More European parochialism.

[arsenal]

Another bunch just like the Scottish Nationalists and The Brexiteers

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41493014

[joe552]

Don't forget Sinn Fein!

[arsenal]

They're heading towards civil war if they don't pull back.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41498685

[Khor tose]

Another bunch just like the Scottish Nationalists and The Brexiteers

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41493014

Not in this case. Catalan has it own language, fought against Franco, has had a long time drive for independence, and the vote was not even close.
I am sure most member on SGT have been in both Barcelona and Madrid. Going from Madrid to Barcelona felt like leaving Spain and entering the rest of Europe.
At least that is the way I felt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia

[Moses]

Another bunch just like the Scottish Nationalists and The Brexiteers

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41493014

No. Here is different story, what just is shown by BBC like "an another story".

There are only about 1/3 of Catalans in the population of Catalonia.

Reason is economical: Catalonia produces around 25% of Spanish GDP while is only 6% of territory and about 15% of population.

[Khor tose]

No. Here is different story, what just is shown by BBC like "an another story".

There are only about 1/3 of Catalans in the population of Catalonia.

Reason is economical: Catalonia produces around 25% of Spanish GDP while is only 6% of territory and about 15% of population.

Actually, I think Catalan does even better then that. You source? In your country everything has an economic reason. Go to Barcelona and talk to the Catalan people and try to tell them its economic. Please call me first, I would love to hear that conversation.

[scottish-guy]

Another thread which proves the usual SGT "experts" actually know fuck all about anything

[arsenal]

I am sure that Scottish agrees with me in comparing the way the National governments (UK and Spain) behaved. That the UK government has shown itself to be extremely fair minded in allowing a free vote whilst the Spanish organised a right wing style police crackdown.

[scottish-guy]

"Allowing"?

Provided the "people" demonstrate a desire via the ballot box, a referendum on Independence is not the UK Government's to deny - in 2014 or now.

Scots entered this Union voluntarily and we shall leave if and whenever it suits us.

For the avoidance of doubt - the same goes for the English.

The situation in our 2014 Referendum is not comparable with the Spanish situation at all. "Our" Referendum was agreed whereas the whole problem in Spain is that the Spantish Govt would not agree.

However, now in 2017 the UK Government is currently seeking to block any future Referendum on Independence - despite the fact there is a double-mandate - thus foolishly putting themselves in a worse position than the Spanish Govt.

It therefore remains to be seen how the UK Govt behaves if the Scottish Govt decides to call Indyref2 in defiance of them - and I would not put it past them to behave in exactly the same fashion.

[arsenal]

Disingenuous Scottish. But then you know that already.

There is no proviso in the Act of Union that allows Scotland to just up sticks and leave if they think the going gets a bit hard. Exactly what I said, your referendum was agreed by the UK government. The Scottish government does not have the legal right to call a referendum, sovereignty remains with Westminster. And are you expecting a referendum every three years, why not every year or perhaps you should have one monthly until you get the result you want. What about two a day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon just in case people change their minds after an excellent smoked salmon lunch.

[scottish-guy]

You are (as usual) factually wrong - under Scots law sovereignty lies with the people. This was established in the Claim of Right Act of 1689 and reaffirmed in 1998 by the leaders of every political party in Scotland.

We are in a voluntary Union and either party can leave at any time.

Nobody is proposing or has proposed a second referendum in 2017 - so your crap about "every three years" is precisely that and you're making it up as you go along.

Moderators and Head Judges should be seen and not heard

[latintopxxx]

why dont u just leave then...for goodness sake...nobody care about the damp northern half of England ..ooops scotland...anyway...its a economically depressed crime/drug ridden wasteland where the best and brightest have decamped south.

[arsenal]

The Act of Union supersedes anything from 1689 and "reafirmation" by anyone does not change that. It's called rule of law, have you heard of it?

[latintopxxx]

ofcourse not...he's too bust gorging himself on the subsidies that the muppets (sorry english) throw across the border

[arsenal]

It can be very difficult to translate films but this one seems to have captured the very essence of the intended audience.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=scottish%20star%20wars&pbjreload=10

[scottish-guy]

Good to see you both teaming up to attack me.

Birds of a feather .........

[joe552]

I ain't no expert, but have a personal view, which leans toward the right of self-determination for people who want to "opt out" out the State in which they live. From what I read, the majority of those who voted, want to secede from Spain and become a Republic. But that's the majority of those who voted - I've read only 47% of the population actually voted. I'm open to correction on any of this - these are just my impressions.

So, while the majority of those who actually voted want to leave, the fact that the majority of the electorate DID NOT vote. Which for me, asks the question, do we actually know what the people of Catalunya actually think? I'm not sure I do.

I'm totally open to learning on this one.

[scottish-guy]

A 47% turnout while rubber bullets are being fired at voters, while Police in riot gear bludgeon old women, while voters are dragged along the ground by the hair, while polling stations are forcibly closed and ballot boxes seized is, I'd suggest pretty good in the circumstances.

Nobody forced the Unionists to stay at home (if indeed they did) - equally there's no proof that the result would have been NO had they participated.

You say the majority did not vote and of course you're right - but there was never going to be a 100% turnout even if the Spanish Govt had approved the vote (which they were never going to) so the real question is what turnout would have to have been achieved to overturn what has been widely reported at a 90% YES vote if every one of those extra votes had been NO?

I'm far from a mathematician - but I read somewhere that around another 40% of the electorate would have to have turned out (possible) and every one of them to have voted NO (impossible) in order to change the result. I'm sure someone on this forum can work it out.

But the real issue here is not about YES or NO - it's about people having the right to vote, it's about self-determination which has supposedly been a bedrock principle of democracy since US President Woodrow Wilson championed it at Versailles in 1919.

Shamefully, the EU and her members have chosen to look the other way - as has the UN.

Today, we know Unionists have been bussed into Barcelona from Madrid to fake a rally in support of unity - so who knows how this will end

[joe552]

I totally take your point, SG. The fact remains, as I see it (and this might seem to contradict what I said earlier, but SG's post swayed me) the people of Catalunya have expressed their wishes, and the government of Spain appears to be ignoring that democratic process. That surely can't be right. And for the PM to simply say "we'll ignore this" is hardly democracy?

Did I read somewhere that the majority of people who live in Catalunya are not actually Catalan?

[arsenal]

I hear that Cornwall, a place that has it's own language wants to leave The UK and under Scottishs' ideas they should certainly be allowed to do so any time they choose. Referendum on Monday and independent country by Wednesday. Simple? Yes! Cue Scottish hurling insults because that's easier than defending his position.

[latintopxxx]

I loved watching those arrogant catalans getting smacked around by the castilians.....they need to be reminded who the master is...

[arsenal]

It also seems that years of poor diet and too much alcohol has taken it's toll on the Scots.

http://m.bbc.com/sport/football/41546717

[scottish-guy]

Better to be genetically small of stature Len, than to be (like yourself) permanently small minded.

[arsenal]

I wrote.
" Cue Scottish hurling insults because that's easier than defending his position."
Scottish wrote.
" Better to be genetically small of stature Len, than to be (like yourself) permanently small minded."

Told you. As predictable as a Glaswegian drunk.

[scottish-guy]

If you think that was an insult you dont know me at all Len

:D

[Khor tose]

I wrote.

Told you. As predictable as a Glaswegian drunk.
Right, make this American spend time figuring out WTF a Glaswegian drunk is predicted to do.:mad:

Sounds like you are both name calling, but back to the subject. If states could vote to succeed from the Union, in America you would be seeing a mass exodus of the progressive American States leaving. Progressives would not be leaving because their anti-Trump feelings per se, but because the progressives I know hate policies that promote racism, lower education standards, poorly distribute the wealth, fail to provide health care to sick people, divide us internally and isolate us internationally. Now, we sort of went out of our way in 1860 to establish that if you do not like something the Nation is doing you, as a state, still do not have the right to break the Union. No, the progressives in America are going to stick it out and hope this nation survives, but I envy Scotland, because they can avoid having to be part of what I see is nothing but an attempt by British racist to keep their little white nation the same old imperialistic crap pot that is used to be. IMHO
Catalan is nothing like Scotland.
PS
Scotty, I knew before I came on the board.

[arsenal]

Britain!, an "imperialistic crap pot" Let me tell you that Britain built the greatest ever empire by acting like gentlemen.

[arsenal]

And here is yet more proof that those Pictish pixies cannot be allowed out unsupervised by the English.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeI154gaWL4

[FarangRuMak]

why dont u just leave then...for goodness sake...nobody care about the damp northern half of England ..ooops scotland...anyway...its a economically depressed crime/drug ridden wasteland where the best and brightest have decamped south.
I have read somewhere that there are 300,000 English people living in rain sodden Scotland.
In the referendum was the vote to leave the union lost by 300,000 votes?
Spain has made it clear that they would veto Scotland's entry to the EU if ever an application arrived from Dun Eadain.
Re. the Catalan Referendum; it was basically a bunch of leavers running around putting plastic boxes into schools with no independent monitoring and no agreement with Madrid.
It was not legitimate in the way that the Scottish Referendum was in my humble opinion.

[arsenal]

The Scottish referendum was legitimate while the Catalan one was not. That is correct. Therefore the result of the Scottish one must be honoured by all parties while the Catalan one can be ignored.

[latintopxxx]

but the scot looney independants will keep holding referendums until they get the result they want. Idiots.

[scottish-guy]

I have read somewhere that there are 300,000 English people living in rain sodden Scotland.
In the referendum was the vote to leave the union lost by 300,000 votes?
Spain has made it clear that they would veto Scotland's entry to the EU if ever an application arrived from Dun Eadain.
Re. the Catalan Referendum; it was basically a bunch of leavers running around putting plastic boxes into schools with no independent monitoring and no agreement with Madrid.
It was not legitimate in the way that the Scottish Referendum was in my humble opinion.

I guess the fact that you are humble about this series of ill-informed opinions mitigates your lack of accuracy - but at least you're closer to the facts than Head Judge Len is most of the time, so I give you credit for that!


#Indyref1 was lost by just under 400,000 votes (not 300,000 as you state)
9% of the population identify as English only - which means approx 500,000 in 2014 not 300,000 as you state.
I don't know if it was your intention to imply that English settlers lost #Indyref1 for Scotland, but I would reject that. There are more than sufficient cringing Scots willing to betray their Country, plus many English settlers are very active in the Independence movement. I'd say they made a significant but not decisive contribution to the result
The "Spanish veto" is a direct lie peddled by Unionists. Spain's official position (which has been subsequently borne out) was that provided #Indyref1 was legal Spain "would have nothing to say" This has been recently repeated by Spain on the subject of #Indyref2. You can see why that position was and still *is* in their interests
The Catalan referendum, far from the way you have characterised it, was efficiently organised by the Catalan Govt and local authorities. It was of course the Spanish authorities who disrupted it
There were international monitors - several UK parliamentarians were involved in that together with experienced monitors from many other countries.
"Legitimacy" is in the eye of the beholder. Over 20 current UN members asserted their Independence without the agreement of their "parent" State. One you may just have heard of - The United States of America

[frequent]

Britain!, an "imperialistic crap pot" Let me tell you that Britain built the greatest ever empire by acting like gentlemen.Quite so, arsenal. Only a true English gentleman could have invented the concentration camp (http://www.sahistory.org.za/topic/women-children-white-concentration-camps-during-anglo-boer-war-1900-1902)

[scottish-guy]

....and being such a colossal old Boer himself you'd have thought Head Judge Len would have known that!

:yahoo_mini:

[arsenal]

I did know it but chose to gloss over it.

Scottish, when you say "the authorities" in Spain I presume you mean the legitimate elected government. Is that who you mean? Cue insults from Scottish because.......

[scottish-guy]

Both "authorities" - Catalan Govt and Spanish National Govt are legitimate and elected - are you losing the plot?

Clearly I meant the Spanish National Govt disrupted the voting - only a cretin would imagine otherwise.

Meanwhile.....

5601

[FarangRuMak]

I was a bit out in my figures but if anything the real figures confirms me in my opinion.
So there are 500,000 English in Scotland and the Referendum was lost by a margin of 400,000.
I don't think that more than 10% of this Sassanach cohort voted against retaining the Union and I think this will remain the position in future Referenda.
The only hope for breaking the Union will be a larger turnout with a majority of Independence voters making up this group.
Re. Catalonia:
The legitimacy of the Referendum must be questioned because it was organised mostly by the Catexiteers.
They don't deny this-in fact they're proud to tell the world how they took control of the polling centres, hid the boxes and so on.
This 'ownership' of the polling stations would intimidate the other side and no doubt led to a small turnout of pro-Union Catalans.
I would love to see the Catalans get what they want PROVIDED that the true Majority want what they get.
To me this Referendum falls far short on that score in my Humble opinion.

[scottish-guy]

FRM, I admire your interest.....

You suggest the "only hope (in a second indyref) is a higher turnout".

Given that 100% turnout was recorded in some areas and overall it was 85%, I'd suggest there is little scope for a higher turnout.

Where some of the "hope" lies is with the demise of the (2014) >70yo cohort who were simultaneously overwhelmingly NO and the group which provided the highest turnout. YES is leading approx 70/30 amongst the under 30s with no drop off as they progress in age (given that it's only been 3 years).

So it seems likely that constitutional change may be effected partially or substantially by demographics - much like another part of the U.K. which I don't want to bring up again.

There is also hope by virtue of possible future events.

No agreement on Brexit might have a significant impact given that the vote to remain was 62% in Scotland.
Prices in the shops are already going up significantly - rising well ahead of wages - and interest rates are likely to be raised soon.
The U.K. Prime Minister is more of a lame duck that a one-legged mallard and the next in line is a fucking mop-headed buffoon that nobody can stand except the London chattering class.

Moving on to Catalonia - your contention that it was the Independence seekers doing the "intimidation" is the best piece of political spin since Hitler blamed the Commies for setting fire to the Reichstag!

Do you not possess a TV?

:D

[scottish-guy]

Talking of TV - one of the biggest barriers to YES is that save for a single semi-newspaper, the entire mainstream media (including the State Broadcaster, the BBC) is controlled by NO.

Alternative media does a very good job of trying to balance the debate but it simply does not reach much of those 70+ voters who against all the evidence still believe that the media tells the truth (and especially the BBC)

[FarangRuMak]

Scotland Independence.
I must take the point made by a Scot here that other circumstances have changed since the 1st referendum so I have to concede that a different result next time is not solely down to an increased turnout.
If the majority of Scots vote for independence they will get it because unlike the Catalan Referendum it will be a transparent affair agreed to by both governing institutions.
Following on from that E U membership should not be blocked by veto by other states.
However whether it can or not remains to be seen.
Re Catalan Referendum.
It's obvious to all fairminded people that the Spanish police behaved brutally.
But that's a different issue.
Even if they had behaved properly the Referendum was not conducted to the standards of the British/Scottish referendum on all types of criteria IMHO.

[scottish-guy]

FRM I agree with everything you have said !

[FarangRuMak]

FRM I agree with everything you have said !

Jeezeus. That's not good.

[joe552]

FRM, I'd be very worried if I got a post like that from SG!

If the Spanish national government refused to allow a referendum, what choice did the people of Catalunya have but to organise it themselves?

[latintopxxx]

I really am at a loss to understand why these little territories wish to break away and declare independance when the whole point of the EU seems to be strength in unity, bit counterintuitive.
Surely the scots or catalans would be in a stronger position bargaining with the EU as part of a larger group with which they have a historical affinity??
Small monded napoleon like politicians trying to create a legacy?? as in ANY legacy??

[scottish-guy]

If you don't understand (as you say you don't) then best to shut the fuck up I would have thought.

[arsenal]

Scottish wrote.
" Both "authorities" - Catalan Govt and Spanish National Govt are legitimate and elected - are you losing the plot?"

No. But you are. The Catalan government gets it's authority and it's legitimacy from the Spanish government which retains 100% sovereignty. The same as in Scotland. Vastly over expensive parliament buildings notwithstanding power can be taken back to Westminster and Madrid at any time. And being a misguided but knowledgeable political beast you know this.

[scottish-guy]

... power can be taken back to Westminster..at any time...

Let's see you try

[latintopxxx]

scotty no need to be rude, was hoping you could enlighten me.
And as for " lets see you try".....its easy...the english could could turn off the subsidy tap.

[scottish-guy]

Bring it on

[arsenal]

Scottish wrote.
"Let's see you try."

Do want some. Do ya? My dad's bigger un your dad. Shove shove. Homework for you laddie. Look up the word sovereignty.

[latintopxxx]

silly scot hoi polloi...their own masters sold them off with the clearances..no need for english motivation...

[arsenal]

The Highland Clearances are an uncomfortable truth for the Scots. Stops them blaming the Auld Enemy for everything crappy there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances

[arsenal]

Scottish is currently sitting in his peaty crofters cottage, sucking on a humbug, swigging from a can of Tennents Extra and plotting how to overthrow the English.

[scottish-guy]

The Rabbi and Head Judge Len.

Hand in hand.

How nauseating.

[latintopxxx]

scots only do well when under the direction of the english...left to their own devices they will make the greeks look good...

[arsenal]

To be fair to the Greeks. In the distant past they were a great civilisation with books, culture, impressive architecture, learning and a basic form of democracy while at the same time the Jocks were still eating tree bark and wearing clothes made out of grass.

[latintopxxx]

...not the lot inhabiting greece...the original lot moved across the ditch and set up camp in rome...explains why rome and that empire took over...bit like france...do u really think the awful lot currently squatting there really created all that beauty???

[FarangRuMak]

silly scot hoi polloi...their own masters sold them off with the clearances..no need for english motivation...

Yes, Clan Chiefs sold out to cheviot sheep farmers but the Highland Clearances were largely due to English influence and military presence in Scotland.
The war between James and William III was a civil war as well as a family dispute which led to the German Hanovarian takeover of the English Crown. This in turn let to the defeat of most of the Clan's and the clan system at Culloden which in turn open up the Highlands for seizure.
Yes it is true that the Campbells fought on both sides at Culloden but that's a Campbell issue not an over-arching issue in the affair.
Without the mega events involving English influence, the catastrophy of the whole-scale clearances would not have occurred.

[latintopxxx]

..oh Lord..another green tree hugging apologist leftie..give me strength...bit like the africans...its always the white mans fault..even though they left 70 years ago...damn Berlin was rebuilt in a lot shorter time.

[FarangRuMak]

..oh Lord..another green tree hugging apologist leftie..give me strength...bit like the africans...its always the white mans fault..even though they left 70 years ago...damn Berlin was rebuilt in a lot shorter time.
What a ridiculous reply.
"White man's burden".
For fuck's sake.
All sides in this affair were White and British.
This catastrophy was clinically and ruthlessly executed by force and by law.
I've checked some of the specific legislation enacted in Westminster, London;
1) The Heritable Juristic Act 1745.
The Scottish that did not accept English Rule forfeited their estates.
2) The Act of Proscription 1747.
This act aimed to wipe out the Culture of the non-lowland Scots. It Outlawed the wearing of the Tartan, the Teaching of Gallic, Highland Clan Gatherings and Bagpipe music.
3)The Estates Act of 1704.
This earlier act was the Daddy of them all.
After the act of Union the right of the English Parliament to seize family lands was extended to include Scotland. No such power had existed in Scotland prior to that.
These carefully crafted laws were backed up by force of arms, execution and deportation to the Caribbean.
For a detached account if the devastation wrought among the crofters check out "Journey to the Western Isles" (1773) by the English Scholar Dr. Samuel Johnson.

[scottish-guy]

Now Now FRM you surely don't expect the likes of The Rabbi and Head Judge Len to have bothered educating themselves do you?

Len gets his political education from the Daily Telegraph, the Daily Mail, and The Sun.

As for The Rabbi, well he's just dancing on Len's coat-tails.

[joe552]

Thanks FRM, an interesting bit of history.

[arsenal]

FRM. Of course while the terrible English were doing all this all the other nations of Europe and the world were behaving like fucking boy scouts, right?

[FarangRuMak]

Relativism is an open ended entity.
I didn't think it was required to address what was going on in greater Europe or further afield for that matter.
My response was specifically about Anglo/Scottish affairs at a particular time in history.

[arsenal]

Relativism may well be an open ended entity but then so is context and your piece contained no context but was rather a big sloppy kiss to Scottish. And now I feel quite nauseous.

On a completely different subject I've just watched a film. Private Peaceful, set in the run up to and during WW1. Definitely worth a view. It wasn't just the Scots the English establishment was shit to, It was everybody, none more so than their own people.

[FarangRuMak]

I disagree.
I think my response was very contextual ie it addressed the fact that the clearances were firmly rooted in English politics specifically the war of the two kings and the accession to the throne of the Hanovarian line as opposed to the (Scottish) Stuart line after the death of Queen Anne. Of course there was local connivance by many clan chiefs in the mass forced evictions but that's a sub-plot.
I agree with your second point if I understand it correctly.
In 18th C. all power and wealth was vested in the nobility headed by royalty.
The common English footsoldier was on a penny a day for his services.
Enrichment through the army was for commissioned officers only.
For everone else it was a case of
"Their's not to question why
their's but to do and die" (after The Charge of the Light Brigade.)

[latintopxxx]

FRM..none of this is news to me, but different rules for different times...at least you are honest enough to include the fact that the scottish nobility (oxymoron??) played a very big role in clearing the land of peasants they no longer needed due to changes in farming....bit of a bonus actually as all of this human stock was spread across the world enriching it.
Bit like WW1....a disaster of such magnitude that finally broke the shackles the nobility had on everyone else...when a cobblers son realised he was just as bright of not brighter than some in bred duke.

[FarangRuMak]

WW1 changed everything.
The cobler's son finally got a break if he survived but at a terrible price paid for by his peers.
It's estimated that every town and village in Britain was stripped of the majority of young males.
"Lions led by donkeys" these young men were for sure.
Regarding Scotland and the clearances it has to be a knowledged that this was Scotland's Holocaust.
Not much is made of it because the victors aka beneficiaries wrote the history.
Making comparisons with other events at later times is fallacious.
People live only in their own time and place.

[scottish-guy]

FRM you are so right about the victors writing the history - but even in that there was a desire from within the British establishment to extinguish any notion of being Scottish.

Scottish history simply wasn't on the Scottish school curriculum. Generations (including me) were taught more about King Alfred burning his cakes somewhere in deepest Wessex than about the Declaration of Arbroath - one of the world's most important documents.

It was not until 2007 and the first SNP Govt that Scottish History was placed on the curriculum - to an absolute outcry from the Unionist press in general and in particular The Daily Mail (an English owned newspaper as all but one is - the odd one being I believe in American hands).

So every day we have an English owned press and an English national broadcaster propagandising Scots on how they are too wee, too poor, and too stupid to ever survive on their own, and how things like oil, gas, water, wind power, which would all be considered natural assets anywhere else in the world are, uniquely to Scotland a massive burden which we must let the benevolent English "manage" on our behalf.

With over 300 years of being told how shite our country is, it's little short of a miracle that the Scottish National Party has won the last seven elections in a row at all levels of Government.

This coincides with the rise of alternative media and the diminishing ability of the English (and the Scottish establishment who toady to them) to continue to brainwash our population.

[joe552]

SG, here in the Republic we've managed to fuck up our country on our own for the last 90 years. . I think it's high time the Scots were given the same rights to fuck things up for themselves

[frequent]

SG, here in the Republic we've managed to fuck up our country on our own for the last 90 years.Indeed - voting for "gay" marriage being but one example

[arsenal]

I agree with others that WW1 marked a turning point. I would suggest this had much to do with the fact that so many royal families went under during and after the war that it was obvious they had to change. Otherwise they too would eventually go and with them the entire ruling class.

[scottish-guy]

"We" (as in the UK in 2017) are on course to become one of the most unequal nations in the industrialised world.
The poorest 20% have 8% of the total income whilst the top 20% have 40% of the income and 20 times the wealth.
In some parts of the UK the life expectancy of males is worse than on the Gaza strip
So what exactly has "changed" apart from superficiality?
As ever "It's the rich wot gets the pleasure, it's the poor wot gets the blame Guv'nor"

[arsenal]

If you genuinely believe that there is no difference betwee the Btitain of 100 years ago and today then thete is little anyone can fo to reason with you.

[frequent]

If you genuinely believe that there is no difference betwee the Btitain of 100 years ago and today then thete is little anyone can fo to reason with you.Would scotty like living in the social conditions of 100 years ago?

[arsenal]

He lives in Scotland so perhaps he does. And if so, this is entirely the fault of the English.

[pennyboy]

SG, I think it's high time the Scots were given the same rights to fuck things up for themselves

We were given the opportunity in the Referendum but said "NO"

[arsenal]

Pennyboy wrote.
"We were given the opportunity in the Referendum but said "NO"."

The world looked on in amazement and awe as The UK allowed Scotland a free vote to decide and decide they did. No argument or whinge about leaving the EU since then makes any difference whatsoever. And everyone knows it regardless of what they may claim.

[frequent]

The world looked on in amazement and awe "amusement" possibly. Amazement, maybe

[arsenal]

The foreigners I spoke to were amazed but perhaps we spoke to different people. If they were amused then they failed to understand Britain.

They will no doubt however be highly amused by Scottishs' insistence on indy2 due to a change in circumstances. Probably amazed too.

[scottish-guy]

We were given the opportunity in the Referendum but said "NO"

The use of the word "given" - as if #Indyref1 was some gift handed down by a benevolent UK Govt for no reason except the goodness within their hearts - exposes the very great likelihood that obvious NO voter Pennyboy falls into the category of "I'm a proud Scot but...."

If Pennyboy wishes to get involved in the debate alongside racist and white supremacist Arsenal and racist pervert Rabbi - then he should start by explaining why #Indyef1 was called.

After doing so he might care to look at the company he keeps - but given that the NO camp welcomed such lovelies as the Orange Order, UKIP, Britain First, and many more odious groups then it might not bother him at all.

[arsenal]

I think the phrase white supremacist is unnecessary and rather inappropriate in this discussion. It's used to describe those who would live in a purely caucasion society and exclude other races to the point of ethnic cleansing. This is certainly not me. I recognise fully that which the ethnic minorities have brought to The UK. I'll edit it if you ask me to.

[scottish-guy]

Don't bother - it's my considered opinion based on your posting history.

I note you raise no objection to my "racist" comment though

:D

[arsenal]

As you choose.

[latintopxxx]

Can fully understand why sane rational people vote for the likes of trump...I would just to stick it to the leftie tree hugging illegal migrant welcoming halfwits...

[arsenal]

Well looking at the map regarding the dispersal of ethnic minorities throughout The UK it appears that there's only one white supremacist here. The one who wants to leave The UK and with it the multi-cultural society. His name is Scottishguy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_the_United_Kingdom

[scottish-guy]

Defy you to find any post of mine which is anti-multiculturalism.

That's all.

[latintopxxx]

...soooo stoooopid...still doesnt get it....needs to be beaten like a good carpet to be kept in place...ROFL...

[latintopxxx]

scat.boy...that means roll on floor laughing....

[arsenal]

In the white supremacist state of an independent Scotland will you be implementating the pencil test?

[latintopxxx]

...scatboy...waiting...be nimble...no place for slow old fellas...

[pennyboy]

The use of the word "given" - as if #Indyref1 was some gift handed down by a benevolent UK Govt for no reason except the goodness within their hearts - exposes the very great likelihood that obvious NO voter Pennyboy falls into the category of "I'm a proud Scot but...."

If Pennyboy wishes to get involved in the debate alongside racist and white supremacist Arsenal and racist pervert Rabbi - then he should start by explaining why #Indyef1 was called.

After doing so he might care to look at the company he keeps - but given that the NO camp welcomed such lovelies as the Orange Order, UKIP, Britain First, and many more odious groups then it might not bother him at all.

This crap is typical of the intolerance of some of the Yes voters. I have no time for any of the odious groups who were "welcomed" by either side and your suggestion that I do just confirms that you know fuck all about me. Anyway we have to accept that even odious groups are allowed to vote. That's democracy whether you like it or not.

[scottish-guy]

...intolerance of some of the Yes voters...

Oh dear, Dear

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[latintopxxx]

...some of them r cute...

[arsenal]

Pennyboy wrote. (to Scottish)
" That's democracy whether you like it or not."

Definitely 'not' in his case. He loses every election he's got a stake in. Scot Indy ref, Brexit, general election. The Guy couldn't win a bleedin raffle.

And you've got a few of your own son.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/1197078/sdl-march-edinburgh-police-anti/

[scottish-guy]

...some of them r cute...

So were some of the Hitler Youth - and better dressed

[scottish-guy]

.. He loses every election he's got a stake in...general election. The Guy couldn't win a bleedin raffle.

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[scottish-guy]

.. He loses every election he's got a stake in...Brexit. The Guy couldn't win a bleedin raffle.

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[scottish-guy]

.. He loses every election he's got a stake in...Scot Indy Ref. The Guy couldn't win a bleedin raffle.

You see that dotted area - won't take much to shrink it :p

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[joe552]

Isn't it lovely to see everyone getting along so well, and having fun?

[arsenal]

How many times did we hear about how Scotland wanted to be just like Norway? It was almost a mantra with old Salmond. We, naively believed he meant enjoying smoked fish, lovely scenery and excelling at alpine sports. However my research has revealed a far darker, perhaps almost sinister meaning. It turns out that with over 94% of the population being white Norway is one of the least diverse countries in Europe. So is that what we could expect from a white supremacist Scottish National Party government removed from the constraints of decency and law that Westminster currently holds?


http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/People/Ethnic-groups

[scottish-guy]

So, let's see if I've got this right:

The current Head Judge of a sex forum for middle-aged/elderly gay desperadoes (and a political worthless nothing) is now seeking to tell Alex Salmond what he meant?

Is that your proposition?

[arsenal]

Yes.

[scottish-guy]

In that case I'll treat it with the respect it deserves.

None.

[arsenal]

You are free, of course, to continue supporting a political party that eyes Norway's low ethnicity with jealousy. I'm not sure this liberal and well-managed private members club is the place to do it.

[scottish-guy]

What "we" are jealous about in relation to Norway is not their ethnic make up but (apart from the health and childcare programmes) that their Oil Fund (i.e the small amounts they put away for a rainy day) now tops one trillion dollars.

The U.K. - which discovered oil at the same time, denied Scotland an Oil Fund and put every penny into servicing the Thatcher policy of high unemployment which she described as being "a price worth paying"

Consequently Scotland's Oil Fund stands at zero, the U.K. debt at over TWO TRILLION DOLLARS, with the servicing of same costing around 60 billion dollars a year.

"The best of both worlds" indeed.

[arsenal]

It's not Scotland's oil, it's The UK' s oil so any fund would be split between the four nations. Also, the cost of living in Norway is about 30% higher than The UK and so tax revenues are higher per capita allowing for the fund.

Two other things. Norway can't defend themselves, so like Scotland in that respect. Easier to build up slush funds if another cpuntry is paying your defence bill. Isn't it Scottish?

Also. Use a prostitute in Thailand and you break Norwegian law facing possible arrest upon your return home.

[scottish-guy]

OK Len:

THE UK Oil Fund stands at zero, the UK debt at over TWO TRILLION DOLLARS, with the servicing of same costing the UK around 60 billion dollars a year.

What ever way you look at it, the Norwegians still have ONE TRILLION BUCKS in their fund and "we" have fuck all

Happier now? Good.

[scottish-guy]

...the cost of living in Norway is about 30% higher than The UK and so tax revenues are higher per capita allowing for the fund.


Average Monthly Net Salary (After Tax) NORWAY GBP 2,591.34 UK GBP 1,783.44

That should allow most Norwegians to buy a couple extra loaves of bread a week, no?

Further - the Norwegian Oil Fund is not funded out of general taxation.

Get your facts right Len

[scottish-guy]

..Norway can't defend themselves, so like Scotland in that respect. Easier to build up slush funds if another cpuntry is paying your defence bill. Isn't it Scottish?...

I've no idea - the fact is that Scotland contributes more than its population share of UK taxation and figures show there is a GBP 5.622 billion under spend on defence forces in Scotland.

Further - you can take your UK WMD from the Clyde and stick them in the Thames any day you like pal.

[arsenal]

If WW III kicks off then.......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Norway

That'll be you without The UK.

[joe552]

Look, I for one am sick of this endless point scoring between the two of you. Take it to PMs if you want, but you're both flooding the board with "local" politics, of which I imagine our friends overseas understand little. Surely the board is meant to be a place where like-minded guys can chat, have some banter (for sure) and maybe share our experiences of SE Asia.

Both of you (just to be specific - arsenal and scottish-guy - have just kept this going too long. If we were all in a pub, this kind of discussion would be fine, but it would finish at "chucking out" time (that's closing time, for our other readers).

So in the words of my (not) so dear departed father: shut the fuck up. (And yes, I've been drinking, but I'll be sober in the morning, and you two will still look like 15 year olds in a school playground).

So there you go.

[arsenal]

Suggestions noted Joe.

[latintopxxx]

have to agree with joe...damn