"The most unkindest cut of all"

[FarangRuMak]

Pretty often lately I'm finding homophobia raising it's ugly head and this is not a head I like to see raised.
"I've no problem with gays themselves but I don't like what they do" is heard often; even in polite company.
Yeats' line "how do you tell the dancer from the dance?" come to mind.
But for some reason, that borders on the visceral, what gets to me most is the simple remark "what they do is unhygienic"

[frequent]

Pretty often lately I'm finding homophobia raising it's ugly head and this is not head I like to see raised.
"I've no problem with gays themselves but I don't like what they do" is heard often; even in polite company.
Yeats' line "how do you tell the dancer from the dance?" come to mind.
But for some reason that borders on the visceral what gets to me most is the simple remark "what the do is unhygienic"I've spent my entire life not worrying what other people think of me or/and what I do. It's so frightfully middle class

[FarangRuMak]

But I am middle class.

[scottish-guy]

What Frequent said.

It's not your SEXUALITY that you need to change - it's the polite COMPANY you're keeping.

[frequent]

But I am middle class.To be gay is to be classless. It frees you of society's norms

[scottish-guy]

But I am middle class.

Only Middle class?

Here in the UK homosexuality is mostly an Upper Class pastime - hence myself and (to a lesser extent), Frequent.

Head Judge Len however is an interloper.

I'd describe him (in my best Terry-Thomas accent) as...barrow boy...new money...that type of thing...bit of a bad egg really.

[frequent]

Head Judge Len however is an interloper.

I'd describe him (in my best Terry-Thomas accent) as...barrow boy...new money...that type of thing...bit of a bad egg really.And forever sucking up

[latintopxxx]

I much rather prefer working class trailer trash guys....thank you very much....

[scottish-guy]

But so do we Rabbi - fucking the servants is one of the perks!

[frequent]

I much rather prefer working class trailer trash guys....thank you very much....We're not discussing straight money boys, we're discussing us

[latintopxxx]

oh....how do i class myself??? I live in the new world free from class distinctions...

[cdnmatt]

Not sure where you're seeing it, but if you are, I really don't mind. Turn it into a positive.

As an example, just look at what happened in Charlottesville (s) a while back. Neo Nazis decided it was a good idea to show up, and got absolutely slammed and condem\nmed by the vast majority of people.

I think the same holds true here. I like to believe we're well past the age of gay acceptance now, so when some group kicks up a fuss, the majority will shut them up almost instantly, and it will help verify what the majority already know -- being gay is just fine.

[bobsaigon2]

“To be gay is to be classless. It frees you of society's norms” frequent

"new world free from class distinctions"......Latin

Looks like there are two interesting interpretations of “class” at play here.

Neither seems to fit any form of reality as we now know it.

And in Matt's world, "being gay is just fine", which no doubt comes as a surprise to the gay inhabitants of the US hinterlands.

Anyway, calm discussions are always a pleasure to read.

[joe552]

Sadly bob, I fear it won't last. I was born into a working class Dublin family. I was the first of my siblings to go to college - apart from my tradesmen brothers who went to a technical school as apprentices. However, a goodly number of my nieces and nephews have attended university. In fact, one has just started studying for her Ph.D. So we (the greater family) are becoming more middle class. I guess that's progress!

[frequent]

Neither seems to fit any form of reality as we now know it.The writings of the French novelist Camus do not resonate with you, Bob? Possibly francois can enlighten you about the central theme of L'Etranger

[scottish-guy]

...I was born into a working class Dublin family. I was the first of my siblings to go to college... However, a goodly number of my nieces and nephews have attended university... I guess that's progress!

Is it though? University entrance qualifications and degrees have been so dumbed down over the decades that nowadays you can almost get an A Level for writing your name, a degree for spelling it right, and a PhD for getting it in the correct order.

[bobsaigon2]

frequent: Camus was a favorite of mine as a university student but as time passed I became less and less impressed by French intellectuals and writers.

[scottish-guy]

Oh for fuck sake....

[bobsaigon2]

Oh for fuck sake.... Directed at.....?

[joe552]

I think that's a bit harsh, SG. I didn't study for a degree, it was a Certificate in Community & Youth Work (the recognised qualification in that field). My nephew was the last to graduate, 2 years ago, and now works for Intel. Progress, I think.

[scottish-guy]

The study level of an ordinary degree in the UK these days is probably less than your Certificate from (I'm guessing) the 70s.

Surely you know that it's all "modules" now and if they fail a module they are allowed to just keep doing it again and again till they pass.

My profession is a degree entry one and let me tell you that there are graduates being churned out now (in 2 years instead of 3 indidentally) who are barely literate, e.g. they frequently write "loose when they mean "lose" - amongst other basic primary school level errors.

[joe552]

Just a slight correction, SG. I was at Sunderland Polytechnic (now Sunderland University) from 1989 to 1991. Yes, I went in as a mature student.

[bobsaigon2]

Yes, one is certainly correct in decrying the deteriorating educational standards of today when making a comparison to those of a generation ago. It is happening in many countries. However,

It is what it is. We can’t do anything about it. We can only hope that the first rate universities and colleges will continue to demand the same academic standards that we saw in our day.

Many people claiming degrees, diplomas and certificates today may in fact be less well educated than we would have hoped, but it’s better than nothing, and it is, unfortunately, all we can expect now.

[scottish-guy]

I wish to draw attention (before someone else does) to the fact that in my rant about illiteracy I spelt "incidentally" wrong!!

:D

[arsenal]

Please don't apologise. Ranting illiterately is really your forte. Indyref 2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 etc.

[FarangRuMak]

There was a time when being a Professor stood for something.
But the title is now demeaned with 'Professors' of Gender Studies, Women's Studies, Ethnic Studies, Dance, Spoon Whittling etc working alongside Professors of hard core Science, Mathematics, Classical Greek etc and probably getting the same pay but a lot more 'Celebrity Status'.

[a447]

Yes, one is certainly correct in decrying the deteriorating educational standards of today when making a comparison to those of a generation ago. It is happening in many countries.

That is certainly true of Australia.

[newalaan2]

Pretty often lately I'm finding homophobia raising it's ugly head and this is not a head I like to see raised.
"I've no problem with gays themselves but I don't like what they do" is heard often; even in polite company.
Yeats' line "how do you tell the dancer from the dance?" come to mind.
But for some reason, that borders on the visceral, what gets to me most is the simple remark "what they do is unhygienic"

In Thailand, bf and I rarely come across any obvious homophobia, never in Issan, but there were a few more double takes from straight couples when in restaurants, bars which were mixed in Patong, Phuket than I normally notice. At the hotel we stayed in Phuket, C&N there were straight western couple guests. The younger couples never gave us a second glance, but at reception we did get a 'disapproving' look from a middle-aged white couple, however I gave back my usual 'what the fuck are you staring at' 20 second look as I normally do in these situations, and they seemed most 'put out' when the reception staff and bellboys started chatting to us about where we went last night, where going today? you want car taken round now? while the couple were all but ignored until we were seen to. I think they expected the staff to also be disapproving, but got a shock when it was they who were ignored. I even managed a smirk.

Regarding how far things have come in acceptance terms, the only 'thing' I can offer up is a recent visit to a North East Scotland town with a female friend. It is a medium size town in the Presbyterian heartland, lots of strict churchie folks, but it's a lovely little place and my friend was looking for a birthday card in the greeting card section of a local shop which also already had christmas cards. She said 'this is a nice one'...It said "Happy Christmas to my Son and Son-In-Law". First time I had come across that.

[FarangRuMak]

Not bad for Kirkland.

[FarangRuMak]

Very often I take the Baht Bus from Jomtien to Boyz Town with my frequent friend and part-time lover (he was full-time until he married) and during the Russian occupation I witnessed a few altercations between couples like my friend and I and Russian men.
I got a few nasty glances myself also.
Then I started to get on the bus further along the line than my friend. This might sound like cowardice but I did it because my friend is very hot tempered and pretty well built.
In a fight he would not pull back.
So I decided that discretion was the better part of Valor.

[newalaan2]

Very often I take the Baht Bus from Jomtien to Boyz Town with my frequent friend and part-time lover (he was full-time until he married) and during the Russian occupation I witnessed a few altercations between couples like my friend and I and Russian men.
I got a few nasty glances myself also.
Then I started to get on the bus further along the line than my friend. This might sound like cowardice but I did it because my friend is very hot tempered and pretty well built.
In a fight he would not pull back.
So I decided that discretion was the better part of Valor.

No, not cowardice, I think your action is the best way to deal with that particular situation, much better than the way I often address it. It's actually more the 'Thai way' of avoiding confrontation which you use and is a good aspect of their culture. But I am simply not Thai-enough. I am my own worst enemy when it comes to other westerners, instead of backing down when adrenaline kicks-in if I or bf/friends feel threatened I tend to face it up, bf doesn't care much for it but I have little tolerance myself for ignorant oafs European/American/Russian....all the same to me, and will respond to comments and looks, fortunately I don't have a hot temper and so normally can assess the situation fairly calmly. Worst is when 3-4 of us are already on a bahtbus and handsome/cute Russian(s)get on, the Thai lads have no concept of what is acceptable to these ignorant morons and would try to joke/flirt as they would do with Thais. When in that situation I only hope none of the Russian guys who do get on understand Thai as i'm sure they would be most 'uncomfortable' with what was being said about them. Thankfully most of them stand at the rear of bahtbuses.

Also thankfully after many years and many visits I have yet to get into a physical altercation. And while a 'fuck you' to me would get a 'fuck you too' back I would never use the middle finger salute as that would probably be over the red line for most when they have had a drink or two. I played outdoor football to my late 40's and indoor into early 50's so a well placed left foot strike would probably still do enough damage to allow time to leave the scene if the situation got out of hand. But that really would be a last resort.

That is only when westerners are involved, when Thais are involved I go the complete opposite way, and try to talk calmly and do anything to play down the situation as they are capable of serious kick-back when face lost etc.. and don't have and compunction about laying 4-5 in to one, as well as using concealed weapons.

[gumblebee]

'fuck you'

Your place or mine?

[frequent]

There was a time when being a Professor stood for something.
But the title is now demeaned with 'Professors' of Gender Studies, Women's Studies, Ethnic Studies, Dance, Spoon Whittling etc working alongside Professors of hard core Science, Mathematics, Classical Greek etc and probably getting the same pay but a lot more 'Celebrity Status'.What do you expect with the Americanisation that's going on?

[frequent]

frequent: Camus was a favorite of mine as a university student but as time passed I became less and less impressed by French intellectuals and writers.And clearly remember nothing of their perspectives if you can't join the dots between

[FarangRuMak]

What do you expect with the Americanisation that's going on?

I think it's a wider issue than simply 'Americanisation'
It's a global issue.
No country can take uncontrolled inward migration.
Quite simply the native infrastructure will collapse; leaving everyone homeless.

[frequent]

I think it's a wider issue than simply 'Americanisation'
It's a global issue.
No country can take uncontrolled inward migration.
Quite simply the native infrastructure will collapse; leaving everyone homeless.Inapposite or, more bluntly, missing the point completely

[FarangRuMak]

Inapposite or, more bluntly, missing the point completely
I don't have a clue what your response means.
Can you please clarify?

[frequent]

I don't have a clue what your response means.
Can you please clarify?If you don't know the difference between America exporting its vulgar CocaCola "culture" where everyone deserves a wholly meaningless title, and immigration/open borders then there's clearly no hope for you

[latintopxxx]

love the way some people knock america...yet there are q's of gaxzilions trying to hop over the fence just to get in

[frequent]

love the way some people knock america...yet there are q's of gaxzilions trying to hop over the fence just to get inSomething along the lines of HL Mencken's famous quote springs to mind (although you can leave out the word "American" from it): No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public

[bobsaigon2]

And clearly remember nothing of their perspectives if you can't join the dots between

The dots between what? Fortunately, I can still remember to complete my sentences.

[frequent]

The dots between what? Fortunately, I can still remember to complete my sentences.Unfortunately the phantom thread editor didn't like one or more characters in my response. The dots between my original comment about the class-free nature of being gay and the French (gay) novel The Outsider

[bobsaigon2]

the Americanisation that's going on: Without commenting on the contents of this cultural and economic phenomenon, there would be no export of things American if there were no one to import them. No one forces people to drink Coca Cola or watch execrable American TV shows. They do so of their own choosing.

[FarangRuMak]

"Sinoization" will be the new trend in Asia.
China is becoming more and more bullying in the region.
They don't have many Aircraft Carriers but they're arming the small Atolls and Islands.
The day will come when Japan will be begging the USA NOT to leave.

[arsenal]

It's just my opinion but I believe China is now the dominant power in the world. Even before Trump anyone with half a brain could see that America was in decline as a superpower and that China would replace them. The speed has taken the west by surprise I think.

[francois]

And I thought this thread was about circumcision!

[sglad]

There was a time when being a Professor stood for something.

Yesss, it stood for knowing the difference between common and proper nouns and not using ungrammatical constructions like "most unkindest".

[sglad]

"Sinoization" will be the new trend in Asia.


Sinicization, surely.

And it won't be a "new trend". Chinese influence has always been pervasive throughout East and Southeast Asia, with diasporas having significant, if not majority control of the economies within it. You might want to check out this little known country called Thailand.

[sglad]

the Americanisation that's going on: Without commenting on the contents of this cultural and economic phenomenon, there would be no export of things American if there were no one to import them. No one forces people to drink Coca Cola or watch execrable American TV shows. They do so of their own choosing.

Not true. Perhaps you've not heard of colonisation or globalisation. Smaller and weaker countries often have to open up their economies (and, thus, societies) as a consequence of trade agreements, political alliances or military domination by bigger powers. Cultural diffusion, either by force or osmosis, is bound to take place between the countries (for eg the use of English in Singapore and Malaysia or English people drinking tea). "Fine, I'll share with you my technology but you must buy my products..."

The great Emperor Meiji, who was greatly admired and emulated by Rama V, adopted western dress and customs partly to stave off Western colonisation. It's highly debatable whether he had any choice.

Of course countries can remain in isolation (almost always as a result of embargoes) and resist western influences but do so at a cost to themselves for eg Burma, Cuba and Iran.

[arsenal]

Sglad.
Americanisation is voluntary.
Colonisation is not.
Globalisation is somewhere inbetween.