Airbus A380, Is bigger really better?

[Surfcrest]

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This week, Singapore Airlines became the latest airline to cool on the jet, saying it won’t renew its lease next year on an Airbus A380, the world’s largest passenger plane. The airline has 19 A380s in its fleet.

http://qz.com/782361/airbus-a380-airlines-are-abandoning-the-worlds-biggest-passenger-plane/

[fountainhall]

SIA is giving up the lease on just one aircraft, the first A380 it received! What that article fails to point out is that SIA has a policy to renew its fleet more often than most airlines. The average age of SIA's fleet is considerably under 10 years and that A380 will then be 10 years old. It still has other new A380s on order. As for Qantas giving up its options as mentioned in the article, that's an obvious business decision taken some years after the orders were signed because Qantas later decided to give up all its European routes except London. Its deal with Emirates now has both airlines flying A380s into Dubai and then Emirates aircraft taking Qantas passengers onwards.

Emirates itself has a fleet of 82 A380s in operation with a further 60 on order. But it does seem to be the case that in the wake of lower fuel prices and the more fuel efficient Boeing 787s and A350s airlines are less keen on the super jumbo. What I find slightly odd is that airlines like Cathay Pacific have 5 daily flights to London and 4 to New York, yet prefer to use 777s rather than have at least one A380 and cut the number of flights. BA used to have 3 daily 747 flights from London to Hong Kong. These have been reduced to 2 with one a 777 and the other an A380.

As for the plane itself, I have been on Emirates and Qatar's business class. Both are superb. Anyone wanting a few days in Hong Kong can get business class in the daily Emirates A380 for prices around Bt. 12,500 return. Given the great F&B offerings in the lounges, flat bed seats, a full meal service, the largest in-flight entertainment selection I have ever seen and the bar at the back with premium liquors and canapés, it is an amazing bargain. I took my Thai bf 2 years ago and he didn't want to leave the plane!

[Couple]

Add to that those leases they don't extend are on the very first A380 ever build. And like with cars and almost every technical product, one needs to avoid the first production units.
In airplanes the first planes are known to have more costs (and no-fly tile because on maintenance works) to be encountered because for technical updates and improvements.
The first plane they don't extend is the very first A380 sold, so the decision is very logical and was anticipated from the beginning. Same story for the next 4 they fly as they all count as being the first series.

[fountainhall]

I forgot to add that for decades the 747 was by far my favourite aircraft. As soon as I took my first A380 flight 6 years ago, that surpassed the 747.

[gerefan2]

Ive used the A 380 a few times and am tempted to avoid it for a couple of reasons;

1. I sat upstairs at the back. We were not allowed to get off via Business Class so had to down the rear stairs after Economy was empty. A wait of about 25 minutes to get all those people off first.

2. At LHR it took an hour to retrieve my baggage. When you think of it there must be well over 1000 bags to unload...

Great if you don't mind these delays!

[fountainhall]

Moral of the story must be - partly - don't sit upstairs at the back! Seriously, engine noise at the back, whichever deck, is bound to be louder than over and forward of the wing. But business class on the A380 is not always ideal for a quick exit. For some reason, some airports have more problem getting the upper deck airbridges to the plane (certainly true here at BKK) than those to the lower deck. I have often exited to find myself behind 100 or so economy pax. But that's merely an observation as the fast track cards speed up Immigration.

On that issue, though, the purser on my Emirates flights a couple of weeks ago told me that they are considering stopping handing out priority fast track cards on the HKG/BKK sector. Given that the tickets are so relatively cheap, I am not surprised as the airlines have to pay the Thai Airports Authority for each fast track passenger.

On the question of A380 sales, news today that finally one American airline is considering purchasing a few. Hawaiian is looking at it for west coast and Tokyo flights. Probably that's where the first SIA discards will end up.

[Old git]

I've yet to fly the A380, although everyone says how quiet it is. For reasons I've never been able to identify, I find it much easier to sleep on a Boeing than an Airbus, so gravitate to the 747 or 777 services.

Airbus do have a serious sales problem with the A380 - last year orders were just two units (and even that smacked of a contrived arrangement to avoid a zero sales year) and so far this year new orders are precisely zero.

Moreover, the dependence of the A380 on a single customer, Emirates, is potentially problematic, and for airlines like Singapore who like to run fresh new aircraft, there is a lack of obvious takers waiting to create a second hand market for the plane.

Without good residual values, banks and leasing companies will become very averse to this monster, especially if it becomes common currency that production of the model is moving prematurely toward it's end game..

[fountainhall]

Some good points, but as I recall from the dim and distant past, precisely the same arguments were made about the 747 when it first entered service. Only one person really wanted a plane as large as the 747. It was the legendary Juan Trippe of Pan Am who pushed Boeing into designing one. And it was he who insisted he'd only buy it if there was a small upper deck. In those days before the oil shocks of the 1970s - and before business class - he wanted his first class passengers to have a lounge and/or dining room up there.

The 747 opened up a new market for cheaper air travel. In Asia, the Chinese outbound tourist market alone is exploding exponentially and they are venturing much further afield than was the case even five years ago. It's airlines like Emirates which realise very large aircraft are needed on a hub and spoke operation to get this volume of traffic around the globe. It's the same as the deal Emirates did a few years ago with Qantas, but on a far larger scale. And the doubters all felt that Emirates deal signified the end of Qantas. They were wrong, too, as Qantas has recently announced record profits!

And going back to an earlier point I made about the A380s and BKK, I had it confirmed yesterday by someone who works at the airport that BKK just will not get moving on increasing the number of A380 gates! With BKK tumbling down the Asian airport rankings, so much for all the ballyhoo about BKK being the natural Asian hub!

[Old git]

The 747 certainly had a few early jitters of confidence, but then orders took off in style once it had proved itself in service. By contrast, orders for the A380, despite a safe service record, have suddenly hit a brick wall. I have been told that one reason is that the four engined plane drinks far more fuel than Airbus promised it would, yet the collapse in oil prices does not seem to have rescued its order book.

If BKK is foot dragging on providing more A380 handling capacity, then maybe that's because they doubt future demand. Thai's fleet of six planes have all been delivered with none on back order.

[fountainhall]

If BKK is foot dragging on providing more A380 handling capacity, then maybe that's because they doubt future demand. Thai's fleet of six planes have all been delivered with none on back order.
BKK is definitely foot dragging. After all, other carriers have A380 service into BKK requiring at least as many gates as TG. I just don't believe the AOT actually thinks! If one A380 service is regularly delayed on the tarmac for 30 minutes and more because a gate is still occupied, it proves there are not enough gates for existing demand. And what major airport has an A380 arrival so close to another A380 departure? That means a good number of passengers for two A380 departures are being crowded into just one departure lounge.

[Old git]

"If one A380 service is regularly delayed on the tarmac for 30 minutes and more because a gate is still occupied, it proves there are not enough gates for existing demand."

Let me hazard a guess.. that's not an A380 service run by Thai - correct?

[fountainhall]

that's not an A380 service run by Thai - correct?
Correct. It's the daily Emirates A380 from Hong Kong that then goes on to Dubai. From my observations having taken the Emirates flight well over a dozen times, most of the passengers ex-HKG are de-planing at BKK. After all Emirates has two more A380 non-stop services from HKG to Dubai that depart HKG within 4 hours before and after the flight to BKK. So most pax from there will clearly take the non-stop services.

That means several hundred Emirates pax are waiting on the tarmac and another few hundred at the gate. On all but one of the delays, it has been the result of TG flights being late on their departures - presumably to Europe. So in some cases their pax will still be in the departure gate given that the delays are usually between 30 - 40 minutes. TG flights are supposed to depart from the east side of the airport. Yet, often the delayed TG flight is parked at an A380 gate on the west side, the side that Emirates traditionally uses and where the EK lounge is situated (vastly better than any TG lounge). I'll bet EK's premium pax are thrilled at having to walking the entire length of the airport to get to those departure gates! TG passengers don't have that problem as it has lounges at both ends.

[Old git]

So BKK is looking after TG at the expense of other carriers - what a surprise!

Agree, the TG lounge at BKK feels more like a corridor than a lounge - uninspiring..

[frequent]

Emirates has just announced that they're replacing their daily SYD-BKK 777 aircraft with an A380, so now passengers can choose to fly all the way from London to Auckland on an Emirates A380.

[Old git]

"Emirates has just announced that they're replacing their daily SYD-BKK 777 aircraft with an A380, so now passengers can choose to fly all the way from London to Auckland on an Emirates A380."

Except that's doing things the hard way - it's easier to go the other way round the world (via the USA) when travelling from the UK to NZ

[fountainhall]

I'm not sure how the new Emirates flight routing will work. Looking 6 months ahead London to Auckland involves changing at Dubai and Melbourne. All aircraft are A380s and the fastest time is exactly 26 hours. Compare that with Air New Zealand ex-LHR via LAX and it takes 10 minutes longer! Booking direct with the airlines, economy on Emirates is £729 whilst Air NZ is £762. Similarly, biz class on Air NZ is about £80 more than Emirates. On that basis, I'd certainly take Emirates biz class unless agents could come up with much cheaper fares on Air NZ.

[Old git]

I've never had a competitive air fare quote from Air NZ, but it's a long time since I last went there.

How does Emirates compare with the US carriers?

[goji]

How does Emirates compare with the US carriers?
And does it increase the chances of an announcement along the lines of "This is captain Bin Laden speaking" ?

[Surfcrest]

http://qz.com/791546/a-map-of-everywhere-the-a380-flies/

More from Quartz Mapped: Everywhere the A380 flies

[fountainhall]

How does Emirates compare with the US carriers?
I've never flown in economy class on the Emirates A380 and so can only compare business class. Frankly, I don't know there is a comparison. Emirates window seats are individual seats with a small minibar, flat beds with tons of leg room, very large tv screens and more entertainment than you could view in a month of Sundays. There are mattresses and duvets for sleeping. The lounges are excellent with virtually full meals being offered and the on-board meals are as good as I've had on any airline. Additionally there is the lounge bar at the back with lots of canapés and premium liqueurs - Grey Goose vodka, XO brandy etc. It's also a very quiet aircraft - upstairs at least.


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If there is an issue with the A380 it may be that whilst articles like the one Surfcrest posted state it can seat up to 800 passengers, almost all airlines configure it for around 500 seats. With the 777-300ER now squeezing in almost 400, it may have lost part of its competitive advantage. But I think I'm right in saying the A380 was never intended to be a longe range aircraft like the latest 777s. It's primarily for hub and spoke operations - as used by Emirates and Qatar.

[frequent]

Except that's doing things the hard way - it's easier to go the other way round the world (via the USA) when travelling from the UK to NZ
Unless you want the bonus of avoiding Americans, their paranoia and xenophobia

[bkkguy]

I don't think the issue is "is bigger really better", it is more "is the A380 really better" and that depends not just on the plane itself but also on the airline, the route and the class of ticket

having just returned from Europe on Emirates business class, the Europe -> Dubai leg was on a 777-300ER and the Dubai -> Bangkok leg was on an A380 and the A380 experience was significantly better for a number of reasons (and both legs were superior to my recent Thai Airways business class experiences (A380 and 777-2/300) but that is another story)

the entertainment system is the same on both Emirates aircraft as is the food quality but I found the business class cabin layout, seat comfort and service much better on the A380 than on the 777-300

the 777 was a 2-3-2 configuration so you were climbing over another passenger if you did not have an isle seat and they had reclined their seat while the A380 had staggered left-right seats so everyone has direct isle access (while superficially similar to Thai's A380 business class layout I found the Emirates seats much more adjustable and more comfortable)

the 777 capsule seat had no decent footrest and was not a fully lay-flat bed, the A30 had real footrest and fully lay-flat bed and much more privacy - and personal storage if you have a window seat

while the A380 cabin is larger than the 777 there are more staff available on the A30 and the way the service is organized means you get your wine WITH your meal etc rather than after you have finished (and they are more generous wine pours than Thai Airways!)

and on the A380 out of Dubai your boarding gate is the business class lounge - you go straight from sipping champagne in the business class lounge till the last minute to sipping champagne in you seat while the plebs in the normal departure gate battle with standard boarding procedures and times

on arrival in Bangkok with priority pass there was only one person ahead of me in the Immigration queue and my business class "priority" checked luggage was already on the carousel when I got there and the provided chauffeur was waiting to whisk me home so "big" was not an issue - I didn't even see the hoi polloi, their luggage or their taxi queue but that is why you pay for business class, but it was a much better arrival experience than I have had on recent Thai Airways business class arrivals into Bangkok regardless or aircraft!

and don't get me started on comparisons between the Thai Airways and Emirates lounges in Bangkok...

Emirates has a number of different 777 and A380 aircraft configurations and different service levels out of different airports (as does Thai Airways) but I think my point still stands - their A380 experience is generally better than their 777 experience - at least in business class - and "big" is not necessarily the main issue

bkkguy

[fountainhall]

the 777 was a 2-3-2 configuration so you were climbing over another passenger if you did not have an isle seat
On this aircraft Qatar wins out. Its 777 biz class is 2+2+2, the seats are fully flat and meals are served when you want them. Etihad also has full flat beds in its various 777 configurations. These three airlies usually start sales covering much of the following year around November. It will be interesting to see who has the cheapest prices.

[bkkguy]

On this aircraft Qatar wins out. Its 777 biz class is 2+2+2

2-3-2 or 2-2-2 if you have a window seat you are still climbing over another passenger if they have extended their seat to a bed

a friend reported that Thai's latest 777-300ER business class is fully lay flat beds as well. Emirates other 777 biz configurations may be better than I experienced, but Emirates only does meals on demand in First Class - but at least their service and the private cabins in first class are the same on both aircraft but the A380 has showers available!

bkkguy

[fountainhall]

2-3-2 or 2-2-2 if you have a window seat you are still climbing over another passenger if they have extended their seat to a bed
True, but on Qatar the space between seats almost equals the length of the flat bed. So there is no seat back in front you have to manoeuvre past as with Emirates. You certainly have do climb over the aisle passenger and hope you will not hit their legs, but the extended seat seems quite low to the ground and I have never had a problem getting in and out without disturbing my neighbour.

[Old git]

Although my car may be 12 years old, with 200k on the clock, I indulge myself by flying biz on flights over 4 hours.

I always make a point of drinking the plane's supply of port to extinction..