Learning Thai.

[FarangRuMak]

After 12 years coming and going to Thailand the only real regret I have is my low standard of Thai.
I excell in certain small areas; in the beer bars and ggbars I have a full vocabulary for some reason but when I'm in the real world I keep asking the laundry lady how much it is to wash a bag of 'Tigers' instead of 'Shirts' etc.
I blame MYSELF mainly but I also blame the SCHOOLS.
I've tried 2 schools (40 hrs each) and I've had a preliminary session with a third.
In each case it was all about the money and very little about facilitating learning the language.
We have a few accomplished Thai Language speakers here.
I would be grateful if they could share an account of their learning journey.

[christianpfc]

I posted my experiences here
https://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/showthread.php?12885-Twelve-months-of-study-of-Thai-language-%D1%82%D0%20%D0%A3-A-success-story
and elsewhere.

My knowledge of Thai is indispensable for traveling alone, I would not want to rely on English, and I can communicate everything I need fluently. But it's not so much a help in picking up boys: my social skills suck, and speaking the language can't compensate for that.

For learning a language, talent plays an important role. When speaking English with Thais, there is a wide range, from being able to utter a few words to fluent basic communication. All with the same system of teaching.

There is nobody to blame, you just don't have the talent, just like I don't have a talent to play football. The only difference is that I don't want to play football, don't have to play football, don't need to play football.

[samebb]

When a Thai person replies to you in English, have some fun and make them tell you, and teach you, to say it in Thai. Do that 10 times a day, for everything you do, and you grasp things quite quickly.

If only we could do that with the bar boys. Sadly most of them are not Thai and learning from them can lead to funny situations (trust me)

[christianpfc]

I'm a visual learner. Listening and repeating works poorly for me, I need to have it written down in Thai to understand and to reproduce. Whereas a talented Farang friend became fluent in spoken Thai, and only later learnt to read and write.

[FarangRuMak]

When a Thai person replies to you in English, have some fun and make them tell you, and teach you, to say it in Thai. Do that 10 times a day, for everything you do, and you grasp things quite quickly.

If only we could do that with the bar boys. Sadly most of them are not Thai and learning from them can lead to funny situations (trust me)
I can relate to your last point.
I visited a bar in Vientiane, Lao Lann Chang, about 8 years ago.
To my astonishment I could follow a lot of the conversation between the staff.
I didn't understand at the time that most of my Thai acquaintances and friends were from Issan and not from "Siam" as such, so I pick up a lot of Lao from them.
What frustrates me is that I understand the rules of Thai grammar ie I can group in terms of 'classes' and tonal rules etc but that's no help to me on the street.
Basically if I initiate the conversation and therefore control it I do quite well- in fact I get compliments from the Thais.
But as soon as Thais start up among themselves or with me I'm lost.
But thank y'all for the tips.
Back to the drawing board.
PS I take the point about talent.
Who said
"the only thing standing between people and success is talent"?

[joe552]

I give up FRM, who said it?

[newalaan2]

Basically if I initiate the conversation and therefore control it I do quite well. But as soon as Thais start up among themselves or with me I'm lost

Yes me too, except when bf and certain of his friends whom I have listened to over the years and picked up their nuances are chatting. My 'thai' is mostly Lao/issan and have to adjust words to suit where I am. Pattaya is fine for Lao/issan, Bkk I have to adjust to be polite. Asking for the bill Issan/Pattaya 'Gep Tang' is fine but bkk it's best with simply 'check bin.

When listening to Thai I think like us when we are back home we use abbreviated language, local language and words and this is what the Thais seem to do. They seem to adjust when you start the conversation to take account of our difficulty, but bf could use a Thai sentence when addressing me and I understand, he uses the same sentence when on the phone to other Thais and it seems completely different.

The only reason I started learn Thai at the very start was really just to confirm and double check things, simple things like how much for this....yee-sip baht/20 baht....and I would repeat yee-sip mai? just to confirm, as the first couple trips there were SO many misunderstandings it was frustrating as you thought they had taken in what you said, but they would merely say 'yes' to anything and deliver what they 'thought' you said/wanted. After the first year or so using books I got lazy and thereafter simply repeated the words I heard around me, be it Bkk Thai, Issan etc..

For me what also helped greatly was after the first trip I was hooked on their music, karaokes, VCD discs etc, I played guitar and it was much the same chord sequences as western stuff etc but had to make an effort to get the words/lyrics correct, and so also wanted to know the meaning of the songs I was singing and it moved on from there. I have a number of words/phrases which are remembered as two different entities for the same meaning Thai and Issan-lao and just use as appropriate. When you do understand many of the Lao words you can be a bit sneaky and listen to waiters talking openly about you right in front of you, have done that many a time. when they realise you can understand some of what they say their reaction is priceless. Something like..the boys asking eachother in Thai/Lao 'how old do you think he is?' (me sitting 2 feet from them) and I'll reply I'm 29! in Thai.

But it does make a huge difference to the enjoyment of a visit with some Thai/issan under your belt.

[FarangRuMak]

I give up FRM, who said it?
I haven't a clue who wrote it but I don't think he would do well as a teacher in a school where everone passes the exam and where everyone goes home with a medal on Sports' Day.

[fedssocr]

I took a couple of Thai language classes my local adult education department offered many years ago. Among the problems was that it met once a week for a couple of hours. And I never could get the tones. I just don't really hear it because I suppose my ear isn't trained for it and so I can't reproduce them. I agree that some people just have more talent for languages.

But learning numbers was pretty easy and days of the week and basic stuff like that. So I can provide a word here or there and maybe a simple sentence. But if someone speaks to me in Thai chances are low that I will understand much of anything. I listen to quite a bit of Thai music and listen to Thai radio online a couple of hours a day at work. But without know what they're saying it's just background sound as much as anything.

And written Thai I've never really attempted. I had a friend at work who visited Thailand for a couple of weeks and claimed he figured out written Thai in that time.

[latintopxxx]

learning thai??? why?? shouldnt the service providers speak YOUR language....YOU the one that is paying???

[francois]

latintopxxx,are you trying to derail this topic?

[joe552]

Of course he is, francois. It's what he does best. I'd love to read an actual trip report from latinpox that goes a bit beyond the sex. At this stage we all know his style. But where does he stay, where does he eat, etc? The kind of thing that interests people beyond the ponies.

[FarangRuMak]

learning thai??? why?? shouldnt the service providers speak YOUR language....YOU the one that is paying???
Christian's reply gives the lie to this response.
Can't you see that you'll be all the better at what you do with fluent Thai?
How many times have you stood naked and confused when the twosome walked out saying in Thai?;
"ff-cking hell! he ain't sticking that thing into us!"
That happens to me a lot.

[bobsaigon2]

Most people going to a foreign country try to learn at least a few words or phrases in order to communicate, or establish a rapport, to make the encounter more pleasant, or just to acknowledge the other person's status as a fellow human being. At least that's the way we tree-huggers do it. If one is just riding ponies or other livestock, then certainly there would be no need to learn any foreign words.
:)

[dinagam]

In the last case, Latin should be the useful one.

[joe552]

Like it or not, gentlemen, he has managed to derail this thread, as so many before. Sorry, FRM,, not a lot of useful info on learning Thai

Here's an idea for the mods - can they move any posts that are not directly connected to the OP I include myself in that regard) to another thread? Maybe I should have started another thread, as I really haven't thought about it before.

[latintopxxx]

...oh dear..all the PC crap i gotta put up with...so i travel to their country...spend my hard earned cash on them..but so I dont feel guilty i should learn their language...might as well slit my wrists...would be less painful...

[christianpfc]

Like it or not, gentlemen, he has managed to derail this thread, as so many before.
You need at least two people to derail a thread, one who throws out a bait, and one more more who bite. Don't feed the troll!

[FarangRuMak]

Are Germans naturally good at languages?
I used to meet a big German gentleman at the little outside bar attached to the hotel (Elephant?) in Sunee.
He spoke fluent Thai.
He told me that he was lucky to have men a Thai teacher about his own age who gave him total immersion in Spoken Thai for many months before he ever wrote a word.
The AUA school near the Sports Ground one stop up from Sala Deang in Bangkok has a similar approach.
I think it's the way to go.
But you won't get this from the bored (& boring) fat ladies in their textbook obsessed language schools.

[bobsaigon2]

AUA has had a pretty good reputation for a generation or more. Aside from the Thai language classes, there are lots of Thai boys around the building who go there to enhance their English.

[a447]

Did you ever get the chance to test their oral skills, Bob?

[FarangRuMak]

AUA has had a pretty good reputation for a generation or more. Aside from the Thai language classes, there are lots of Thai boys around the building who go there to enhance their English.

These guys are probably rich kids.
They have eyes only for their peers as you would expect.
I see them travelling 1st class on Thai Airways.
Pretty obnoxious bunch.
Give me a Thai from the 90% income cohort any time before these brats.
Sh-t I think I've just derailed my own thread.

[bobsaigon2]

a447:-- I can only say that when I think back (not recommended), I am overwhelmed by grief and regret at opportunities lost. For many years I had a Thai partner and it was not until we separated that I had a chance to survey the oral skills of anyone else. I did my research with the Twilight boys.

Now, to segue, more or less, to the topic at hand:-- Learning Thai or any other language is either facilitated or limited by a variety of factors in the mix of physical, emotional and psychological learning strategies. The successful learners of Thai can distinguish tones, remember vocabulary, pronunciation and grammar, and are not reluctant to express themselves in Thai. On the other side are the people like myself:-- tones might be recognized, but rarely remembered. Vocabulary and grammar are elusive. There is a reluctance to try out the spoken language for fear of making mistakes. Likelihood of such people successfully learning even basic Thai is close to zero.

And for the seniors amongst us, there is no getting away from the fact that short term memory just does not function very well. It's a physiological problem, not something that can remedied. At a certain age, we just start losing the ability to commit things to memory as well as we could when younger.

[Up2U]

These guys are probably rich kids.
They have eyes only for their peers as you would expect.
I see them travelling 1st class on Thai Airways.
Pretty obnoxious bunch.
Give me a Thai from the 90% income cohort any time before these brats.
Sh-t I think I've just derailed my own thread.
You are wrong.... AUA students are not from the upper class of Thai society but just the opposite and not spoiled brats.

[FarangRuMak]

I stand corrected but I did qualify my statement a little with "probably".
I'm glad to hear that these are ordinary Thais trying to get on in the world.

[gerefan2]

I had an interesting conversation with a fluent English speaking Thai boy.
He wouldn’t teach me any Thai in public.
His view was that Thais didn’t want any Farangs learning for speaking Thai.
I can imagine their reasons...money and scams.

[FarangRuMak]

I had an interesting conversation with a fluent English speaking Thai boy.
He wouldn’t teach me any Thai in public.
His view was that Thais didn’t want any Farangs learning for speaking Thai.
I can imagine their reasons...money and scams.

Interesting.
Unlike the Cambodians they don't like to learn from foreigners either. I think they see it as a loss of face to ask for help with English or whatever.
I couldn't count the number of times that Cambodian bar staff asked me to help with their English homework or asked to confirm a meaning or a point of grammar. It has Never happened here.

[cdnmatt]

My Thai isn't great, but I know more than enough to get around and take care of life. For example, you could drop me in some village in Nakhom Nowhere, and I'd be find, and able to get around without problem. By no means am I fluent though, and I do regret not pushing myself harder.

I just taught myself, learned from the Benjamin Poosam Becker (sp) series of books, plus Ki'ms help, and just living here for so long. Unfortunately, once I learned enough Thai to have total freedom in life again, and be able to get around without problem, then I stopped learning.

I can get around, and do anything and everything I want. However, I can't just sit there and have a beer and casual bullshit with other guys over a beer or 5, type of thing. I unfortunately don't know Thai that well, and do regret not continuing teaching myself.

[gerefan2]

For example, you could drop me in some village in Nakhom Nowhere, and I'd be find, and able to get around without problem.

I can get around, and do anything and everything I want..

I’m sure I am speaking for the rest of the membership when I say I am pleased to hear that you are seeing better than ever ....

[latintopxxx]

gerefan...stop it..thats mean...LOL

[sglad]

My 'thai' is mostly Lao/issan and have to adjust words to suit where I am. Pattaya is fine for Lao/issan, Bkk I have to adjust to be polite. Asking for the bill Issan/Pattaya 'Gep Tang' is fine but bkk it's best with simply 'check bin.


Yes, you're right in pitching your Thai according to where you are and to whom you're speaking. But kep tang and chek bin are not so much regional variations as they are to do with the kind of establishment that you're patronising. Kep tang krap or even thao rai krap is perfectly fine at a street stall or mom-and-pop restaurant. Chek bin is actually a more recent linguistic development and is more suited for requesting the bill at cafes, mid and upscale restaurants, air-conditioned places and the like.

There's also another way of requesting for the bill: kit ngern na or kit ngern krap and once I heard kit ngern thaorai. This is somewhat formal and old-fashioned and I was taught that it was said in the old days by someone who is a social superior as it's very subtlely authoritative ("count the money" or "count the money please" or "count the money - how much?"). I've only heard it being used a couple of times and on both occasions it was by those Chinese-Thai ladies with big hair. It would most certainly sound pretentious if said by a farang. Kep tang krap is also telling the server to "count/keep the money" but it is casual and colloquial.

Note that kit ngern thaorai can be used in other contexts but I'm talking about requesting for the bill at a restaurant.

[sglad]

Interesting.
Unlike the Cambodians they don't like to learn from foreigners either. I think they see it as a loss of face to ask for help with English or whatever.
I couldn't count the number of times that Cambodian bar staff asked me to help with their English homework or asked to confirm a meaning or a point of grammar. It has Never happened here.

Perhaps Cambodians, having more recently "opened themselves up" to the outside world, are just less selective about who they learn English from.

[sglad]

I excell in certain small areas; in the beer bars and ggbars I have a full vocabulary for some reason but when I'm in the real world I keep asking the laundry lady how much it is to wash a bag of 'Tigers' instead of 'Shirts' etc.

Why would you even have to ask how much? Prices are clearly displayed at mainstream laundries frequented by farang. And the way you asked it - leading to the tiger/shirt mispronunciation/confusion - suggests to me you were translating from and thinking in English. A Thai would never ask "how much is it to get this bag of shirts washed?"

I think the reason why you find it easier to be understood in beer and go go bars is because everyone is chilled and relaxed. They have time to listen to you - it's their job. The cute guy or bartender in front of you is pretending that you're the only guy in the whole world he wants to listen to, something you don't get outside the bars. Alcohol also helps to loosen up the mind and the tongue. The environment makes it conducive for words and juices to flow, so to speak.

[sglad]

I blame MYSELF mainly but I also blame the SCHOOLS.
I've tried 2 schools (40 hrs each) and I've had a preliminary session with a third.
In each case it was all about the money and very little about facilitating learning the language.
We have a few accomplished Thai Language speakers here.
I would be grateful if they could share an account of their learning journey.

Did you study one-on-one or did you join group classes? Never join group classes if you're a beginner because there will be others in the class who are false beginners, meaning people who've lived in Thailand a while and speak a bit of the language, people who are repeating the course and are already familiar with the material, people who are faster learners, etc. It can be very de-moralising if you're truly an absolute beginner or someone who learns more slowly to be in a class like that. Like it or not, the teacher will be drawn to the faster learners because they will ask the more interesting questions and this can be very distracting to the others. So my suggestion is to start off by taking private lessons before you join a group. It feels better to be ahead than behind, trust me. And do the same before jumping to the next level - get the materials and some private coaching first. It's only money and time to you, right?

I was 18 when I first started learning Thai. I had been assigned to a unit that allowed me to have weekends off and I saw an ad for Thai classes at the local community centre where I gymmed and played basketball. $300 for 30 hours, small group, once a week. I signed up. There were six of us, all men. I was the youngest, by far. The others were in their 30s and 40s and were seasoned Thailand travellers. I had never been to Thailand other than on a short family trip years before. My knowledge of Thai was zilch. This was supposed to be a beginners class but it soon became apparent that I was the only real beginner. The others had a lot of vocab and could banter with the male teacher about their exploits. I didn't get the inside jokes. Having been a keen and A-student all my life, I felt really discouraged and wanted to drop out as I was really falling behind. But I decided to stick it out for the whole 30 hours if only because I had spent $300 of my hard-earned NS allowance on it! The following year, I retook the class having studied my ass off from the Internet and whatever books I could find. I had also made some Thai friends online. This time around I was the top student, as I was accustomed, and the new confidence that I had meant I was able to get so much more out of the course. But I was sympathetic towards the new and slower learners and took a back seat for much of the class to give them time to catch up.

That was six years ago, and I've become quite fluent since then.

[FarangRuMak]

A lot to chew on in the last replies thanks.
1) I see on utube a big noise channel has reported a discovery that alcohol losens your tongue when speaking a foreign language. You have already discovered it and so have I. Academia has caught up with real life.
2) Don’t get me going on the Siam Paragon Pasty Faced Chinese Thai Bitch Hags.
3) If I were in Bkk I would attend the AUA. Their system involves small class groups but deals with listening skills for a long period before production is expected.

[Brad the Impala]

Yes, you're right in pitching your Thai according to where you are and to whom you're speaking. But kep tang and chek bin are not so much regional variations as they are to do with the kind of establishment that you're patronising.


I only learned thai phonetically, and by copying what I heard others saying. I have always always said "kep stang", after the satang denomination of the baht. Perhaps that's old fashioned nowadays?

[MiniMee]

Yes Brad. That is what I thought too. Gep tang refers to satang and dates back to the time when you could buy a meal for a few pennies or cents. You can still buy a plate of khao man gai for 40 baht, even on Soi Convent, but no longer for a few satang. Check-bin khrap is a more modern way of asking to pay and used in places where you will actually receive a check or bill rather than being just told the total price verbally.

[sglad]

I only learned thai phonetically, and by copying what I heard others saying. I have always always said "kep stang", after the satang denomination of the baht. Perhaps that's old fashioned nowadays?

Sadtaang or simply dtang also means money in a general/figurative sense. It's not uncommon to hear younger Thai people say Phom mai mee dtang (I don't have money).

So kep sadtaang is certainly correct grammar. It could be old-fashioned or simply proper, you know how we should say krab but we say kap most of the time. So kep dtang is prolly a native speaker contraction. Oops, I meant probably.:) You say kep dtang kap at places where you don't usually receive a paper bill or receipt.

Also pronunciation of certain words change with time or depending on who's at the helm of the Royal Thai Language Institute. For eg, the word for wife is now pronounced as phanrayaa even though it's spelled and traditionally pronounced as phanyaa. Why it's spelled that way has got to do with it being a Pali-Sankrit word and we won't get into that right now. It's become fashionable to vocalise the 'unseen vowels' for some words.

Go with the flow. If you're close Thai friends haven't corrected you, then it should be fine.

[sglad]

Yes Brad. That is what I thought too. Gep tang refers to satang and dates back to the time when you could buy a meal for a few pennies or cents. You can still buy a plate of khao man gai for 40 baht, even on Soi Convent, but no longer for a few satang. Check-bin khrap is a more modern way of asking to pay and used in places where you will actually receive a check or bill rather than being just told the total price verbally.

This is a good explanation. Thanks.

[sglad]

A lot to chew on in the last replies thanks.
3) If I were in Bkk I would attend the AUA. Their system involves small class groups but deals with listening skills for a long period before production is expected.

I attended a trial class last year while I was on my five-week homestay and intensive Thai program at Chula last year. It's as close as authentic speech as you're going to get in a classroom. The set up is like watching a live sitcom and you can tell who's following and who's not in the audience from their laughter (or not). It was really funny and I enjoyed it. But you would need to have some Thai before you can understand or appreciate anything. Many of the people in the audience seemed lost which was a pity because I found it a lot of fun and wished it wouldn't end. I would recommend it as a supplement to regular Thai classes perhaps after you've reached a lower intermediate level. They were a bit too sticky about their 'listen-only' method though; one of the actors (teachers) refused to answer me when I asked something that wasn't clear to me after the 'performance'.

[sglad]

I blame MYSELF mainly but I also blame the SCHOOLS.
I've tried 2 schools (40 hrs each) and I've had a preliminary session with a third.
In each case it was all about the money and very little about facilitating learning the language.


My biggest complaint with learning Thai be it at a language school or at uni, is placement. They don't place you with students who are approximately at the same level as you. Abilities can vary widely and teachers either pitch the class either at the brightest, the slowest or the cutest student (I'm not kidding). Perhaps it's logistically very difficult to do so, because as you say, they need to make money which means opening classes as soon as they have enough numbers. But these people don't even try. My second biggest complaint is that it's very hard to find a private teacher who would actually tailor lessons according to your objectives and needs - they will say yes to everything you say in the first class and will then revert back to whatever set syllabus they've been using for the past 100 years. That said, my intensive group class at Chula last year was excellent as the class was specifically designed for us and meant as a reinforcement/continuation to what we had already learnt at our home uni. Three or four hours of class time plus another 4-5 hours of homework and self-study every week day for five weeks. The first hour of every class was a test of the previous day's lessons. It was very intense and plus all the authentic language I was being exposed to at home, made it the best Thai language learning experience I've had. I learned more in those five weeks than the last 10 months in Chiang Mai.

[cdnmatt]

Not to bud in, but quick note here. We're now at the point in human civilization where you're no longer allowed to complain that your teacher or school sucks, and that's why you don't know whatever it is you want to learn.

There's basically an infinite amount of knowledge and information available at our fingertips these days, and free of charge. If you want to learn something, then go learn it. If you want to learn Thai, then go learn Thai. All the information you need is readily available for you on the internet. By no means am I fluent because I got lazy, but I can speak (and before, read and write) Thai more than enough to get around, and I taught myself. I taught myself everything I know about the software and online security world.

I can go on the internet right now, and take classes from places like MIT, Stanford, and Duke free of charge. Actually, I have done so in the past, in machine learning and linear algebra.

Anyway, sorry, but the argument that the teacher is no good doesn't cut it with me anymore, considering the amount of information available at our fingertips these days. If you want to learn, you'll learn.

[FarangRuMak]

Not to bud in, but quick note here. We're now at the point in human civilization where you're no longer allowed to complain that your teacher or school sucks, and that's why you don't know whatever it is you want to learn.

There's basically an infinite amount of knowledge and information available at our fingertips these days, and free of charge. If you want to learn something, then go learn it. If you want to learn Thai, then go learn Thai. All the information you need is readily available for you on the internet. By no means am I fluent because I got lazy, but I can speak (and before, read and write) Thai more than enough to get around, and I taught myself. I taught myself everything I know about the software and online security world.

I can go on the internet right now, and take classes from places like MIT, Stanford, and Duke free of charge. Actually, I have done so in the past, in machine learning and linear algebra.

Anyway, sorry, but the argument that the teacher is no good doesn't cut it with me anymore, considering the amount of information available at our fingertips these days. If you want to learn, you'll learn.
Yes there are multiple options now but I’m talking about the ubiquitous Thai Language Schools you see all over the place.
As I said I have had 40 hours in 2 locations and I’ ve observed one more plus my friends have attenended many and my conclusion is that’s about fees first, second and third with facilitating learning a bad fourth.
The pretty girls outside and in reception are all beans but the classroom is dull and textbook bound.
That’s MY experience.