Apartheid/Separate but equal.

[arsenal]

I'm in the mood for a rumbustious controversial topic so I'm going to start one. Separate but equal (the system deployed in the US until the 60s required not only acts by the Supreme Court but a virtual mini civil war (and the national guard) to get rid of and Apartheid only ended in the early 90s with the release of Nelson Mandela.

Well, they're coming back, in fact keep it quiet but they're already here. I'm talking about the Chinese. It was actually the thread on GB about restaurant peeves that got me thinking about this.
http://gaybuttonthai.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7888

Unless you have experienced their behaviour in full flow and totally undiluted then you're not qualified to fully appreciate how awful they truly are. All of the peeves mentioned in the thread (at the time of my writing this) are taken to the ultimate level when they go to a restaurant. Think six grown women screaming at the selection of cheesecake in a coffee shop, think a barely able to stand drunk bellowing into a microphone while you're trying to eat a bacon burger. And that's Chinese behaviour lite. I'm still in first gear but I can go to cruise control if necessary.

The hotel where I stay puts any Chinese tourists on separate floors from everyone else because they simply have no concept of noise and will happily have a loud conversation right outside your door. Indeed many of them speak considerably louder than the average person can shout and a few have voices that literally vibrate through you. Almost a weapon. Oh yes and they have taken away the chairs from the rooms they stay in because the Chinese used them for......and the kettles too because they want to eat instant noodles and stink the place out.

On a physical note (and this is not their fault but it is a fact) Chinese womens' hair is so thick that it falls out constantly and that's why nearly all public swimming pools insist on wearing bathing caps. So when going to the water parks will you go on the Chinese day when bathing caps must be worn or do you wait until it's a non-Chinese day when it's not necessary?

So my point is that businesses will start to keep them away from everyone else as much as possible and perhaps at some point in the future there will be hotels/restaurants for Chinese only and those that do not accept Chinese guests. And then YOU dear member are going to have the moral dilemma of your fucking life. Do you refuse to patronise an establishment that has a policy that we all abhor. In which case you will have to put up with them. Or do you put your dearly held principles (perhaps you marched, boycotted etc) on hold so that you can relax, enjoy your trip and not feel like you are in a human zoo. This is something you are going to have to face so you might like to start thinking about it now.

[AsDaRa]

I have not much experience with Chinese tourists, but if the above is true of the huge majority of them then I would go to non-Chinese facilities only.

Concerning noise: I do have issues with that on many trips. People in front of your hotel room talking loud around say 2 am. They can be of any ethnicity. Some people just lack decency. Lack the ability to think about others, like about guests now sleeping.

Same with people on these escalators (I mean these rolling stairs) who block entry for people who want to walk down. If you want to stand still on such an escalator stand right. Keep left side free for people who want to walk down. Some people just don't think about it. Their mind is not wired to take others into account. Like people who start chatting with woman on counter of supermarket while a whole queue is behind them. I try to be as fast as possible. Etc etc.

Sadly many people are not wired to be descent.

[fountainhall]

I know what arsenal means, even though, talking at the tops of their very loud voices apart, I have been insulated from the worst of the behaviour by being based in Hong Kong rather than the mainland before moving to Bangkok. Also, on many visits to various parts of mainland China - and not just the centres of the main cities - I have rarely seen anything as bad as arsenal describes (but I have no doubt what arsenal describes is correct). Visiting one of the most popular National Parks at Jiuzhaigou the worst of the behaviour seemed to be a total lack of any understanding of queuing. But then I saw that so many times at Suvarnabhumi when invading Russians always jumped queues. I am well aware that people in Hong Kong are getting sick and tired with the behaviour of many mainland tourists. They are trying to get the number of tour groups reduced, even though they are very happy to take the money they spend!

I wonder where arsenal lives in China and why, given his obvious continuing aversion to local habits, he has stayed there for so many years? I've lived in three Asian countries and was lucky to enjoy each, despite occasional dislikes. I have a friend who has spent quite a few years teaching at schools in three cities in central China. He is perfectly happy there and has had a long-term boyfriend from one of the big coastal cities for more than 6 years. He has never once complained about any of the local conditions

On the matter of a sort of cultural apartheid, I suspect that deep down many of us feel more or less the same way about certain other nationalities or ethnic groups. I know that I will not take certain airlines because I would prefer to be with a more mixed group of passengers. There are also some countries I just will not visit. But then I wonder - is a hotel having floors for Chinese and floors for non-Chinese actually an example of "apartheid"? If the owner of a hotel has decided to do that for business reasons, that to me is not the same as a politically enforced separation applicable everywhere and backed by law.

[christianpfc]

I encounter tourists that look Chinese and speak a language that sounds like Chinese to me in the streets of Bangkok and in public transport. So far, I can't say anything bad about them. But I haven't been in a restaurant or hotel with them.

[arsenal]

Fountainhall: Fair question. Well I have business interests here and financially it is the right place to be at the moment. To succeed in business in China all you have to do is offer them something that we, in the west have and like. They will buy it. I was very vary careful when I wrote the piece to only include absolute facts. I am also sure you are aware that the government has produced a (thickish) booklet telling Chinese tourists abroad how to behave.

In the interests of balance I will also add that there is nothing malicious about the Chinese, their behaviour is disgusting and horrible, but they, as people are not. Not only that but in terms of safety and lack of crime China is as good as it gets.

[Oliver]

Three or four years ago it was the Russians; now it's the Chinese.
What they have in common is that many of the groups consisted (or consist) of first time tourists, beneficiaries of the economic up-turns in their respective countries. Some of the Russians I saw in Central, for example, had little idea how to deal with Thais, often looming over them and making the women particularly uncomfortable. My suspicion is that many of the Chinese have not been abroad before and like the British package toruists of the 70s when that industry "took off" have yet to learn how to conduct themselves in a foreign country. Come to think of it, some of my countrymen still don't how to believe in the places like Soi 6.
The Chinese tourists I see here in London- a much more expensive trip- are seasoned travellers and present no such problems as far as I can see. They happily spend vast amounts in Harrods and Fortnum & Mason's and behave just like any other rich tourists.
In Chiang Mai, on the other hand, much closer to home and therefore much cheaper for the Chinese visitor, the conduct of one guide and his group in a temple my boyfriend and I were in last January was astonishingly ignorant and insulting to Thais. Less significant-perhaps even slightly amusing- our hotel in Bali a few months ago was used as an overnight stop-off for Chinese groups and the noise at breakfast (they'd left by dinner) was astonishingly noisy.
Its 'possible that these problems- and I've heard more complaints from Chiang Mai than Pattaya- will lessen as the visitors become more experienced in foreign travel. Not that this has improved the behaviour of some of my countrymen when confronted by cheap women and cheap booze.

[arsenal]

China had two bloody revolutions in under 50 years, were occupied by the Japanese and then got Mao and his communist madness including several famines and the horrors of the cultural revolution. Then they went from bicycles to BMWs in 20 years so it's not surprising that as a nation they're quite unhinged. However that doesn't make their behaviour any easier to deal with.

[Nirish guy]

For the sake of transparency and openess and honesty I fell I must declare with regard to escalators - bollox to the people who want to walk down them, I don't and won't "stand to the right".

It's a fucking escalator, taking approximately 15 seconds to descend if someone's THAT busy or late in their lives that they feel they have the right to try and shove past me, invading my personal space on a 3 foot wide escalator then they should have gotten out of their beds 5 minutes earlier that day.

And I don't think I have ever witnessed someone ACTUALLY missing their tube train because of this, no, it's more usually a case of some self important prick who's pushed and shoved their way right past 30 other people, causing drama all all round them as they are SO busy and important that everyone must "move to the right" for them, only for us all to end up standing on the same train anyway ! Or the only result is them getting a seat where the other people quietly "queuing" on the escalator are left to stand.

It should be noted that London Underground are now running "no standing to the right" days on certain lines as they've realised and tests have been carried out showing that there's absolutely no time benefit to be gained from this practice and in fact they've established that it may in fact slow the movement of the larger number of passengers down just to suit that one person. So no, mind the gap I will do, but move to the right, na, you can just wait the the extra 5 seconds you think it'll save you, the wait won't kill you :-)

[cdnmatt]

Geez NIrsh, pretty strong feelings about escalators. :)

When driving down the highway, do you also sit in the fast lane going 30km/h?

[Moses]

It's a fucking escalator, taking approximately 15 seconds to descend if someone's THAT busy or late in their lives that they feel they have the right to try and shove past me, invading my personal space on a 3 foot wide escalator then they should have gotten out of their beds 5 minutes earlier that day.

And I don't think I have ever witnessed someone ACTUALLY missing their tube train because of this, no, it's more usually a case of some self important prick who's pushed and shoved their way right past 30 other people, causing drama all all round them as they are SO busy and important that everyone must "move to the right" for them, only for us all to end up standing on the same train anyway ! Or the only result is them getting a seat where the other people quietly "queuing" on the escalator are left to stand.

It should be noted that London Underground are now running "no standing to the right" days on certain lines as they've realised and tests have been carried out showing that there's absolutely no time benefit to be gained from this practice and in fact they've established that it may in fact slow the movement of the larger number of passengers down just to suit that one person. So no, mind the gap I will do, but move to the right, na, you can just wait the the extra 5 seconds you think it'll save you, the wait won't kill you :-)

In some busy metro system is obligatory to walk by escalator. For example: here in Moscow you can stay only at right side and must walk at left side of escalator. If you stay at right side then you must to leave clear left side of escalator for walkers. I suppose the same is in China. So they just do what they think is normal.

[arsenal]

Zero empathy. So everyone carries on as if they are the only person around. They don't see what you see, they don't hear what you hear and they don't think the way you think. And everyone has to get absolutely everywhere in a frantic hurry.

[Nirish guy]

Geez NIrsh, pretty strong feelings about escalators. :)

When driving down the highway, do you also sit in the fast lane going 30km/h?

Ha yes the escalator thing boils my bap as we say here in N.I ( drives me crazy :-) and no, I'm normally the one behind the guy who's already sitting in the fast land ( t's actually the overtaking lane SIR not the fast lane as a police man once informed me) whilst I flash the other guy going "would you ever move the fuck over I'm in a hurry" - me, totally hypocritical and contradictory - NEVER :-) Although to be fair I do see that as to different things as when on the tube we're all going for the same train/s so it's not like he's to be somewhere before you so why the need to push past. Basically I'm just not very good with authority and people telling me what to do it seems :-)

[arsenal]

Push past you NIrish. Annoy you did it? Well just be grateful you didn't receive a sharp jab in the back to let you know you were in his way. Chinese women do use this method. They really do.

[Nirish guy]

And I assure you he'd of got a swift elbow in his ribs right back at him, if not more for trying that in the first place AND be made to stand behind me right until the bottom of the escalator AND I'd of been sure to get on the train before him and bag the last seat just to wind the arrogant fucker up too :-)

[fountainhall]

For the sake of transparency and openess and honesty I fell I must declare with regard to escalators - bollox to the people who want to walk down them, I don't and won't "stand to the right".

It's a fucking escalator, taking approximately 15 seconds to descend if someone's THAT busy or late in their lives that they feel they have the right to try and shove past me, invading my personal space on a 3 foot wide escalator then they should have gotten out of their beds 5 minutes earlier that day.
I entirely disagree! I do think it's you who are being selfish in this instance. What right do you have to block others on an escalator?

You seem to be talking about one escalator in one location. You forget that in a large shopping mall in Bangkok like Central Chidlom there are 6 escalators all but linked and that some people take all 6 to get to the ground floor. So the total time saved by walking down is a great deal more than just a few seconds! And in Moscow and St. Petersburg, some of the escalators are amongst the longest in the world with again a much greater time saving. I'll be interested to know if you also stand like that on the moving walkways at airports? I landed at BKK a week ago and my flight parked at the furthest gate from immigration. I believe it took 8 moving walkways to cover that distance. In an airport, my priority is similar to that of most - get to Immigration fast to avoid longer queues. So when a mob of people block a walkway, I loudly say "Excuse me!" and that will usually open up an empty space. Do you just stand there on the walkways at airports?

In Hong Kong, Taiwan and Japan there is a much greater understanding that one side is for those who just wish to stand and the other is for those who wish to walk. To me that is absolutely sensible and I believe (although I have no proof) that this has to get more people to the end of the escalator/walkway more quickly which is surely what is needed, especially during a rush hour on the London underground. If it's free-for-all or everyone just stands, the London Underground tests just cannot have come to the conclusion that there is no such benefit. That makes zero sense.

[Oliver]

It's quite simple here in London; stand on the right and allow passage on the left. I use the system every week and it works. Those that stand in twos and threes are blocking the rest of us.

[goji]

Some form of voluntary apartheid works well in Pattaya.

I carefully look for a hotel likely to be populated by mature people, preferable mature single males.
That way I'm unlikely to be kept awake by young Russian/Arab/British/etc partying all night or by squeaky Chinese women. If they all want to go to a different hotel that accepts all night noise, that is just fine.

[francois]

There is a significant difference between escalators which move people vertically and moving walkways which move horizontally. I understand and follow the protocol on moving walkways by standing to the side designated for standees. But never heard or knew there was a similar protocol for escalators. There are good reasons for not having such a rule.
For instance, in transportation hubs many persons have luggage with them which makes it difficult when on an escalator whereby the luggage may be next to you, in back of you or in front of you. To have someone try to squeeze by creates a hazard by dislodging the luggage.
Secondly the steps on escalators are not meant for walking but for standing. The thread to rise ratio is not the same as for stairs which is why stopped escalators feel odd when walking up or down them. People trying to walk down an escalator are putting themselves (and everyone else) at risk due to chance of a misstep and falling especially when in a rush.
So, my 2 Bahts worth of comment.

[cdnmatt]

Only on SGT could we have a debate about proper escalator etiquette. ;)

[fountainhall]

For instance, in transportation hubs many persons have luggage with them which makes it difficult when on an escalator whereby the luggage may be next to you, in back of you or in front of you. To have someone try to squeeze by creates a hazard by dislodging the luggage.
Respectfully, Francois, I don't see any difference between escalators and moving walkways! If you don't expect people to walk on escalators, why expect to them to walk on a moving walkway? On a moving escalator in an airport, train station or subway (including the London underground), I always put my luggage on the step above or below (even rarely above AND below) to allow the other line to walk up or down easily - and on almost every occasion, people have always been walking up and down. Never once has anyone tripped over my luggage. Indeed, in decades of travel I have never once seen anyone trip over. I see lots of other people doing that too. It works perfectly well. The only time I have seen a slight accident was at the end of one of the moving downwards walkways at BKK leading to the taxi level. One confused woman with two heavily loaded trolleys, one in front and one at back, did not realise she had to push down on the first trolley to make it move again once it reached the bottom. The result was the baggage fell over. Instead of getting out of the way she stayed in position to put her luggage back which inevitably resulted in those behind bumping in to her. These types of walkways with just single line access are potentially the really dangerous ones!

If you look at the start of escalators and walkways in some countries, there is actually a sign advising people who ride on them to stand on the right - even with a logo showing how to keep young children in front of you - not at the side.

[aussie_]

There is no need to block an escalator lane with or without luggage. After staying in Taipei many times and Hong Kong it annoys me greatly when I visit Thailand,Malaysia, Australia etc and the left lane is blocked.There should be a left lane police and fine the ignorant, inconsiderate escalator hogs :)But seriously is it so difficult not to block the left lane?

I try to book decent hotels to avoid problems with other guests. I am currently staying at Bandara Suites in Bangkok and there is a herd of Malaysian kids running around yelling in the hallways. I can hear them and their parents from their room at the other end of the building. The problem of inconsiderate people is increasing from my observations of full time travel the past two years.

[francois]

Can't say I ever saw any sign on an escalator advising people to stand to one side.Actually never seen anyone trying to walk/run down a moving escalator although have seen people running up one. Kind of like motorbikes and cars who must always be in front of the one in front of them and always end up at the same place within seconds. For me I have a death grip on both sides of the escalator moving hand rails. No one gets by me, besides that, I span one side to the other, no room to squeeze by. See avatar.

[scottish-guy]

Francois - you should travel on the London Underground - there are people running up and down the escalators all the time and signs telling you to stand to the side! It's quite common in the UK in general.

I have to say though that on a trip to Paris many years ago, we were standing at a street corner patiently waiting for the pedestrian signal to tell us to cross. Within about a second of the light finally changing a fat Frenchwoman barged us out of the way, loudly exclaiming "MARCHE!"

I'm not suggesting it might have been you :D just saying there is rude behaviour everywhere

[Nirish guy]

I've already said my piece about how I think it's simply unnecessary for someone to push past someone else on a 2.5ft wide moving escalator just to reach the same place that almost everyone else is going anyway and all just to ultimately usually reach the same train too so I won't bother going into that again ( plus I just don't like people shoving their way past me full stop in life).

But Francois is also right that aside from the arrogance and ban manners involved it IS an unsafe practice for others to shove past someone else on a moving escalator - (which IS very different to a much wider and flat slow moving travelator!) just to get to where THEY want to be, especially when the person they're forcing past might be trying to balance carry on hand luggage bag or god knows what else on the step above or below them, plus being British it's all just a bit bloody rude in my book, the very width of escalators tells you they were never designed or intended for overtaking or they would for sure have been made much wider and to use the reason "but we've always pushed past in the UK and there's even signs to say go ahead and do so" is no reason at all in my book.

I mentioned London Underground running tests on this subject and just in case some think I was joking or pulling facts out of the air to back up my view I wasn't, see the link below, where in a recent three week test london underground changed a complete tube station to "standing only" escalators and it reduced congestion by 30% ! That test is now being rolled out over a 6 month period to see do those figures repeat.

I would add if someone is gently walking down past me and causing me no annoyance I probably WOULD gently stand aside and let them pass whilst thinking to myself "there's someone in a hurry to go no where as as sure as hell I'm going to meet up with them on the platform again anyway", but those that bluster and push and shout 'EXCUSE me" in an intimidatory manner can quite frankly both wait and or go fuck themselves as they so prefer in my book, especially on short escalators as to me it just stinks of "my time is more valuable that yours now get out of my way" and my reply to that would be "no, they can just wait and learn some patience". Actually now that I think of it they should actually THANK me for reminding them to take a moment to relax and realise their farts stink just like everyone else's and that they're really NOT any more important than anyone else - I'm sure those that push past will TOTALLY agree with all of that ! :-)

Opps, nearly forgot - here's the London Underground link.....

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2016/april/six-month-escalator-trial-at-holborn-starts-today

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2016/01/subway-escalator-standing-study-tfl-london/424950/

[fountainhall]

I mentioned London Underground running tests on this subject and just in case some think I was joking or pulling facts out of the air to back up my view I wasn't, see the link below, where in a recent three week test london underground changed a complete tube station to "standing only" escalators and it reduced congestion by 30%
I certainly do not think you are joking! But an escalator in a tube station is quite different from one in, say, a large department store. Tube trains have to run to a specific timetable. In the London rush hour the small platforms get packed very quickly. It therefore makes a great deal of sense for the managers to have a greater control over the flow of passengers. Preventing people rushing would be part of that strategy. Rather similar to the traffic light controls from suburbs into a large, traffic-clogged city. These are often programmed to ensure the general traffic flow slows down as it gets nearer the city centre/s.


I am currently staying at Bandara Suites in Bangkok and there is a herd of Malaysian kids running around yelling in the hallways.
Manners in many hotels have definitely deteriorated. Two Taipei hotels I stay in have signs by the lifts requesting silence as a consideration to other guests. That is at least a start, although it doesn't always work. I believe all hotels should give every guest a notice at check-in reminding them that rooms in hotels are rarely soundproof, that some guests sleep or nap during the daytime and all guests should regard the corridors in a hotel as a quiet area. They are not like hotel lobbies!

[Moses]

There is a significant difference between escalators which move people vertically and moving walkways which move horizontally. I understand and follow the protocol on moving walkways by standing to the side designated for standees. But never heard or knew there was a similar protocol for escalators. There are good reasons for not having such a rule.
For instance, in transportation hubs many persons have luggage with them which makes it difficult when on an escalator whereby the luggage may be next to you, in back of you or in front of you. To have someone try to squeeze by creates a hazard by dislodging the luggage.
Secondly the steps on escalators are not meant for walking but for standing. The thread to rise ratio is not the same as for stairs which is why stopped escalators feel odd when walking up or down them. People trying to walk down an escalator are putting themselves (and everyone else) at risk due to chance of a misstep and falling especially when in a rush.
So, my 2 Bahts worth of comment.


Can't say I ever saw any sign on an escalator advising people to stand to one side.Actually never seen anyone trying to walk/run down a moving escalator although have seen people running up one. Kind of like motorbikes and cars who must always be in front of the one in front of them and always end up at the same place within seconds. For me I have a death grip on both sides of the escalator moving hand rails. No one gets by me, besides that, I span one side to the other, no room to squeeze by. See avatar.

Rules of metro in Moscow directly demand to stay on right and to walk on left side of escalator:

2.6. Находясь на эскалаторе, необходимо стоять справа, лицом по направлению его движения, проходить с левой стороны, держась за поручень, не наступать на ограничительную линию на ступенях, не прислоняться к неподвижным частям, держать малолетних детей на руках или за руку, не задерживаться при сходе с эскалатора.

Full text is here (rus) http://mosmetro.ru/info/

translation with Google:


2.6. On the escalator, you must stand on the right, facing the direction of its movement, to pass on the left side, holding the handrail, do not step on the boundary line on the steps, do not lean against the fixed parts, to keep young children in her arms or hand, not to linger at the gathering the escalator.

Most of escalators here are over 100m lenght, so just by walking you can cut time on escalator twice or triple (normal speed of escalators is 0.5-0.75 m/sec) - from 2-3 min to 1 one min. At rush hours trains are going here each 75-90 sec.

[arsenal]

Moses: No, it is not the same in China. It's each person doing what they like. That's what I mean by zero empathy. A total non recognition that other people are even around.

[fountainhall]

The apartheid has already started - at least in Switzerland. The famous Rigi Railways has finally had enough as the following article from a Chinese site makes clear -


Although destination countries welcome the money spent by Chinese travelers, locals often can’t stand the chaos and hassle some Chinese tourists bring to their countries. They consider them to be loud, rude, pushy, and all over the place. Such is the case in Switzerland, visited by one million Chinese tourists every year. Locals and Swiss tourists often feel harassed by the Chinese, Heute reports, especially on the famous Rigi Railways. Chinese tourists are said to be “loud and rude”, and they “spit on the floor”. Their misbehavior has lead Rigi Railways to take special measures: since August there are extra trains for ‘Asian tourists’, and from September extra ones for ‘international guests’. There are also special signs on the toilet explaining tourists how (not) to use the toilet, according to Heute.
http://www.whatsonweibo.com/too-loud-too-rude-switzerland-introduces-separate-trains-for-chinese-tourists/

3917

The toilet issue also resulted in a ban on Chinese tourists from Wat Rong Khun in Chiang Mai. The ban was lifted only after tour guides agreed to clean up toilets before groups departed! As the article point out, though, increasingly more and more Chinese tourists are realising that such bad behaviour reflects badly on them and China.

[arsenal]

The story above is just the beginning. Oh yes and btw. Anyone who says the America is still the only superpower is not living in the real geo-political world. There are two now.

[christianpfc]

What an interesting discussion about escalator etiquette!

All escalators I have seen have enough space for one person to stand (with luggage on steps above or below if necessary) and one person to walk past (unless one of them is grossly overweight). If possible, I walk on an escalator (the steps might be slightly different from stairs, no problem at all; even then change of hight at the bottom and top cause no problem for me). If people block the way, I decide whether I ask to pass or stand behind them (shoving past is impolite by my standards).

But the most fascinating insight is that "stand right, walk left" seems to be worldwide, even in countries that drive on the left (and overtake on the right).

No thread about escalator etiquette should be without a warning not to enter an escalator on wheelchairs:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF60HxYiR-M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF60HxYiR-M