N/Korea...over reaction

[latintopxxx]

Friend works at a travel agency (yes strange but true that agencies still exist) and has lost 2 group bookings to Thailand over the fear that the US and N.Korea could start a nuclear war.
Over reaction???

[scottish-guy]

ASSERTION WARNING for Frequent:

Despite recent US propaganda, it's still highly doubtful that North Korea has capability to hit the US with a strike.

Far more likely they'd hit some US ally nearer to home (but not near enough to contaminate themselves presumably?).

Based on past performance that would mean the US would then take 2 or 3 years to enter any war.

:mocking_mini:

[Moses]

ASSERTION WARNING for Frequent:

Despite recent US propaganda, it's still highly doubtful that North Korea has capability to hit the US with a strike.

Far more likely they'd hit some US ally nearer to home (but not near enough to contaminate themselves presumably?).

Based on past performance that would mean the US would then take 2 or 3 years to enter any war.

:mocking_mini:


Hawaii are perfect target - sill USA but far from everything

[cdnmatt]

Two of the most bat shit insane world leaders we've seen in a long time are currently and publicly threatening each other with nuclear war. How do you think this is going to end? They're somehow going to come to a peaceful truce and agreement? Not likely.

The US DIA has been reporting since 2013 that North Korea has the capability to minituraize a nuclear weapon, so this is nothing new. The rhetoric definitely is new though.

Trump is going to back down. He's completley crazy, and in his mind wants to go down as some amazing and powerful leader who people will revere for generations to come, and he probably believes obliterating NK is a good way to do that.

Then NK leaders would rather die than give up the regime, so they're not going to back down either.

There is no way this is ending peacefully.
o

[frequent]

Despite recent US propaganda, it's still highly doubtful that North Korea has capability to hit the US with a strike.A far more interesting question is whether the US has something like the Stuxnet computer virus that they can deploy. I've seen it suggested that some of the recent test failures could have been as a result of the US trying out their cyber warfare capabilities

[scottish-guy]

Yes I read that suggestion too.

The UK/US Saddam WMD "intelligence" fiasco - which was later revealed to have been a tissue of lies - has made it very hard for sensible people to regard any of these carefully disseminated message as reliable.

[arsenal]

History has shown that when despotic/demonic leaders get large stockpiles of weapons they tend to like to use them. At some point. I can imagine a situation where America and her allies go in from the south and China/Russia go in from the north in a joint operation.

Because the idea of North Korea being able to hit mainland USA with nuclear weapons is too ghastly to contemplate.

The Chinese chickens are well and truly coming home to roost. For years it was to their advantage that America was taken up with North Korea. Now, it's a different story.

[scottish-guy]

History has shown that when despotic/demonic leaders get large stockpiles of weapons they tend to like to use them..

.... or at least threaten to do so.

Like Thatcher suggesting to Garret Fitzgerald in 1985 that she might bomb the Irish Republic.

And no, that's not a joke.

[arsenal]

Well Scottish I was referring to Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm, Hitler, Mao, Kennedy, The Russians, Saddam Hussein. But if you want to use a serious discussion to av a go at ol' Thatch then you go ahead.

I don't read Thatchers comment the same way you do Scottish. I don't read it a as a threat but a question of if this happened to you what would you do.

[aot871]

Never heard that before about maggie

[scottish-guy]

Never heard that before about maggie


Are you so surprised that someone who took the decision to murder 323 crew on board the General Belgrano when it was sailing away from a conflict zone might suggest she was prepared to bomb Dundalk because she believed Irish terrorists might be hiding there (though she could produce absolutely no evidence of that being the case)?

[arsenal]

Sinking enemy vessels is part of war Scottish regardless of when or where that vessel happens to be. The briefest of research on this will yield considerable information about it. Not that you will alter your opinion. And is this really the direction you want this discussion to go? It's a separate subject.

[latintopxxx]

scotty what a despicable comment...the sooner the English set you adrift the better...guess they have to get rid of the EU first seeing they are even bigger parasites that you lot.

[goji]

Based on past performance that would mean the US would then take 2 or 3 years to enter any war.
:mocking_mini:

Don't you mean past experience shows the US enters about 2 years later & only after the US is directly attacked ?

Anyway, whilst the US kindly prop up NATO at present (much appreciated), the major Western European countries need to make sure they can fend off prospective aggressors without external support. Just in case the external support backs out. We are a very long way from having sufficient military strength to do that at present.

[Nirish guy]

Are you so surprised that someone who took the decision to murder 323 crew on board the General Belgrano when it was sailing away from a conflict zone might suggest she was prepared to bomb Dundalk because she believed Irish terrorists might be hiding there (though she could produce absolutely no evidence of that being the case)?

Not hiding - living, just every day as normal.

[Omega]

North Korea are aiming for Nuclear weapons so they can have a boosted presence on the world stage.

The Kim dictatorship is not crazy, even tho it is oppressive, authoritarian and dangerous.

They're elites, wanting to stay in power. They don't want to be nuked to hell anymore than any other power hungry elite does. Their tough talk is for domestic consumption.

Trump is... unpredictable. It could be his tough talk is for domestic consumption as well; after all he's hardly having a honeymoon right now. But it could be the negotiating tactics of a man used to business deals where all that is lost is money.

All we mortals can do is hope both sides steer very clear of nuclear weapons.

[cdnmatt]

What's all this about the US taking 2 or 3 years to enter a war, or waiting to be attacked first? Maybe that was true back in WWII, but sure as hell isn't now.

The US policy as of late is to obliterate and invade sovereign nations that haven't yet attached the US. You know, just because the leader of that nation said nasty things to them, or similar. Better safe than sorry, so new US policy seems to be obliterate the country pre-emptively just in case they may try to attack in the future.

Now combine that with a selfish, mentally unstable, neurotic, deranged, pathogical lira, racist, deranged lunatic with a fragile ego and daddy issues who suffers from early stage dementia, and has such a short attention span NATO leaders have to be instructed to keep their speeches to 2 - 4 minutes, and the outcome doesn't look all that great.

[mahjongguy]

Whenever Margaret Thatcher is mentioned, I can't stop myself from smiling about Jo Brand's comment that "Lady Thatcher sounds like a device for removing pubic hair".

[frequent]

Now combine that with a selfish, mentally unstable, neurotic, deranged, pathogical lira, racist, deranged lunatic with a fragile ego and daddy issues who suffers from early stage dementia, and has such a short attention span NATO leaders have to be instructed to keep their speeches to 2 - 4 minutes, and the outcome doesn't look all that great.Don't hold back Matt, we don't want to be confused about your position on this

The utterances of Trump and the current object of the North Korean personality cult I put in the same category as the gogo boy who says "I do everything" but in reality does nothing

[cdnmatt]

I don't know, I guess time will tell. The orange oompa-loompa with a dead racoon on his head who currently resides in the White House )well, mainly his golf resorts) seems quite retarted, tempermental, narrow minded, and unpredictable.

Plus he still has the ability to unilaterally wage war without Congress' approval. There was some legislation on the table recently to strip that power from the president, which has granted to Bush in 2001 after the 9/11 attacks, but it fell through, so the President still retains that power.

Fun stuff....

[bobsaigon2]

Every single day we citizens of the US have to feel embarrassed, apologetic about what the "leader" of our country says/does. Now he's added the possibility, in response to the utterances of the North Korean numbskull, of a catastrophic war. Be grateful that you are of the UK or Canada or Australia or any other country than the US.

[sglad]

Every single day we citizens of the US have to feel embarrassed, apologetic about what the "leader" of our country says/does.

Whyyy, when one in two of you voted for him and have more in common with him than you'd care to admit? Don't take my word for it, see for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ugJZhL-cbc

[bobsaigon2]

I didn't vote for him and every US citizen I've talked with also avoided putting him into office. That's whyyy.

[cdnmatt]

bob, flip it around though and think of the silver lining. Consider the US under a massive stress test right now, and the system and institutions are holding up just fine. Aside from executive orders Trump hasn't been able to do much damage, and the institutions and systems in place in the US are still humming long just fine.

There are many countries out there that if put under the same stress that Trump provides, they would buckle or be much worse for wear. So it's not all bad. :)

Still quite the waste of 4 years though. If he even manages to make it the full 4 years, I can't see him passing any mjor legislation at all. He only has about 2 - 3 months lef, and I would be very surprised if anything happens during that time. Then it's holidays, and everyone is gearing up for the mid-terms, which Republicans will definitely lose, and then no chance of Trump passing any of his shitty agenda once Democrats control at least the house.

What baffles me is how his base still seems to blindly support him, especially considering is trying to do almost everything in his power to devastate their lives, and make their lives as horrible as he can, while benefiting his millionaire and billionaire buddies.

Dpm't worry though, I'm quite confident that the vast majority of the world knows that Trump doesn't speak for all Americans. We know Trump is just an irreversibly damaged human, while the majority of Americans are pretty good folk.

[sglad]

I didn't vote for him and every US citizen I've talked with also avoided putting him into office. That's whyyy.

Then how did he become president? Fake news? Computer error?

Magic?

[cdnmatt]

Because the US has a retarded system where the person with the most vote somehow loses.

Not to mention, I would imagine a good number of Americans (wrongly) assumed that there was no chance in hell Trump would win, hence didn't bother voting.

The same US voted Obama in for 8 years, and he was an excellent president. That same US still exists today, just with an ill tempered orange oopma-loompa as president.

EDIT: Oh, and almost forgot. Having Putin and Russian intelligence on your side helping you out quite obviously helps move an election along in your favor.

[sglad]

Because the US has a retarded system where the person with the most vote somehow loses.

Not to mention, I would imagine a good number of Americans (wrongly) assumed that there was no chance in hell Trump would win, hence didn't bother voting.

Still, a substantial number of people voted for Trump, almost one in two or half. The Electoral College system, which is a variation of the very common Westminster first-by-the-post system has its pluses and minuses. There's no guarantee that appointing the winner of the popular vote would lead to a fair and good government. It's about the people - government for the people, by the people and all that. The fact that they took their democratic duties so lightly by not going to vote says something about them. I voted for the first time two years ago. I don't pretend that I come from a fantastically democratic country but I took my duty as a citizen seriously and didn't take anything for granted.

[cdnmatt]

Good for you. Did you want a cookie?

[sglad]

Good for you. Did you want a cookie?

No, thanks. Too late for a snack. I'm going to hit the sack. Night.

[goji]

bob, flip it around though and think of the silver lining. Consider the US under a massive stress test right now, and the system and institutions are holding up just fine. Aside from executive orders Trump hasn't been able to do much damage, and the institutions and systems in place in the US are still humming long just fine.

That's a good way of looking at it, but he's only been in the job just over 6 months.

[cdnmatt]

True, and he pissed off all of his political capital in about the first four months on nothing. He's right, and is definitely the best at some things, just not in the way he thinks. Hell, it cook Clinton 6 years to get impeached, and Trump might have that little feat accomplished during his first year. :)

The guy doesn't really have any political capital left, and it's not like he's going to gain some anytime soon, because he keeps going around publicly berating and attacking leading members of his own party. He even ran out of executive orders to sign a while ago, so began having big signing ceremonies with the media and cameras present for memos to Congress.wxx

[scottish-guy]

ASSERTION WARNING:

There is no democratic justification for either the American electoral college system or the UK FPTP system. Highest share of the popular vote ought to decide the UK Govt/US Prez IMHO

Sure I've heard all the arguments about how the UK system (usually) results in a strong and stable Govt- but that's gone for a Burton now that the UK Govt has to be propped up by (at best) terrorist sympathisers and (at worst) actual/former terrorists

Oh, and I quite liked Clinton - anybody who will risk everything for a quick BJ and then deny it ever happened definitely strikes a chord with me.

Now if you'll excuse me I've got a bottle of very good red wine and an Eartha Kitt album to finish.

Where Is My Man ....... Purrrrrrrrrr

[arsenal]

As truly awful as he is, Donald Trump is actually trying his absolute best to prevent a rogue state like North Korea from acquiring nuclear weapons. Weapons that will be able to take out Los Angeles. It also seems to me that he is trying to do this virtually single handed when simple but clear language from the five permanent members of The UN Security Council would probably be sufficient.

Something like "Oi Fat Boy, lose the nuclear shit or we're coming in. Got it?"

And Scottish. Your homework on the sinking of the General Belgrano (she survived the Pearl Harbour attack you know) is overdue.

[TaoR]

Each state is allowed electors based upon the number of House and Senate members they have and every state has two Senators regardless of the population of the state and each state has a minimum of one House member. Subsequently, Wyoming has three electors for a population of 560,000. California with a population of over 39,000,000 has 55 electors. Then add to the fact that Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, and Pennslyvania have lost population since the last census was used to determine House seats they had more electors than their population deserved and these four states represented 21% of Trump's total electoral college win. Then when you add to this, the fact that all but three states award their electors on a winner take all basis its pretty easy to understand that national elections are not all that representative of a nation.

As our elections are run on the state and local level and with the Republicans controlling 27 states totally (Governor, House, and Senate) and the Democrats only controlling 6 its quite obvious that the gerrymandering and restricting of voting access and tightening of voter standards will only continue through the 2020 census.

Its not a very democratic picture and its only going to get worse.

This just lays out the arena in which Democratic candidates have to compete in then when you add to the fact that the Democrats were pursuing a flawed strategy with a flawed candidate and with absolutely no desire to broaden their base beyond the Obama coalition they pretty much left a whole group (white, non college educated voters which make up 32% of the US population) with no choice but to vote Trump and they did so gladly.

[arsenal]

Political demagoguery is an art form. Pitch it too low and you'll alienate the majority, pitch it too high and you'll fail to reach your target mob. In electoral terms both Donald Trump and Nigel Farage got their pitch just right and hence they both won. Unfortunately.

[cdnmatt]

I'm sure I'll get chastized for this, but why not just life the sanctions on NK, and accept the fact they're a nuclear power? They're not going to pre-emptively attack the US or any other country for that matter. They're not that stupid, know it would be suicide, and the main thing they care about is that their regime remains intact and in power.

The only chance of them doing a pre-emptive strike is by squeezing them with sanctions and making their life a living hell. Isn't that basically why Japan entered WWII on this Acis side?

I know NK started the Korean war, but that was more than 70 years ago, and the geo-political landscape has slightly changed since then. So why, because they're communist, which is the main reason cited for the US coming to South Korea's aid? That can't be it, because we love us some China. Maybe because they don't treat their citizens very humanely? Well, that's loads of countries, and we seem to think Saudi Arabia is the cat's ass, so that can't be it either.

NK looks out into the world, and sees nothing but enemies who want to invade, and destory their regime. All they want is their sovereignty, so give it to them, let them do some free trade with other nations, and so on, and maybe they'll tamper down the rhetoric. They're not going to invade anyone, because they know that's a death sentence for their regime.

The US has been bitching for decades that they will never allow NK to become a nuclear power. Well, we lost that one, because they're now a nuclear power and if reports are true are capable of nuclear ICBMs. Might as well change the rhetoric coming from our side since it's now a moot point, and approach this with a fresh look given the new situation,, no?

Maybe I'm wrong though...

[arsenal]

Matt wrote:
"Maybe I'm wrong though..."

That's why.

[frequent]

Every single day we citizens of the US have to feel embarrassed, apologetic about what the "leader" of our country says/does. Now he's added the possibility, in response to the utterances of the North Korean numbskull, of a catastrophic war. Be grateful that you are of the UK or Canada or Australia or any other country than the US.Trust me, Bob, you Americans have nothing at all to be embarrassed or apologetic about. Year after year an American president has provided the rest of the world with entertainment, viz

Gerald Ford who famously couldn't walk and fart at the same time
Hoppalong and his astrology loving, just say no wife
"Poppy" Bush with his mistress and his wife both in the White House
Bill "I did not have sex with that woman" Clitoris along with State-sponsored pornography in the form of the Starr Report
George Bush - eight years of 7-11
Barry "Yes we can't" Obama
And now Donald "Just grab them by the pussy" Trump
As I say, nothing at all to be embarrassed or apologetic about. We should be paying you for the non-stop entertainment

[frequent]

I'm sure I'll get chastized for this, but why not just life the sanctions on NK, and accept the fact they're a nuclear power? They're not going to pre-emptively attack the US or any other country for that matter. They're not that stupid, know it would be suicide, and the main thing they care about is that their regime remains intact and in power.Unfortunately the role of Secretary-General of the UN was recently filled, otherwise you'd be a shoo-in

[scottish-guy]

.. And Scottish. Your homework on the sinking of the General Belgrano (she survived the Pearl Harbour attack you know) is overdue.

You chastised me and told me it was a separate subject - make your fucking mind up.

[arsenal]

Scottish. 0/10. Must do better.

[Steve1903]

At some point. I can imagine a situation where America and her allies go in from the south and China/Russia go in from the north in a joint operation.



I don't see where that would come from. Neither Russia nor China are going to attack NK alongside the US. China are the only source of potential happy ending here. If and when the US do finally come to the end of their tether with Blofeld then this should be made clear to China to give them the final chance to sort out the imbecile (the NK one) before taking any action.
Should action have to be taken then the only way to prevent WW3 would be with a quick destroy the regime and get the fuck out tactic. Any attempt to stay and impose a west friendly regime there would have consequences most would rather avoid.

[arsenal]

Steve1903. They wouldn't be alongside (although remember WW 2 when all three were on the same side to fight a common enemy) they would be fighting separately to achieve a common goal. In all likelihood the North Korean forces would put up little resistance knowing that defeat was inevitable. Similar to The Republican Guard in the Iraq invasion.

[frequent]

5176

The wonderful Australian/New Zealand cartoonist Alan Moir

[cdnmatt]

What the fuck is Trump doing now? Christ is this guy ever a clown...

Is he actively trying to start another civil war in the US, or maybe will just settle for some riots and getting people killed?

[cdnmatt]

Oh good, looks like the Nazis are feeling quite good right now, and are planning some more rallies. I'm assuming this means we'll see groups like the Black Panthers in the news soon?

[arsenal]

Re: Freakybum's post. No 44.

That's what most of us think about Latin.

[latintopxxx]

post no.44?? cant you just copy/paste it here?? damned if i could bother searching for it. No doubt it will be all praise and admiration.

[Marsilius]

A few days ago I read that a Chinese newspaper that's generally held to trot out the government line said that (1) if NK struck first China would remain neutral, but (2) if NK were the first to be attacked China would support her as an ally.

Thankfully the earlier rhetoric from both sides appears to have lessened in the last few days - but with both US and NK leaders so volatile, who know what the future holds?