A future for Soi Pratuchai?

[bobsaigon2]

Dreamboys staff had a meeting recently at which it was announced that Soi Pratuchai will shut down within 2 years. That's all I know. Cannot provide any details or more info.

[werner]

Is Soi Pratuchai the soi in Bangkok off of Silom with a lot of gay venues, including Dream Boys?

[a447]

I was talking to the German owner of Dreamboys and he indicated he would probably retire soon, as his health was failing and in any case, he didn't need the money. So maybe he announced to his staff that the end is nigh.

Once his two bars close, then I think that will be the end of the soi, as the other bars seem incapable of attracting large Chinese tour groups.

Unless someone with a good head for business takes over the two bars.

Then again, maybe the soi is up for redevelopment.

I hope someone can dig a bit deeper and find out what's really going on. Or corner the German and ask him. He, of all people, would know.

If the soi really is going to close, we'll soon know - he will quickly put his bars up for sale before word gets out and it's too late.

[Manforallseasons]

I do think the Soi is at the end of it's run however, that might not be a bad thing as it would likely cause a new area to do somthing interesting....My quess with the rate of developement Soi Twilight is worth much more than the gay venues on it.

[fountainhall]

Is Soi Pratuchai the soi in Bangkok off of Silom with a lot of gay venues, including Dream Boys?
It's actually off Suriwong - and, yes, it is where Dream Boys, Hotmale and other gogo bars are located. The announcement is interesting because at least two of the Boards have had recent threads re how Soi Twlight (as it is often called after the original Twilight gogo bar) can continue given the substantial reduction of western visitors looking to off boys and the increase in Chinese and other Asians only interested in just one drink and seeing the shows.

Having viewed the soi as it rose and has fallen, I cannot see a future as part of Bangkok's gay scene. I suspect there is just not enough requirement for total redevelopment in upper Suriwing yet. So as earlier discussed, maybe it will morph for a while into a sort of Silom Soi 4 ( where Telephone and Balcony bars are located).

Soi Twilight's decline comes as Silom Soi 4 thrives. If only the owners had a spark of innovation the Soi could perhaps continue for a few years longer. But for those looking for bars with boys - I cannot call them gogo bars! - there will still be the bars further down Suriwong not far from Tawan..

[Manforallseasons]

As fountainhall has mentioned there are a few bars where boys can be offed near Tawan namely Super A, Golden cock and Nature Boys.

[a447]

Those are the very bars I hang out in whenever I go to Bangkok these days . Last visit back December /January I only went to Soi Twilight for the X-boys show then invariably ended up back in Soi Tawan.

The only problem is, Super A, Natureboy and Golden Cock rarely have any customers - 9 times out of 10 I'm sitting there all alone. On the odd occasion a customer turns up at SuperA or Natureboy, they stick their head in the door then turn around and go somewhere else. I've yet to see a night time customer in Golden Cock.

There's no way those bars would attract the cashed-up Chinese - they don't make it past Tawan - and for some reason the area is also avoided by farang.

Perhaps they don't know it exists. In any case, they would find it a waste of time, as Natureboy rarely has more than 2 boys (!) and the guys at SuperA are rather unattractive. Also, their English is by and large non -existent.

Golden Cock has some attractive guys but they only turn up for work when they feel like it.

[BonTong]

Soit Twilight has an apt name - darkness will soon fall - permanently. Aside from what this or that bar may do, or perhaps bigger redevelopment plans, the business model has no future. Being a prostitute, especially working in a whore house, is now neither socially acceptable nor economically necessary for most Thai boys. Just look around the soi at the guys working there; aside from those from neighbouring countries the quality ain't what it was. And the numbers of those who might consider such a career is further being suppressed by the penal system as so many end up inside for drugs.

Further factors affect the customer base. Despite what foreigners see in BKK or Patts, Thais have always been the vast majority of customers for the business (albeit in maybe cheaper places than Twilight). Again, social acceptability for Thais means everyone must be much more discreet - something now facilitated by the internet. For many Farangs the attraction of Thailand was it was cheap - well not anymore. Prices are up across the board both due to inflation and exchange rate issues (depending on one's provenance). And those Thai guys openly selling their arse now do so for a premium price.

[AsDaRa]

Being a prostitute, especially working in a whore house, is now neither socially acceptable nor economically necessary for most Thai boys.

And those Thai guys openly selling their arse now do so for a premium price.

Two remarks here.

I understood from people who can know that the short time prize is pretty stable over the years. In Pattaya 1200 baht short time is possible and that is about the same prize as it was 10 years ago, when there were no apps (as I understood).

I doubt many boys have better oppertunities now. Prostitution is the most easy way to have a monthly income with not too much work. Many boys only have primary education (this is not rare at all). They can only get boring, badly paid jobs, for 8 hours a day. Then end of month they receive their 10.000 baht salary. They can earn this amount also - and far more easily - by just taking 6 customers in a month. So 6 hours work can get them the same compared to 160 hours of work. Then I know what I would choose if I was a good looking Thai boy and I was facing these two options.

[latintopxxx]

BonTong u must be very mistaken. Anyone who opens up their Grindr app in Pattaya will be flooded by offers of cheap paid sex....not sure what u mean by premium. Even for me BHT1000 is not outrageous. I do agree that the proliferation of hookup apps have decimated the gogo bars but I guess thats what disruptive technology does and its up to the bars to evolve and innovate of they want to stay in biz.

[latintopxxx]

...and asdara has merely stated the obvious....even a pig ugly gogo can make more money than a gorgeous construction worker.

[BonTong]

I don't know about Pattaya, but this thread was about Soi Pratuchai in BKK. Here prices have definitely increased! It's not just about money though. It's about social acceptability too. With the internet everyone knows everyone's business; it's much harder for a boy to leave home saying he's off to work in BKK and then work in a go-go without risking being discovered.

The old adage applies, don't judge a book by its cover. If all you see is the go-go boy in the bar, and how much he wants for short time you are missing the big picture. Get out into the countryside, small towns and villages. Here things have changed enormously. People may not be rich, but from what I see the average family is doing much better than fifteen years ago. The economic imperative is not there like it used to be. Yes, "even a pig ugly gogo can make more money than a gorgeous construction worker". But, why would they want to when they can now enjoy a more acceptable lifestyle back at home with friends and family?

[fountainhall]

I don't know about Pattaya, but this thread was about Soi Pratuchai in BKK. Here prices have definitely increased! It's not just about money though. It's about social acceptability too
It's always too easy to assume that Thailand is one of the most sexually liberal countries in the region. It is not. It is one of the most conservative.

[fountainhall]

I doubt many boys have better oppertunities now. Prostitution is the most easy way to have a monthly income with not too much work..
We all know that there are two sex industries in Thailand - one for the Thais which westerners rarely if ever discover - and one for visiting tourists and expats. When gay go-go bars first started, they must have seemed like manna from heaven for many country guys. They could put out of their minds the fat smelly hairy western body humping them for a while and think only of the Baht they would be handed when they could go back to their mates.

Since the government's first Social Order campaign in 2001, far more Thais became far more openly aware of the foreigner-based "entertainment" business - the sex business, in other words. And the vast majority did not like it. Poll after poll showed that the curtailing of the industry through things like shortening of opening hours and the zoning of entertainment businesses were extremely popular with Thais throughout the country. Over time, being a gay prostitute was no longer regarded as that enviable source of oodles of Baht. Indeed, for many more boys there is now a stigma attached to it than there ever was before. Why do you think there are so many Cambodians, Lao and Vietnamese boys now working legally or illegally in the sec business here? Because they are in the same economic circumstances of the Thai boys of yesteryear. Plus they are far from home so there is no fear of stigma at home.

That's not to say young Thai guys are not as interested in sex as any others. They are - only most now prefer sex with other Thais. Accordingly there is now a thriving industry in catering for this new young market, largely in gay Thai saunas some of which have their own no-holds-barred shows.

Of course there will always be money boys. I just agree with BonTong that social conditions in this already very conservative country are changing faster than before. As has been said by many posters over the last two years or so, the go-go bar model which flourished at its peak 15 - 30 years ago can not last. The owners failed to keep up with the times and really had no idea what their audience base wanted. Like the dinosaurs, their extinction is only a matter of time.

[AsDaRa]

You know Thailand better than I do, so I think you are right.

But this means the social stigma of being a money boy (for Farang or for Thai customers) forces many Thai boys now in badly paid jobs. Where they have far less free time than with the other option. That must then also be true, not?

Also if there still is a prostitution market for local Thai men than that is strange. Because I doubt they pay these boys the same we Farang pay them. Then why go as Thai boy with a Thai customer, if he pays less?

Question: are some members still in contact with boys they offed 20 years ago, or even longer ago? These boys (now men) are now in their early 40s. How are they now making a living? Very curious to that.

[fountainhall]

But this means the social stigma of being a money boy (for Farang or for Thai customers) forces many Thai boys now in badly paid jobs. Where they have far less free time than with the other option. That must then also be true, not?
Definitely not true. Why do you even suggest it "forces" Thais into badly paid jobs? The option remains. The fact is that far fewer boys see open prostitution in go-go bars as an option. The idea is anathema to them. Do you automatically assume that day labourers and poorly paid handsome young men in your country take these jobs in preference to working as prostitutes? You overestimate the number of guys around prepared to sell their bodies.


Also if there still is a prostitution market for local Thai men than that is strange. Because I doubt they pay these boys the same we Farang pay them. Then why go as Thai boy with a Thai customer, if he pays less?
It's frankly not strange at all. It's far less economics than social issues. The number of Thais in the country who interact with westerners is tiny! So it's not at all a case of let's be fucked by westerners because they'll pay more. I reckon it's much more a case of I'll go with guys I'm familiar with. I suspect some of these Thai men treat the money boys worse than most westerners. But that's entirely a matter for them.


Question: are some members still in contact with boys they offed 20 years ago, or even longer ago? These boys (now men) are now in their early 40s. How are they now making a living? Very curious to that.
Strangely, I did have a short fling with a money boy 21 years ago. He ended up going to university - the first ever in his family - and getting a degree. He then started a business which failed. So he got s job in a retail business, saved money and started a second business with a stall at Chatuchak. He still runs that business which now has several outlets in Bangkok. He regularly travels to India and China to source materials. We keep in touch and still meet occasionally for lunch.

Don't fall into the habit of assuming that western logic rules the world. It doesn't. Westerners who have lived in Thailand spend years trying and failing to come to terms with Thai logic!

[BonTong]

But this means the social stigma of being a money boy (for Farang or for Thai customers) forces many Thai boys now in badly paid jobs. Where they have far less free time than with the other option. That must then also be true, not?

In Chiang Mai I'd say the majority of guys you will meet online are either students or have a job (might well be different in Pattaya). If they want some cash it's a sideline, not their main occupation. For the few that have opted for the full-time money boy lifestyle its usually not pretty and may well involve a bunch of illegal activities :stop_mini:.

Much better work in seven and discreetly make a few extra $$ than join that downward spiral towards the jail, or worse.


Question: are some members still in contact with boys they offed 20 years ago, or even longer ago? These boys (now men) are now in their early 40s. How are they now making a living? Very curious to that.

Not 20 years but more than 15. Still see a few Soi twilight old hands back in their country homes. Once a hustler always a hustler, even if they are not selling themselves. Was just joking the other day about how many former giks now wear pink aprons!

[BonTong]

I suspect some of these Thai men treat the money boys worse than most westerners.In many cases I also suspect you are right, but even if the financial reward may be lower it will be delivered in a respectful Thai way so no one loses face. A lot of Thai's get in go-go/karaoke bars in Chiang Mai. It's interesting to watch the often subtle nuances of their interactions with the boys.

That said, a lot of Thais are very generous - something which hierarchical Thai society demands. It is the more wealthy Thai's you see in the bars entertaining several boys with a bottle or two of whiskey, not the farangs. And, for a gay Thai it's a really good gig to be the "mia noi" for a wealthy married Thai Chinese.

[a447]

Two remarks here.

I understood from people who can know that the short time prize is pretty stable over the years. In Pattaya 1200 baht short time is possible and that is about the same prize as it was 10 years ago, when there were no apps (as I understood).

I doubt many boys have better oppertunities now. Prostitution is the most easy way to have a monthly income with not too much work. Many boys only have primary education (this is not rare at all). They can only get boring, badly paid jobs, for 8 hours a day. Then end of month they receive their 10.000 baht salary. They can earn this amount also - and far more easily - by just taking 6 customers in a month. So 6 hours work can get them the same compared to 160 hours of work. Then I know what I would choose if I was a good looking Thai boy and I was facing these two options.

What you say reflects what the boys have told me over the years.

I'm not a butterfly; I have regular guys in the places I visit, and they all speak very good English. As we've gotten to know each other over the years they've opened up and told me many interesting things about their work as moneyboys.

Not one boy has ever said he enjoys the work but they have all commented on the fact that it is easy money. Mind you, the guys I choose are hot hunks with all the required attributes so when I'm not in town they are all making lots of money. As they say, there's no way they could ever make this kind of money doing a normal job.

They all have at least one thing in common - they do not waste their money on drink and drugs; rather, they are saving up for the time when they can no longer work as moneyboys.

A lot of guys in Thailand (and in any country for that matter) would find the job distasteful and would never dream of prostituting themselves. They are willing to accept working long hours for little money. And good luck to them, if that's what they want. It's their life.

On the other hand, there are heaps of guys for whom the temptation of easy money is just impossible to resist. Many young guys want to enjoy the endless parties that such easy money affords them. Some will disappear in a cloud of yabaa whilst others will make a go of it and come out the other end with enough money to set themselves up for life.

Their choice.

[fountainhall]

And, for a gay Thai it's a really good gig to be the "mia noi" for a wealthy married Thai Chinese.
Its virtually the same in many countries. A good-looker with good manners and a sense of style can become a kept boy for a few years in which he will probably be given an apartment, a car, a large clothing allowance, cash - and a big bonus when his patron wants to move on to someone else. I know of more than two quite prominent Bangkok businessmen who have provided apartments and all the other trimmings for their boyfriends/girlfriends - and rumour has it their wives are perfectly well aware of the situation. Certainly if they read the gossip magazines they're bound to know! But then many Thais have second wives quite openly.

[Oliver]

The huge numbers of Thai guys who came to Pattaya and Bangkok twenty/thirtyvyears ago came because of dire circumstances at home. An issue often neglected is that of family-size. Thailand had an effective birth-control programme (still has?) and the younger children in large families were particularly vulnerable. Hence their desire to move to urban centres and make money, much of which returned to their parents. With smaller families, the need is not so great.

[cdnmatt]

nice post Oliver. I think there's a few other variables at play too.

- Thais have become more modernized / Westernized, so family loyalty isn't quite what it once was. still very strong, but not quite as much as decades ago.

- Many will disagree with me, but middle class here has expanded greatly over the last 15 or so years. All that Gdp growth Thailand has enjoyed -- some of it has trickled down to even somchai selling somtam in the village. Hence, there's not as much of a need to prostitute yourself.

- probably most importantly, the stereotype of the farang has changed quite a bit over the decades. I would imagine back in say the vietnam war era, the stereotype was farangs were generally GIs who were young, healthy, good looking, had a pocket full of cash, and all the ambition in the world. Nowdays, I think it's changed into more of a 65yo fat, alcoholic guy living on a small pension, and wears a wife beater every day. Hence, ambition to rush down to Pattaya to get hitched with a farang has waned a little.

- Another one is the media in this country. They love to chastise foreigners for anything and everything wrong, and I'm uncertain if that was the case 30 or 40 years ago.

[fountainhall]

I would imagine back in say the vietnam war era, the stereotype was farangs were generally GIs who were young, healthy, good looking, had a pocket full of cash, and all the ambition in the world. Nowdays, I think it's changed into more of a 65yo fat, alcoholic guy living on a small pension, and wears a wife beater every day. Hence, ambition to rush down to Pattaya to get hitched with a farang has waned a little.
Interesting points in the last 2 posts. I'm not quite so sure about the Vietnam War, though, as it ended in 1973. I expect some of the GIs may have been after boys, but whilst girlie go-go bars had certainly started to sprout up, there were few if any gay go-go bars by then. Even in 1980 Bangkok had less than a handful. But the western clientele during the 1980s and 90s was certainly a lot younger on average than in more recent years.

[fountainhall]

I would imagine back in say the vietnam war era, the stereotype was farangs were generally GIs who were young, healthy, good looking, had a pocket full of cash, and all the ambition in the world. Nowdays, I think it's changed into more of a 65yo fat, alcoholic guy living on a small pension, and wears a wife beater every day. Hence, ambition to rush down to Pattaya to get hitched with a farang has waned a little.
Interesting points in the last 2 posts. I'm not quite so sure about the Vietnam War, though, as it ended in 1975. I expect some of the GIs may have been after boys, but whilst girlie go-go bars had certainly started to sprout up, there were few if any gay go-go bars by then. Even in 1980 Bangkok had less than a handful and I'm not sure if there was even one gogo bar in Pattaya - just a few host-type bars (but I am not sure of this). But the western clientele during the 1980s and 90s was certainly a lot younger on average than in more recent years.

[bobsaigon2]

Without reference to the GI's who used Thailand for R&R: Thirty or forty years ago (my first arrival was in 1972), most of the foreigners coming to Thailand for an extended stay were teachers, advisers, engineers, researchers, in short, people who were needed, people who could be utilized to improve the country in some way. Thus, farang were treated respectfully simply because they could be employed either for the greater good, or for the good of particular Thais. Then came the backpackers and no one felt compelled to give them much respect. And then, thanks to reduced air fares and to Thailand's growing reputation as the sex capital of SE Asia, there came a rather large percentage of foreigners who had not the slightest notion of contributing to the betterment of Thai society. So the Thai media chastise farang now because they are no longer "untouchable" (and because some deserve it), or simply because the Thai media don't have the freedom to chastise khon Thai. IMHO

[Manforallseasons]

Without reference to the GI's who used Thailand for R&R: Thirty or forty years ago (my first arrival was in 1972), most of the foreigners coming to Thailand for an extended stay were teachers, advisers, engineers, researchers, in short, people who were needed, people who could be utilized to improve the country in some way. Thus, farang were treated respectfully simply because they could be employed either for the greater good, or for the good of particular Thais. Then came the backpackers and no one felt compelled to give them much respect. And then, thanks to reduced air fares and to Thailand's growing reputation as the sex capital of SE Asia, there came a rather large percentage of foreigners who had not the slightest notion of contributing to the betterment of Thai society. So the Thai media chastise farang now because they are no longer "untouchable" (and because some deserve it), or simply because the Thai media don't have the freedom to chastise khon Thai. IMHO

This might be the most intuitive post about farangs in Thailand that I've read to date.

[AsDaRa]

Thirty or forty years ago (my first arrival was in 1972)

My God, I was born in 1972. So you already visit Thailand for 44 years. Life has been kind to you, very kind.
I hope life awards me so many decades of sex tourism also. I am however afraid it will already end for me in my 3rd year (if I loose my job, which is not that unlikely to happen in one of the coming years).

[latintopxxx]

AsDaRa...why so negatively fatalistic???
And am afraid that I have to disagree with all u armchair specialists....again as mentioned earlier all one has to do is log onto one of the numerous hook up apps to receive multiple invites on a daily basis. BKK/Pattaya is awash with whores peddling their wares...dont judge the commercial sex scene by the state of the bars....business model has evolved..MB has cut out the public humiliation of having to parade around in public shaking his booty to attract customers...has also cut out the middle man...BKK/Pattaya is still the place to be if one is a committed sex tourist. Definitely more bang for ones buck.

[BonTong]

- Many will disagree with me, but middle class here has expanded greatly over the last 15 or so years. All that Gdp growth Thailand has enjoyed -- some of it has trickled down to even somchai selling somtam in the village. Hence, there's not as much of a need to prostitute yourself.

Absolutely agree!




- Another one is the media in this country. They love to chastise foreigners for anything and everything wrong, and I'm uncertain if that was the case 30 or 40 years ago.
The media has an enormous role - people are now much better informed than 15 years ago. Back then, out in the countryside many houses hardly had electricity, let alone TV sets. Now, even in remote villages TVs and satellite dishes are everywhere and many people have smart phones. Although the education system here may be lacking, people now have other sources of knowledge, from social media to Thai soaps. Older foreigners being seen together with young Thais (of either gender) is now viewed as somewhat distasteful. Especially when the latest raid on a girlie bar is broadcast live on TV!

[fountainhall]

My God, I was born in 1972. So you already visit Thailand for 44 years. Life has been kind to you, very kind.
I hope life awards me so many decades of sex tourism also.
I have to agree with Latin that too often your outlook is too negative. Life is a great deal brighter and more fascinating when you banish those thoughts and be much more positive about the future.

I can recall some time around 1987 when I became similarly negative. AIDS had started to take its toll in Thailand and it was announced in the Hong Kong media that bar owners here were talking about banning guys from Hong Kong because more cases had developed there (where I worked). Gay sauna owners in Japan were also on the point of banning non-Japanese in the belief that this would prevent AIDS from spreading (a forlorn hope as AIDS was already taking its deadly toll). Selfishly I thought my sex life would all but come to an end - and I was younger then than you now.

As things turned out the Thai bar owners did not ban anyone, although the Japanese saunas remained closed to foreigners for many years. And there was still lots of gay sex to be found almost everywhere in Asia, even in Singapore and Malaysia where it was - and remains - technically illegal. So my concerns were totally unfounded. But if you are worried about the future of your sex life, please be very, very thankful you never had to live through those dreadful early years of AIDS when infection meant death.

[ggobob]

Shifting back to the first few posts in this thread about the demise of Soi Twilight...a walk down Surawong shows buildings between Le Meredian and the Montien's entrance to be covered in pre-development wrap, and at the other end there is major development happening, with condo being constructed at Ashton Place. Suspect since there is no Landmarks Commission to hold developers back, a real estate deal will eventually kill off all but memories.

[fountainhall]

. . . Then came the backpackers and no one felt compelled to give them much respect. And then, thanks to reduced air fares and to Thailand's growing reputation as the sex capital of SE Asia, there came a rather large percentage of foreigners who had not the slightest notion of contributing to the betterment of Thai society.
One short anecdote. I vividly recall arriving in Bangkok from Singapore in 1989 and seeing an Air Europe 747 from somewhere in England (I will not offend sensibilities by naming the departure airport) disgorging what appeared to be a full planeload largely made up of cheap package tourists who looked like a caricature of louts from a 1960s move - slightly fat women in too-tight floral miniskirts and beehive hairstyles, groups of unshaven drunk young men, beer bottles in hand, ruffled shirts out (decades before it became the fashion) and singing vaguely pornographic songs etc. . . As I walked to Immigration, I thought "What have the Thais done to deserve this?"

[AsDaRa]

All that Gdp growth Thailand has enjoyed -- some of it has trickled down to even somchai selling somtam in the village. Hence, there's not as much of a need to prostitute yourself


But how can you live a middle class live from the average 10.000 baht salary that many Thais receive? At least this is about the most common salary I hear quoted on forums and from Thais (working in 7-11 or working in a shop or being a hotel receptionist, that is about your monthly salary).

You can't even have your own descent room with such a salary, but need to share.

Say you are married and your monthly income is 20.000 baht, can you live a middle class live with your wife and two kids from that in Pattatya? Maybe in the country side. But in a city?

[fountainhall]

Say you are married and your monthly income is 20.000 baht, can you live a middle class live with your wife and two kids from that in Pattatya? Maybe in the country side. But in a city?
Vast numbers of Thais do! But you are again bringing your own European sensitivities into a Thai context. Your ideas of class are certainly far from those of the average Thai.

For example, what is the approx. size in square meters of your house or apartment? The average Thai couple with one or two kids and climbing the economic ladder is moving into Bangkok and seeking apartments of around 35 - 40 sq. m. That is the average size of most apartments now being constructed as Bangkok continues to grow outwards. How many middle class families where you live would even consider that as the size for one decent bedroom?

Besides I can tell you that hotel receptionists generally earn a good deal more than employees at 7/11 stores!

[AsDaRa]

I know from the hotel receptionist from Copa hotel in Boyztown he earned 10.000 two years ago. I must say I am not sure if it was a full time job for him. So you can be right that full time it is a bit more. But it is still an unskilled job. You don't need an education for it. Besides knowing how to read and write of course.

It was his only normal income. Besides being money boy also.

[fountainhall]

Would you regard that as middle class?

[cdnmatt]

But how can you live a middle class live from the average 10.000 baht salary that many Thais receive? At least this is about the most common salary I hear quoted on forums and from Thais (working in 7-11 or working in a shop or being a hotel receptionist, that is about your monthly salary).

You can't even have your own descent room with such a salary, but need to share.

Say you are married and your monthly income is 20.000 baht, can you live a middle class live with your wife and two kids from that in Pattatya? Maybe in the country side. But in a city?

Ok, but flip that around. How well do you think a 7/11 clerk in say Canada or Germany lives? I doubt they're buying a brand new 3bdrm house, have a couple nice vehicles in the driveway, eat filet mignon when they want, and go on a couple nice vacations a year. Instead, I would imagine they're living in a small apartment with one or two other people, eat like garbage, and are struggline to make ends meet if not living off a credit card at the end of every month.

Things like 7/11 clerk and hotel receptionist are shit jobs with shit pay all over the world, and Thailand is no different.

[Yraen]

But it is still an unskilled job. You don't need an education for it.

ADR, I don't know where you get your info because it is quite unreal.

To work as a cashier in Big C one needs a Bachelor degree. (My partner and his best friend - employed as a branch Chief Cashier - were both "retrenched" from different store branches because the company policy suddenly changed to require all staff to have at least a graduate degree.) Much the same applies in most department stores if you want a sales job.

If you still want to be employed after you turn 35, you will need a Masters. In which case you will still only be getting around 20K Baht. Else you will suddenly find yourself doing something quite menial or you become "self employed". You know - street vendor or similar. Go and read some of the employment advertisements in the news papers. They will open your eyes at the systematic prejudice used to hire labour at the lowest pay rate.

If you have some family 'push' these situations probably will not apply.

[BonTong]

I think it's important to remember this thread was about Soi Pratuchai, and by implication go-go bars/boys. For those boys it's not just about money, it's about the whole lifestyle thing including family social issues and Thai culture. Things that cannot be easily measured or understood when viewed from a western perspective.

Being a go-go boy now is more about lifestyle than money. Effectively the bar owns you. Don't turn up for work and you get fined. Don't want to go with a customer - fined. Don't want to do the show -fined. No where to live - don't worry we'll rent you a room. Yes, it's a shit life, so here's a little something to make it easier.... Oh you liked that did you? Well, the next one ain't free. And so the downward spiral begins..... Anyone who thinks that boy in his tighty whities on stage is a completely free agent just there for the money is being extremely naive. Especially in this modern age.

Soi Pratuchai, and other bar zones in Thailand, will continue for sometime yet, but will rely increasingly on foreign guys as they can't find Thai's to do the job, anymore than the construction industry can, or the food processing or fishing industries can. The business will turn increasingly to the dark side as more human traffickers move in.

I do agree with other posters that prostitution is not dead. I'm sure, as others have stated, in Pattaya there are plenty of hard core money boys waiting for you online - at least there they are free agents. And there are definitely lots of boys all over the country who are not hard core but do it discreetly to make extra cash. This will continue as long as the supply and demand economics support it.

[BonTong]

Just spotted this: Junta to purge Pattaya of prostitution

http://prachatai.org/english/node/6942

Well, heard that story before but this line echoes some points already raised about the media in this thread :

"Thai media should not highlight the issue due to the risk of tarnishing the country’s image"

[fountainhall]

Just spotted this: Junta to purge Pattaya of prostitution

http://prachatai.org/english/node/6942

Well, heard that stroy before but this line echoes some points already raised about the media in this thread
It's been touted (sic) before and not happened. Yet combined with the stated intention to turn Pattaya into a more family-oriented destination I have a feeling it will carry more weight this time.

Back to Soi Twilight. There is a report on another Board of a police raid in the Soi last Saturday. They appeared to target at least X-Boys and Fresh Boys go-go bars. The writer subsequently visited Fresh Boys and discovered only about 10 boys working and the show shortened. He believes this is a result of that bar employing a large number of Vietnamese and Cambodians.

There are no posts about the scene in the Soi on following evenings. But it completely bears out what BonTong said about the bars depending increasingly on foreign sex workers. Judging from some chats I have had on the apps, it appears there are also now more foreign guys working in the massage spas.

[fountainhall]

Soi Pratuchai, and other bar zones in Thailand, will continue for sometime yet, but will rely increasingly on foreign guys as they can't find Thai's to do the job, anymore than the construction industry can, or the food processing or fishing industries can. The business will turn increasingly to the dark side as more human traffickers move in.
I've written about Alex Kerr's book "Bangkok Found: Reflections on the City" before and his very perceptive comments not only on Thai culture but also his views on the Thai sex business. Given the comments in this thread, I think it's appropriate to repeat some of his writing. Kerr who admits in the book he is gay has lived in Asia for most of his life - in Bangkok for over 20 years. The book was published in 2010 and is based on his observations and discussions with a wide variety of academics, professionals and ordinary Thais. This is an exceedingly well thought-through and illuminating book, nothing like the cheap novels of the lives of go-go boys.


For whatever reason, Bangkok unquestionably has the most extensive and international gay scene in all of Asia . . . Yet despite the festival atmosphere at Silom, Thai society is hardly the open sexual paradise that many foreigners imagine. This is another of those illusions propagated by the constant surface smile of sanuk . . . In fact there's a strong streak of puritanism running through modern Thai society. Austere Chinese morality, which frowns on sensual indulgence, plays a role, due to the large share of Bangkok's population with Chinese roots. You can also see vestiges of colonial Western values from the 19th century which Thailand took to heart in the process of modernization . . .

Underlying this is a sense of revulsion that society at large expresses against the more obvious signs of Bangkok's booming sex business, It gives the city an unsavoury air, and is a source of embarrassment internationally . . . Ironically, openness to foreigners works against Bangkok in the eyes of the world. Prostitution is just as large a business in Japan as it is in Thailand, maybe even larger, but it bothers foreign visitors and journalists much less, if at all. One doesn't often see an outraged article about the scandalous sexuality of modern Tokyo. This is because most of the sex is not accessible to foreigners; they just don't see it. In fact, much of Thai prostitution is also hidden . . . and the customers are in the vast majority Thai, not foreign.

I have what I call "the Weimar Republic theory" of Bangkok. As dramatised in the movie Cabaret, there was a brief moment of sinful freedom in Berlin during the Weimar Republic (1919 to 1933). It was the era of Kurt Weill's bittersweet music and Christopher Isherwood's novels and stories. By the mid-1930s the Nazis had stamped it out, and eventually all that remained was a legend of "Berlin in the 20s." Those who experienced it spent the rest of their lives telling others of the wild days that were now gone forever.

In time, the more outrageous forms that prostitution takes in Bangkok will disappear. For those things, Bangkok stands far out on the scale of what most cities in the world see as acceptable. I don't believe it will last. Slowly but surely we are seeing a clampdown, and it's a matter of time before the "sinful" Bangkok we see today fades away into legend, just as 1920s Berlin did.
4286

[christianpfc]

Dreamboys staff had a meeting recently at which it was announced that Soi Pratuchai will shut down within 2 years. That's all I know. Cannot provide any details or more info.

Elsewhere http://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/showthread.php?18420-Where-is-everyone/page5 you write:


AsDaRa's suggestions above are, unfortunately, too close to home for me as I experience my 76th year.

1) Some of them must now be dead .... Does not apply to me.... yet
2) Some are now too old to bother posting (it is all less important, have seen it all, have read it all).... Applies to me
3) Some have lost their libido (or most of it, if they still can get an erection), so they have quit visiting Thailand and do not post anymore.....Applies to me. Doctor says I can't travel because of weak lungs. I say, what's the point of travel if I can't do anything once I get there?

All the best to my younger colleagues on SGT. Enjoy while you can.

So I wonder, if you don't bother much about the scene and don't travel any more, how do you know? Second or third hand information? Chinese Whispers?


Cannot provide any details or more info.
Does that mean you don't know more ore that you can't say it here?

As for the manager of Dream Boys retiring, someone else will take over as long as it's profitable. (I haven't been in years and have no plans to go, but judging by the forums, the bar is full. Whereas other bars are largely empty - own experience from nowadays just a few visits per year.)

[AsDaRa]

Would you regard that as middle class?


No. That is why I asked the question because someone else said the middle class is rising, boys not need to prostitute themselves anymore. While I have the idea the average salary is about 10.000-12.000 baht. Hardly middle class standard in my opinion, also not for Thailand. I think the real middle class is still relatively small.

I read also here in this thread that many normal jobs require a bachelor or master degree. How many Thai can afford such an education? There can't be that many with such a degree. Or does the government pay for it? Then the number with such a degree must be rapidly increasing indeed.

[TaoR]

I remember my first trip to Thailand in 1981 when I was 22. As an American I worked in Saudi Arabia where most of the ex pats I worked with were in their 50's...and straight. They used to show off their pictures and brag about their exploits. Oh, and since most of them had been working overseas for decades and or had been soldiers in the Vietnam War they all had tales of how great the sex tourist market used to be in Thailand.

So then I made my first stopover. It was only a one night stay....where I ended up spending the whole night at some massive girl bar/hotel. It obviously was not what I wanted but I figured, "What the hell....something is better than nothing!" After a very wild evening I ended up stopping into a bar for a couple of drinks where I met and became friends with the owner, a black American Vietnam War veteran who stayed in Thailand after his tour of duty and opened a small bar with girl go go dancers. I always stopped in this bar and touched base with him about the bar business in Thailand and he would always wax romantic about the "good ol' days." He eventually made me an offer to take over his bar...but that was in 1985.

So, after that trip I "KNEW" that I wanted to go back to Thailand and I just "KNEW" that someplace in that big sprawling city was a gay mecca...and I was determined to find it!

On my second trip I allocated a week to finding the gay mecca in Bangkok. As my first trip was just a stopover I had booked a hotel by the airport and on the second trip I booked a room at the Montein Hotel as it was much more centrally located. The first night I arrived I pulled out the phone book and called a male escort service and told them what I wanted. That was a flop but at least I did get him to show me the gay mecca! He got a meal and a tip and then I sent him on his way!

So, I offed a boy at Barbiery Coast and we hit if off and we then spent the next four years of regular visits exploring Thailand and also the Bangkok, Chiang Mai, and Phuket gay nightlife. Back then whenever you talked about Pattaya all you heard was "Pattaya no good." or "Pattaya finished."

The point being that every decade there seems to be a real doom and gloom about sex tourism in Thailand. Yet, here it is 2017 or 36 years after my initial visit to Thailand and everyone is still talking doom and gloom. I just cannot help but think, "Same, Same, but different."

Next year I turn 60 and while I have only gained 10 lbs since my first visit to Thailand I am definitely not going for sex. I am going to spend time with the guy I offed over 30 years earlier. After 30 plus years of letters, photos, then emails and now skype (oh and long periods of no communication), its time to meet face to face. Not real sure how that will work out...

He left the bar scene, served his military duty, went to college got married had kids and now grandkids...and while I have talked to everyone in his family I am just "a friend." Or a variety of typical Thai terms for a member of the family....

Sex and Thailand just go hand in hand. Oh, the bars change, the locales change but then again everything in life changes. Everyone focuses on the disruptive nature of the internet and all the dating apps available. Then there is the resentment toward the Chinese tour groups.

Well, the internet has changed sex around the world. You went from being able to view porn for the first time in the mid 90's to cyber sex, to now you have sites like Chaturbate and Omegele, that allow you to be a porn star in your own bedroom. These sites have created a whole generation of guys who now claim to be bisexual, gay, and straight...or now, "not into labels." In Columbia you can actually rent rooms that have the computer the camera and the furnishings to put on quite a show....there is no telling where that leads.

So now 8 to 11 million Chinese head to Thailand in groups every year. What happens when lets say 10% of those Chinese decide to head back to Thailand on their own for their next trip? That will change the whole sex tourism market in a big way and a positive way.

[bobsaigon2]

Good post, TaoR. I enjoy reading the reminiscences of "senior" board members.

[TaoR]

Well, Bob, having read all I want to read about the Tartawan Hotel (I believe I stayed there numerous times back when it was part of the Best Western chain) and now reading about where has everyone gone? I figured I might as well post my memories...it can't hurt! :)

[fountainhall]

I remember my first trip to Thailand in 1981 when I was 22 . . . So now 8 to 11 million Chinese head to Thailand in groups every year. What happens when lets say 10% of those Chinese decide to head back to Thailand on their own for their next trip? That will change the whole sex tourism market in a big way and a positive way.
I beat you to Thailand by 2 years but was a year or two older. Like you I was on a 24-hour stopover en route from Paris to Hong Kong but I had been travelling in the USA and Europe almost non-stop for 3 weeks.

I knew that the gay district was near Suriwong but friends said I had to see the Grand Palace and the Wats. Stupidly I agreed to their idea that I stay at the Royal Hotel at the top of Sanam Luang. After all, I thought, I can see the Palace in the afternoon and it won't take long to get to Suriwong in the evening. Good idea, had it not been for jet lag and Bangkok's traffic! My flight from Paris was one of the bus-stop flights so common in those days - Paris, Dubai, Delhi then Bangkok. Plus I made the stupid error of taking the Thai Air limousine minibus service which proceeded to stop at 7 other hotels (including the Montien which was the area i really wanted to be in) before reaching the Royal 2 1/2 hours later.

I was so exhausted I decided I'd take a quick nap before heading to the Grand Palace. Mistake! That 45 minutes ended up as 4 hours. End of the Palace visit! Still feeling like a zombie, I grabbed an early dinner at the coffee shop and went out on to the street to get a tuk-tuk to Suriwong. No empty tuk-tuk to be seen! Eventually a tout approached me. Did I want a girl? No! A boy? Yes. By this stage I didn't care what this was going to cost. I was not going to waste my entire 24 hours. Miraculously a tuk-tuk appears and we take a long, long drive. I had no idea where we were going. Eventually we ended up in Lang Suan and an old rickety Thai-style house down a short driveway. I protested that i wanted to be in Suriwong (not knowing then that it was nearby) but was told to go in and have just one drink. If no good, the tout would take to Suriwong.

The Stockholm bar was a dump. About a dozen fully clad boys seated around who on my entering were ordered to get up on stage where they just stood and looked at me. No-one else was around - just me. I ordered a beer whereupon the mamasan sidled up to me asking the usual question: "Which one do you like?" To be honest, I liked them all but had no idea of what to do in go-go type bars. I felt somewhat shy and stupid. Sensing my difficulty, she whispered in my ear: "Take 2!" My mind ran amok with visions of paradise down here on earth.

That indeed is what I did. After showering, the boys and I went into a private room upstairs, disrobed and started to get down to it. I was nervous but one of the boys helped me get involved. I was just amazed that this sort of open, fun sex was available and happening to me.

I never returned to Stockholm and had no idea how much longer it survived. On my next visit 9 months later for a proper holiday, I discovered the Apollo go-go bar in Silom Soi 4 and loved it. For some years it was my regular bar. The boys were always such fun! Then I found My Way, Twilight, Barbiery and the new start-up saunas like Volt and Obelisks . . . by then I was the typical sex tourist with the great good fortune of living only 1,000 miles away in Hong Kong.

But that was then. And of course times changeI I do agree with TaoR that millions of gay Chinese will be looking for tourist destinations in the years to come. But he and I have different outcomes. I just do not see the Chinese - like their Singapore, Taiwanese and other Asian counterparts - flocking to go-go bars to off Thai guys. Nor do I see them using the apps to find sex with Thai guys. Some will, but to the vast majority Thailand, if the gay scene does in fact survive, will become a sideshow, a sexual Disneyland where you look and enjoy the experience, but you do not take part. I know too many Chinese and other Asians who already visit Thailand but will never dream of offing a Thai guy. They'll enjoy massages, go to saunas, take in a show if they still exist - but they will not act like the westerners used to in olden days. Same sex drive but very different cultures!

[BonTong]

I've written about Alex Kerr's book "Bangkok Found: Reflections on the City" before and his very perceptive comments not only on Thai culture but also his views on the Thai sex business.

Thank you for sharing. Alex Kerr has it spot on.


I am going to spend time with the guy I offed over 30 years earlier.

I enjoyed reading TaoR's post, but don't share his optimism. I too am in regular contact with some Twilight guys from 15+ years ago. Back when those in the business were friendly, nice guys who recognised what they were doing was not the best job but they were determined to make the most of it and enjoy themselves along the way. I'm not sure the same holds true for the boys of today. As far as nice Thai guys working in the bars, we seem to be reaching the bottom of the barrel. It's now only about money and many are too amped up to care about anything.

What I do see is the younger friends of the boys I knew now pursuing a different business model. They have no interest in short times with an old farang. They go to BKK and seek out encounters in five star places with affluent Singaporean, Malaysian or even Chinese Businessmen who they can milk for the long term.


So now 8 to 11 million Chinese head to Thailand in groups every year. What happens when lets say 10% of those Chinese decide to head back to Thailand on their own for their next trip? That will change the whole sex tourism market in a big way and a positive way.
I doubt it. Many Thais hate Chinese tourists even more than Farangs! I suspect this business will move to Cambodia, the Philippines and to an extent Vietnam.

[TaoR]

Fountainhall, Travel in the days before the internet.... Reading forums I cannot help but think that the internet just might be ruining travel; I mean the searching and guessing and hoping...and then the moment of arrival! :) I remember the Apollo went there nightly. I sometimes wish I had been a "butterfly" but I am not. I just got lucky when I finally stumbled upon Nirvana being Barbiery and while the numerous boys on stage didn't get my attention a waiter eventually did...

We just clicked...

So every night off we went dancing and partying the night away....

One night he got a group of his buddies together (both guys and girls) and we went to Pizza Hut for pizza and beer. So here I am in Bangkok late at night eating with a bunch of Thai sex workers. One girl we had seen earlier shooting ping pong balls across the stage totally naked. Another guy had his wife with him and he also had the boy with him who he performed with during the big cock fuck show....I mean what a collection and they were all sharing their stories with me....deciding which farang nationality was better and what was wrong with the others...

Americans came out on top because they were the easiest to please, took showers, and paid the most because sex made them feel guilty! I just laughed because here I was talking shop talk with a bunch of sex workers.

Another time we had a couple of his friends over to the hotel and we were drinking beer and my guy tells me that one of his friends had never had sex with a Farang and he wanted to get fucked by a Farang....

I just looked at him and said, "Gee so now you are a mamasan at a bar with Farang boys for Thai customers?" I then asked him what the tip would be for a short time?

I don't know what the future holds for sex in Thailand...but I know that the warnings of its demise are clearly not true...someone is going to figure something out...

[fountainhall]

Fountainhall, Travel in the days before the internet.... Reading forums I cannot help but think that the internet just might be ruining travel; I mean the searching and guessing and hoping...and then the moment of arrival! :) I remember the Apollo went there nightly. I sometimes wish I had been a "butterfly" but I am not. I just got lucky when I finally stumbled upon Nirvana being Barbiery and while the numerous boys on stage didn't get my attention a waiter eventually did...

I don't know what the future holds for sex in Thailand...but I know that the warnings of its demise are clearly not true...someone is going to figure something out...
I entirely agree about the internet. It has made sex far easier - no question. But is it more fun now? I think not.

We must have at least seen each other in those Apollo days! I was very much the butterfly in my first years - perhaps too much so. But what gorgeous flowers!

As for the future, I agree there will be plenty of sex. I just believe it will not be the in-your-face commercial variety that we have got used to over the last few decades, In addition to the views of other Asians about Thais, as BonTong points out many Thais will steer clear of many other Asians.

[bobsaigon2]

You won't be seeing go-go bars here in Vietnam during your life time. Gay bars, yes. There are already some, discreet, though I imagine even the quiet ones need to satisfy the Vietnamese BIB every month. I could see gay businesses springing up in Cambodia; Philippines seems a bit far afield unless you're coming from the US and at present the boy bars there have not progressed beyond the total rip off business model. If Soi Twilight is demolished for the sake of a new hotel or office block, perhaps some of the bars would relocate to the Golden Cock/Nature Boys street (never can remember the name of that), but unfortunately it does look like the apps are going to replace the bars. However, no app can replace the excitement of walking into a go-go bar for the first time and seeing 20-30 young Adonises on stage.

[fountainhall]

Philippines seems a bit far afield unless you're coming from the US and at present the boy bars there have not progressed beyond the total rip off business model.
I used to visit Manila regularly in the 1980s when it was a fun place for gays - despite the horrors of the murdering Marcos dictatorship. Coco Banana and 690 Retiro Strip were must visit fun places. Although I have been back on only a few occasions since that decade, the commercial scene certainly seems to have gone far into reverse gear.

That said, Nirish recently posted here that he had a whale of a time in Cebu. The boys were falling off trees to have sex with him and not a peso requested. But that is not a commercial sex scene like the topic of this thread.

[TaoR]

I really don't know what the future holds for sex in Thailand...

I do know that I am going back next year and basically going to "finishing" up my visit to Japan (I have been twice before but both times my trips were cut short by business demands). I am going to visit Vietnam, Cambodia, and China which are places I could not experience the first time I was traveling through Asia. Then I will re visit Thailand and the Philippines...

I have changed and the places I am visiting have changed. There is no more staying up all night partying while also have sex three times a day in my future. I also once and for all figure out for myself why I always favored Thailand over the Philippines. I mean I had some really great sex with Filipinos (but that was mostly with guys I was friends with, straight guys, who I worked with in Saudi Arabia (lots of stories there). But the ones at the bars were always really hot looking in the bar and seemed so willing until you got down to business....disappointing is the word...

It just never made sense....but that I would assume would be a whole different thread. Maybe it all has changed now.

Never know for sure unless you go and find out for yourself.

I cannot expect to travel through some time machine and expect Thailand to be as I remembered because in all honesty the concept of "sex" has changed so much even in the United States and it has to have changed in Thailand too...

Not real sure what the business model would be...I mean when the kid who's family lives down the street has a "room" on Chaturbate and his videos pop up on various porn sites I can't help but shake my head in disbelief when he tells me he is not in it for the money but loves the performing and friends he makes! I cannot understand the attraction of having sex with other people via video cameras....

[fountainhall]

I have changed and the places I am visiting have changed
You have hit the nail on the head - at least as far as those in our age range are concerned - "I have changed". We all change over time. I could no more be the sort of sex tourist that I once was than turn into a money boy! I do hanker after the old days in Thailand because they were so exciting and such fun. Whilst I still enjoy seeing cute young Thai guys, I now prefer their company over a drink or two. Besides, I have had the luxury and enormous privilege of spending most of my career in this exciting part of the world. I cannot imagine what life would have been like without being exposed early on to the cultures and societies of so many fascinating countries at a time they were each emerging in their own ways from the rigours of disastrous wars.

Unlike you, I have been based exclusively in various Asian countries which I have got to know well, including sexually. Like you, I have travelled the world for business very regularly but I have rarely had sex anywhere other than in Asia. Only in Sydney did have I had great times - and that's because I was always with Asians! I guess I am just the typical rice-queen!

As regular posters will know, my other Asian favourites - countries as well as their young men - are Japan and Taiwan. I discovered Japan within a few years of arriving in Asia and my first true love here was Japanese. Having since then lived there, returning many times has been a special joy. More recently I feel especially at home in Taiwan to the point where I would happily move to retire in Taipei if I had the funds to do so.

So I now have no personal interest in what happens to Soi Twilight. I am just thrilled I was around when it was starting up and during its long heyday. It sure was fun!

[AsDaRa]

Very nice thread. Love reading about the old days, way before my time.

Also give some more info please. What was the off fee in 1980, what the short time price in 1980?

How did you find out about Thailand as sex paradise without Internet? You happened to cross a newspaper article and reading it thought: "I want to go there"? Now it is common knowledge, but was it already common knowledge in 1972, 1980, 1990?

What more has changed? Go go bars operated the same way as they do now? Immediately being asked for a drink? Lot of pressure to choose boy? Or was it more relaxed? And since in the past more farangs, was there more competition? Did you miss the oppertunity sometimes to off the boy you wanted for a couple of days in a row because you were too late for him?

Please more detail, certainly where the differences are compared to now. Thanks in advance.

[fountainhall]

I'll try and provide some answers.

I can't recall what i paid those two boys who entertained me on my Stockholm visit. It was all so new, I had such a great time and no doubt I overtipped. Thereafter from my discovery of Apollo and Twilight (Apollo was situated in Silom Soi 4 above where Sphinx is now) I think I paid Bt. 500 for a short-time. The Baht was then fixed at US$1 = Bt. 25 (it remained at that fixed rate till July 1997) and so the equivalent was $20. Plus a Bt. 500 note was so much easier to take out than 4 x Bt. 100 notes. I remember paying the same in the early 1990s. I cannot recall what the off fee was. In Apollo if you paid Bt. 100 or so to use the short-time room upstairs, I don't seem to remember any off fee. I am sure TaoR will have a more accurate memory.

What I do remember was the catwalk that snaked through the middle of the small bar and the boys stripping completely naked around 9:00pm - as they did in Twilight. All seemed to have fun and happily welcomed everyone who came into the bar. I do remember the Apollo barman, a student named Ruangsan who I was infatuated with for ages and frequently just sat at the bar to chat with him, but he was not offable - at least I never succeeded! LOL

I knew absolutely noting about Thailand and Bangkok's sex scene until I moved to Hong Kong. In fact, really strange though this will seem, when I was offered the job in Hong Kong, I did not even know where Hong Kong was! My knowledge of the geography and history of Asia was minuscule. Then having landed in Hong Kong and got my first copy of the Spartacus guide, I realised Bangkok was a place I had to visit.

I come from Britain. When I was a student and just starting to work, there was never any talk whatever about Thailand with or without sexual references. Asia was too far away. Of course we had heard about the Vietnam War but again that blighted country seemed planets away! With the wages paid at that time, we could never consider going there.

The atmosphere in the bars was certainly far more relaxed than today. The mamasans might come up and ask what you'd like to drink, but it was polite and with little pressure. Similarly there was no pressure to have a second drink, but the prices were so low I usually had at least 2 or 3 drinks as well as buying 1 or 2 for a few of the boys. Same with choosing a boy. No pressure. Twilight was run by two older transvestites who manned the bar and might suggest this boy or that one. But little more.

You are wrong in thinking there were more farang at that time. There were less. As has been mentioned before, in Bangkok's go-go bars there were usually more Thais than westerners. Attendance during weekdays was pretty slim, but packed at week-ends. Twilight had a little older guy who would get more and more seats as the number of customers kept increasing!

As for offing a boy two nights running, I never went two nights running. On the few occasions I really wanted to meet a guy, I would tell the mamasan when I would next be in the bar and she would ensure my chosen companion was there for me.

[AsDaRa]

Thank you. Love reading this. Best thread in ages

[bobsaigon2]

This is a late reply to Christian:

So I wonder, if you don't bother much about the scene and don't travel any more, how do you know? Second or third hand information? Chinese Whispers?

It is only during this past year that I had to end my travels to Bangkok. I maintain contacts in Soi Twilight so I am up to date.


Cannot provide any details or more info. Does that mean you don't know more or that you can't say it here?

I cannot say more because I don't know more. The Dreamboys staff member who told me did not provide details because the owner of Dreamboys did not say anything beyond "Soi Twilight closing in two years".

[TaoR]

To really understand the bar scene of Thailand in the 1980's you have to understand what it was like to grow up gay in the 1970's. Yes, you can read about the gay scene in New York and London but very few of us lived in New York or London.

Every gay bar I visited while in college was a very dark, dirty, dreary place. Forget the rainbow flag and the gay pride....sullen would be a much more apt term.

Then you find yourself in Bangkok....Barbiery and Apollo were always packed. Mostly Asians as Fountainhall stated. It was a small scene but a scene full of young guys, happy guys. Drink prices were cheap and you always found yourself buying drinks for others. Which in turn only added to the party atmosphere.

It was a very polite non aggressive scene. The mamasan/captain at Barbiery was quite the gentlemen and he nurtured and protected "his boys." I remember the off fee was 300 Baht.

I remember I tipped my guy 1500 Baht the first night which was long term. He was so nervous when we left Barbiery that I took him out to eat and then we walked around talking and hit up a couple of other bars before heading to the hotel room...he was definitely new to all of this

There was absolutely no discussion of tip amount and it truly was whatever I wanted to pay.

I remember my guy had a cousin who also worked at Barbiery and he was an absolute stunning young man. He was so high in demand that he was pre booked a week in advance. Forget comparing sex work to entry level construction work because this young man was offed every night sometimes two or three times a night.

I seriously doubt the sex trade is that well paying nowadays.

[fountainhall]

I think you have to remember also that by the start of the 1980s the gay liberation movement in the west was still very young. I thought Hong Kong might be more open - it wasn't. Hong Kong still had the old Victorian law against sodomy and so being gay was technically illegal. Not that that stopped lots of guys having gay relationships. But all behind closed doors. There was just one gay bar on Hong Kong Island named Dateline. To get to it, you had to go down a long flight os steps. This was always brightly lit. The reason? A police unit had rented an apartment opposite and photographed everyone who left the bar. Incidentally, that law still exists in Singapore and Malaysia!

So Bangkok - and to a certain extent Manila - were oases of sexual freedom. Everyone could relax, shake of all restrictions and just have a good time. Although I enjoyed both Apollo and Twilight, Barbiery was certainly the jewel in Bangkok's go-go bar crown. I'm not sure when it opened but I vividly recall my first visit with friends around 1985. It was located directly across Suriwong from Soi Twilight. On the ground floor was a bar with about 6 stools. To get to the go-go bar, you had to go through that ground floor bar, up the stairs at the end and then go through a door on the right.

Barbiery was not a large bar, somewhere between Twilight and Apollo in size. in the middle were two end-to-end small stages. On the wall ahead and the one to the left were banquettes. On the right was the quite small bar area and then another larger space (as though a wall had been taken down) where the boys had a gym and got ready before going on stage, At the weekends, many dozens of single seats would be crammed in so it was sometimes difficult to move. I guess there must have been about 100 boys, in those early years mostly twinks. The main difference between then and now as mentioned earlier, was the sense of fun that permeated all the proceedings. The boys were having fun, the audience had a great time and even the barmen smiled! The shows were far more interesting than nowadays, always ending with the most amazing sexual acrobatics on ropes, swings, ladders etc. Some bars still have some of that, but none is on the same level as the old Barbiery.

Boys were being offed the whole time, presumably one reason for there being so many! After a few years, the management added some bigger, slightly older guys but the bar retained its popularity right through the 1990s. Then, for some inexplicable reason - either because the building owner would not renew the lease or the management thought moving to a larger space would generate more profits - it closed on Suriwong and over to the 3rd floor of a new building across from Nature Boys (down the soi from the Mango Tree restaurant and near The Golden Cock bar). This was the start of the end. The new location was way too big, had none of the atmosphere of the old Barbiery, the spark had gone out of the boys - no-one seemed to care any more. I think it was less than two years before it died.

I often wonder if Barbiery had stayed in its old location and if Twilight had not totally changed its format under its new renovated title of Hotmale, would they still have attracted good crowds in the new century? A moot point since we'll never know the answer. Also it was around this time that the Thaksin government started its first Social Order Campaign with the aim of curtailing the 'entertainment' industry. Whenever the gay go-go bar phenomenon finally dies, I expect most will look back at this time as the beginning of the end.

[BonTong]

I think the real middle class is still relatively small.
Was thinking some more about this. Perhaps one of the best measures of affluence is the number of vehicles on the road, and the numbers of new car dealerships that have sprung up.

Fifteen years ago you could get anywhere in Chiang Mai in 10-15 minutes or so. These days you are sometimes talking that long to do 100 metres at peak times. Although vehicle purchases are largely made on credit, the enormous increase in numbers is a clear indicaor that the average man in the streets has more disposable income. Same out in the villages, 15 years ago you saw very few vehicles. Now every second or third house has a brand new pickup outside (at least in Northern Thailand).

[AsDaRa]

Was thinking some more about this. Perhaps one of the best measures of affluence is the number of vehicles on the road, and the numbers of new car dealerships that have sprung up.

Fifteen years ago you could get anywhere in Chiang Mai in 10-15 minutes or so. These days you are sometimes talking that long to do 100 metres at peak times. Although vehicle purchases are largely made on credit, the enormous increase in numbers is a clear indicaor that the average man in the streets has more disposable income. Same out in the villages, 15 years ago you saw very few vehicles. Now every second or third house has a brand new pickup outside (at least in Northern Thailand).

Good point. But then the average income in Thailand can not be 12.000 baht. It must be higher. What do you think the average household income is for a family which owns a car?

[werner]

Fountainhall,
Thanks for your comments about Barbiery, which was the first Thai go-go bar that I visited [in December 1989].

In its heyday in the late 1980s and early 1990s, Barbiery was a great bar with many very attractive guys, both hot muscular types and twinks. It sometimes had about 50 or 60 guys available. Many were so attractive that it was hard to make a choice.

The customers were gay men, although heterosexual couples occasionally came to gawk at the show -- and at the gays.

Isn't the present owner of Dream Boys the former owner of Barbiery? I wish he would run a bar similar to Barbiery. Perhaps he now has to depend on the Chinese tourists to make a profit....

[fountainhall]

Isn't the present owner of Dreamboys a German? I don't recall a German being around Barbiery - but I was always more interested in what was going on on stage than in who might be running it.

[bobsaigon2]

Once in a while I stop by GBT. I resigned from the forum long ago, so I can't communicate with anyone over there. I was surprised to see that my post (#25 above), was called "insightful" and used to start a new thread on GBT. No mention is made of the original writer. Not important. Not a copyright matter. Just annoying.

[Dalewood]

I was watching a man on TV last night who I presume to be the Prime Minister. He mentioned a special program for Thais earning under B40,000/annum. If that figure is correct, (it was translated into English) I would say that the supply of young men will be forthcoming for a while yet.

I examined the callouses on my 29-year-old from last night's hands and he said working at the bar was just too much easier.

[Dalewood]

Fountainhall,
Thanks for your comments about Barbiery, which was the first Thai go-go bar that I visited [in December 1989].

In its heyday in the late 1980s and early 1990s, Barbiery was a great bar with many very attractive guys, both hot muscular types and twinks. It sometimes had about 50 or 60 guys available. Many were so attractive that it was hard to make a choice.

The customers were gay men, although heterosexual couples occasionally came to gawk at the show -- and at the gays.

Isn't the present owner of Dream Boys the former owner of Barbiery? I wish he would run a bar similar to Barbiery. Perhaps he now has to depend on the Chinese tourists to make a profit....

That was the first go-go bar that I entered. I had to catch my breath. The were boys there for all tastes.

[fountainhall]

I was surprised to see that my post (#25 above), was called "insightful" and used to start a new thread on GBT. No mention is made of the original writer. Not important. Not a copyright matter. Just annoying.
Quite agree. It's purely a matter of courtesy which that poster has not shown. It's also usual to post a link which is a courtesy to the owner of the other site. One of my long posts has been copied on to gaythailand but with a proper link and credit.

[colmx]

Isn't the present owner of Dreamboys a German? I don't recall a German being around Barbiery - but I was always more interested in what was going on on stage than in who might be running it.

On my earliest trips to bkk there was a bar called "Dreamboys Barbiery" in the location that FH describes for the original Barbiery, it was owned by the same people as Boys Bangkok and Blue Star Sexy Circus

All 3 bars eventually merged into the Blue star premises that is now Boys Bkk/Dreamboys

[werner]

Who is the present owner/manager of Dreamboys [in Bangkok]?

Some forum member have referred to the German owner doing this or that. Why can't he create a great go-go bar similar to that of Dreamboys Barbiery, which many people, including myself, remember fondly. Has he become too dependent on the Chinese tourists that come to gawk at the shows?

Does this owner/manager ever interact with customers? I am not sure that I have ever seen him there, although I have sometimes seen a short Caucasian behind the bar area. Have forum members ever talked much with him? [I could even taught with him in perfect German, albeit with a Swiss accent.]

In the past, the owners of several of the best gay venues interacted and socialized with customers, and sought their comments. Such was true of:
(1) the elegant transgender who ran [owner?] Adam and Eve in Pattaya about 25 years ago. [Is that the name of the huge message place that sometimes had almost 100 handsome guys...] She would come around, introduce herself, chat, and even offered me free drinks....

(2) the owner of Matsuda Super Lex in Bangkok [He spoke limited English, but was always friendly and welcoming.]

(3) the owner of Coffee Boy in Chiangmai. [He went out of his way to make guests feel welcome. I once stayed there several days because he was so nice, even though the inn/bar was not conveniently located..]

[fountainhall]

Some forum member have referred to the German owner doing this or that. Why can't he create a great go-go bar similar to that of Dreamboys Barbiery, which many people, including myself, remember fondly. Has he become too dependent on the Chinese tourists that come to gawk at the shows?
Those of us that recall the "good old days" have to remember that times, Thai society, economics, tourism and so much else has changed. I'd love to see another Barbiery-type gogo bar. But it just won't happen. It was a venue of its time and for its time. That time is over.

[bobsaigon2]

I recall when Barbiery occupied several floors of a building near Golden Cock. There was even a lift to the third floor entertainment area. Extremely busy, crowded. To this day I remember stepping outside the bar area into the landing to get the lift, and came across two cute young boys totally naked as they applied body paint on each other. If only I could travel back to those days, and stay there, never aging. My only hope now is for a fun filled re-incarnation. There will be changes to the gay scene in Thailand. Inescapable. They've already started. And probably not much to the liking of the 60+ group.

[fountainhall]

The building was opposite Nature Boys and about 20 meters down the soi from Golden Cock. I can't have gone there until a year or so after the move because I don't recall it ever being crowded. Maybe that's because we never visited on a Friday or Saturday, but on Sundays it felt too big and empty. Sadly I also felt the ambience of the old premises was totally missing. The stage being at one end rather than in the centre certainly didn't help because those sitting at the bar end were quite far away. I also had the impression the average age of the boys by that stage had risen quite a bit.

I suppose the location must have seemed an obvious move given there were several other well-known bars around that area. But I don't think it lasted there more than three years there, if not less. By its last year it had completely lost all of its former glory. I seem to recall that Super Lek was just as big but its stage jutted out much more into the audience and there was more seating around the sides making it feel more intimate. But it too eventually died. I guess that many of the punters used to being in or very close to Soi Twilight probably couldn't be bothered with the short trek down to the new location. And it was lousy for short-term tourists who may not have had much clue how to get there. Besides there were by then more go-go bars in Twilight itself.

Had it stayed in its old location or moved into Soi Twilight, I wonder if it would have lasted longer? My hunch is that it would.

[christianpfc]

Does this owner/manager ever interact with customers? I am not sure that I have ever seen him there, although I have sometimes seen a short Caucasian behind the bar area. Have forum members ever talked much with him?
When I walk past, I sometimes see a Caucasian (always the same) sitting outside IN FRONT of the venue. I haven't talked to him, I only know from the forums that he is German and the manager.


The building was opposite Nature Boys and about 20 meters down the soi from Golden Cock.
A gogo bar "Night Boys" was there and closed around 2012, now it's a Chinese/Korean/Japanese (?) restaurant.

[latintopxxx]

Old portly german sitting outside is the owner....his BF used to be a gogo but now only occasionally does strip shows starting off in a cop uniform....most incredible body. He alsoowns (part owns ?!) dj station on soi 2.

[frequent]

Why can't he create a great go-go bar similar to that of Dreamboys Barbiery, which many people, including myself, remember fondly.Perhaps he's decided he doesn't have the time or the inclination or even - heaven forbid - he's made the assessment that such a business model is no longer viable

Has he become too dependent on the Chinese tourists that come to gawk at the shows?That's a value judgement on your part. You'll recall the myth of the goose that laid the golden egg

In the past, the owners of several of the best gay venues interacted and socialized with customers, and sought their commentsAnother value judgement. If the owner doesn't socialize and seek the comments from his customers his is not one of the best gay venues? Some of the best bar owners I've ever known didn't socialize with their customers, many of whom were either big-noting themselves ("I know the owner") or expecting free drinks. The character who spends a week or two in Thailand every year and is an instant expert on how bars should be run is a form of bar-room bore that owners of the best venues, gay or otherwise, sensibly avoid

[fountainhall]

I'm curious. Apart from Soi Twilight, I always understood that soi's real name is Duangthawee. But it's now named Pratuchai. Anyone know why?

[frequent]

I'm curious. Apart from Soi Twilight, I always understood that soi's real name is Duangthawee. But it's now named Pratuchai. Anyone know why?
There's a Duangthawee Plaza in/near the soi that has, like Twilight lent the soi one of its names but its proper name is Pratuchai - as a careful study via Google on both those names will readily show

[scottish-guy]

That explanation is fucking incomprehensible.

Just saying like.

[fountainhall]

Love reading about the old days, way before my time . . . please more detail
Although the thread is about Soi Twilight/Duangthawee/Pratuchai (looking back, for years it was called Duangthawee - only recently has it been changed to Pratuchai and I still don't know the reason!) Bangkok also had gay bars elsewhere. In Patpong 2 there used to be a host bar on the upper level. I wonder if anyone else remembers it. Was that Tiffany's? And then for a long time Silom Soi 4 had the famous Rome Club, Bangkok's best mixed disco with hordes of gay guys at the week-ends. For whatever reason, the owner decided that he wanted the gays out and thereafter made it a straight club. It died pretty soon after that to be replaced by Roxy. But it could never find the right formula and it too died.

My Way has been mentioned in other threads - a small bar with twinks just off Rama 4 between Silom and Suriwong. I don't remember there being shows but I reckon the boys were some of the best dancers in the gay go-go bars at that time. Along Sukhumvit off Soi 10 there was and, I believe, still remains Inter Mustache House. Most farang never got above the ground floor where 3 or 4 Thai guys would gyrate as though dancing. The real go-go bar was upstairs and was mostly patronised by Thais. Further along I was 3 or 4 times at another very small host bar just across from one of the entrances to the Ambassador Hotel car park, but I have no recollection of the name.

[AsDaRa]

These street names in Thailand, I have the idea most names are just by common usage and not assigned to that street by a government body.

I think even many streets have no formal names. Because there hardly are any street name signs visible in Thailand.
I often wondered how the mail man could deliver his mail before Google maps and smart phones. Many streets appear not to have visible names.

Is there a street name sign at one of the 2 entrances of Soi Twilight?

Someone says above the street name was changed to Soi Pratuchai from Soi Duangthawee. Was this a name change initiated by a government body?

[fountainhall]

These street names in Thailand, I have the idea most names are just by common usage and not assigned to that street by a government body.
It's generally not a complicated system. Main roads have formal names - like Silom, Sathorn, Wittayu and Rama 4. Smaller streets going off these roads are usually preceded by the major road name with Soi added. Those on one side of the road start at Soi 2 and go up in even numbers. So Silom Soi 4 is where Balcony and Telephone are located. On the opposite side, they go up in odd numbers.

The Bangkok Metropolitan Administration, like every city authority, has the duty of naming roads/streets/sois. It has even approved Soi Goethe as the name for the Soi off Sathorn Soi 1 where the Goethe Institut is located. And on the other side of that soi, Soi Nantha has now been named Soi Nantha/Mozart as it is close to the Austrian Embassy.

Inevitably some sois get informal names - like Soi Twilight. Originally that was called Soi Duangthawee in gay guides - officially or unofficially I don't know. But it is now known as Pratuchai which may indeed have been its original name.

At least you can be grateful you are not living in Japan where city locations take non-Japanese a lot of time to understand. How would you like to find the popular sauna 24 Kaikan in Shinjuku using this as the address - 2-13-1 Shinjuku Ni-chome, Tokyo? To Japanese, it is extremely logical, For a foreigner, if you know the system you get right to it. Don't know the system and most likely you can go round in circles before giving up!

[a447]

City locations also take Japanese along time to find, not just foreigners.

Addresses in Japan can only get you in the general vicinity of your destination. You then have to wander around looking.

Each block - chome -is numbered, but that doesn't mean that 2 chome is necessarily next to 3 chome. It could join onto 7 chome!

If you are looking for a home address you need to know that houses are numbered by the order in which they are built. Two houses built at the same time will have the same number! The postman has to learn where everyone in the area lives. Consequently, they are great at reporting to the authorities who lives where and who has recently moved in or out of the area. Free spies!

I've never had a problem with streets in Thailand not having names. My problem is that they are often written in Thai.

All the boys in the bars around Soi Tawan know the name Soi Twilight. But if you asked a Thai who is not in the business, I guess they wouldn't have a clue.

The sign for My Way disappeared only recently. I often saw it as I walked up Rama IV and was tempted to see if it was still open. But the soi looked very run down so I never bothered.

[AsDaRa]

Thanks a lot for this information.
Still it is strange there are so few street name signs. Because if you need soi 9 it will help if you somewhere see a sign like "soi 3", then you can count from there. Else you are at a loss without a map or without asking.

[fountainhall]

Still it is strange there are so few street name signs. Because if you need soi 9 it will help if you somewhere see a sign like "soi 3", then you can count from there. Else you are at a loss without a map or without asking.
I wonder if you have been looking hard enough. I have rarely been unable to find a soi. If for some reason the one I want is not numbered, then the one before or the one after almost certainly is. But there are always some sois that don't fit in to the formula.

I don't totally agree with a447 about Japanese addresses, but then I only lived in Tokyo where, with a bilingual map, finding addresses was not complicated especially if apartment blocks or office blocks had specific names. One time I remember being confused was trying to find the Treffpunkt hattenba (a small sauna-like establishment). I had to check the telephone poles to get the building number!

[frequent]

Thanks a lot for this information.
Still it is strange there are so few street name signs. Because if you need soi 9 it will help if you somewhere see a sign like "soi 3", then you can count from there. Else you are at a loss without a map or without asking.

Yes, those street signs with numbers are so damn hard to find aren't they

4312

[AsDaRa]

I will pay very good attention next time.
Also if I see a sign at the entrances of Soi Twilight

[bkkguy]

Inevitably some sois get informal names - like Soi Twilight. Originally that was called Soi Duangthawee in gay guides - officially or unofficially I don't know. But it is now known as Pratuchai which may indeed have been its original name.

I don't know what it was originally called before it became known colloquially as Soi Twilight but long after Hotmale took over the Twilight location there was a push to have the first half of the soi (entering from Surawong) known as Duangthawee Plaza because the buildings on one side of the first half of the soi are owned by the Duang family and on the other side by the Thawee family - why should the Patpong family have all the name recognition after all, though as I understand it the Patpong family own and built the two "roads" on their property but Soi Twilight is a public soi and the land title along the soi belongs to the CPB

bkkguy

[fountainhall]

Fascinating! I wonder if you know who owns Silom Soi 4? I was once having drinks in Balcony when a Mercedes slowly crept along the soi and the gate at the end opened for it. I was told that the soi's owners still live in the mansion behind the gates, but I have no idea if that is true.

[AsDaRa]

the land title along the soi belongs to the CPB

bkkguy

CPB = ?

(I want to ask - but I will not ask - how you know all this, how you know who owns these lots and streets. Did you hack the Thailand land registry?)

[fountainhall]

CPB = Crown Property Bureau

When you live in Bangkok over a period of years, as with any city you pick up a vast local knowledge that few tourists would even think about checking on.

[werner]

Interesting discussion.

I would like to thank forum members who responded to my comments with their insights...

Perhaps we oldies should just remember the good times, accept the changes, and retire peacefully in Europe. But even the gay scenes in Berlin and Amsterdam have changed dramatically....

[fountainhall]

Perhaps we oldies should just remember the good times, accept the changes, and retire peacefully in Europe
I did think of that briefly about 3 years ago. I even went back to the UK for most of November - lousy time for weather but that was the idea. I ended up thinking that after 35 years in Asia I could perhaps think about moving back. But after a week back in Bangkok, I realised I couldn't! My soul would die!

[Patanawet]

Although the thread is about Soi Twilight/Duangthawee/Pratuchai (looking back, for years it was called Duangthawee - only recently has it been changed to Pratuchai and I still don't know the reason!)

Yes fountainhall. Who on earth refers to soi Duangthawee?
It has been known forever as soi Twilight after the infamous bar on the left hand corner.
Even though it is known as soi Twilight,that bar is long gone and is now Hotmale.

[fountainhall]

Yes fountainhall. Who on earth refers to soi Duangthawee?
It has been known forever as soi Twilight after the infamous bar on the left hand corner.
Even though it is known as soi Twilight,that bar is long gone and is now Hotmale.
I am perfectly well aware of that as per my previous posts and dozens of visits to the old Twilight Bar (far more fun than its replacement IMO). But its official name was Duangthawee and now it is Pratuchai. Hence my question.

[christianpfc]

Searching in Thai, google gives more hits for ซอยประตูชัย (Soi Pratuchai) than for ดวงทวีพลาซ่า (Duangthawee Plaza). Checking the entrance gate on google maps street view Sep 2011, there is written ดวงทวีพลาซ่า (Duangthawee Plaza) among advertising for the bars. The Soi is not on google maps, nor in any map of Bangkok I have. There is no road sign at either entrance.

[AsDaRa]

The Soi is not on google maps, nor in any map of Bangkok I have. There is no road sign at either entrance.

This certainly is strange. Then it must be indeed a private road. But still, a map should map every street that is publicly accessible. How weird map makers just ignore it after so many years. I wonder what the reason is.

[MiniMee]

But its official name was Duangthawee and now it is Pratuchai. Hence my question.

You are confused Khun fountainhall and your repeated displays of confusion are confusing others.

The name of the Soi is Pratuchai and it is not new. Duangthawee (as BKKguy has noted above) is the name given to the buildings and the paved area between them that line the Soi. Duangthawee Plaza.

Just google the address of Dream Boys or Dicks Cafe and you will find that they are consistently listed as:

38/3-6 Duangthawee Plaza, Soi Pratuchai, Suriwongse Road, Bangrak
and
894/7-8 Duangthawee Plaza, Soi Pratuchai, Suriwongse Road, Bangrak
respectively.

Of course, there are incorrect variations on the www posted by similarly confused individuals.

But now I will add a confusion of my own. Christianpfc will be interested in this: Open up Hornet and zoom into the location of Dream Boys and Dicks and you will see the small street labeled as Soi Decho!

That is not to be confused with Decho Road which runs between Suriwongse and Silom, much further west (west of Pullman G Hotel) of course.....

[fountainhall]

Thanks MiniMee. But many guides some years ago only mentioned the Duangthawee part and never Pratuchai. Here are a Lonely Planet and a Bangkok Gay Guide entries from the early 2000s -


Duangthawee Plaza
Red-light district in Riverside, Silom & Lumphini
This strip of male-only go-go bars is the gay equivalent of nearby Th Patpong. Expect tacky sex shows by bored-looking men.

More gay places at Duangthawee Plaza
From Suriwong Road leads a small Soi (lane) to a lot more gay places like . . .
This soi is marked by kind of a wooden entrance gaye opposite where Taniya Road ends.
More resent listings certainly include Pratuchai. So I will now consign Duangthawee to posting history!

[Jellybean]

What’s in a name, eh?

Before I started reading or posting on this forum, I had never heard or seen the soi referred to as Soi Twilight. It is difficult for me to imagine now, but many years ago when I used to travel up to Bangkok from Hua Hin, to spend a few nights going to the go-go bars, I always seemed to have trouble locating the soi. I therefore asked some of the vendors at, or near, the entrance to the soi to let me know its name. I was told it is called, soi bprà-dtuu chai. I was then able to quote it when getting a taxi directly to the soi, or if I had found myself lost and unable to locate the bars, I could ask someone for help.

So, when I began posting trip reports, go-go bar or massage parlour reviews relating to ‘Soi Twilight’, I have more often than not referred to this soi as the following: "soi bprà-dtuu chai (AKA Soi Twilight)" or shortened to, "‘Soi Twilight’" depending on the context of my report and to indicate this was not its correct name, mainly for the benefit of new readers who had yet to visit the soi.

I even kept a few business cards from some of the bars and massage joints and they refer to it as follows:

Future Boys
soi pratoochai surawong Rd

X Size Club
Soi Pratuchai Surawong Rd

Bonny Massage
Soi Pratuchai (Boytown), Surawong Rd

S go go boys
Soi Pratuchai Surawong Rd.,

The Boys Bangkok
Duangthawee Plaza Bang Rak Bangkok

Dick’s Café Bangkok
Duangthawee Plaza, Soi Pratoochai

[AsDaRa]

So if this soi has a name for many years, if taxi drivers know how to find it, why does google maps not show this soi?

[bobsaigon2]

Never mind. By the time posters complete the interrogation of each other regarding the name of this soi, the soi will have become a hotel or office block and the casual observer will no longer be able to discern where the soi once existed.

[Patanawet]

More resent listings certainly include Pratuchai. So I will now consign Duangthawee to posting history!

Well done fountainhall but why not revert even further and call it Soi Twilight as most locals do?

[fountainhall]

. . . why not revert even further and call it Soi Twilight as most locals do?Perhaps if you had actually been reading the thread, you would have known that this is precisely what I have done for decades!! It was merely a surprise to hear it mentioned as Pratuchai - hence the recent dialogue. My post #5 on page 1 surely could not have been clearer?


The announcement is interesting because at least two of the Boards have had recent threads re how Soi Twlight (as it is often called after the original Twilight gogo bar) can continue given the substantial reduction of western visitors looking to off boys and the increase in Chinese and other Asians only interested in just one drink and seeing the shows . . . Soi Twilight's decline comes as Silom Soi 4 thrives.

[frequent]

So if this soi has a name for many years, if taxi drivers know how to find it, why does google maps not show this soi?

Indeed. And why does Google Maps show Silom 5 as a dead end when it is not? The Google maps satellite view does show that you can walk from Surawong through to Rama 4 via an unnamed laneway, and it even shows some of the businesses along the way such as Dick's Cafe. Possibly Google has it classified as an alley (trok) rather than a side street (soi). As for taxi drivers knowing the location of brothels - 'nuff said.

[fountainhall]

I assume there must be different versions of google maps. Mine clearly shows the soi and even more establishments - but not Dick's nor Classic Boys and Hotmale. It also calls the soi Decho!!!

4313

[frequent]

I assume there must be different versions of google maps.
I'm using the Web version https://www.google.co.th/maps?hl=en

[a447]

Fountainhall, that map is obviously well out of date.

[AsDaRa]

The web version and the iOS version of Google Maps doesn't have it. Mr. Fountainhall makes a mistake. He uses Apple maps version.

[fountainhall]

Fountainhall, that map is obviously well out of date.
Being up to date was not the point of the exercise. Showing Soi Twilight and its location on a map was! I frankly defy anyone to find an up to date map of Soi Twilight. And I have no idea what maps my computer displays, but I do work on a Mac. Obviously its maps appear to be superior to those offered by google even though it is struggling with names! :D:D

[bobsaigon2]

I should have entitled this thread "Soi Twilight" or "Boi Soi" or anything except Soi Pratuchai. I never expected Pratuchai to generate such turmoil, such hand-wringing, such angst. Apparently I'm not the only one with too much free time on his hands.

[loke]

As long as tourists keeps coming to Bangkok , there will always be a future for gogo clubs and gay bars. Maybe not this soi , the Thais knows where to go to have fun and that's not in the SIlom area .

[frequent]

As long as tourists keeps coming to Bangkok , there will always be a future for gogo clubs and gay bars. Maybe not this soi , the Thais knows where to go to have fun and that's not in the SIlom area .

So you're saying that there will be gogo bars because the Thais know where to go to have fun, but they won't be in the main tourist area even though the bars will exists "as long as tourists keep coming to Bangkok"??

[justaguy]

Oh well, Thai gays don't normally go to Soi Twilight anyway. Neither am I, 350 baht for a beer is way to much for me. I can see those dicks for free elsewhere :D

[fountainhall]

350 baht for a beer is way to much for me. I can see those dicks for free elsewhere :D
Agreed, but isn't Bt. 350 pretty low for that soi now? I paid Bt. 400 at Dreamboys about a year ago. It may have been a special night, but didn't feel like it! The place was packed, though.

[Patanawet]

Perhaps if you had actually been reading the thread,

My apaologies fountainhall, I must have missed that message.

[fountainhall]

As long as tourists keeps coming to Bangkok , there will always be a future for gogo clubs and gay bars. Maybe not this soi , the Thais knows where to go to have fun and that's not in the SIlom area .
Bit of a non-sequitur there. So as long as there are tourists, there will be go-go bars. That's not what some recent posters think, by the way. However, you then suggest maybe not in Soi Twilight but elsewhere where Thais go to have fun. Odd, given that more than one poster has pointed out that where Thais go to have fun is never known to or even open to farang. So what does the future of go-go bars have to do with tourists?

During your absence you no doubt did not read the post made by arsenal just 2 days ago on The Changes in Bangkok's Go-Go Bars thread -


There are places that only cater for Thais, both men and women. You'll never find them and even if you do, they won't let you in.


My apaologies fountainhall, I must have missed that message.
No problem - and thank you for mentioning it!

[frequent]

During your absence you no doubt did not read the post made by arsenal just 2 days ago on The Changes in Bangkok's Go-Go Bars thread
Those of us who have arsenal in our Foes list would also have missed it

[a447]

OMG, Kommie! Arsenal must be shattered!

Especially now that he knows you are not the only one who has put him on the list.

"Those of us...."

So are those "us"???

But the guys on your own Foes list have the funny knack of being able to remove themselves from that list at will and appear before you.

I'm on your Foes list, too. Remember? But that hasn't prevented you from quickly replying to my posts.

Then again, maybe it's a software issue. Lol

[christianpfc]

Just google the address of Dream Boys or Dicks Cafe and you will find that they are consistently listed as:...

Open up Hornet and zoom into the location of Dream Boys and Dicks and you will see the small street labeled as Soi Decho!
Most information on the internet is copied from elsewhere, including all mistakes. The authority for the name of this soi will be in Thai language.


...to spend a few nights going to the go-go bars, I always seemed to have trouble locating the soi.

I even kept a few business cards from some of the bars and massage joints and they refer to it as follows:
On my first trip to Thailand, I came across this soi by chance. From then on, I can find it blind.
Business cards? I never thought of asking them for a business card, but shall do when/if I ever go again.

So if this soi has a name for many years, if taxi drivers know how to find it, why does google maps not show this soi?
There are many mistakes in google maps. I would have thought nostramap (a Thai based mapmaker) is better, but it lacks Soi Twilight! https://map.nostramap.com/NostraMap/

[loke]

So you're saying that there will be gogo bars because the Thais know where to go to have fun, but they won't be in the main tourist area even though the bars will exists "as long as tourists keep coming to Bangkok"??

What I meant is there will be room for both , as we all know farang tourists and local Thais form of entertainment is slightly different and do not mix very well , some locals would call Soi Pratuchai a tourist trap . Thais , unless they want to hang out with foreigners prefer other types of entertainment (karaoke ,clubs etc) .
They will both survive but maybe relocate to other parts of the city .

[fountainhall]

Heard the cops made another visit to all the Twilight bars last night. I'm not in Thailand this week and have no more details but it seems to have been another attempt to ensure no illegal foreign workers.

[werner]

This thread has interesting insights and historical details.

So, what is the conclusion? What is the future for the soi?

And what is the future of Dream Boys? Will the putative German owner retire and close the business?

Will any Bangkok bar be able a lot of attract go-go guys in the future?

[arsenal]

Werner: Yes. But they will come from Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and Burma. I'm fine with that.

[fountainhall]

I believe arsenal is correct. It will take a year or more but most of the Thai guys will eventually give up and the owners will go for guys from the cheaper surrounding countries. But the question then is - will they be permitted to employ these guys whose chances of getting work permits must be close to zero? We can see that there is presently a crackdown. Will that not lead to more of the same?

[AsDaRa]

Why will the Thai moneyboys give up? Alternative well paid jobs for these badly educated (only high school) boys are not for the picking and they will soon discover that their previous employment got quick rewards for short time. The best looking ones who got multiple offs a week will never be able to earn with another job what they earned being a moneyboy. I don't see these give up.

[fountainhall]

In two words - the apps!

In six words - the bar owners will give up!

[latintopxxx]

i must admit that I will miss the gogo bars if they do indeed die...maybe the boys in blue will realise that their tea money in being endangered and let nature take its course....oh how I will miss those full n swinging from the rafters fuck shows...