Does the King still sign laws or is there a Regent?

[AsDaRa]

In all constitutional monarchies I know about the King/Queen has no power, but still has formal constitutional duties. Like signing laws which parliament agreed about upon. Only then the law can become active. Kings/Queens sign these laws always. (Else there would be a constitutional crisis.)

In Thailand the King has no power. But does anyone know if a Thai law can only become law if signed by the monarch? I assume that to be the case, it is pretty standard. If so, is this very ailing King still signing laws every day? I can't believe it to be honest. But this should mean there must be a Regent now in Thailand? But I never hear anything about that.

[cdnmatt]

Yes, the King technically has royal assent, meaning all laws within Thailand are signed off by him / the monarchy before becoming law of the land. At the same time, for another example, no laws are passed in Canada without the Queen of England signing off of them still.

Nonetheless, dangerous topic to be discussing.

[AsDaRa]

Why dangerous? We just ask how it works in Thailand. This is not an anti-monarchy topic. I love constitutional monarchies and the traditions and pomp associated with it.

If a law legally must be signed by the King it is a normal question to ask if he is still doing that? And if not, who signs then? Shouldn't there be a Regent?

[cdnmatt]

Nothing to do with what you posted specifically. Just it's a slippery slope due to what others may reply with who don't take lese majeste laws into account as seriously as others.

[scottish-guy]

...the Queen of England...

Are you trying to start a fight Matt - or get a job at the Daily Mail? :D

Elizabeth of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (ignoring WW1 name changing jiggery pokery) holds NO such title - she should no more be addressed as "Queen of England" than as "Queen of Canada"

Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith

I could even argue about the Elizabeth the Second part, but I wouldnt dream of derailing a thread :p

[Nirish guy]

Equally then I wonder does the Queen (UK) physically still sign each and every law passed individually and does she just have to sign for just the UK or all laws passed through her entire Realm including Canada etc etc or is that passed down to her governors etc on a daily basis?

I see from a quick Google search that in 2010 alone there were 3500 laws passed, so that's about 10 a day in the UK alone.

So I a wonder does Her Maj ACTUALLY sit and read them all or by the time they get to her have her lackies already read and completed all the paperwork for her and present then for a rubber stamp job ( quite literally ? !) or is she allowed to pile them up and then sign some form of proforma type cover note that basically says "right bugger off, I'm busy Queening so you can consider those last 50 laws you gave me as signed now" so hurry up and bring me another Gin !

In also guessing that whatever neat trick one or other Kings or Queens have worked out over the years to cut down on their work load they've probably shared with each other on the QT too.

[cdnmatt]

No idea about the UK, but in Canada at least there's a Lieutenant Govenor who's appointed by the Royal Family, and they're the one who signs all Canadian laws. And no, the Lieutenant Govenor doesn't even read the laws, and doesn't really have a choice as to whether or not they sign them. It's just there for tradition sake, and doesn't have any legislative meaning.

[Smiles]

" ... no laws are passed in Canada without the Queen of England signing off of them still ... "
I'm assuming you mean that the Governor General signs all parliamentary bills. There is a significance difference, in the sense that for a long time now England has absolutely nothing to do with Canadian governance.
Governors General are chosen within Canada by the Prime Minister and the Privy Council. He/she then runs it by the Queen, but it's purely ornamental .... the Old Girl would never disagree with the PM's choice.

[AsDaRa]

By the way the idea of a Regent for Thailand is a good idea to smooth the transition to the new monarch. The King is still around, so what is the risk creating the crown prince Regent? People will accept it because the beloved King is still King, he is still there.

Edited My consultancy fee is 0 EUR. This is free advice. Because I want Thailand to remain stable.

[arsenal]

Matt: It certainly does have legaslative meaning. Without his/her signature it simply cannot become law without another act of thr Canadian Parliament and even then it would probably require royal assent. Just the same as in the UK. It is one of the checks and balances that meke constitutional monarchies/parliaments so much more stable than Presidencies.

[cdnmatt]

Well, technically it has legislative meaning. Realistically though, not really. It's not like the Lieutenant Governor is ever going to refuse to sign a law that's passed through both houses of parliament.

[arsenal]

It would almost certaily invoke a constitutional crisis and possibly lead to Canada becoming a republic. By the way, if you're interested I can recommend The Audience with Helen Mirren. It portrays the weekly audiences she has had with her Prime Ministers (UK) over her reign and was performed on the London Stage before transferring to Broadway. Not relevant to Canada I know but still worth watching.

[cdnmatt]

But you seem to be under the assumption UK imperialism is still strong, and has power over the governance of Canada, when that's not actually the case. Canada keeps it like it is out of sake of tradition and to show respect for our origins. That's it though. The UK doesn't actually have any power over Canada.

[arsenal]

It's very simple. Royal assent is required for a Canadian parliamentary bill to become Canadian Law. That is the job of a head of state and your head of state is Queen Elizabeth II. None of that implies any belief that the UK dominates or has a say in Canadian affairs. It's the US that does that.

[cdnmatt]

Again, it's there purely for the sake of tradition, and not for legislative means. It's kind of an unspoken agreement -- we keep the UK there for tradition and respect, but there's no actual power available to the UK.

If you don't believe me, convince the Queen to try to refuse to sign a law. Within a month, every Canadian would be walking around with brand new, crisp dollar bills in their wallet that no longer have the Queen's face on them.

[Surfcrest]

Why dangerous? We just ask how it works in Thailand. This is not an anti-monarchy topic. I love constitutional monarchies and the traditions and pomp associated with it.

It's a dangerous topic to discuss here, no matter what you write about the Thai monarchy. Discuss what you will, about signing documents and the constitutional role of a king, but I'll be moderating any discussion that strays towards the family or the king himself.

Surfcrest

[arsenal]

Surfcrest: I would put a total block on any discussion of this nature.

Matt: It is EXACTLY the same system that we have in The UK. And it is there to offer another level of protection to citizens (you and me) from our governments.

[Nirish guy]

Matt I think you're perhaps confusing "the UK" having a say or no say for quaint historical reasons as something different than Arsenal is saying is actually that the UK does NOT have ANY role or influence over Canadian law. however Queen Elizabeth the Second most certainly does - but NOT as I think you're implying as she still represents the UK in some way but merely by the way that she IS YOUR Queen too - and that is of course in a totally separate way from her role here in the UK as when it comes to Canadian law issues she is YOUR queen and your queen only.

The fact that she also happens to be our Queen here in the UK is just a happy coincidence ( depending on one's view point as a republican of course or not I guess) and just for the record a republican I am not as I think in general our ( and your) Queen continues to do a great job for her subjects.

[Old git]

"It's a dangerous topic to discuss here, no matter what you write about the Thai monarchy."

+ 1

Edited
It is certainly unwise for the farang community to debate this subject, so I would strongly suggest locking this thread or deleting it.

[Magnum]

"It's a dangerous topic to discuss here, no matter what you write about the Thai monarchy."

+ 1

When in Thailand I would never say a single word about the king. This is a gay related forum and the moderator should block all topics related to the King of Thailand. And this topic is uninteresting anyway.

[AsDaRa]

And this topic is uninteresting anyway.

This remark says a lot about you. Your intelligence for example. Anyone with some interest in how things work, how the world operates, why things are as they are, how things came into being, would be very interested to know the answer to the question of this topic. Only people who never read a book, only seek pleasure in live, don't think deep, for which history has zero interest (in short: dumb people) can make a remark like the one you made about the question in this topic. Shame on you.

I think the question is very good and should have been asked before. I am curious to know how it works behind the scenes. As should anyone with a brain.

[Nirish guy]

And this topic is uninteresting anyway.

I think perhaps you maybe forgot to add the words "to me" at the end of your post there maybe as it seems others who don't share your view seem to be posting and contributing as normal - and those who may also have found it uninteresting have no doubt had the very good sense just moved on past it......And yet there you still took time out to comment it seems.......how queer.

[scottish-guy]

What do u expect from an Ice Cream

[Up2U]

From the recently the voted on draft constitution, the relevant sections regarding the King:

Section 16 Whenever the King is absent from the Kingdom or unable to perform His functions for any reason whatsoever, the King will appoint a person as the Regent and the President of the National Assembly shall countersign the Royal Command.  Referenced by: § 17, 18, 19, 22

Section 17 In the case where the King does not appoint the Regent under Section 16, or the King is unable to appoint the Regent owing to His not being sui juris or any other reason whatsoever, the Privy Council shall submit the name of a person suitable to hold the office of the Regent to the National Assembly for approval. Upon approval by the National Assembly, the President of the National Assembly shall make an announcement, in the name of the King, to appoint such person as the Regent.  Referenced by: § 18, 19, 22, 23, 126, 156

Section 18 While there is no Regent under Section 16 or Section 17, the President of the Privy Council shall be Regent pro tempore. In the case where the Regent appointed under Section 16 or Section 17 is unable to perform his duties, the President of the Privy Council shall act as Regent pro tempore. While being the Regent under Paragraph One or acting as the Regent under Paragraph Two, the President of the Privy Council shall not perform his duties as President of the Privy Council. In such case, the Privy Council shall select a Privy Councilor to act as President of the Privy Council pro tempore.  Referenced by: § 22, 23

Section 19 Before taking office, the Regent appointed under Section 16 or Section 17 shall make a solemn declaration before the National Assembly in the following words: “I, (name of the declarer), do solemnly declare that I will be loyal to His Majesty the King (name of the King) and will faithfully perform my duties in the interests of the country and of the people. I will further uphold and observe the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand in every respect.”  Referenced by: § 126, 156

Section 20 Subject to Section 21, the succession to the Throne shall be in accordance with the Palace Law on Succession, B.E. 2467. The Amendment of the Palace Law on Succession, B.E. 2467 shall be the prerogative of the King. At the initiative of the King, the Privy Council shall draft the Palace Law Amendment and shall present it to the King for His consideration. When the King has approved the draft Palace Law amendment and put His signature thereon, the President of the Privy Council shall notify the President of the National Assembly for informing the National Assembly. The President of the National Assembly shall countersign the Royal Command and the Palace Law Amendment shall come into force upon its publication in the Government Gazette.  Referenced by: § 21, 126, 156

Section 21 In the case where the Throne becomes vacant and the King has already appointed His Heir to the Throne under the Palace Law on Succession, B.E. 2467, the Council of Ministers shall notify the President of the National Assembly. The President of the National Assembly shall convoke the National Assembly for the acknowledgement thereof, and shall invite such Heir to ascend the Throne and proclaim such Heir the King. Afterwards, the President of the National Assembly shall declare to keep the people informed. Under the circumstance where the Throne becomes vacant and the King has not appointed His Heir under Paragraph One, the Privy Council shall submit the name of the Successor to the Throne under Section 20 to the Council of Ministers for further submission to the National Assembly for approval. For this purpose, the name of a Princess may be submitted. Upon the approval of the case, the Privy Council shall select a Privy Councilor to act as President of the Privy Council pro tempore.  Referenced by: § 22, 23

Section 22 While pending the proclamation of the name of the Heir or the Successor to the Throne under Section 21, the President of the Privy Council shall be Regent pro tempore. In the event where the Throne becomes vacant while the Regent has been appointed under Section 16 or Section 17 or while the President of the Privy Council is acting as the Regent under Section 18 Paragraph One, such Regent, as the case may be, shall continue to be the Regent until the proclamation of the name of the Heir or the Successor to ascend the Throne as the King. In the case where the Regent who has been appointed and continues to be the Regent under Paragraph One is unable to perform his duties, the President of the Privy Council shall act as Regent pro tempore. In the case where the President of the Privy Council is the Regent under Paragraph One or acts as Regent pro tempore under Paragraph Two, the provisions of Section 18 Paragraph Three shall apply.  Referenced by: § 23

Section 23 In the event where the Privy Council will have to perform its duties under Section 17 or Section 21 Paragraph Two, or the President of the Privy Council will have to be or perform duties of the Regent pursuant to Section 18 Paragraph One or Paragraph Two or Section 22 Paragraph Two, and during that period there is no President of the Privy Council or the President of the Privy Council is unable to perform his duties, the remaining Privy Councilors shall elect one among themselves to act as President of the Privy Council or to be or perform duties of the Regent according to Section 18 Paragraph One or Paragraph Two or Section 22 Paragraph Two, as the case may be. Section 24 In taking an oath of allegiance before the King pursuant to the Constitution or law, the King may endorse that it be carried out before His sui juris Heir or His representative. While the oath of allegiance under Paragraph One is not yet taken, His Majesty may endorse the person having to take the oath of allegiance to perform duties pro tempore.

[fountainhall]

This remark says a lot about you . . . I am curious to know how it works behind the scenes. As should anyone with a brain.
And your remark says a great deal about you and your total lack of knowledge and understanding of how things work in Thailand. You know the old adage - curiosity killed the cat? You are getting close to being squashed. If you don't understand why, read up some of the articles on the issue on the internet. You being outside Thailand can do that. This subject is akin to treading on eggshells and the thread should be locked in my view.

[frequent]

They don't need the physical presence any more do they? They just parade in front of an oversize portratit

[Smiles]

Well, technically it has legislative meaning. Realistically though, not really. It's not like the Lieutenant Governor is ever going to refuse to sign a law that's passed through both houses of parliament.
For christ sake Mat, will you PLEASE get it right.
It's the Governor General who signs federal legislation (and his/her's is in fact the last signature needed. The Queen is out of the picture and has been or ages).
Why do you keep insisting ~ by now, ad nauseum ~ on throwing the word "Lieutenant" into the mix? The Canadian part of this thread ~ off-topic that it is ~ was put into play by yourself and you were talking about the Federal Government, not the Provincial Govt ... the only government body which has use of a Lieutenant Governor.

If you can't get it right when discussing a very simple government structure which Canada has, then you probably should think again when adding your two cents to a thread which is all about a chaotic, complicated, and head-shaking structure such as Thailand's.

[cdnmatt]

Someone sure is grumpy about an honest mistake / mix up.

[Smiles]

Someone sure is grumpy about an honest mistake / mix up.
Can you blame me? Here's a copy/quote of your quite-wrong musings in this thread:


" ... no laws are passed in Canada without the Queen of England signing off of them still...."
Which is absolutely wrong, but ...

THEN, you wrote this classic turn-on-a-dime Trumpism:

" ... The UK doesn't actually have any power over Canada ... "

AND AFTER THAT: carrying on with the incorrect designation of the of The Governor, not once, but two more times.


" ... in Canada at least there's a Lieutenant Governor who's appointed by the Royal Family ... "


" ... Well, technically it has legislative meaning. Realistically though, not really. It's not like the Lieutenant Governor is ever going to refuse to sign a law that's passed through both houses of parliament ... "

And all this in a thread about a Thailand government structure.

[cdnmatt]

So does this mean the romantic dinner date I had planned for us is cancelled now?

[Smiles]

So does this mean the romantic dinner date I had planned for us is cancelled now?
I don't have to cancel it. I just know you won't show up. Or your mobile phone fell in the klong. Or you forgot. :kiss: