For those that knew him Dow from Sunee, Tam Nam Issan and Morlem Concerts etc died today :-(

[Nirish guy]

For those that knew him just a quick message to pass on that Dow who over the years frequented Sunee and boys town bars, both working and socially and was also a dancer in Tam Nam Issan and of late ran and worked at the bars at many of the Morlem Concerts in Pattaya etc died today - and on his Birthday too no less :-(

Dow was always the life and soul of any party and he and I spent many happy nights out on the town together drinking and partying like crazy. He'll be missed by many of his friends in Pattaya.

And the saddest part is that his death could so easily have been avoided just by simple early detection and then a medicinal intervention to treat his illness but alas as we hear all to often in Pattaya it seems still things were left until that moment to help had passed. So sad and so unnecessary. RIP Dow.
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[catawampuscat]

Always sad to hear of young men dying well before their time.

[anonone]

Thanks for passing on the news, NIrish.
I didn't know him, but always feel saddened by the death of one so young.

Hopefully you are doing OK. My condolences on the passing of your friend.

[Nirish guy]

Thanks Anon, Dow was a genuine friend rather than a love interest and we spent many drunken nights talking about his future plans ( he had many) and he was one of the smarter boys on the block and was putting money away for that future and I'm amazed ( but maybe not surprised) that his life ended so quickly, especially as he was normally fully aware of the dangers surrounding living in Pattaya etc and yes its always sad, especially when a death was so avoidable if medication had of been sought ( earlier) perhaps. However as Im sure we've all experienced at one time or another it's so much more frustrating and sad whenever that Thai logic of "oh well I'm sick now so there's no point doing much or anything about it now as sure it'll be fine, I'll be back shortly anyway again in my next life" - I guess at SOME level to have that faith and to believe it must be a wonderful thing - I guess :-(

[scottish-guy]

I've tried about 3 or 4 times to respond to this thread but each time I have deleted my draft, so I'm going to have to settle for saying this:

Some very stark photographs which remind me of how fragile life can be, and yet another tragic end to a young life.

I feel for NIrish too, as he was obviously close to this boy.

I personally have been quick to think that some working boys I have known are smart enough to look after themselves (and that can mean many things because of the many dangers that confront them) - but the reality is that if they were that smart they wouldn't still be in that line of business. My own observation has been that for every 1 that goes on to make something of himself there are countless others who literally didnt survive because of disease, suicide, violence, or misadventure brought on by alcohol/drugs/chaotic lifestyles.

As for the lack of an early diagnosis in this case, I understand what NIrish says about the Buddist acceptance of the inevitable, but I think its also easy to overlook the biggest factors which are IGNORANCE, FEAR, and STIGMA. Even amongst my own age group I find many people who have never had an HIV test for fear of a +ve result, the stigma that they believe would follow should others learn of that status, and ignorance of the fact that (in our countries at least) very effective treatment is available.

If mature people whom I regard as otherwise sensible and educated can hold those fears and attitudes whilst living in a first world country, then it's easy to imagine how it plays with younger and possibly less well-educated people in countries with a less developed public health system and practically no support services for those diagnosed as HIV+

By the way, I had intended to finish this post after line 3! Maybe I should have. :cray_mini:

[fountainhall]

Even amongst my own age group I find many people who have never had an HIV test for fear of a +ve result, the stigma that they believe would follow should others learn of that status, and ignorance of the fact that (in our countries at least) very effective treatment is available.
I lived in fear of HIV tests in the years before anti-retrovirals when an HIV diagnosis meant death for all but a very, very few. For those in so called first world countries to have any sort of fear now is surely quite shocking. For in not knowing their own status, how many inadvertently pass on the virus to others? Despite the fear of stigma, it is an immensely selfish failure to act.

I know of one boy who used to work in one of the Bangkok bars who has been in and out of hospital for some time. He will not say what is wrong but he definitely has one major STD. Sadly he is one of the "countless others" Scottish mentions - and he is still not 25. In his case he rarely drank alcohol, did not take drugs and enjoyed a fairly stable lifestyle living with his mother. I can only hope he survives whatever is really wrong with him. But he looks terrible in his photos. It is all so sad!

[scottish-guy]

I accept all that you say Founty and it's all very sensible - but in defence of the friends and acquaintancies I am referring to I would have to say that they are from an age when if you felt all right then you just got on with things. I'm not saying that's right, it's just the way they are.

Further, in almost all cases the only sexual congress that takes place is cock to hand - so it's their own health they are risking.

But yes, the sensible thing is to get tested and treated if necessary.

I'm dismayed to hear about this boy in BKK - but if it's HIV he is suffering from it illustrates the shame he feels and the stigma he fears when he cant even confide in someone thousands of miles away. Can I ask what convinces you that its STD related rather than just run of the mill illness?

:confused:

[anonone]

Thanks Anon, Dow was a genuine friend rather than a love interest and we spent many drunken nights talking about his future plans ( he had many) and he was one of the smarter boys on the block and was putting money away for that future and I'm amazed ( but maybe not surprised) that his life ended so quickly, especially as he was normally fully aware of the dangers surrounding living in Pattaya etc and yes its always sad, especially when a death was so avoidable if medication had of been sought ( earlier) perhaps. However as Im sure we've all experienced at one time or another it's so much more frustrating and sad whenever that Thai logic of "oh well I'm sick now so there's no point doing much or anything about it now as sure it'll be fine, I'll be back shortly anyway again in my next life" - I guess at SOME level to have that faith and to believe it must be a wonderful thing - I guess :-(

Maybe a wonderful thing for that person, but very hard on those in their life.

I won't pretend to understand the Thai mind. As hard as I try, I am not sure I ever will. But I do appreciate all the time I have spent with all my Thai friends. And I like to think they rub off on me a little to "not think so much". LOL and maybe I rub off a little on them to think they can change their own future.

Keep strong, my friend.

[latintopxxx]

scotty...very well written, brought a lump to my throat and made me a little teary eyed. I too can't understand why someone who had his wits about him failed to access the required medical assistance which as far as i understand is easily available and affordable even for working class Thais.

[arsenal]

It's not just the Thais is it. I remember that Steve Jobs thought he could beat cancer with some unusual treatments. By the time he realised he couldn't it was too late.

[fountainhall]

Can I ask what convinces you that its STD related rather than just run of the mill illness?
Second stage syphillis, but there are other symptoms which he will not discuss.

[newalaan2]

For those that knew him just a quick message to pass on that Dow who over the years frequented Sunee and boys town bars, both working and socially and was also a dancer in Tam Nam Issan and of late ran and worked at the bars at many of the Morlem Concerts in Pattaya etc died today - and on his Birthday too no less :-(

And the saddest part is that his death could so easily have been avoided just by simple early detection and then a medicinal intervention to treat his illness, So sad and so unnecessary. RIP Dow.
Very sorry to hear this, despite being a regular in sunee I didn't know Dow, probably did see him at some time over the years as I usually visit anything to do with morlam. The very sad and frustrating part is knowing that it could have been helped and avoided.


second stage syphilis
It may just be visits regarding second stage only and possibly nothing esle, as the damage if not treated early gets very serious indeed. I did post a while ago in a thread titled 'how often do YOU get tested' about an older westerner/farang who visits Pattaya regulary for a few months at a time and missed the first sign of his syphilis infection picked up in Pattaya and didn't get it attended to until he returned home between visits.

He does read this forum and gave me the go ahead to post (as a couple of other trusted expats know of his infection) about it as warning to others. I too was ignorant of the seriousness of the infection....until he gave me the details....if not detected in first stage (like many I just expected that there would be enough symptoms to detect it) which he didn't. He said on hindsight there were slight symptoms but he put them down to 'something else' instead of going to an STI clinic. The second stage seriously damages liver, eyes, ears (hearing), skin and especially neuro/nervous system function and on to other organs which requires serious medication sometimes with permanent damage left. He is still being treated months later requiring multiple visits with no guarantee of full recovery. It might be the same with the boy you know, which at 25 years old is very sad indeed.

[anonone]

Very sorry to hear this, despite being a regular in sunee I didn't know Dow, probably did see him at some time over the years as I usually visit anything to do with morlam. The very sad and frustrating part is knowing that it could have been helped and avoided.
.

I am sure you had, newalaan.
I was going through some old photos this morning and actually came across several with Dow in them. Taken at TNI.
I don't recall speaking with him much...if at all...but he was certainly around quite a bit.

Sad.

[loke]

A lot of boys still die of HIV in this country .
When your income depends on sex they are all at risk , but still surprised that many boys still take the risks of having unprotected sex in 2016.

[scottish-guy]

(The need for) income is obviously a factor - this is why they do the job - but it ought to be obvious to any boy that long-term income depends on retaining the capacity to work by keeping healthy, but it seems not to occur to many of them and they indulge in needlessly risky behaviour. Why?

I don't offer these suggestions in any particular order, and I don't suggest my list is exhaustive. I just put them up for comment:

a) Ignorance
b) Youth makes you think you're invincible
c) Low self-esteem/psychological problems
d) Most working boys envisage prostitution as only a short-term proposition. They don't realise that they may become trapped in prostitution. They believe "something will turn up" - be it a benevolent farang who will take them away from it all or (more likely?) a win on the lottery. They stupidly reason they won't be doing this work long so any risk is reduced.
e) A customer offers more money for unprotected sex and the boy takes the bait - the customer may unknowing be HIV+
f) Related to d) I'll be frank/controversial - fact is there ARE farangs out there who know they are HIV+ and think nothing of passing it on and even doing so deliberately. The fact that he can afford treatment and will almost certainly survive to old age while the boy he's infected will probably remain undetected and die by 25 or 30, matters nothing to such a person

:confused:

[francois]

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. Matthew 7:1

Before judging others such as Dow or any Thai guys first take a look at ourselves and ask if we did not indulge in risky behavior. Have all of you gotten your Hep A & B vaccines; HPV vaccine; Flu shots, etc? Driven drunk?

It is time to mourn Dow not to fault him.

[fountainhall]

In recent posts, I have not seen anyone judging the poor young man who died, merely general comments re how those working in the sex trade could pick up HIV and other STDs if they don't take care. But we know some don't take care. And we must be reasonably certain there are tourists taking them off who are indeed HIV+ . Whether they know they are positive or not is really somewhat immaterial, although I believe it should be made a crime for an HIV+ guy to have bb sex with anyone - whatever extra cash is offered.

Sure, I think all of us have made our mistakes and indulged in risky behaviour at some time in our lives. How many take motocys without wearing a helmet? A large number, including me! But as loke pointed out, I'm certain a lot of the boys take greater risks than necessary to ensure a steady flow of income. And as we know from statistics, the number of msm in Bangkok alone (not necessarily barboys) who are HIV+ is close to 25%. That is a frightening number which should scream at visitors that sex without protection is not just risky, it is monstrously risky. We have also to remember - as has been pointed out in previous posts - that the degree of bb sex that seems to go on amongst young guys not much older than 18 in many of the more recent Thai-for-Thai saunas away from the city centre seems frighteningly high. Given the level of risk, it's clear in my view that a lot more needs to be done nationwide in sex education. But I don't hold out much hope!

[TaoR]

There has been a dramatic rise (50%)in the number of Aids/STD cases among people age 15 to 24 while overall there has been a drop (-20%)in the number of Aids/STD cases for all age groups (2005 - 2014).

So, obviously, its not just the "Thai" mindset that is the problem.

[francois]

My only point is to mourn the deceased as posted by NIrishguy not to point fingers.

Yes, his death is a sad but the cause of his death is another topic to be discussed and posted separately.

[scottish-guy]

Well, it must vary from country to country to some extent, because the latest UK data (2014) shows that the highest rate of new infections is found in the age groups 25-34 (33%) and 35-44 (26%).

The 15-24 age group accounts for "only" 12% - so I'd like to believe that in the UK at least, the youngsters are getting the message.

Francois, I must apologise if I in any way gave the impression that I was "blaming" anybody who contracts HIV - far from it - I have certainly indulged in risky behaviour in the past (usually booze has been involved) and I am certainly not the one to "first cast a stone" if we are in biblical mode

[TaoR]

It does vary from country to country (and of course we can also assume that the UK puts a lot of money and effort into Aids awareness than Thailand does) and also my data came from AVERT.org and was for the period of 2005 to 2014 rather than a single year.

In the United States (which I would like to believe is a "developed" nation but sometimes I wonder if it is not becoming an "undeveloping" nation) the 13 to 29 year old group saw an increase in Aids infection and accounted for 39% of all new Aids cases in the USA.

When you hear about a young man dying of sexually transmitted diseases in another country we always try to "understand" and or "explain" the loss by coming up with some sort of "explanation" when there really isn't one....

[fountainhall]

So, obviously, its not just the "Thai" mindset that is the problem.
I agree - and take the point that the statistics from other countries are not good either. My 25% (more precisely 24.4%) figure also comes from Avert on its latest update of July this year. But surely 24.4% has to be a huge number that is way higher than most countries outside sub-Saharan Africa? And Avert confirms it is the young Thai guys who are now most at risk -


Prevention programmes also haven’t reached as many young MSM (compared to older MSM) meaning they are less likely to know where to obtain an HIV a test, or understand their risk.9 (http://www.avert.org/professionals/hiv-around-world/asia-pacific/thailand#footnote9_wzykt8f) Even when HIV prevention is good and people are aware of the risks, there’s often a low risk perception among young men who have sex with men. This, alongside multi-partner sex fuelled by performance enhancing drugs, can result in low condom use
http://www.avert.org/professionals/hiv-around-world/asia-pacific/thailand