Does this piece describe you? Culture shock.

[arsenal]

It's specifically about Thailand but could just as easily apply to any country.

http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2016/07/29/five-stages-culture-shock-foreigners-thailand

[Surfcrest]

A fascinating piece, not so far off the mark on most points. I judge people by how they drive and Thais drive as though they are in it for themselves. People here and in the States to the south of us drive the same way...we may let someone in on a rare occasion but in Thailand? Never! When you cross the border into Cambodia, the Zen is that It's your turn, then my turn and so on...as they do farther south down in Oregon. LOL

Seriously though, Thais are indeed different. It's been a few years now since I've been back, but my stays are usually (long for me), a couple of months and by the end I'm usually ready to get back home where I can give the old leash of patience, a bit of well needed slack. I don't find them overly self aware...but then that's just me.

Surfcrest

[arsenal]

Surfcrest wrote:
"I judge people by how they drive and Thais drive as though they are in it for themselves. People here and in the Stare to the south of us drive the same way...we may let someone in on a rare occasion but in Thailand? Never!"

I really don't want this to develop into another motorbike thread and I've never driven a car in Thailand but this is simply not my experience on a motorbike. If it was I really wouldn't be advising the OAPs on this board to rent one.

Regarding the article and judging by what the ex-pats on this board write they seem to jump from one to the other depending on how things are going.

[Manforallseasons]

I do not agree with most of these assumptions and they apply to expats only. Thailand is no different then anywhere else when it comes to being ripped-off there ar the good and the bad most large scams are perpitrated by falang against falang. If sex is your only reason for visiting you will encounter the lowest economic tier of Thai society and everything that goes with that. As for adjusting to the cultural challenges that is a gradual process and the real adjustment comes when you return for a visit to your former home country.

[Pharang]

I don't agree that the article "could just as easily apply to any country." Thailand is not like most developed countries. Westerners in Thailand, whether tourists or expats,come from places that are far more open, democratic and egalitarian than Thailand, which is a rigid almost feudal society by comparison.

The idea that a westerner somehow "becomes bi-cultural" who can live "more happily here" by learning to accept the lack of freedom and mobility is a very cynical concept.It's like saying we should all become cannibals if the locals are still eating each other.

[cdnmatt]

I agree, but in general for all countries, not just Thailand. This is basically a lightly version of the commonly used stages of culture shock, which I think were originally written by the AAP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_shock

But yeah, sounds about right to me.

[Manforallseasons]

The idea that a westerner somehow "becomes bi-cultural" who can live "more happily here" by learning to accept the lack of freedom and mobility is a very cynical concept.It's like saying we should all become cannibals if the locals are still eating each other.

Not quite sure what you mean by lack of mobility as it relates to expats, as for freedom it is a tradeoff as the only real lack of freedom is a lack of political discussion as it relates to the current political climate and for a bystander thats not a problem.

[arsenal]

Pharang wrote:
"The idea that a westerner somehow "becomes bi-cultural" who can live "more happily here" by learning to accept the lack of freedom and mobility is a very cynical concept."

Freedom is itself an abstract concept. In the US you can criticise the government but should not walk alone at night in many many places. In other countries it's the other way round. In quite a few ways countries with less 'freedoms' are actually providing their citizens with a more free way to live their day to day lives. If I wanted to open a gay bar/club anywhere in China it would not be a problem but in some US towns and cities it would not be possible.

[Pharang]

...the only real lack of freedom is a lack of political discussion as it relates to the current political climate and for a bystander thats not a problem.

You sound like a Yankee sipping Bourbon while being fanned in the lobby of a Havana brothel in 1950.

[arsenal]

Pharang wrote:
"You sound like a Yankee sipping Bourbon while being fanned in the lobby of a Havana brothel in 1950.

That sounds fantastic and now that Old Beardys' dead it's a very real possibility. I want some too. Indeed I can see Cuba becoming the next big thing for retired ex-pats.

[Smiles]

Pharang wrote:

"You sound like a Yankee sipping Bourbon while being fanned in the lobby of a Havana brothel in 1950.

A cutiesypie (sp?) analogy if I have ever heard one ... cutsey but shallow. Almost in the same league as the first Pharang attempt at it: " ... It's like saying we should all become cannibals if the locals are still eating each other .." Gearing up for an Analogy Free-for-All are we?
I smell a man ~ not woman ~ named 'H*dda'. (I choked on that name some years ago ~ which explains the " * " ) .

[Marsilius]

Sad to say, in my experience many ex-pats living in Thailand never get beyond stage 3 - the anger stage. As the original piece observed, that frame of mind can be perpetuated for years and some people actually seem to glory in their sheer rage towards all things Thai (even, sooner or later, the boys).

I have known an Australian who has lived in Pattaya, Bangkok and most recently Hat Yai for more than 20 years. Unfortunately, it is no longer even a pleasure to meet up with him on my visits to Thailand because of his constant negativity that, far from decreasing as time goes on, seems to get worse.

[Manforallseasons]

Freedom is itself an abstract concept. In the US you can criticise the government but should not walk alone at night in many many places. In other countries it's the other way round. In quite a few ways countries with less 'freedoms' are actually providing their citizens with a more free way to live their day to day lives.

That is an excellent point arsenal, I have been all over Thailand at all hours of the day and night and never did I ever feel unsafe.....Maybe this is what Pharang meant when he spoke of "mobility" the freedom to go when and where you want safely, also if Pharang knows anything about Cuba I'de be sipping Rum not Burbon.

[arsenal]

And in fact MFAS it goes even deeper than that. The liberating joy of walking home at 2.00 or 3.00am and every woman you see is simply not scared of you compared to The UK where they are and then you feel guilty just for being there. The city I live in has over two million people, and virtually no crime. That's real freedom that is. Bliss.

[fountainhall]

That is an excellent point arsenal, I have been all over Thailand at all hours of the day and night and never did I ever feel unsafe
I have lived in three Asian cities in three different countries for over 35 years. I have never once felt unsafe. Whilst travelling I have been robbed on the streets in Rome in daylight, mugged in Rio in the daylight, robbed in Barcelona airport in daylight and felt 'uncomfortable' walking home in a few other cities. But never where I have lived in Asia.

[latintopxxx]

what a great topic, love the way everyone has contributed in a fairly impartial way without attacking others. Congratulations...must be the Christmas cheer. Personally I tend not to judge other counties/cultures...Im here as a visitor, its their country so its their rules...and if I dont like it I simply leave.
Classic example is working with Chinese suppliers...according to western norms they all cheat...but they call it buyer beware..its up to u the buyer to check every order.

[Pharang]

[QUOTE=arsenal;212563]Pharang wrote:

"Freedom is itself an abstract concept. In the US you can criticise the government but should not walk alone at night in many many places. In other countries it's the other way round. In quite a few ways countries with less 'freedoms' are actually providing their citizens with a more free way to live their day to day lives."

You're confusing the concept of political freedom with personal safety,inviting the absurd conclusion that prisoners held in solitary confinement are free. History suggests to some that societies that surrender freedom for order usually end up with less of both.

[arsenal]

Pharang wrote:
"You're confusing the concept of political freedom with personal safety,inviting the absurd conclusion that prisoners held in solitary confinement are free."

Personal safety in going about your daily life is freedom because if it's not safe to do something then you're not really free to do it. There are two freedoms and they are freedom from... and freedom to... and like it or not there is an inherent clash between them.

Pharang wrote:
" History suggests to some that societies that surrender freedom for order usually end up with less of both."

All societies surrender some freedom for order. It's simply a matter of how much. Otherwise it's not a society, it's back to Hobbes state of nature.

[fountainhall]

Classic example is working with Chinese suppliers...according to western norms they all cheat...but they call it buyer beware..its up to u the buyer to check every order.
It's an ancient Chinese custom - squeeze! It's how some Chinese became rich and others, especially in the days of the British and other foreign trading companies during the 19th century, accumulated unimaginable wealth. These compradors, the middle men who dealt with the foreigners and facilitated trade, despite getting paid only a moderate salary by the foreigners, took their commissions all along the line from their fellow Chinese. Some equate "squeeze" to corruption. Yet compradors were the bridge over which all trade flowed. In Chinese eyes their various sources of income were an obvious result of the provision of sophisticated services and guarantees. There is little evidence that the compradors were essentially dishonest.

One of the most famous was Sir Robert Ho Tung, a Eurasian who became head comprador for the British firm Jardine, Matheson & Co. (Mr. Jardine and Mr. Matheson having been largely responsible for persuading the British parliament of the need to go to war to enforce the sale of opium in China in the 1830s). In addition, he developed his own extensive commercial interests through the traditional Chinese way - his contacts, or guanxi. By the age of 35 he was estimated to be the richest man in Hong Kong. He was to finance the Xinghai Revolution which overthrew the Qing dynasty and facilitated the rise of Sun Yat-sen.

Ho Tung's descendants still live in Hong Kong where his children and grandchildren continued his tradition of philanthropy on a massive scale, especially in the areas of education and health. Hong Kong's squillionaires have always believed in the need to give back to their communities and their families' traditional villages and towns in China. I'm not sure present day Chinese squillionaires are so giving - other than to themselves!

[Manforallseasons]

All societies surrender some freedom for order. It's simply a matter of how much. Otherwise it's not a society, it's back to Hobbes state of nature.

A good example of this is the N.S.A.(national security agency) a U.S. agency that monitors info from people around the world from emails to phone calls in an attempt to thwart terror attacts and the U.S. hasn't had a major attack after 9/11 and yes there are issues of personnal freedoms that arise from this but again this is a trade off.

[christianpfc]

Interesting article.

For me, there was a stage that I call self-doubt but have now overcome:

Is my Thai pronunciation that bad? No, the Thai person I'm speaking to is just perplexed that a foreigner is speaking to her/him and can't grasp the complexity of my question (e.g. "When does this bus leave to Mae Sot?" - first a blank stare, then "Yes!").

Did we agree to meet at 11 am or did we not? Solved by written communication (Line): yes we did, but the boy is late or no show.

[latintopxxx]

fountainhall...think we are talking about 2 different things. As an auditor (quality...not financial as some people automatically assume) Im often called in to mediate...western company requests a sample....chinese supply one meeting spec...contract is signed...1st 1/2 dozen deliveries meet spec...and when the customer drops its guard product that most definitely does not meet spec is shipped. Can be difficult to monitor without specialized lab technology when its a finished or semi-finished food product.
in the west this is called cheating.
What u r referring to is a faciliator or middle man who takes a cut...not dishonest at all...

[1moRussian]

Thanx Arsenal for the link, here is the second article on the subject:
http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2016/09/09/5-common-miscommunications-between-foreigners-and-thais

But again, as Cdnmatt pointed, the core ideas are well known worldwide, although particular Thailand implementations are interesting. As a kind of future reading: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede%27s_cultural_dimensions_theory

[Pharang]

After reading those culture comparisons by that Kasetsart Univ lecturer, I googled him expecting to find some tenured senior citizen. I was surprised to find a young Thai man with a recent German University degree. This makes me wonder if the author is recording the realty of Thailand today or cultural mantras that prevailed in the country's feudal past which have long since been eroded or even discarded.

If you take time to spend a few days observing contemporary Thai TV shows and soaps, you'll likely see the kind of social interaction that more closely matches the western, not Thai, patterns and values featured in these articles. This makes you wonder to what degree the Thai culture described in these comparisons is better history than an accurate reflection of the state of mind of contemporary Thai people.

I don't mean to suggest that there are not elements of this society whose mission is to preserve and protect the collective and passive elements of Thai history that have so enabled authoritarian rule. I just wonder how much of that society exists any more in a culture that gets its news and values from TV and the internet.

[Yraen]

I just wonder how much of that society exists any more in a culture that gets its news and values from TV and the internet.

I would accept this statement with a little modification. " ... news and values from Thai TV and news papers and the desired censorship implied by a national 'single gateway' under government control".

[werner]

Interesting discussion.

I have lived and worked in about 8 countries. The worst culture shock I have experienced is often when I return "home" to Switzerland--and realize how much I have changed.

Moreover, I sometimes get annoyed when I meet Swiss nationals whose native language is [Swiss]German. There can be an awkward moment--should I speak in German or French? [French is my native language.] And, because I have spent much time in Berlin--should I try modify my German to sound more "Swiss"...

Sometimes "culture shock" involves your own country and your own country men/women.....

Just some random thoughts.....

[bobsaigon2]

I agree completely with Werner. Imagine the shock of a long time expat American who returns to the US and discovers that his country has been Trumped !

[werner]

And the Trumping of the U.S. causes enormous culture shock and anger even for non-Americans like myself.

[cdnmatt]

Agree woth wermer as well. Since 2005, I've lived in multiple countries, and only spent 1 year in Canada in 2008 in Vancouver. Even in 2008 it took a bit of getting used to, let alone what it would be like now, hence why I have no real ambition to move back any time soon.

[sglad]

I agree completely with Werner. Imagine the shock of a long time expat American who returns to the US and discovers that his country has been Trumped !

But surely American culture before or after Trump is not homogeneous and Trump's ideas and values are supported by and representative of a large number of Americans who voted for him? Even I know they're not all Anderson Coopers and there are plenty of Bill O'Reillys and Glen Becks over there.

[bobsaigon2]

Yes, "even you" know... everything (shades of Beachlover). Let me put it this way: if I were to return to America now, I would be very displeased with the way things are going.

[a447]

Interesting discussion.

I have lived and worked in about 8 countries. The worst culture shock I have experienced is often when I return "home" to Switzerland--and realize how much I have changed.

Moreover, I sometimes get annoyed when I meet Swiss nationals whose native language is [Swiss]German. There can be an awkward moment--should I speak in German or French? [French is my native language.] And, because I have spent much time in Berlin--should I try modify my German to sound more "Swiss"...

Sometimes "culture shock" involves your own country and your own country men/women.....

Just some random thoughts.....

I can relate to your experience 100%.

On returning to Australia after a life in Japan I experienced reverse culture shock and within a week was ready to pack up and go back to Tokyo.

Although I never forgot how to speak English I had a lot of trouble understanding Australian English and I thought everyone spoke so quickly that I couldn't understand everything. The accent still amuses me.

I found Australians to be way too forward, way too blunt, way too eager to express their opinions, whereas I had spent a life trying not to tread on people's toes, choosing my language carefully whenever I spoke.

I'm over it now but still find certain things that irk me from time to time. Like the "she'll be right" attitude or when people say "That'll do; that's close enough."

No it isn't! It has to be perfect! Lol

The mai pen rai attitude is alive and well in Australia.

[fountainhall]

I think there is always culture shock both when you move to any society in a country/continent far removed from your own and when you return after a longish period of time. For me, language has never been a major issue if only because I never bothered to learn more than the basics in the three countries where I have lived. I realise that is mostly sheer laziness, especially here in Thailand where I promised myself I would learn Thai and reneged on it - so far. Cantonese in Hong Kong is a tough language to master with its nine different tone levels. I did try, made endless embarrassing mistakes and then gave up. In any case, for most of my years living there English was the second language and even taxi drivers knew quite a bit.

Tokyo was very different, but I had visited dozens of times before moving there and so knew the basics as it were. Plus I was working for an American company and all the senior managers spoke English. There was no pressure to learn more. Same when I moved to Bangkok. Enough people speak at least some English.

What I have enjoyed is trying to assimilate more to the cultures, many aspects of which are so totally different from those I was brought up with. The vital importance of face - both giving and losing; not "treading on toes" as a447 pointed out; the need to remain calm and the avoidance of conflict; the different levels of bowing in Japan and wais in Thailand; 'no' sometimes meaning 'yes' and vice versa; lengthy silences during negotiations in Japan that can seem oddly embarrassing to westerners; providing evasive answers that leave you uncertain of what has been agreed or decided when the other party is perfectly sure they have been 100% clear; the difficulty others have in understanding English idioms - and hosts more. Although I have returned to the UK annually, increasingly I find the almost in-your-face directness strangely uncomfortable, as though the rules of the role-playing that are required in some Asian societies are being flouted and I don't understand why!

[arsenal]

An excellent piece Fountainhall. My theory is that more direct language comes along with a genuine democratic process and rule of law.. So the question "Do you like the government?" can be answered with a clear yes or no. This is not the case in most countries where the wrong answer can get you into a lot of trouble. Hence what westerners see as constant hedging.

[werner]

Thanks to forum members for this interesting discussion.

"Culture shock" results from traveling the world and trying to understand various cultures. It also involves trying to readjust to our own cultures when we return.

"Culture shock" involves trying to learn different languages and trying to communicate with people of different cultures. But, as we travel the world, we also adjust our own native language(s)and our ways of communicating, even in our "native" languages.

French is my "native" language. But my Swiss-French accent has certainly changed a bit after living in France, and working in Senegal and Côte d'Ivoire. If I spent much time in the Montréal, what would happen to my French?

But alas, my French is sometimes overpowered by my English, because I did all my university studies and graduate training in the U.S., and I write about "Gay Thailand" in English.


Thanks again for the discussion!

[a447]

as though the rules of the role-playing that are required in some Asian societies are being flouted

That's the point.

In Asian countries people learn from a young age a variety of roles and they know what role to play and when it must be played. There are very strict rules governing each role and getting it wrong results in a massive loss of face.

Like many things in Japan, these rules are not written down anywhere and are often not even mentioned. But everyone manages to learn them.

It results in an orderly, peaceful society.

There are, however, drawbacks in the eyes of some foreigners.

[arsenal]

a447 wrote:
"In Asian countries people learn from a young age a variety of roles and they know what role to play and when it must be played. There are very strict rules governing each role and getting it wrong results in a massive loss of face."

Exactly. This is why westerners should never bow in Japan or wai in Thailand. Get it wrong and it's the equivalent of addressing a judge as 'matey boy' or the waiter as 'your royal eminence'.

[a447]

This is why westerners should never bow in Japan or wai in Thailand.

Well, not if they do not understand exactly how it's done.

[arsenal]

These things are impossible for a non native to fully understand unless they have spent many years living there and speak the language fluently.

[fountainhall]

My theory is that more direct language comes along with a genuine democratic process and rule of law.. So the question "Do you like the government?" can be answered with a clear yes or no. This is not the case in most countries where the wrong answer can get you into a lot of trouble. Hence what westerners see as constant hedging.
I believe it goes a lot deeper than that in several countries. In Japan, Korea, China, Thailand there is the deep-rooted, age-old respect for elders. So you do as you are told. more or less. In Japan the samurai culture of blind obedience is even more obvious. Very few manage to break the mould which dictates that the square peg will be rammed into the round hole if it will not do so of its own volition. That will change over time, but it is the new younger generations that will effect that change. And the period of change will take longer than those calling from outside for greater freedom and democracy as a cure for government misdeeds.

There was an interesting article in a recent issue of the Hong Kong Foreign Correspondents' Club. Keith Richebourg is an American journalist who was the Washington Post's Beijing Bureau Chief before moving to the same position in Hong Kong. He has also been based in several other countries and is now the Director of Journalism and Media Studies at Hong Kong University. He gave a talk to the HKFCC last year focused on freedom and political events. He said decades ago he strongly believed that as the spread of the internet would "hold democracies to account around the world, so it would also happen in China."

"But i was wrong."

He went on to talk about the Asian Economic Crisis which quickly led to currency devaluations and a general loss of faith in governments across the region. "We were swept up in this idea that the economic crisis was going to change the Southeast Asian landscape . . . Just as democracy swept through Latin America and the former communist states of East Europe . . . East Asia too is in the midst of what many are calling a slow but steady move towards pluralism and openness.

"But I was wrong."

He spends some time talking about what he calls the Weibo (a major blog site in China) pressure period in 2009 and 2010 when ordinary citizens were quietly posting information critical of the government. "There's the story of the blogger who looked at official photos where he focussed on their wrists to see what watch they were wearing; pricing them and then matching that to officials' salaries – disciplinary action followed for the officials . . . It was a sort of people's campaign against corruption . . . the free and open Weibo period where people could speak out to power and news could filter through. I thought it was never going to change back again.

"I was wrong."

He cites several reasons for the change in official thinking in China too numerous to mention here. But looking at China and what was happening in some other Asian countries led him to a conclusion.

"What's happening here in Asia does not fit any model that we have ever had before. A growing middle class makes countries more democratic was the model I studied. However, China (and he mentions another country here) has turned that around, where the new middle class want stability rather than democracy." He is not totally pessimistic about future movements towards democracy, but it will take time.

It so happens I have four gay friends here in Bangkok for a few days. They live in Beijing and Shanghai and two I have known for about 25 years. Discussing politics in very general terms at dinner on Thursday, I told them this view of Keith Richebourg. They agree entirely. They want stability over almost anything else. it has enabled them to run their own small businesses. All travel quite extensively to Europe and North America as well as around Asia. Why would we want the political chaos we see in the USA, the UK and other parts of the democratic world? was a common refrain. Of course they are perfectly well aware of the corruption and other major problems that exist in China. But they know from the previous generation how chaos had ruled in China as far back as anyone could remember. What they want to continue is stability. (I know arsenal has also mentioned this in posts on another thread).

One wonders what Keith Richebourg will have to say about East Asia after another 20 years or so.


These things are impossible for a non native to fully understand unless they have spent many years living there and speak the language fluently.
Sorry arsenal but I have always bowed in Japan ever since my first or second visit. You learn and it becomes second nature!!

[arsenal]

Sorry Fountainhall: The 'the deep-rooted, age-old respect for elders' does not extend to anyone giving up their seat on a bus or train for them, unlike in The UK. So it's a meaningless respect as it exists in words only. And perhaps your bowing was most correct or perhaps it wasn't. The Japanese would be very unlikely to tell you if it was the latter for the very reasons we've been discussing. Fitting in does not and has never meant aping, It means both sides accepting the others foibles.

Are you seriously saying you mastered this? Because I find that hard to believe.
From Wikipedia on Japanese etiquette.

Bowing
Main article: Bowing

Bowing (お辞儀 o-jigi?), is probably the feature of Japanese etiquette that is best known outside Japan (the o お is honorific but cannot be omitted for this word). Bowing is considered extremely important in Japan, so much so that, although children normally begin learning how to bow from a very young age, companies commonly provide training to their employees in how to execute bows correctly.

Basic bows are performed with the back straight and the hands at the sides (boys and men) or clasped in the lap (girls and women), and with the eyes down. Bows originate at the waist. Generally, the longer and deeper the bow, the stronger the emotion and the respect expressed.

Bows can be generally divided into three main types: informal, formal, and very formal. Informal bows are made at about a fifteen degree angle or just tilt over one's head to the front, and more formal bows at about thirty degrees. Very formal bows are deeper.

The etiquette surrounding bowing, including the length and depth of bow, and the appropriate response, is exceedingly complex. For example, if the other person maintains his or her bow for longer than expected (generally about two or three seconds), it is polite to bow again, upon which one may receive another bow in return. This often leads to a long exchange of progressively lighter bows.

Generally speaking, an inferior bows longer, more deeply and more frequently than a superior. A superior addressing an inferior will generally only nod the head slightly, while some superiors may not bow at all and an inferior will bend forward slightly from the waist.

Bows of apology tend to be deeper and last longer than other types of bow. They tend to occur with frequency during the apology, generally at about 45 degrees with the head lowered and lasting for at least the count of three, sometimes longer. The depth, frequency and duration of the bow increases with the sincerity of the apology and the severity of the offense. Occasionally, in the case of apology and begging, people crouch down like Sujud to show one's absolute submission or extreme regret. This is called Dogeza. Even though Dogeza was previously considered very formal, it is mostly regarded as a contempt for oneself today, so it is not used in an everyday setting. Bows of thanks follow the same pattern. In extreme cases a kneeling bow is performed; this bow is sometimes so deep that the forehead touches the floor. This is called saikeirei (最敬礼), literally "most respectful bow."

When dealing with non-Japanese people, many Japanese will shake hands. Since many non-Japanese are familiar with the custom of bowing, this often leads to a combined bow and handshake which can be quite complicated to execute. Bows may be combined with handshakes or performed before or after shaking hands. Generally when bowing in close proximity, as necessitated when combining bowing and shaking hands, people turn slightly to one side (usually the left) to avoid bumping heads.

[a447]

Are you seriously saying you mastered this? Because I find that hard to believe

Arsenal, I don't find it hard to believe at all.

What Fountainhall has no doubt become adept at is combining a simple bow with certain common words or phrases in Japanese. These words magically elicit an automatic bow as they are spoken. Examples are konnichi wa (hello) and arigatou (thanks).

Although the Wikipedia article is basically correct, it would be wrong to think that in real life people actually mentally "measure" the exact angle of the bow, be it 15, 30, 45 degrees or whatever. Such precise angles are only adhered to by department store girls and flight attendants.

The angle and length/timing of the bow is something that you just know, instinctively. You make a very quick decision once you have summed up the situation. That's why Japanese use business cards-a quick glance will tell you who bows the deepest.

So I've no idea if fountainhall has mastered the intricacies of the Japanese bow in every different situation, but I'm sure he knows at least the everyday one. He would be aware that a greeting which was not accompanied by a bow, even from a foreigner, would look very strange indeed.

I still remember the days when I'd be talking on the phone at home in Australia to certain staff members in my old company back in Tokyo. My friends would piss themselves laughing because I was constantly standing there bowing as I was talking.

"Who the fuck are you bowing to? There's nobody there!" they'd say.

Lol

[arsenal]

If companies need to provide training on this bowing thing then I fail to see how a westerner can really get it. But hey ho.

[a447]

Easy. Companies which deal with the public must ensure that their employees get it perfectly correct. There can be no room for the slightest error.

These employees are also given intensive language training, too. "Why?" you ask, if they are all native speakers? Because they are expected to speak appropriately to every customer on every single occasion. There is no room for error here, either. A wrong word or verb ending would be catastrophic. So they attend special classes day after day until they get it perfect.

Everybody else just gets it "right" (as opposed to "perfect") including, I suppose, some foreigners. But they certainly won't be tourists.

[fountainhall]

The basic bow is easy to pick up, and the general art of bowing is actually not all that complex when you visit Japan regularly and then work there for a period of years, the more so when you work in a company with only Japanese staff at various levels who are bowing goodness knowns how many times a day to a variety of different people in different positions. It was easy to see how managers in my position would bow to the Chairmen and Presidents of major Japanese corporations, the difference when it was Executive Managers and then plain old ordinary managers. And in quite a few of the companies my team and I had to visit, the executives we met spoke almost no English and expected those from the company I worked for to conduct themselves in the manner of other Japanese.

Of course not all those bows in the wikipedia article were in my repertoire. I never had to apologise to my staff, for example LOL But the positions as outlined in the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs - all that comes reasonably quickly if you are prepared to use your eyes and think of yourself as a Japanese. That is not "aping" as you say. I suggest it is being culturally sensitive with a view to achieving the objectives your company has set for you.

[fountainhall]

If companies need to provide training on this bowing thing then I fail to see how a westerner can really get it. But hey ho.
Companies don't do any training at all. Children learn the culture of bowing from their parents almost as soon as they can stand. And they gradually pick up the intricacies as easily as they learn the language. If they don't know how to bow when they apply for a job, they won't get the job!

[arsenal]

You don't get it right. They just don't tell you. Asian politeness. Just as we wouldn't tell someone who ate soup with a dessert spoon.

A quote from the article.
"Bowing is considered extremely important in Japan, so much so that, although children normally begin learning how to bow from a very young age, companies commonly provide training to their employees in how to execute bows correctly."

But you picked it up? A culture going back centuries. Impressive.

[fountainhall]

You really are becoming boring, arsenal! And your continued harping on on this topic when you know nothing about it, despite what I and a447 (a poster who spent decades in Japan) have written, implies you don't believe what I have written. Well I can tell you it is the absolute truth. And I trust you will not continue to infer that I am lying.

Incidentally, when I left Hong Kong for Japan, I gave a dinner for my senior staff. Our senior accountant gave me what I thought was the greatest compliment I could have hoped for. She said the staff felt I was "more Chinese than a Chinese". No doubt you don't believe that either.

[a447]

Companies don't do any training at all

Actually fountainhall, companies in the service industry certainly do have training courses. Lots of them. If you fail the "exam" at the end of the course, chances are you're out.

And arsenal, from my experience I have no doubt whatsoever that fountainhall is telling it as it is. From what I gather, he worked as a businessman for many years in a Japanese company so I'm pretty sure he would know what to do with regards to bowing etiquette. Ok, he may or may not have "mastered" it, but he'd pick up the basics pretty quickly I'd imagine.

As he said,"use your eyes and think of yourself as a Japanese." That should do the trick.

Incidentally, I find this topic very interesting. I've tried many times over the years to explain this whole bowing thing to my Australian friends, but in the end I just gave up. It was too hard.

[arsenal]

If you say so Fountainhall. I'm not sure being described as Chinese is entirely a compliment but one can, of course take these things how one wishes. Don't take things so personally. I simply refuse to accept that a westerner can fully understand the culture of a totally different society and that goes for Asians heading the other way. And if you don't speak the language it goes double. But it's just my opinion.

[fountainhall]

As you say, it's just your opinion, but you express it strongly with more than a hint of sarcasm. And that's on the basis of having lived only a few years in an Asian country and never having spent much time in Japan, let alone having worked there.

As for the reference to Chinese, it was of course meant in a business sense. For all my time in Hong Kong and Japan has been business-related.

But then you are the expert and you have your opinions of what other posters write and express as the truth.

[arsenal]

I'm sorry. I shall in future agree with whatever you write Oh Great Master of all things Asia and Asian.

[fountainhall]

And that adds insult to injury. Goodnight!

[aussie_]

I rarely have tried a Thai wai and cringe when I see other foriegners giving a wai to every Thai they greet. I have noticed that Thais do not wai foriegners as often as in past years in the places that I visit.

I did travel to Japan on a business trip and there were so many Japanese bowing so often that it became an almost involuntary action to bow back. Hopefully they appreciated that I was ignorant in the correct bowing technique and were used to it after dealing with other foreigners. I can remember that after returning to Australia from Japan for the first couple of days that I was still ocassionally bowing to people upon greeting which probably looked a bit silly but my brain and body had become conditioned to do so after three weeks in Japan.

For the last two and half years I have been travelling between Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, China and return to Australia every four months. I can adjust between the habits and cultural differences between the Asian countries within a day or so although China took a bit longer the first time. After many trips to Asia the biggest culture shock is when I return to Australia.

[sglad]

She said the staff felt I was "more Chinese than a Chinese". No doubt you don't believe that either.

I believe you and I'm sorry you had to go through it. To say someone is "more Chinese than a Chinese" is a backhanded compliment that we Chinese reserve for those foreigners who overdo the assimilation thing. Although the put-down is directed at the fuddy duddy guest, it's really an inside joke for us to snicker among ourselves at the over-the-top behaviour of the guest. Usually the foreigner has a static view of his host culture, something he picked up from a guide book published 50 years ago, and clings on to rigid beliefs and practices that may no longer apply in the host culture to satisfy his own colonial hang up of the quaint 'Chinaman'. Don't be surprised if he has a DVD of Broken Blossoms in his favourite movies stash. This is not unique to the Chinese. Twice now I've seen Thais poke fun at westerners for overdoing the Thai thing, once by mimicking the exaggerated way he spoke Thai and another time by telling the guy "Khun mern Khon Thai maak" with the emphasis on 'maak' ('maaaak') corresponding with the degree of the sneer. In both instances the westerners did not realise they were being made fun of, but the Thais in the background were snickering.

"You're more British than a Brit."

"You're more American than a Yank."

"You're more Black than Justin Bieber or Rachel Dolezal."

Doesn't really sound like a compliment, does it?

[fountainhall]

I believe you and I'm sorry you had to go through it.
And you sglad haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about. Your cover is already more or less blown!

[sglad]

And you sglad haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about.

I'm sorry, fountainhall. I guess you are indeed more Chinese than a Chinese. ;)

[a447]

Sglad, I can see where, in some cases at least, that could indeed be a snide remark.

But you forget to mention that fountainhall is not some "fuddy duddy foreigner" who drops into China occasionally. He has been working there for decades - in a managerial position. So do you really believe he hasn't yet picked up the local etiquette? He's been exposed to it for years and getting it "right", as opposed to being it "perfect" is not all that difficult.

I was also told "You are more Japanese than a Japanese " over the 30 or so years I lived there. Every fucking day! And you know what? At times I actually agreed with them. Yeah, I am able to speak polite Japanese better than you. Yeah, I can write more Chinese characters than you. Yeah, I can tell you what expression to use in this situation. And you know what? I can even tell you that you are holding your chopsticks the wrong way!

Do you think they were being "snide" to me?

I think you may have been trying to score a cheap shot.

BTW, perhaps you would like to introduce us all to the concept of "face" in China.

Lol

[sglad]

I was also told "You are more Japanese than a Japanese " over the 30 or so years I lived there. Every fucking day! And you know what? At times I actually agreed with them. Yeah, I am able to speak polite Japanese better than you. Yeah, I can write more Chinese characters than you. Yeah, I can tell you what expression to use in this situation. And you know what? I can even tell you that you are holding your chopsticks the wrong way!

See, if someone told me that I'm more Thai than Thai, I would take it as "Hey dude, chill. We're Thai and we're OK with slip ups, changes, turning things around a bit, it's 2017 so whatever." It would make me stop and think and I wouldn't brag about it. But if someone quietly says I'm behaving like a Thai person than I might take it as compliment that I have managed to somehow adapt to their culture or the very least not screw things up. Another loaded example: "You speak Thai very well or Khun phuut paasa Thai kheng maaak. This one can be interpreted in more than one way and is not necessarily a compliment. I never really know how to respond to it except to say "thank you" and "my Thai is not that great and I'm still learning."

[fountainhall]

I think you may have been trying to score a cheap shot.

BTW, perhaps you would like to introduce us all to the concept of "face" in China.

Lol
Thanks a447, but it's not so funny, really. The fact is that sglad's cover was blown when he wrote about Chinese New Year for what he wrote could not have been true. For it's clear I know the Chinese better than he does. And I'll leave it at that. But let's recall that in a response to a post by sglad it was bobsaigon2 who was the first to raise the spectre of a Beachlover earlier in this thread!

[sglad]

Yes, "even you" know... everything (shades of Beachlover). Let me put it this way: if I were to return to America now, I would be very displeased with the way things are going.

No, I don't know everything and wouldn't want to. Knowing everything would imply the death of curiosity and I wouldn't want that. What I meant is that America is a lot more diverse than what Hollywood America/the liberal media portray. Thanks to Hillary's elitist election strategies (among other things), the Russ Belters and the Bible Belters are now having their say through their faux conservative evangelical celebrity pastor, Donald Hallelujah Trump. And one doesn't have to go to the US to appreciate this. I say this because Chiang Mai is teeming with these types, most of them missionaries. Two Sundays ago I was invited to a barbecue by one of my friends who conveniently omitted to tell us that it was being organised by a youth wing of The Church of Christ in Thailand. Jesus Christ, it was like stepping into a set of a 1950s American movie! Women with big hair, guys in plaid and khakis, and they all talked slow and funny and used words like "amaaazing", "grreaaat" and "wowww". One guy who was flipping burgers (whom I later found out was a pastor of some sort) asked me if I was a Christian and I said "No, I'm Buddhist." And you know what he said to me? "You're still young son and it's not too late to come back." Now what the fuck did he mean by that? And some of these people have been in Thailand for decades, spoke perfect Thai and yet they still lived in their SUV bubbles. There goes the theory that living someplace for a long time, speaking the language, etc amount to true appreciation and understanding of the local culture. Myself and their Thai and Burmese minions were the only non-whites there! Did that pastor guy become like that only since 20 January 2017? No, he didn't so I don't get these incredulous "Oh this not my America", "This is not who we are" crap. Yes, it is exactly who a lot of you are and they're having their fifteen minutes of fame with Trump's election. And from what I could gather Trump is only a seat warmer for their real hero, Mike Spence, the true conservative who comes with a requisite fat wife and son who looks like he bashes gays for fun at the weekend.

[fountainhall]

And some of these people have been in Thailand for decades, spoke perfect Thai and yet they still lived in their SUV bubbles. There goes the theory that living someplace for a long time, speaking the language, etc amount to true appreciation and understanding of the local culture
And if that's the basis on which you base your conclusion, you have totally blown it. Note the language you use, sglad, and the references you as a alleged student make. It's all just blowing wind!

[bobsaigon2]

Yes, "alleged". I can't escape the feeling that Beachlover or one of his cohorts is lurking in the shadows.

[werner]

This discussion had many interesting replies. But why do so many of these discussions become personal attacks on other members??

[Marsilius]

The concept of bowing does not necessarily travel well internationally:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/nov/30/manager-demoted-for-failing-to-bow-to-korean-boss-uk-tribunal-told

[sglad]

The concept of bowing does not necessarily travel well internationally:


Unlike kneeling and bending over. ;)

[fountainhall]

Now that you are much more active, sglad, I note you have not responded to my earlier post.

http://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/images/metro/blue/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by sglad http://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/images/metro/blue/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/showthread.php?p=213779#post213779)
And some of these people have been in Thailand for decades, spoke perfect Thai and yet they still lived in their SUV bubbles. There goes the theory that living someplace for a long time, speaking the language, etc amount to true appreciation and understanding of the local culture

And if that's the basis on which you base your conclusion, you have totally blown it. Note the language you use, sglad, and the references you as a alleged student make. It's all just blowing wind!

[fountainhall]

What's wrong sglad? It's the weekend. You should have plenty of time to spare a little for your chosen chat room. What about a response to my eariier question ?


http://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/images/metro/blue/misc/quote_icon.pngOriginally Posted by fountainhallhttp://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/images/metro/blue/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/showthread.php?p=213781#post213781)
And if that's the basis on which you base your conclusion, you have totally blown it. Note the language you use, sglad, and the references you as a alleged student make. It's all just blowing wind