

In fact - Thailand is a great model for taking care of your own. They do not have a lot of money as a country. Retirement schemes are a joke here. How do they survive - family takes care of family. Imagine that. In America, you get a one way ticket to a nursing home when you are old if you have not planned. Now - that sucks.

[frequent]

I'm pretty sure if you stop for moment, you can write a long list of things you can't stand about your own government. Where is your evidence for this bizarre assertion?

[kittyboy]

You are just trying to stir the pot - but what the hell- I'm game. Let's see - you mention Europe. Greece, Portugal, Spain - the list goes on - 30 percent unemployment. Jumps to over 50 percent when you are talking about young people under the age of 25. Immigrants get free housing. Native born citizens - unemployed - get nothing but an occasional handout when the government sees fit - which is not very often. Don't even try to say I don't know what I'm talking about. I've lived in each of the three countries I just mentioned, and still have many friends that are stuck there trying to get out.

Europe again - You famous EU can't even decide who is in and who is out. You are over taxed and get little to show for it. I have not idea what you are talking about when you say Americans pay no taxes. I sure had a lot of taxes taken out when I worked there - so I guess I was just dooped all of those years. Good to know. Canada - we all know what kind of healthcare system they get for their taxes. I know two Canadians here in Khon Kaen who, when they lived in Canada, hopped across the border to New York to get medical care. They gladly paid for it rather than wait the months it would have taken just to get an appointment in their 'tax funded plan'. Our own Matt - regular contributor - can tell you horror stories about what you get for healthcare in Canada. If that is what you get for your tax payer money - then you can have it.

Again - I know you are just stirring the pot - if not - then you really need to get real. If you will look at my earlier posting - I am the first to acknowledge that healthcare in America is crazy expensive. I am also a firm believer that, yes, you can make your own life work. Stop blaming the government for everything. I'm pretty sure if you stop for moment, you can write a long list of things you can't stand about your own government. So be it - live your own life and stop blaming other people and countries for your own self-inflicted misery.

The conservative writings from the post ww 2 era discusses in detail the need for government to provide a framework for people. Including things like healthcare, education, transport infrastructure. Conservatism has been radicalized to the point where human beings are near commodities and if people are sick, old, or lacking money for basic human rights like food, shelter and healthcare...well fuck them..they are bad people who made bad decisions and they can die. Conservatives in my family spew that hate

[frequent]

So - people like you and I should pay for other people to get medical treatment?.That's exactly what health insurance does. Health insurers take premiums (taxes) from a large group of people knowing (on an actuarial basis) that the total premiums paid in any one year will cover the costs of treatment for any individual member. Every year that your premiums exceed the costs you incur and pass on to your insurer you are paying for other people to get medical treatment

[kkjason]

The conservative writings from the post ww 2 era discusses in detail the need for government to provide a framework for people. Including things like healthcare, education, transport infrastructure. Conservatism has been radicalized to the point where human beings are near commodities and if people are sick, old, or lacking money for basic human rights like food, shelter and healthcare...well fuck them..they are bad people who made bad decisions and they can die. Conservatives in my family spew that hate

I'm by no means a conservative - far from it - but I do believe in individual responsibility at some level. If people believe the system is broke - then go fix it. Have you actively lobbied for a new healthcare system? I know many people who have talked about how horrible the current system is (and I would tend to agree), but funny thing is that I know nobody who has actively set out to try to fix it. So, since that has not occurred, yes - I took matters and take care of myself and my family. I guess I am just stupid then for expecting others to do the same? I have a cousin who espouses your type of thinking. She has been on 'disability' for over 20 years. Funny thing is - she plays softball two night a week, smokes like a chimney, and spends her days trying to get more money out of the government. Again - why should my taxes go to pay for crap like that? My other cousin - her sister - works her ass off, pays taxes, and lives in near poverty. No wonder people the world over are looking for handouts. It's kind of nice having a government just give you everything you need without you having to work for it. My parents certainly never had a gig like that!

[frequent]

I have a cousin who espouses your type of thinking. She has been on 'disability' for over 20 years. Funny thing is - she plays softball two night a week, smokes like a chimney, and spends her days trying to get more money out of the government. Again - why should my taxes go to pay for crap like that? !Ah yes, find some exception and then claim that justifies the harsh attitude you champion because it "must" represent what everyone on welfare is like

[kittyboy]

I'm by no means a conservative - far from it - but I do believe in individual responsibility at some level. If people believe the system is broke - then go fix it. Have you actively lobbied for a new healthcare system? I know many people who have talked about how horrible the current system is (and I would tend to agree), but funny thing is that I know nobody who has actively set out to try to fix it. So, since that has not occurred, yes - I took matters and take care of myself and my family. I guess I am just stupid then for expecting others to do the same? I have a cousin who espouses your type of thinking. She has been on 'disability' for over 20 years. Funny thing is - she plays softball two night a week, smokes like a chimney, and spends her days trying to get more money out of the government. Again - why should my taxes go to pay for crap like that? My other cousin - her sister - works her ass off, pays taxes, and lives in near poverty. No wonder people the world over are looking for handouts. It's kind of nice having a government just give you everything you need without you having to work for it. My parents certainly never had a gig like that!

People in the USA have tried to fix healthcare and been stopped by the conservative machine.
I expect the USA government to help people get education and level the playing field for those who are not powerful.
I love the conservative mindset....INDIVIDUAL responsibility...anyone who needs help is a bloodsucking leech who should suffer.
Corporations and the wealthy over the last 40 years have changed the rules so it is harder to succeed. I know people who have died because of the USA healthcare system. They did not have health insurance . Many conservatives. Maybe yourself included...think too bad. They made bad choices. Fuck them. Let them die.

[scottish-guy]

Well said Frequent!

If kkjason or anybody else wants to get pissed about about so-called spongers then look no further than Amazon, Google, and the Family at the head of the UK (watching my words, Jellybean) - the trillions in taxes which are dodged by corporate entities and wealthy individuals places his cousin's "free" beer, fags, and tampons firmly in the "so microscopic that the Lord himself could not find it with a telescope" department.

[frequent]

Well said Frequent!

If kkjason or anybody else wants to get pissed about about so-called spongers then look no further than Amazon, Google, and the Family at the head of the UK (watching my words, Jellybean) - the trillions in taxes which are dodged by corporate entities and wealthy individuals places his cousin's "free" beer, fags, and tampons firmly in the "so microscopic that the Lord himself could not find it with a telescope" department.KKjason has yet to learn Socrates' great truth - "If you want to be wrong follow the masses". As you and I know, welfare recipients as a group can be represented by a statistical distribution, so you have to wonder where KKjason believes the spongers are - at the mean is what he seems to be saying. I'd have thought they're clustered around and beyond the third standard deviation from the mean

But then he's a man who can't even understand how insurance works ...

[kkjason]

People in the USA have tried to fix healthcare and been stopped by the conservative machine.
I expect the USA government to help people get education and level the playing field for those who are not powerful.
I love the conservative mindset....INDIVIDUAL responsibility...anyone who needs help is a bloodsucking leech who should suffer.
Corporations and the wealthy over the last 40 years have changed the rules so it is harder to succeed. I know people who have died because of the USA healthcare system. They did not have health insurance . Many conservatives. Maybe yourself included...think too bad. They made bad choices. Fuck them. Let them die.

I understand many people have tried to fix the system. I asked if you personally have made the effort? If so, then I applaud you. If not, the point you are trying to make is moot. Do not complain about a system if you are not willing to be an agent of change.

[kkjason]

KKjason has yet to learn Socrates' great truth - "If you want to be wrong follow the masses". As you and I know, welfare recipients as a group can be represented by a statistical distribution, so you have to wonder where KKjason believes the spongers are - at the mean is what he seems to be saying. I'd have thought they're clustered around and beyond the third standard deviation from the mean

But then he's a man who can't even understand how insurance works ...

Hey. Wait a minute. You don’t know me, yet you want to now sling insults at me. How very grown up of you. You must be so proud that you can sling mud. Bravo!

That being said, you and Scottish seem so ready to ridicule America. As I said, I can take it, yet you are unwilling to discuss the issues in Europe and other Western countries. Talk about hypocritical. The medical system in Sweden, for example, is so fractured and dysfunctional that thousands come to Thailsnd every year for care. Norway even pays for its citizens to get treatment here because they have acknowledged their own failures. In your way of thinking, these must be two shining examples of a taxpayer funded system. Again, look at yourself before insulting others.

[TaoR]

I set up and run an employer sponsored self funded insurance plan for 10 years and it amazes me how Americans (I am one) let their preconceived notions color their opinions. All health care involves pools some pools collect their income from employee paychecks and employer contributions and others from taxes. The idea that by paying a monthly invoice one is showing "individual responsibility" does not take into consideration that your monthly premiums are still pooled and that your premiums are going to pay the healthcare expenses of someone else. If your insurance is provided by an employer and if one of your coworkers has a serious illness and you are perfectly healthy then when renewal roles around your insurance premiums are going to increase; thus your premiums have nothing to do with your health and your healthcare costs at any given point in your life. Its all a pool, a pool of risk. Whether the cost of that risk is borne by an employer and its employees or by a nation as a whole is a concept Americans cannot understand. Americans are big on "individual responsibility" but still they refuse to allow healthcare providers to refuse treatment to those who cannot pay. Yes, I always loved the argument about "personal responsibility" like anyone actually is personally responsible for their true healthcare costs...its all a pool and it doesn't take a real serious medical emergency to make your paltry monthly premium look pathetic in light of the EOBS coming in showing tens of thousands of dollars in costs.

[a447]

..and the Family at the head of the UK (watching my words, Jellybean)

I'm pretty sure the lèse majeste laws in Thailand do not apply to the British royals, if that is who you are referring to.

[frequent]

Hey. Wait a minute. You don’t know me, yet you want to now sling insults at me. I'm merely inferring from what you have written, no insults intended. By the way, you seem incapable of providing any evidence of your assertion that "if you stop for moment, you can write a long list of things you can't stand about your own government". I find that a profoundly insulting comment since you appear to think I stoop to the level of the sort of people who delight in finding fault in their government and country and, moreover, are arrogant enough to believe that they can make a difference. Perhaps you haven't heard of the "Serenity Prayer" which begins "Give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change ...". It's trite, but it contains a worthwhile thought and is, I'd hazard, essentially Buddhist (not that I'm claiming to be One Of Them)

[frequent]

I'm pretty sure the lèse majeste laws in Thailand do not apply to the British royals, if that is who you are referring to.It's never worried arsenal, who LM's Betty all the time about something I wrote. However, I think you'd find that the Thai media only ever post adulatory reports of the British royals on the basis that in Thailand every royal in the world wherever they may be, dead or alive, is above criticism

[frequent]

I set up and run an employer sponsored self funded insurance plan for 10 years and it amazes me how Americans (I am one) let their preconceived notions color their opinions. All health care involves pools some pools collect their income from employee paychecks and employer contributions and others from taxes. The idea that by paying a monthly invoice one is showing "individual responsibility" does not take into consideration that your monthly premiums are still pooled and that your premiums are going to pay the healthcare expenses of someone else. If your insurance is provided by an employer and if one of your coworkers has a serious illness and you are perfectly healthy then when renewal roles around your insurance premiums are going to increase; thus your premiums have nothing to do with your health and your healthcare costs at any given point in your life. Its all a pool, a pool of risk. Whether the cost of that risk is borne by an employer and its employees or by a nation as a whole is a concept Americans cannot understand. Americans are big on "individual responsibility" but still they refuse to allow healthcare providers to refuse treatment to those who cannot pay. Yes, I always loved the argument about "personal responsibility" like anyone actually is personally responsible for their true healthcare costs...its all a pool and it doesn't take a real serious medical emergency to make your paltry monthly premium look pathetic in light of the EOBS coming in showing tens of thousands of dollars in costs.

I offer up this link (https://www.vox.com/2014/9/2/6089693/health-care-facts-whats-wrong-american-insurance) for an assessment of what's wrong with American health insurance

[frequent]

I understand many people have tried to fix the system. I asked if you personally have made the effort? If so, then I applaud you. If not, the point you are trying to make is moot. Do not complain about a system if you are not willing to be an agent of change.Yes, all those college kids agitating for greater gun control, they're certainly making a difference as "agents for change" aren't they

[kittyboy]

I understand many people have tried to fix the system. I asked if you personally have made the effort? If so, then I applaud you. If not, the point you are trying to make is moot. Do not complain about a system if you are not willing to be an agent of change.

And what would you consider a personal effort to change the system? Should I appoint myself healthcare czar and rile the healthcare world by fiat?
I worked I. Healthcare for many years and volunteered as an hiv counselor for 15 years. I lobbied my elected resmpresentarives for years for national healthcare. I lobby my insurance company, doctor, family and friends at all opportunities. I am lobbying on this board for a sensible approach to healthcare on the USA. Ahh...do I pass your test?
Have you personally tried to fix the USA?

[NitNoi]

I am shocked that citizens in first world countries can't quickly see a GP. The Australian Medicare system does seem like a Utopia by comparison. Sure, elective surgery like hip replacements will see you on a waiting list but the wait for a GP consultation in Sydney will be less than an hour - and many practices "bulk bill" so there is no charge.

Here in the Philippines, I live in a provincial town. I know several people who have died because they (and their family) can't afford dialysis. I would be surprised if this is common in the US or other countries that are being denigrated here.

[kittyboy]

I am shocked that citizens in first world countries can't quickly see a GP. The Australian Medicare system does seem like a Utopia by comparison. Sure, elective surgery like hip replacements will see you on a waiting list but the wait for a GP consultation in Sydney will be less than an hour - and many practices "bulk bill" so there is no charge.

Here in the Philippines, I live in a provincial town. I know several people who have died because they (and their family) can't afford dialysis. I would be surprised if this is common in the US or other countries that are being denigrated here.

In the USA if you can not provide proof of insurance a gp will turn you away from the office. No insurance no doctor visit unless you pay cash upfront.
People resort to going to the emergency room at hospitals but will get turned away for non emergencies.

[paborn]

I can't understand why people find the concept of insurance so difficult to understand. When I first moved to South Florida from New York I was informed that my house was in a flood zone ( from the canals that regulate the waters ) , later, I was informed that a determination was made that it is not. I still pay the insurance in case the new information is wrong. Just as I pay fire insurance and hurricane insurance and an umbrella policy to protect mny assets. All the while hoping I never have to use them and fully aware that my money will help to reimburse those not so fortunate. For God's sake it's called "insurance" to insure that coverage is there. It has nothing to do with anyone's self rightous feelings about how hard they worked.

[TaoR]

The trouble is those are facts and everyone in the United States can give a whole litany of examples of what is wrong with our system. But when you bring up "healthcare for all" you get hit with "I believe in personal responsibility." When you bring up how we could implement something like the Swiss Healthcare system (which is the only option I see that cannot be called "socialized medicine" then you hear nothing but comments about Europe and how we have the best healthcare in the world.

The reality is even with health insurance, even with the high cost for insurance policies, with the cost of copays, maximum out of pocket limits, and all the other fees and penalties healthcare, even for those with insurance, is still the number one reason for people declaring bankruptcy in the United States.

[paborn]

The trouble is those are facts and everyone in the United States can give a whole litany of examples of what is wrong with our system. But when you bring up "healthcare for all" you get hit with "I believe in personal responsibility." When you bring up how we could implement something like the Swiss Healthcare system (which is the only option I see that cannot be called "socialized medicine" then you hear nothing but comments about Europe and how we have the best healthcare in the world.

The reality is even with health insurance, even with the high cost for insurance policies, with the cost of copays, maximum out of pocket limits, and all the other fees and penalties healthcare, even for those with insurance, is still the number one reason for people declaring bankruptcy in the United States.
Absolutely, a substantial portion of the credit card debt in the US is for medicne and medical services

[arsenal]

Healthcare, free at the point of delivery is a standard within western Europe. However it comes with a very hefty price tag both in monetary and social terms. In The UK people use the media to get what they feel is their entitlement while others use the same media to stoke up anger at immigrants receiving free treatment despite having paid nothing in. Norway is usually touted as being the Utopia for such matters but the cost of living is eye wateringly expensive with a Big Mac meal costing 11 euros and anti-biotics 24 euros. No easy answers to healthcare.

https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/country/norway?currency=EUR

[frequent]

I am shocked that citizens in first world countries can't quickly see a GP. The Australian Medicare system does seem like a Utopia by comparison. Sure, elective surgery like hip replacements will see you on a waiting list but the wait for a GP consultation in Sydney will be less than an hour - and many practices "bulk bill" so there is no charge.

Here in the Philippines, I live in a provincial town. I know several people who have died because they (and their family) can't afford dialysis. I would be surprised if this is common in the US or other countries that are being denigrated here.

My favourite Australian health-related advertisement is this one. I'm sure it will resonate with many of our members

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTIWjR2GpFo

[poshglasgow]

Just to throw this out there -- I don't really ever need medical attention, but my parents are getting to be that age. Gotta say, can't really say I'd rely on the healthcare system in Canada or the like, and from the stories I hear, US is no better especially when it comes to things like the price of prescription dugs.

My dad has been trying to get a GP for over 3 years, and still doesn't have one. He did get a latter a couple months ago informing him that no doctors are currently available, and to please be patient.

About a year or so ago my dad went in for minor knee surgery. They got him into a gown, put him on a stretcher, put him in the hallway, and asked him to wait there. About 1am rolled around, my mom hadn't heard anything yet so got a little worried, called the hospital and asked if the surgery is done, or what's up? They basically just told her, "oh whoops, we forgot all about him. his surgery was actually cancelled, and he's still laying in the hallway if you want to come pick him up". They totally forgot about him, and just left him in the hallway for about 8+ hours.

For about 3 years my mom was in constant agonizing pain and barely able to walk due to a bad hip. After years of waiting patiently in pain, she had enough, flew down to Mexico and got a hip replacement. She's back to doing great, walking the golf course, again. All the while, she's still waiting for a phone call to schedule a consultation to see whether or not she qualifies to be put on the waiting list for a hip replacement. She's not even on the list yet!

I don't have much to do with doctors, but for example, I went to the eye doctor here, and it was a 18 day wait to get in for a quick 15 minute check up. In Thailand we'd call to see the eye specialist and it was, "sure, you can come in tonight anytime after 5pm, or tomorrow before 11am". Same goes for dental surgery. I don't know how long I'd wait in Canada, but I'm sure it'd be more than 20 hours, which is all it was in Thailand to see the dentist at KK Ram. Hell, in Canada it's a 5 day wait just to get a haircut, much less see a specialist at a hospital.

I went to see my doctor the other day, as I had a sore eye. He said, "Right, go behind the screens and take off all your clothes."
"Sorry?"
"Go behind the screens and take off all your clothes."
"But, I've come in about my sore eye."
"I know, so go behind the screens and take off all your clothes."

I did as he asked and then stood there behind the screens with my clothes in my arms. "Okay doctor, I've taken off all my clothes so where I shall put them?"
"Put them over there on the couch next to mine," He replied excitedly.

[frequent]

Then there's the patient who was told by the doctor that he needs a rectal test to examination his prostate. The doctor then explained that that would require a finger up the patient's arse. The patient than asked for two fingers as "I value a second opinion"

And the man who took his wife to the doctor because "Ever since I taught her to do it doggy style I can't stop her chasing cars"

[poshglasgow]

Then there's the patient who was told by the doctor that he needs a rectal test to examination his prostate. The doctor then explained that that would require a finger up the patient's arse. The patient than asked for two fingers as "I value a second opinion"

And the man who took his wife to the doctor because "Ever since I taught her to do it doggy style I can't stop her chasing cars"

Excellent! Made me laugh.

[scottish-guy]

True story - I took my elderly father to the GP and after listening to his prostate related symptoms, the GP took him to an examination couch and pulled a screen round while he did the finger up the arse routine.

After it was over the GP went back behind the desk and my dad came and sat with me on the other side, facing him.

"Any questions"? the GP asked

My dad replied deadpan - "Yes, it that us engaged now"?

[Nirish guy]

Also true story - Quite recently went to a male doctor for my (first) prostate exam, he sat and took my history etc, where in the course of that conversation I mentioned I was gay etc. When finished he then said 'ok so just remove your trousers and pants for me and prepare yourself and I'll do the exam now" - after turning away to find a glove he then turned back to find me standing in front of him, bending over with my ass in the air ! He then asked in a slightly shocked voice "Hmm what are you doing there? and I replied "I'm ready' to which he almost laughed out loud and said " hmmm, ahhh no, normally we just need you lying up on the couch with your knees pulled up into your chest actually" What could I say as to a gay man basically I'd heard "ok, assume the position" so just "assumed" that was the correct one ! :-) OPPS ! :-)

[arsenal]

This place (Pattaya) is lovely. Quiet, unhurried and leaves you with a lovely sense of well being. Recommended.

http://www.rasayanaretreat.com/