Northern Ireland under pressure after historic abortion vote

[bobsaigon2]

AFP May 27, 2018 Pressure mounted on Sunday for British-ruled Northern Ireland to liberalise its strict abortion laws after a historic referendum in the neighbouring Republic of Ireland overturned its ban.

More than 66 percent of voters in the Republic of Ireland backed repealing the constitutional ban on terminations, triggering scenes of tearful jubilation in Dublin after an emotional campaign.

British lawmakers said Northern Ireland, where abortions are only allowed if the physical or mental health of the mother are at severe risk, should now follow suit. Women who have unsanctioned abortions in Northern Ireland face life imprisonment under 19th-century legislation still in place.
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But was this carefully thought out? How will this affect the Irish economy? Abortion rights obviously means fewer children born to Irish women.
The home construction industry will suffer with less demand for five bedroom houses containing bunk rooms. The sweet shops near schools will see a reduction in patronage. The clothing industry will be forced to cut back on children’s items. The supermarkets will face diminished demand, resulting in shorter opening hours, reduction in staff, reduction of quantities ordered from wholesalers and farmers. McDonalds will be left with a surplus of Happy Meal items. Seminaries will no longer produce an excess of priests who formerly were a major Irish export.

And looking a bit further into the future of unrestricted abortion, what about Guinness, pubs, craftsmen who produce banjos and Uilleann pipes, and the restaurants that specialise in First Communion brunches?

While the Irish medical practitioners may see a noticeable increase in abortion requests, by medical tourists from Northern Ireland, Malta, Vatican City, Poland, etc., there is still the question of how to compensate for the expected lower birth rate in Ireland?

The obvious solution to maintaining current population growth is to encourage immigration. The Irish people just need a referendum to decide which nationalities they would like to welcome. Maybe more citizens of Poland or Portugal? Some from North and southern Africa to lend variety to the population mix? This could be a very interesting sociological/ethnological process for the Irish people.

[Nirish guy]

Abortion rights obviously means fewer children born to Irish women. ........ The Irish people just need a referendum to decide which nationalities they would like to welcome. .

Your assumption above about giving people rights will result in fewer children is flawed as any mother who decided to proceed with an abortion simply went to England to have one ( or god forbid some back street illegal clinic), all that will change in that regard now is geography.

I'm assuming then that your actual main point was some comment or light joke about immigration perhaps ?

If so could I politely and very respectfully suggest that THIS topic is one that SGF just doesn't need to discuss / rip apart with jokes and jibes and it's best just to leave that entire topic to facebook to do that too, as no matter what ones personal thoughts on abortion etc it does still involve the taking of life ( depending on your view again I accept) and because of that then surely this is just a topic we can pass on here on this gay board and leave it to others to play around with elsewhere ? - again respectfully and just IMHO of course.

[bobsaigon2]

After submitting my initial post in this thread, I prepared the following in case there was any misunderstanding. But I suppose you are right, Nirish. Probably not something to be joked about, at least not by someone who does not have an Irish passport.

I intended my post to be satirical. We will not see any of the dire consequences in the fabric of Irish society that some clergy predicted before the vote. In fact, there will be no noticeable change in the lives of Irish citizens. The economy will not suffer, the birth rate will not plummet. The number of women choosing abortion will not be significantly greater now. Attendance at RC and C of I services will remain steady unless it diminishes for reasons not related to abortion. Life will go on. Pubs will survive, McDonalds will see no need to cancel their Happy Meals. The only change that will occur is that Irish women will now conveniently terminate a pregnancy that they, and not others, deem unwanted or dangerous to their health. That is as it should be.

[Nirish guy]

Absolutely correct there - only difference might be less children for the priests to sexually abuse or dead baby's bodies for them and the nuns to throw into septic tanks now perhaps - and to think they have the cheek to lecture others about what's right and wrong for their lives.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/order-nuns-dumped-up-800-9979348

(sorry i couldn't resist - as it's stories like the above that had people angry and quite prepared to tell the church to go get stuffed as they tried to moralise and shame ordinary decent people into casting a "no" vote it appears).

[bobsaigon2]

That was a very sobering article. I’m sure I must have read the story last year but it had escaped my mind, and on the maps I still see Bon Secours Hospitals. I didn’t make the connection, and even if I had I would not have understood why the nuns had not been immediately disbanded.

I won’t make any further comments on internal Irish affairs, but as a born and bred Catholic with 16+ years of Catholic schooling, perhaps I am qualified to question the relevance of (any?) religion to human life. For the first time in history, a pope has apologised for sexual abuse by Catholic clergy. It took a couple of thousand years to get that far?? The leadership of the Church has failed miserably and demonstrably in Asia-Pacific (Guam and the Philippines), South and North America, Europe. If I were ever to attend church again, I’d be considering the Anglicans or the Lutherans, or for a non-intrusive, free-from-predatory-clergy organization, the Quakers.

[Khor tose]

For whatever reason the Irish voted for personal freedom over dogma, I admire their choice. Here in the US, out present government is busy trying to reverse years of liberalism. As our megalomania president would say, "how sad".

How hard is it, to immigrate to Ireland?

[Smiles]

How hard is it, to immigrate to Ireland?
Why not just come back to Thailand? You've squattered there before (though you didn't learn much), and the army dictatorship is generally benign.

[scottish-guy]

...any mother who decided to proceed with an abortion simply went to England to have one ...

...and paid for it as England will not treat them under the NHS!

Scotland however has been providing free NHS abortions to these Northern Irish women for some time (as has Wales)

[Nirish guy]

?? Sg accordingly to google / BBC news England has been saying for that since around June last year and Scotland since around November 17 also ( not that it matters as I dont intend to be using their services anytime soon of course)

Source : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-41879520

[scottish-guy]

Fair enough - thanks for clarification and happy to be corrected

But like yourself I always take precautions and I find that "doing it" whilst standing in a bucket of water has worked so far

[Nirish guy]

Funny the priest always told me that as long as I ate the mars bar he gave me after he'd finished I'd be fine and I'd never get pregnant from what he was doing - and you know what, he was RIGHT it seems, they aren't half clever those priests !

[scottish-guy]

The way I heard it you're actually a Muslim and you just went round to the Catholic Church and pretended to be one for the sex

:D

[latintopxxx]

strange world we live in, all these smiling people celebrating the fact that they can now murder their kids....something that even cold blooded crocs dont do...

[Nirish guy]

Of course the term "murder" would imply an illegal act, which a legal abortion within the defined time limits is not. No doubt we could get in that whole discussion but perhaps not eh.

My view is that until we've perhaps walked a mile in the shoes of the women who feel that they have to go through such a thing, I dont think it's for us to judge - and using terms such as "murderers" is of course doing just that. Anyway as I said above, there are a thousand fun topics we can and do discuss here on this gay board, surely this is one we can simply "not" maybe eh.....

[scottish-guy]

Has there ever been more irony on display than LatintopXXX attempting to take the moral high ground?

:D

[latintopxxx]

oh dear, dont get me wrong, Im "OK" with abortion but lets not pretend that its not government sanctioned murder, and why are people celebrating it, bit like adams family humour.
In fact in some situations I fully support it, there are certain suburbs packed full of solo mothers living on benefits paid with my tax money, I would arrange mobile abortion clinics so as to have door to door service and give each pregnant parasite solo mum a crate of beer and $50 to terminate the pregnancy, huge cost saving.

[Nirish guy]

Missed the last part eh re..... "there are a thousand fun topics we can and do discuss here on this gay board, surely this is one we can simply "not" maybe eh....."

Oh well, as you seem intent on wanting to go down that path then I'll just leave you to it. Best of luck with this jovial topic thread.

[latintopxxx]

...but nirish...u were the very first to reply....?!?!

[scottish-guy]

...there are certain suburbs packed full of solo mothers living on benefits paid with my tax money, I would arrange mobile abortion clinics so as to have door to door service and give each pregnant parasite solo mum a crate of beer and $50 to terminate the pregnancy, huge cost saving.

Is your real name Eugene Icks?

[Nirish guy]

I think you'll find my comment was the urge that we didn't get into the debate / discussion about abortion per se ( such as calling people murderers etc), aside from that I merely corrected factual info without passing any comment or judgement on the act itself.

[arsenal]

This is a free and open forum NIrish and members are free to discuss all and any subjects * with or without your approval.

* 2 well known exceptions.

[Nirish guy]

What kept you !? But hey you’re right, no one is disputing that fact of course so hey you go right ahead and knock yourself out !discussing the “murder” of babies ( or not) depending on your views as I’m sure your take on women’s rights and abortion / “murder” of babies in general then will be gripping and a real crowd pleaser on this our little gay board of chuckles and laughs. So, do carry on. We’re all ears.

[frequent]

oh dear, dont get me wrong, Im "OK" with abortion but lets not pretend that its not government sanctioned murder, and why are people celebrating it, bit like adams family humour.Do you have the same attitude towards, say, euthanasia or war or the shoot-to-kill policies of the police in certain circumstances, all government-sanctioned where legal? Theoretically I’m not opposed to the death penalty for some crimes, although in practice it’s been shown that people can be imprisoned on less than perfect evidence that has later been proven to be wrong

[arsenal]

No desire NIrish. My point is made and I'm glad we agree on it.

[Nirish guy]

No desire NIrish. My point is made and I'm glad we agree on it.


Your point is and was never in dispute so it's a bit of a moot point. I suggested we respectfully moved on to another topic as this one can be so toxic, but those like yourself who wish to keep it open and live by commenting you go right ahead there, good luck with that.

[arsenal]

:yes:

[Nirish guy]

I love it when you say that, it's the most sensible posts you ever make, PLEASE do carry on in that very same vein on every post from now on won't you ?

[latintopxxx]

frequent, as long as you are an adult then Im OK with your decision to euthanise yourself, its your life so please go ahead and switch the lights off if you so desire. Now if you need help with that then no one (like a doctor) should be forced to assist.
My issue with baby murder is that the innocent defenseless child has no say in the matter, its all up to the host. The hypocrisy involved becomes blatantly clear if the father decides to abort then he can be charged with a serious crime ...but not the female host should it decide to do so.

[arsenal]

Nirish wrote.
"I love it when you say that, it's the most sensible posts you ever make, PLEASE do carry on in that very same vein on every post from now on won't you ?"

:yes:

[frequent]

frequent, as long as you are an adult then Im OK with your decision to euthanise yourself, its your life so please go ahead and switch the lights off if you so desire. Now if you need help with that then no one (like a doctor) should be forced to assist.
My issue with baby murder is that the innocent defenseless child has no say in the matter, its all up to the host. The hypocrisy involved becomes blatantly clear if the father decides to abort then he can be charged with a serious crime ...but not the female host should it decide to do so.My view is that there is no such thing as "right to life" unless and until the foetus has survived birth by itself, and all my other views about life and death and euthanasia follow from that. Not all human beings have, for example, the ability to turn off their own life support machine; a doctor must do that, preferably with the consent of the family but sometimes on the instruction of the Courts. Presumably you are not aware of the well-documented fact that King George V was euthanased by his doctor on the implied consent of his family so that his death would be reported in a quality newspaper (The Times) rather than lingering on and running the risk of having his death reported in the ghastly low-life afternoon newspapers

Using the word "murder" simply inserts an unnecessarily emotive tone to the debate

[Nirish guy]

The hypocrisy involved becomes blatantly clear if the father decides to abort then he can be charged with a serious crime ...but not the female host should it decide to do so.

You're obviously totally unaware of the law as it stands in both Ireland (soon to be changed due to their referendum) and that STILL exists as is here in Northern Ireland in that the mother CAN absolutely be charged with a CRIMINAL offence simply for having an abortion "here' * even if she could get one which she cant legally).

This is a stance that the fully supported by the DUP (the DUP being the party who are currently propping up the current UK Government - for now).

[scottish-guy]

NIrish, you are of course 100% correct as you ought to be - living there!!

However what I fail to understand is this: If a pregant woman in NI wants to facilitate an abortion (a CRIMINAL offence as you say) she simply goes to the mainland and avails of the facilities there, right? My point is - why is she not charged with said criminal offence when she returns?

If I compare it to sex tourism - if you do something abroad or on holiday which would be deemed a criminal offence at home then should the authorities find out about it you are absolutely liable to prosecution on your return.

It makes even less sense when you consider that if you misbehave in that manner on holiday then there is rarely Hard (no pun intended) evidence of it, but in the case of an abortion it is all recorded.

Other than the blatant hypocrisy and sheer NIMBYism of the DUP "We'll keep it illegal here but if you nip over the other side of the water for it we'll turn a blind eye" - is there any legal reason for this anomaly that you know of?

[latintopxxx]

scotty...wakey wakey...in some countries crimes, including those of a sexual nature, can and have been prosecuted upon returning home.

[scottish-guy]

That was my entire fucking point!

In between wanking off over your entirely imaginary/heavily embellished escapades, can you please try to keep up


... if you do something abroad or on holiday which would be deemed a criminal offence at home then should the authorities find out about it you are absolutely liable to prosecution on your return...

[Nirish guy]

However what I fail to understand is this: If a pregant woman in NI wants to facilitate an abortion (a CRIMINAL offence as you say) she simply goes to the mainland and avails of the facilities there, right? My point is - why is she not charged with said criminal offence when she returns?

The honest answer to that is I don't know and I have to admit to asking myself the same question as I typed my previous post. I "think" that is the whole point of the campaign to marry up the law as it IS a total anomaly and one that makes absolutely no sense.

I know just last week at a recent protest here last week a few woman purposefully digested "abortion pills" to in order to end their pregnancies in front of the press and in front of a senior police man ( I very much doubt they were either pregnant and nor were they eating anything stronger than paracetamol btw hopefully !) but their goal was to attempt to get arrested to force a court case - and interestingly the police officer declined their invite to arrest and simply cautioned them for the "offence".

So, even THAT shows the law up to be an ass and totally unworkable - which I'm guessing why if a woman goes to England ( where it is legal to have an abortion) then no one here either wants or has the time or inclination to prosectute afterwards.

Saying that there was a woman prosectuted just last year for giving abortion pills to her daughter, but the daughter was 15 so I'm guessing it was more to do with that then the actual act of assisting in general perhaps - but my point is that she WAS reported by her GP and a prosectution did follow. however the case was challenged by human rights groups and leave to appeal was granted. Likewise the Prosectution Service here in N.I confirmed just a few weeks ago and (for the first time) that they will now not seek to prosecute any medical professionals who give out information or advice on travelling to England for terminations. So it seems that just about everyone has realised that the law is now unworkable hence the calls for it to be changed.

That's the best answer I can muster on that one as it doesn't really make any sense to me either and is why I think women here are asking that the law be amended to stop them becoming on paper "criminals".