Is it the beginning of the end?

[garypattaya]

A qoute from the now closing Nicky's Newsletter .

Nickys has decided to end.

Is it the beginning of the end for Pattaya's Gay SCene?

Most nights in Sunee are now lower than low and without the expats in most cases the bars would be running at a loss( if they arent already)

Colonial has closed,and several other bars.Bondi etc.

cast your mind back 10 years and the Gay scene it has gone downhill I guess.

I wonder even how long our Gay forum wil Last?

is it the beginning of the end?

Whats happening to cause this?

On another note I notice new Bars opening in Jomtien????
Is there enough Gay customers to sustain their operation?

Whilst other factors maybe contributing to not opening new bars in Sunee eg, 1 year maximum lease, you have to admit its not the Sunee Plaza we knew 10 years ago.

I think once Bars such as the Corner Bar went it started to go even further downhill.

Of course a lot of the older bar owners have either left or passed awaywhich turns off visitors that used to like to socialise.
Why would a 60yo farang that has visited Pattaya for many years every year bother to visit if the bars he's frequented no longer rxist.

Many on this forum admit they havent visited in a long time, some in a few years !

[latintopxxx]

I visit on a regular basis, have done so for the last 10 years or so, used to concentrate mostly on BKK with the occasional foray into Pattaya. Do agree that the bar/gogo bar scene has quietened down but can only put this down to the rise of apps like grindr/gayromeo and greedy bar owners & gogo boys and annoying mamasans; and the fact that the great entertainment is gone...where all all the fantastic erotic in your face shows??When I walk into a host/gogo bar I want to be treated like a paying guest and not lied to and annoyed constantly.

[garypattaya]

What about the Farangs that used to be regulars every year to Thailand,why did they stop going?
Or more to the point those who used to go yearly but now go every few yeRs, is it financial reasons or it just doessnt float your boat to go to Pattaya as much anymore.

As I said previously, theres guys on this Forum who used to go to Pattaya at least 3 times a year ,most at least yearly,but looking at these guys now some havent been for a few years , some only go every 2 years or so and are not in a rush to go back like they were previously.
I remember once regular poster "Bing" going every year only to to read recently that he hadnt been for 2 years but was planning on going back.

"Doug" was another who hadnt been for a few years.
Maybe Pattaya got boring for people?

Maybe the once Regular Farangs are using Grindr in their own Countries?

Who remembered the days of getting off in Farangland after a holiday in Thailand and rushing to book the next flight ???
Who remembers thinking everyday about the next visit and counting down the days?
Who remembers the busy gay forums we had 10plus years ago ?
WHo remembers posts after post of trip reports and Farangs who cannot wait to get back to Pattaya !!



Whats happened ?

[MiniMee]

Many on this forum admit they havent visited in a long time, some in a few years !There's even one member who hasn't visited for many years, but won't admit it!

[Marsilius]

...As I said previously, theres guys on this Forum who used to go to Pattaya at least 3 times a year ,most at least yearly,but looking at these guys now some havent been for a few years , some only go every 2 years or so and are not in a rush to go back like they were previously....

Who remembered the days of getting off in Farangland after a holiday in Thailand and rushing to book the next flight ???
Who remembers thinking everyday about the next visit and counting down the days?
Who remembers the busy gay forums we had 10plus years ago ?
WHo remembers posts after post of trip reports and Farangs who cannot wait to get back to Pattaya !!

The first paragraph describes me. Three - or at least two - trips annually between first visit in 1993 and 2013. Since then, just one.

I also answer "yes" to every question posed thereafter.

In a nutshell, I've given up my regular visits because Pattaya has, I think, become a victim of its own success. A few points come to mind, all pretty much interlinked:

- too many people in town (and, what precipitated my decision to back off from 2013 onwards, specifically too many rude and aggressive Russians) - the city's infrastructure can't cope
- Pattaya becoming too expensive in all respects (that greater demand from visitors not matched by greater supply - hence prices going up)
- Greater cynicism in Thai (and farang-run) businesses many of which quite blatantly rip off customers and have little/no appreciation of even the basics of customer service

During my most recent visit, I found that, although the Russians may have been replaced by the (not aggressive) Chinese, nothing else seems to be getting better. I suspect that, in my case, Pattaya will remain a place for occasional visits - though as much for old time's sake as for anything else.

[garypattaya]

Thankyou for your honesty Marsilus.
I know others on here also fit into the same category and have cut their trips down.
It would be good to hear from others who were once "Pattaya Centric" and now have lost their once "mojo".
I was surprised to read on another forum "Bing" a once thrice a year Pattaya visitor of yesteryear hadnt been to Thailand in over 3 years !

But I know theres a lot of you who were one Pattaya Centric and counted those days down to visiting , but havent been here in a while.

I suppose other factors can come into guys losing interest , for example did the GFC have anything to do with the downfall?
Did other places privide better boys and cheaper costs eg ,Phillipines , Cuba ?

Has it become too expensive for you to visit here ? Plane fare, Hotel , drinks etc

Did you stop visiting or cut your trips down because people you knew wernt there anymore , eg. Farangs or Bar owners passed away
Did you become bored with the place and dont see the excitement anymore from yesteryear?

[arsenal]

Well a lot of them are probably dead. All that sex and sun sent them off to the great go go bar in the sky, hopefully with a big smile on their faces. . It's considerably more expensive now in relative terms than it was. My trips there have never been more frequent and never been more fun so i am definitely in the counting down the days category.

[catawampuscat]

Most blame the internet sites like gayromeo, the weak world economy and aging farangs.
While much of the scene is gone, there's plenty left in Pattaya and it's still great.

[garypattaya]

I got talking to 77yo Guy from the UK recently and I asked him whats changed, why doesnt he come to Pattaya as much as he used to.
Here is the interview with 77yo Jock from the UK who describes himself as a "boylover".

Q/How long have you been visting Pattaya?

Well over 25 years now...Before I retired in 2006 I was coming and going up to 3 times a year.

Q/
Has your visits dropped off and if so why?

Oh yes ... I go about every 2-3 years now and have done so since about the last 6 years but even this year in whi h im due a visit its still a bit iffy im afraid...I have friends going to Spain so may go there this year instead.
My visits dropped off due to the "commercialisation" of the gay scene.
Years ago boys didnt have smartphones and there were none of these Grinder type apps.
Boys were hungry and went out of their way to welcome you hand and foot.
Boys were eager and keen to meet older guys and be in a Daddy son relationship.
They had respect in those days for older farangs, not so anymore.

Recently at the urging of my friends to change and be more modern I used the Grindr App ( had to ask for help lol) to order a boy to my room...he later called me on the phone asking me where he can park his new sports car to meet me !!! I dont enjoy paying a prostitute for a quick wham bam thankyou maam set up we have today snd even expect to provide him with parking !!

Whilst I know the boys of 20 years ago were prostitutes they certainly didnt act like the boys of today who time their sessions and short time is 30 minutes Its all quick money and something I dont enjoy nor my friends who used to visit.
Years ago we used to take boys out to eat and they were happy for the food, nowadays you would receive a bill for their time if you did that.

More of the interview later

[garypattaya]

Continue on interview with Jock 77yo from the UK


Q/ many older guys say that going to Pattaya is the only way to get sex at your age?

A/ maybe many years ago... But not so anymore , here in Wales we have a Gay Sauna where I have been lucky several times and am a regular on Pensioner days lol.

I also am usung a Smartphone now and downloaded quite a few Gay meeting apps.
I get lucky occassionaly.

Q/ You also rent out your extra bedrooms you mentioned before ?

A/ Yes .. Find many gay backpacker types on Craiglist , some even straight willing to trade a bedroom for making an older guy happy.
I have 2 extra bedrooms not being used so a quivk look or an advert on Craiglist, Silverdaddies etc can benefit me at my age ! My fantasy was brown skinned Asian boys but over the years of not going to Pattaya I have had young guys from Germany , Columbia, Spain, France , who have traded me for a room and accomodation.
I cant fault any of them really.
Part of the thrill is hunting these young guys down, sending them an email asking them if they want to trade, especially if they're straight and broke

Q/ But one can argue day having sex with a straight 21yo Blonde German backpacker is not the same as a young brown smoith skinned Thai boy !

A/ No your right and at first I thought I wouldnt be interested but my preferences have changed over the last few yesrs.
Im still a boylover even though we are stigmatised and belittled in Thailand but now we have to stick to the legal age of 18yo in Thailand.... Its crazy everyone scared and checking ID's , but here in the UK its 16yo without any gifts or benefits exchanged !!!

More interview soon

[garypattaya]

Continue on with the interview of Jock 77yo male

Q/ You say you used too be a boylover and was off to Thailand 3 to 4 times a year ?

A/ Yes when I was working , I used to work for the Civil Service although in a physical role.
I had many friends from all over the World and we'd meet up , there was no email back then, we' d have to use what you call now snail mail to keep in touch.

We were known as Papa ... I was known as Papa J, boys would call me Papa J,
Nowadays your lucky if they call you Sir !

Starting around the mid 2000's do gooders arrived in Pattaya wanting to take the boys away from their ability to feed their families.
Just like the UK is now, 16yo back then was very acceptable, now paranoia has set in and Farangs are scared if the boy lokks young but even maybe 18yo for fear of persucution.

I believe a lot of my friends went off to the Phillipines etc after that, I lost touch with many of them.

Q/ You admit your a " boylover" , isnt that what the Gay Community is Pattaya wants to stamp out?

A/ Well.. It seems so lol... But many of the farangs are attracted to Teen boys but are scared to admit it.
Now I hear the military want to put the age up to 21yo to work in the bars !!
Already there are bars in Pattaya with 45yo men dancing !!!
There has been a stigma and a never ending force in the last few years to label boylovers or hebephiles as pedophiles and that is not the case.

Q/ So are you saying that Pattaya has slowed because the hepephiles ir boylovers have left for fear of persucution?

A/ in some ways yes, look I was bever into guys younger than 17 or 18 anyway but paranoia starting to come into it and people went to other places.

[a447]

"I was bever (sic) into guys younger than 17....."

Really? I thought you were:

"Im still a boylover even though we are stigmatised and belittled in Thailand but now we have to stick to the legal age of 18yo in Thailand.... Its crazy everyone scared and checking ID's , but here in the UK its 16yo without any gifts or benefits exchanged !!!"

[arsenal]

Jack sounds like a really creepy fuck. Pattaya and the boys are better off without him. I don't want my offs hungry thank you very much. I want them to be enjoying a good living from their work with enough money for food, phones etc.

[scottish-guy]

I liked the bit about '...nowadays you're lucky if the boys call you Sir!'

Old Jock (from Wales!) is certainly very brazen - freely describing himself as a "boylover" (which as we all know is code for paedophile), to an apparent complete stranger!

I think there must be more to this story than "Gary" has so far told us.

:p

[garypattaya]

Yes SG I interviewed quite a few Farangs.
I have been told that you yourself havent been to Thailand for a few years now, if thats the case can I ask if theres any particular reason why apart from financial or work reasons that is.

I would have loved to interview Michael Burchall of Top Man fame when he was here last year but missed him.
He wrote a history book on Pattaya.

[scottish-guy]

I'm not available for interview Gary but Mini Mee will be happy to tell you everything you want to know about me.

The fact that he actually knows nothing that's in any way accurate certainly wouldn't deter him from filling your notebook with utter shite.

:cool:

[garypattaya]

There are a few people i would love to interview NIrish guy for one would be on my list.
You too SG, love to find out what makes you tick and what personality is behind that name.

[Khor tose]

I think the real question is who is Garyp? Me, hell, if I wanted to test the waters and find out what people have to say on a red flag subject, I might just ask some Jock to speak for me.

[arsenal]

And Creepy Jack is apparently surprised and disappointed that 'boylovers' are viewed with disdain. Go figure!

[garypattaya]

I wouldnt be quick to judge,some in the Community would class "boylovers" as those who like 18year olds too.

[garypattaya]

I have sent an email to Nicky's to ask why they are closing the newsletter, so far I havent received a response.
If the Forums go too ( which im predicting one or two will close soon) then those of you overseas will be in the dark about what is happening in Pattaya.
Your not missing much apart from bar closures and less boys around and the ones that are around are ancient as my good friend LMTU used to say.

[arsenal]

18 is a legally empowered adult. Below that is not.

[garypattaya]

Yes 18yo but in some Western Countries it is indeed 16yo.

To me that is too young but who am I to judge if I saw a 60yo man walking hand in hand with a 16yo in a Country where its legal?

Should he be despised ? The thing was apparently it was once legal in Thailand but things changed which resulted in a lot of farangs trying other Countries.
Im certainly not going to judge anyone,where its legal its their right.

all I want to do is find out why farangs have either stopped their trips to Pattaya or lessen their visits.

Even statistically gay becoming expats have dropped off the last few years .

Why we have bars such as Corner Bar , Colonial , Come in , all going out of business and now a gay newsletter who says its not worth their time.

Punters can blame it on not having air conditioning, overpriced drinks etc but I think its more than that.

[fountainhall]

To me that is too young but who am I to judge if I saw a 60yo man walking hand in hand with a 16yo in a Country where its legal?
And how would you know his age if it was not you walking around with him?

[Surfcrest]

Did other places privide better boys and cheaper costs eg ,Phillipines , Cuba ?

Did you become bored with the place and dont see the excitement anymore from yesteryear?

It's certainly not the same place it was 25 years ago for me. From the magic, from a time when foreigners were few and treated with great respect...no matter how they behaved. Now a days, the standard of living has improved, Thais are more customers to that industry and the industry one of foreigners or greatly less fortunate. You can blame the phone all Thais have and the connection they now have to the world, world values and predjudisms.

I think you'll find prostitution to become less socially accepted around the world. People are more connected and I think Thais in general want to see a change in how they are viewed, through the same western stereotypes we're exposed to about Thailand. I can't speak for the Phillipines, but as US relations normalize with Cuba...the Rose industry along the Malecon will vanish overnight, compared to Thailand's slow decline.

It's also a supply and demand world and so much like the red light district in Amsterdam, I'm sure you'll see some degree of the commercialized industry...on the female side of Thailand's industry.

I'm not sure what Forums you are predicting will close soon, I'm very doubtful Gaybutton or Sawatdee will close anytime soon. What you may see though is the continued evolution of this site as we try to reach out to Gay Travelers of all ages and nationalities who are interested in traveling to or living in Thailand. Thailand might be changing, but for people like me who love the food and culture and the beach lifestyle down at Jomtien...there will always be something to come back to.

Surfcrest

[scottish-guy]

Gary, most of us know our way around the internet (chatrooms, forums, and such) where one comes all kind of weirdos (yes even worse than here - LOL) - and can tell you the term "boylover" has only ONE meaning - and it's not a guy into 18yos (or usually even 16yos).

If I'm being extremely generous, I guess Old Jock maybe misunderstood the term.

[Tobi]

Yes 18yo but in some Western Countries it is indeed 16yo.

It's lower than 16 across most of Europe, I think Spain it's still 13 with Germany, Portugal, Italy and a few others at 14, and France and Greece at 15. I've never believed that high age of consent laws stop paedophiles, more often such laws end up criminalising those they're supposed to protect, ie. 18 year olds being charged with statutory rape for sleeping with their consenting 17 year old girlfriends, youngsters who "sext" naked pictures of themselves being charged with making and distributing child pornography, etc. etc.

[Tobi]

Is it the beginning of the end?

It's already over, and not just in Thailand. There's been a seismic shift in the bar scene globally, drinking establishments of any kind are now rarely a viable commercial proposition. I'm in central London and I only have to look around me, my five nearest pubs have been demolished and turned into blocks of flats in just the last decade or so. As for the gay "scene", apart from Old Compton Street, it's dead if not yet buried.

I've only been to Thailand once, and whilst I'm returning again shortly, that'll be more as a base for visiting other countries. I had a great time, and thoroughly enjoyed the night life, but it's not something I'd want to do on a regular basis. For me, it was a bit like visiting the Moulin Rouge or Crazy Horse in Paris, something you do as a tourist, just the once.

I engaged most of my Thai playmates through an agency and online, a few via hookup apps and on one occasion just giving a gorgeous guy a card with my temporary contact details. It's not hard to believe the majority of guys must prefer the freelance lifestyle to being enslaved to a bar regime. I'm also sure that for regular hirers, online is a much cheaper option, given that offing from a bar seemed to cost us anything up to 10,000 baht when everything was taken into account.

There will always be a few successful show bars, but more as a slightly naughty tourist traps. For the rest, there's online !!

[fountainhall]

It's already over, and not just in Thailand. There's been a seismic shift in the bar scene globally, drinking establishments of any kind are now rarely a viable commercial proposition.
I agree the scene is dying in Thailand. But as I have noted today and in previous posts, it is growing in Taiwan - and especially in Taipei. Although that perhaps depends on how you define "scene". If you mean go-go bars and commercial establishments that are basically a cover for the sex industry, you'd have to include Taiwan for there are few around. But if you just mean a scene catering to everyday gay guys who are out for a good time and perhaps occasionally a hook-up, then Taipei's gay scene is growing rapidly.

[Tobi]

Although that perhaps depends on how you define "scene".

I know very little about Taiwan. Do you perceive any specific reason for the expansion of the scene, ie. is being "out" only recently acceptable? Also, is the "scene" accommodating in an interracial and intergenerational sense? We went to an obviously highly successful "gay" disco cum stage show in Thailand, but there were only a couple of farang in attendance and I certainly felt like the oldest swinger in town. Fortunately we were in a box but I wouldn't have felt comfortable if we'd been standing around a table on the main floor, bit like grandparents popping into the Ministry of Sound in London to watch the kids having a bop!!

[newalaan2]

Is it the beginning of the end for Pattaya's Gay SCene?

I don't think it's anywhere near the end of Pattaya's GAY scene. That's a generalisation too far. But the Pattaya BAR scene is never going to recover to anything like it was even 6 years ago, that's for sure.

Some are quoting that it has changed and is nothing like it was '25 years ago' or whatever, well of course it has changed, EVERYTHING has changed that doesn't mean it's the end. It's even changed dramatically over the 16 years I've been regularly visiting, but MFAS and other negative posters have been 'predicting' it's demise since as far back as that, and every year continues to go on in whatever form it has morphed into.

The biggest factor without doubt is not the amount of westerners not visiting, (of course the financial crash did put an end to many who had planned to visit regularly before retiring in Thailand and some simply were unable to recover),and yes a few have had medical issues and a handful have died but I think many are not taking into consideration just how much the effect of how the boys market themselves has impacted on the bars. Social media and hook up apps have been on the go for a few years now and continually improving, and this has been the biggest and most relevant impact on the bars/bar scene.

Many visitors/expats now just make initial contact with boys and then they have the details needed to hook up with any amount of available boys during a trip and as the bars are now a second line for hooking up with boys whereas before they used to be the first/only option, that is bound to have a devastating impact. The boys taking control of their own way to market themselves has been the biggest change over the years I have been visiting without doubt. Picking up boys in bars was THE reason for most to visit bars in previous years, from 2000 to about 2010 I found little major change in the Pattaya overall bar scene, from (about) 2010 the changes have raced along, almost an overnight sea change from 2012 to now. It stands to reason if there is no reason for 90% of western gay visitors to visit the bars then only bars offering some kind of entertainment or interest as well as the few boys now available compared to previous years will continue to prosper. There is also the factor of mamasans, managers and other staff will still try to keep bars relevant and operating even though they make little profit as it's their livelihood, which is probably relevant to Sunee.


I think many are confusing the impact on Pattaya bars to the overall scene. The boys are still there, no doubt about that, gay lads are still there in large numbers, check out hornet etc.. even they have a much more varied and quantity compared to Gay Romeo, so even the 'online' scene is changing. Pattaya remains the reason/excuse for boys from other provinces to 'escape' their home, parents and restrictions. They can not only 'earn' but can live the lifestyle they really want to as young gay lads, that hedonism in young gay lads is never going to change. I think many westerners especially those out of touch and niave really think they come to Pattaya for the 'benefit' of western customers, they come for themselves and the western customers have to fit into their lifestyle not the other way around now.

I have been visiting at least 3 times per year for the last 16 years and that won't change. The main reason is that I have a Thai bf, but if I did not I would still visit exactly as I have previously. Two main reasons are that I enjoy/need time away from UK/and home working environment, and while I do visit European countries regularly I still feel I'm still in the Euro rat race, but travelling to the other side of the world where the people, culture are completely different gives me the complete change of scene I need. The second is I still enjoy Thailand and the 'freedom' in the gay scene and in life generally compared to the challenges back home, also despite some claiming things are much more expensive nowadays, I don't find that at all. All of my main costs for a trip have hardly gone up. My first BA economy flight in 2000 was over £600, 16 years later if I want I can get an economy flight for under £500. Taxi fares have hardly changed from airport to Pattaya at 1000-1500bt,my accommodation is cheaper than my first few years visiting, boys expectation of Bt1000-Bt1500 are 'about' the same. Of course there have been infationery rises but these have had little impact on my overall spending levels.


well a lot of them are probably dead. It's considerably more expensive now in relative terms
Some no doubt have died, but I don't think this is a major reason behind the significant change Pattaya bars fortunes. In terms of cost to visit, I disagree with that premise as being a significant reason. Well it's not a major factor in my own experience. See above.

Also I think many rely on the gay Thailand forums to gauge interest and numbers visiting Thailand. But apathy and indifference as well as not having the same need now to find out what's happening in the bars as they are using online to hook up has discouraged many previously regular contributors to simply not bother to post as much as they used to or at all. But I think it foolish, naïve to think that they have all simply stopped going/disappeared, that's definitely not the case. I still keep in touch with many former forum contributors who simply have completely lost momentum in dealing with the forums, with apathy and disinterest taking over as the forums are now virtually all the same, they all used to offer something different from eachother, but the 'edge' SGT used to have has unfortunately gone now. There are reasons for this of course which is down to the set-ups/owners of the forums but that is a different discussion on its own.


here is the interview with 77yo jock from the uk

It is a great pity this thread has been allowed to morph into a discussion of what is underage, and take away from the main topic. I remember when the current owner (not moses) first took a dislike to me and was jumping all over any post I made and on one occasion when I only mentioned the '16-18' age group as part of the overall post, he claimed that I was 'pushing the envelope' as underage discussion was NOT permitted in any form, and here we have a full blown discussion not just a mere 'mention' or single use of the numbers '16 and 17'. It is detracting from the main issue/topic here.


I think the real question is who is Garyp
Quite Khor tose. He has 'used' this 'jock interview' simply to turn his original post into some underage discussion. The owners/mods, and others, are being naively sucked in, IMHO. The underage part should be moved elsewhere.

Apologise for any grammar issues it was a bit rushed.

[scottish-guy]

We all know there is something more going on with GaryP than meets the eye - I said that 2 pages ago!

I would like to know the nature of these "interviews" he carries out - perhaps he will enlighten us?

[fountainhall]

I know very little about Taiwan. Do you perceive any specific reason for the expansion of the scene, ie. is being "out" only recently acceptable? Also, is the "scene" accommodating in an interracial and intergenerational sense?
I wish I could give you a proper answer - and I should be able to since I have been visiting for decades. But I really do not know why the gay scene has taken off so relatively rapidly in the last 6 - 10 years. There was a time when Taiwanese would only go out to the very few gay bars in groups. If foreigners entered, singly or in groups, the Taiwanese would stick to their own circle. There was little intermingling. Perhaps this was because there are relatively few western expats in the country. Perhaps many Taiwanese guys remained in the closet. A former boyfriend of mine who likes older foreigners always complains to me that he just cannot find a new bf!

One reason for the closet nature of the gay scene must be the usual cultural thing with Chinese and other Asians. Guys are supposed to get married, raise kids and then look after their parents in their old age. But then something changed. Nowhere is this more obvious than in the history of the annual Gay Pride Parade (an event which used to be held in Bangkok but which died many years ago and has never been resurrected). Between the first Parade in 2003 and the 5th in 2008 the numbers swelled from 1,000 to 18,000. When I first attended in 2011, there were estimated to be nearly 60,000 participants. Last year the numbers had risen to 75,000, making it by far and away the largest Pride Parade in Asia. And if I could guess the average age of the participants, I'd reckon it to be well under 30. Each Parade has a specific social theme - no discrimination, approve gay marriage etc.The huge disco parties that take place over that week-end attract guys from all over. There seems to be absolutely no discrimination at that level.

Now many cities on the island have their own Pride Parade. Students make up a large percentage of the participants. Most universities now have large gay societies. Quite surprisingly - at least to me because it has happened so quickly, the fear of being seen to be gay has in large measure disappeared. Most of my friends live openly with their partners as do many of their friends. And then the new President, a single lady, is openly in favour of gay rights. Coinciding with the last Pride Parade she said in a vdo on her facebook page -


When it comes to love, everyone is equal. I am Tsai Ing-wen, and I support marriage equality. Every person should be able to look for love freely, and freely seek their own happiness.
Can anyone imagine a Thai Prime Minister saying the same in the next decade or two?

Gay saunas were perhaps the first indication of the scene opening up. I can recall going to 2 or 3 more than 20 years ago. Unlike the bars, there would always be some guys interested in hooking up with foreigners. But saunas are private and anonymous. Now more or less everything is out in the open. Bars, cafes, clubs, hot springs. There certainly seems to be no more fear. A recent government nationwide poll found that 71% are in favour of gay marriage. Same-sex partnerships are now legal in 9 cities and counties. The belief is that the government will start by introducing an island-wide partnership law and move on fairly quickly from there to gay marriage.

I am a long way from the spring chicken stage, and I find it relatively easy to find hook-ups and genuine friendships with much younger guys. You might like to have a quick look at the report on my recent visit in the Gay World forum. Naturally, though, the vast majority of Taiwanese are seeking relationships with fellow Taiwanese.

[Tobi]

I wish I could give you a proper answer...

Thanks for the in-depth response, much appreciated, Oh, and you have given a proper answer, in that it's undoubtedly a combination of many different things!

I know in the UK, the younger crowd no longer appear to see bars and clubs as a place to pull, that's what apps are for, which has probably added to the decline of exclusively gay places. They also appear much more comfortable going out with a mixed crowd to mixed places, rather than segregating themselves.

Like the changes in Thailand, the San Francisco I loved 30 years ago, no longer exists. Ditto New York, especially Fire Island. I'm still a fan of Brazil, and Spain at the moment has a huge number of gorgeous guys going cheap, probably due to their 50%+ youth unemployment!! However, I'm not meeting them in gay bars these days, but online.

Taiwan hasn't really been on my radar, but I'll fit in a quick jaunt when I'm next in the Philippines.

Thanks again.

[cdnmatt]

We all know there is something more going on with GaryP than meets the eye - I said that 2 pages ago!

I'm confused, what are we talking about? Mere sexual appeal, or actual predators who source out and engage in sex with underage?

If it's the former, I don't see the issue. Heck, we just recently had a large thread about Privateboymovies where everyone was salivating, and it's a site that advertises guys "only a few days over 18". I'll admit, I find 16 and 17 years olds sexually pleasing to the eye sometimes, but just in a different way -- more of a "what a handsome young man" way, instead of a "OMG, gorgeous!" way.

In my creepy farang thread I even mentioned the cute ~17yo meat skewer guy. I have absolutely zero interest in him, but hey, I can spot a handsome young man when I see one. Personally, my perfect spot is 22yo+, and my (probably stupid) reasoning is because by then the pre-frontal cortex has fully developed, so they're easier to deal with, plus better chance of a decent conversation.

If we're talking about actual predators who source out and engage in sex with underage, then that's obviously a bit of a different story.

[fountainhall]

Taiwan hasn't really been on my radar, but I'll fit in a quick jaunt when I'm next in the Philippines
I should add one thing. The Taipei gay scene is not concentrated as it is in Bangkok or Pattaya. So there is the problem of finding your way around when many of the signs are only in Chinese characters. It certainly helps if you have a friend there to show you around. Also more of the gay travel sites are including lots more information about Taipei. A good place to start is the Red House complex close to Ximen subway station. Here are lots of bars (including a Bear Bar) and a few restaurants. Two saunas are very close by. The good thing about Taipei is that it is so easy to get around on the excellent subway system. Taxis are also plentiful and relatively cheap

[frequentfliers]

What about the Farangs that used to be regulars every year to Thailand,why did they stop going?
Or more to the point those who used to go yearly but now go every few yeRs, is it financial reasons or it just doessnt float your boat to go to Pattaya as much anymore.

As I said previously, theres guys on this Forum who used to go to Pattaya at least 3 times a year ,most at least yearly,but looking at these guys now some havent been for a few years , some only go every 2 years or so and are not in a rush to go back like they were previously.
I remember once regular poster "Bing" going every year only to to read recently that he hadnt been for 2 years but was planning on going back.

"Doug" was another who hadnt been for a few years.
Maybe Pattaya got boring for people?

Maybe the once Regular Farangs are using Grindr in their own Countries?

Who remembered the days of getting off in Farangland after a holiday in Thailand and rushing to book the next flight ???
Who remembers thinking everyday about the next visit and counting down the days?
Who remembers the busy gay forums we had 10plus years ago ?
WHo remembers posts after post of trip reports and Farangs who cannot wait to get back to Pattaya !!



Whats happened ?I have visited THAILAND for 18 years now and would normally go twice a year.Over the past few years I have split my holidays between Pattaya and Prague.I am not a big fan of Sunee Plaza but did enjoy Krazy Dragon on a few occasions.My favourite place was Panorama bar.Recently in April I went to Jomtien Complex which seems to have become a major player in the gay scene.The days of go go bars seems to have come to an end.The few remaining are doing their best to please the few that attend them.
A friend of ours who lives there and involved in the gay scene tells us that it is at an all time time low.High season was not good at all.I hope it survives as I think it will but putting pressure on customers to buy drinks for staff and the continuous breaking of the smoking ban puts people off.Maybe its just that Pattaya gay scene is changing,hopefully for the best.

[francois]

.Maybe its just that Pattaya gay scene is changing,hopefully for the best.

If anything the scene is changing for the worst, not the best.

[Tobi]

If anything the scene is changing for the worst...

How so, mon ami?!

[francois]

Once upon a time there were very many boy-go-go bars in Pattaya and very vibrant but now not so. Sad.

[scottish-guy]

I'm confused, what are we talking about?

Matt, I think you've misunderstood what I meant.

I'm not suggesting that GaryP is engaging in any kind of sexual liason with anybody (nothing interests me less than where any particular person planks the sausage ) - I'm suggesting that he doesn't go around just "interviewing" random people on a whim and that the Old Jock story is a pile of cockydoody.

[garypattaya]

SG in regards to mentioning boylovers,this was one of many reasons brought out why there have been less visiting farangs in recent years with those people looking elsewhere.
Maybe they were a small proportion of the Sunee Gay Community in the mid 2000's when the Police crackdowns happened im not sure but it certainly put some kind of dent in gay tourism maybe.


Im not here to judge those peoples sexual preference but the reasins in why there is drop off of gay visitors to Pattaya.

I dont believe that not having Air conditioning in bars etc has any effect whether someone visits Thailand this year.

Francois,I often wondered how the Go Go bars made any money being opened from 9pm to 1am only.
I do notice however an increase in French Gay visitors than ever before, and a decline in the German visitors, maybe thats just me.

[garypattaya]

Newallaan makes a important point in another thread that prices really havent gone up over the last few years.
Deaths of the regular Gay farang visitors have obviously had an effect with no new or next Generation ha ving any inclination to visit ?

[latintopxxx]

Dunno...really don't know why things change. Places like Barcelona, Cape Town, Amsterdam, all used to have thriving gay scenes...now its all too commercial, pretty and gentrified. And the gay scene is a mere shadow of what once was. Maybe its all the hook up apps?? One of the ain reasons I'd go clubbing/bar hopping was the on-site sex and failing that, pick up guys for sex, either my place, or theres or in summer in the gardens. But now...its just so easy. Tap on an app...and its all there, no mystery, preferences outlined, etc.
I visit Pattaya to enjoy the easy sex, its well known I have a weakness for paid sex, love owning the MB and using him for my pleasure only, love the fact i can have 2 or e DIFFERENT ones a day, love the fact that most will do just about anything for bht1000; also helps that I enjoy the warm tropical weather, love Thai food and love lounging on the gay beach being waited on hand and foot like minor royalty.
Only go to bars/gogo bars for a change of scenery...get a kick out of watching the silly MB on stage trying to sell themselves, do enjot eros because thast hands on, if there were more bars like that I definitely would go out a lot more, where else for the price of a drink and a tip of anything between 100 and 300bht can one absolutely string the "boy" naked, throw him over your lap and explore him/enjoy his body to your hearts content; in full view too.
So Pattaya still has its attractions, just not the gogo bars anymore because online is cheaper and selection is huge.
I dont see poverty in Thailand being eradicated in the foreseeable future so there will always be a huge supply of Mb willing and able to please.
So relax everyone....the sky is not falling down.

[arsenal]

Scottish is right. There is some kind of agenda with the op because a thread ostensibly about NGP quickly moved into one about something else. And it was moved there by the op.

[garypattaya]

Sorry arsenal, please explain?

[latintopxxx]

yes arse..nal plse explain

[arsenal]

Read the thread:
Loquitur pro se.

[neddy3]

Your not missing much apart from bar closures and less boys around and the ones that are around are ancient as my good friend LMTU used to say.

Your good friend LMTU? Tells me something.

And your 'interview' with Jock? Tells me something.

And your inaccurate post about Baan Dok Mai? Tells me something.

I can't give you any credibility.

[Tobi]

The Taipei gay scene is not concentrated as it is in Bangkok or Pattaya.

Good to know, thanks. The chance to engage in some sexploits when travelling to a new destination is a minor albeit important part of a trip for me, so I nearly always try and arrange a gay-friendly tour guide and/or an escort in advance with the hotel, so I can hit the ground running.

[garypattaya]

Your good friend LMTU? Tells me something.

And your 'interview' with Jock? Tells me something.

And your inaccurate post about Baan Dok Mai? Tells me something.

I can't give you any credibility.

No inaccuracies with BDM , read tripadviser, a customer who is a regular poster on here wrote a recent report.

[neddy3]

Oh yeah??

[scottish-guy]

The Trip Advisor post referred to is by someone called "MacLancashire" and GaryPattaya says that is Newalaan.

The question is - how could GaryP possibly know Newalaan's handle on Trip Advisor (if he's right)?

I'm sure there's a simple explanation, just wonder what it is.

:cool:

[cdnmatt]

Would Surfcrest or Moses please ban this guy already?

Last time I was in Pattaya was probably back in 2011, but what does that matter?

[Moses]

Would Surfcrest or Moses please ban this guy already?

Don't worry.

[Moses]

May be I'm too optimistic or romantic, but my dream is at one day to see this forum like this picture:

3804

I'm working for it and do my best. But after few months forum still looks more like on this picture:


3803

[Tobi]

But after few months forum still looks more like on this picture:

That's life in the Philippines for you. ;)

[Smiles]

May be I'm too optimistic or romantic, but my dream is at one day to see this forum like this picture:
Let's hope this board never morphs into a cliche-laden lovey-dovey-ness seemingly beloved by its moderator. Sawatdee's edgy reputation needs protection, not a slow death ... though lately I feel that it's getting closer to the latter. Hundreds of really excellent members have simply never come back to the joint, which is a crying shame.


I'm working for it and do my best.
Sounds like the board will start tasting a much heavier moderating hand. Oh joy.

[Moses]

Let's hope this board never morphs into a cliche-laden lovey-dovey-ness seemingly beloved by its moderator. Sawatdee's edgy reputation needs protection, not a slow death ... though lately I feel that it's getting closer to the latter. Hundreds of really excellent members have simply never come back to the joint, which is a crying shame.


:) welcome back

let me show you results of past 3 months: forum has 90+ new members, daily visits also are growing: "most users ever online was 891, June 2nd, 2016 at 12:03"

[Smiles]

Just for the record: I wasn't referring to Khortose as an 'excellent member''. Far from it ... although "Liking" Moderators does have a tendency toward a brown nosing background hiss.
I was in fact talking about members who no longer participate here, not new members. Perhaps you'd prefer the new ones, who naturally would be more open to group hugs.

[catawampuscat]

Garypattaya represents the worst of posters.
His style is
the same as the bitchboard, which died as its owners, Neal and lmtu died, ignominiously.
Karma is a bitch..

[Surfcrest]

There won't be much change in the moderation, I'll still ban guys like garypattaya when they open discussions about member's personal lives, outside of who they are when a member posts here.

Surfcrest

[a447]

I'm feeling a bit like Nirish, who posted in another thread that he "couldn't be arsed" making yet another trip to LOS. I was planning my upcoming trip later this month but then kind of thought, oh, fuck it, can I really be bothered getting on a plane yet again? Besides, my old company wants me to do some work for them and although I could refuse, it would be very difficult to do so. So I might end up in Japan instead. I getting heaps of messages on Line from my "friends" in LOS, anxious to see my credit card, but they'll have to wait.

Actually, they may have to wait longer than usual, as I'm planning to take a friend on A jaunt around Europe in September,if his health holds up. So there goes that regular visit. And my annual Christmas /New Year trip is also in doubt, as I'm planning to visit Taiwan with some (straight) friends.

Sometimes I think the magic has worn off, which it probably has, given that I go back to the same places 4 times a year. And in Pattaya there's nothing to do during the day, so it gets quite boring.

I'm not much into the club scene, but I have been to a couple of Isaan music clubs. A guy I've known for a long time took me to the one on Walking Street and we had a great time. But I find the music sounds all the same (I'm sure it isn't!) and besides, I think you need to be a drinker to really enjoy the atmosphere.

Oh, and I'm also having a very interesting time with a hot Italian MB who likes to spend the weekend with me.

But then again, he's not Asian. And when I think of all those lovely, horny,sexy guys in LOS.........

I wonder how long I can hold out for.

[Moses]

I was in fact talking about members who no longer participate here, not new members. Perhaps you'd prefer the new ones, who naturally would be more open to group hugs.

I haven't preferences by new/old criteria, but I have preferences in members behavior: I prefer members who respect other members and forum.

[fountainhall]

So relax everyone....the sky is not falling down.
Certainly not yet. But how much longer are Pattaya's attractions likely to last? There may indeed be a constant supply of MBs from the country but the bars are run by people who generally want to make cash. If bar patronage is down - and we know it is way down - and those now visiting are spending less on offs whilst they consume their one expensive drink and the bib are still taking their tea money, how can they continue?

Blame it on the apps. They're here to stay for quite some time and the dedicated punter can save a ton of cash. Whilst I am sad at the demise of the go-go bars, their business model has been crap for some years. With few exceptions virtually no attempt to assess the competition and move with the times. The only obvious move here in Bangkok has been for owners to employ young guys from neighbouring countries rather than cute Thais, no doubt because they are cheaper. (Hold on, though, how does that square with there being a huge supply of Thai MBs flocking in to the business from the countryside? Are they restricted to the apps?) Yet these guys have no work permits. And so when there is a raid, as there was in Soi Twilight last week, there is a mass exodus and only the older - and in many cases, less attractive - guys are left on the stage.

The same is happening with the massage venues. In Bangkok most of us thought that Hero was a goldmine. For a while it may well have been but clearly something happened to force it to close its very central location and move way out to what have been described here and elsewhere as dingy, depressing digs. The fate of Albury must be an ever-present dark cloud hanging over its owners. Move out of prime central and even though you are far closer than the new SuperHero, you die. Phuket and Chiang Mai used to have some nice go-go bars. Not any more.

Despite all that I still believe someone could make good money with a bar of the right size offering what the punters want - even if tea money remains a necessary expenditure. But the owners are brain-dead. The authorities are slowly moving to ensure that core tourist areas are stripped of the obviously gay venues. Welcome to "Operation Clean Up Thailand".

[arsenal]

My advice is this. If you used to go to Pattaya for weeks or months on end then it will pale after a short while. The old holiday adage, 10 days is probably enough is absolutely true. So go for 12-14 days because there is more than enough to keep you entertained for that length of time. I've just checked prices for September and flights have never been cheaper.

[Marsilius]

The authorities are slowly moving to ensure that core tourist areas are stripped of the obviously gay venues. Welcome to "Operation Clean Up Thailand".

Actually, of course, the anti-gay process has been an even longer one than that. Before 2001 the gay scene was still growing and thriving, but the Thai election that year saw the arrival in power of minister Purachai Piumsombun who initiated a programme of cracking down on gay bars - earlier closing hours, restricting them to designated geographical areas, imposing strict employment regulations, etc. - and actually enforcing those policies by police raids and prosecutions. The further expansion of the gay scene at its old rate was hamstrung very quickly by Purachai's social campaign.

Anyone coming new to Thailand today may still be struck with such surprise at what's (still) there as to think the country, as we all did upon first arrival, a "gay paradise". But, at the risk of sounding like an old fart reminiscing about "the good old days", anyone whose age and past experience of the country allows them to take a longer perspective can see that a peak was passed in the early years of this century. Say what you like about her (and, on this board, we often did) but Madame Jim always had her commercially successful finger on the pulse of the gay scene and her decision to sell BBB a few years back and move into the more "respectable" hospitality industry was, I think, a symbolically important one.

To revisit the terms of the original question, the beginning of the end took place in 2001. We are now, I suspect, somewhere near - or even beyond - a point that's in the middle of the "end" process. At this rate - admittedly still a slow but, it seems, an accelerating one - I doubt very much whether by 2030 many, or any, of even the currently remaining features of the gay scene in Thailand will be recognisable or even exist at all.

[Tobi]

...the dedicated punter can save a ton of cash...

I don't have any preference for Asian guys, so in my case, there's also the cost of travel, airfares, hotels, etc. to factor in and when all-is-said-and-done if I divide that by the number of offs-from-bars then it's a lot, lot less to hire in the UK!!

[fountainhall]

the beginning of the end took place in 2001
Agreed. Again for those who were not visiting Thailand at that time, Purachai was an old mate and close friend of Thaksin Shinawatra who had just been appointed Prime Minister. Thaksin appointed him Interior Minister. In his personal life, Purachai followed a strict moral code. He saw it as his duty to extend his own views to the country as a whole, especially the youth of Thailand. Thus early closing, zoning of entertainment districts, bans on sale of alcohol during much of the daytime, raid after raid on nightlife establishments - often with Purachai himself seen leading them. He promised that his social order campaigns would eradicate the country's social evils. These he stated were drunkenness, crime, road accidents and sexual promiscuity. He is actually on record as saying that a good country is one where children stayed at home with their parents at night!

Of course they achieved nothing of the sort. But they did cause the owners of nightlife establishments a great deal of trouble. Thaksin, though, was a populist and perhaps knew in advance that Purachai's reforms would appeal to the mass of the people. They did. So Thaksin was fully behind Purachai. He believed that political order, economic order, media order and moral and social order went hand in hand - his being the controlling hand, naturally.

The follow-on question, of course, is: would the expansion have continued if Thaksin had lost that 2001 election and Purachai been consigned to the political doghouse? Who knows? I suspect it would probably have levelled off. For sure, though, it would be a lot healthier for visiting gay guys than it is now.

[Doug]

When will the BIB find a way to extract tea money from the apps?

[colmx]

I always find the best cure for boredom with Pattaya is a quick visit to Bkk, Samui, Phuket, Siem Reap or even KL/Singapore....
I usually come rushing bck with new found enthusiasm!

[loke]

Yes the scene is changing , because we are getting older , the technology changes. One thing that does not change is our love to Thailand and it's boys . Boys over the legal age I might add.

[Old git]

Life goes on, and it's generally better for the soul to adopt a 'glass half full' attitude.

Yes, it hurts when something you love dies or declines, but that happens, and one needs to look for new avenues of pleasure, and limit one's grieving.

But...

When I was young, the lessons learned from the horror of Nazi Germany were still fresh in people's minds, and as schoolchildren, the importance of free speech and the need to reject tyranny were drummed into us. That attitude played no small part in gay emancipation.

The biggest worry today is the erosion of those principals. The intolerance of islamic extremists is constantly in the news, whilst 'good' muslims are clearly scared of denouncing their actions. Besides that there is the insidious creep of Orwellian thought policing in the rest of society . Not so very long ago it was perfectly OK to express a love for something but then regret that sadly it would be illegal to indulge it - c'est la vie..

Now look at the last line of the previous post, and see that loke has felt the need to add a disclaimer to his thoughts - it's a very worrying trend...

[fedssocr]

I've been traveling to Asia for the last 10 years or so. Typically I spend about a month there at time once a year. I love Thailand, but it's not as interesting as it used to be. The newness wears off. There are just too many places in the world that I want to visit, so going back to Thailand every time just doesn't make sense. I did spend some time there last year after taking a break for a couple of years. I've always only been able to take Pattaya in very small doses. I spent a few days there on this last trip. But don't feel much need to return any time soon. Bangkok is more my style. I've got a trip planned for early 2017 for 5 or 6 days in Thailand and then I will head to Seoul for a week.

With regard to the gay "scene", I think that's declining everywhere. As we've made strides in terms of acceptance, the next generations don't seem to have a need to segregate themselves. So gay bars are dying everywhere. They have wider circles of friends. And if they want to hook up, that's what the apps are for. Otherwise they just go out with their mixed (gay, straight, whatever) group of friends to have a good time.

[gerefan2]

At this rate - admittedly still a slow but, it seems, an accelerating one - I doubt very much whether by 2030 many, or any, of even the currently remaining features of the gay scene in Thailand will be recognisable or even exist at all.

...and there was me thinking we had a problem!

[Daveuk]

I usually make three trips to Asia every year. I've visited Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia and Nepal in addition to Thailand. But since the default purpose of the trips is to have sex with Asian boys I gravitate to Pattaya where my requirement can be met without difficulty. I am a gay sex tourist. There are times when I reflect on the lines of "what the Hell am I doing in this appalling place", but that is forgotten when I get into bed with my latest twinky boy.
I first went to Pattaya fourteen years ago and certainly the gay scene now is a pale shadow of what it was then. In particular I loved the Dongtan gay beach where many boys cerculated within the concessions. That hardly happens now and you even see elderly women on the chairs (Ugh !) Sunee is virtually a ghost town - all that is missing is the tumbleweed !. Sad rows of closed down gogo's. The last time I stayed there was at the Colonial Bar - I saw it was closed a couple of weeks ago.
Unfortunately the place has a hold on me and no doubt I will be back in the autumn for another fix.

[arsenal]

I would agree the gay scene is considerably less than it was although if you factor in the places that ordinary decent whoremongers avoided then the decline is much less pronounced. However while the escort business is still sufficient to satisfy most of us we also have a huge improvement in other things such as great restaurants and (if you like that sort of thing) world class water parks. So all in all I think Pattaya is a better holiday destination than it was when I first started coming here in 2004. And please let's not get too carried away. Even then bars were opening and closing all the time. Rarely did a new go go bar stay open for more than a year.

[AsDaRa]

I started going in October 2014. Too bad I have missed the golden period. But since gay men feeling lust for twinks is universal in world history, you would expect that if Thailand goes down another destination will pop up. Because the demand is there, and where there is demand, soon there will be supply.

Someone on this forum can already see the first signs of what is to become the successor country to Thailand?

[fountainhall]

Someone on this forum can already see the first signs of what is to become the successor country to Thailand?
As far as Asia is concerned, I don’t see anywhere that will take over from Thailand – or what Thailand was. It's hard to say when the beginning of the end actually started. As has been said before, the 1980s and much of the 1990s were the peak for the gay tourist – and not just in Pattaya. Bangkok had loads of bars in several parts of the city, and Chiang Mai and Phuket a great deal more than they have now.

I think it’s hard for us non-Thais to realise that the majority of Thais do not like their country being known worldwide as a sex tourism destination. As has also been discussed before, Thais seem to have no trouble differentiating between sex for Thais and sex for tourists. Second wives, mistresses, boyfriends, prostitution – all have been part and parcel of Thai society probably for centuries, certainly the 20th century and today. To Thais, that is part of their lives. Equally, it is a part of Thailand that foreigners only hear of. I doubt if even a handful of us, no matter how often we have visited going back decades, have ever been admitted entrance to such information or venues.

Some will say this is garbage. Fine! This forum is about opinions as well as fact. I happen not to agree. I just enjoyed my visits in the ‘80s and ‘90s. Actually I’ll go further, I really loved them. Yet I had never once thought about what the Thais might think. As suggested in an earlier post, I absolutely agree it was only when Purachai’s Social Order campaigns started around 2001 that it became clear to me that a vast number of Thais thought these curbs on nighttime entertainment were a good thing. I doubt if much has changed for Thais apart from a little rearrangement of the pieces on their own chessboard. But I will take a punt and agree with Marsilius by saying that this was the date when the end finally started for gay tourists. It has taken 15 years to get to where we are, but with another minister now getting a lot of attention around the world about getting rid of the country’s sex destination label, the decline has dropped down another few rungs of the ladder. The overtly gay commercial sex scene is dying and will soon be on life support.

Of course, as has also been said, there is still a lot of sex available through the apps, massage parlours, saunas etc. But it is now a very, very different scene. We just have to accept the old days are not going to come back.

So where to go from here? The “seismic shift” mentioned by Tobi is virtually worldwide (apart perhaps from parts of Central and South America or Africa). It is not just affecting Thailand. Where the scene is expanding, it is for specific local reasons – not tourism. In other words, what is happening in Taipei, in Tokyo, in Singapore and elsewhere is because of local demand and local entrepreneurs. Demand by foreigners will not - and can never - be more than a tiny fraction of local demand. So there is zero incentive for entrepreneurs to cater to that demand.

When we all revisit this thread in five years, I believe we will be reading of yet more closures, yet more curbs and whatever go-go bars remain being merely quick curiosity items to be viewed for 30 minutes by the avalanche of new tourists from countries like China and India.

[artic55]

I don't know if you have missed the golden period. I think it is more that the scene has changed over the years. Back in the 90's we had to go to the Go-Go's, the bars and the beach to find boys. The scene was more "relaxed" if you know what I mean. Nowadays there are fewer places to go to, but almost all available boys have profiles on dating apps and can be reached there. For the same reason I find it much more easier to find boys for fun in remote corners of the country. The apps have made it easier for the boys to find customers as they have more exposure through the internet, and for us to find them.

In my mind the "Golden period" was golden mainly due to the fact that the scene was not as controlled as it is nowadays, and I don't know if I want that back!! The thing is to adapt to changes, the boys are there we just need to locate them.

I don't see another country replacing Thailand in the near future, but like always it depends on what you are looking for.

[fountainhall]

In my mind the "Golden period" was golden mainly due to the fact that the scene was not as controlled as it is nowadays, and I don't know if I want that back!! .
I would love to see it back. What is totally missing from most of the scene now is pure fun and enjoyment - and I mean before any sex is discussed. You could have tremendous fun just being in a bar, meeting some of the guys and having a few drinks with them. Then there was the novelty for many of us of shows that really were shows put on by gay guys who, again, were having fun. I totally agree that the apps make it easy to find guys almost anywhere in any country. And if sex is the primary object, that's great. But Thailand used to offer so much more than just plain sex. Those days are dying.

[AsDaRa]

When we all revisit this thread in five years,

Since you wrote you already travel to Thailand in the 1980s it is save to assume you approach age 70 (knowing the average age a gay man starts his sex tourism trips is when he has passed his prime, so say around age 40).

Funny to see how at your age (age 70) it is still possible to write "When we revisit in five years". If I was 70 I would be very carefull to write a sentence like that. Assuming I would be alive 5 years from know feels a bit risky :-)

Of course I can be death within 5 years and you can still be alive. I am talking about probabilities of course. I think if I was 90 I would never ever write on a forum "If we were to revisit in 5 years". If I was 70 I would I think dare to say "next year", but feel already uncomfortable to write "in 2 years". Too risky a remark!

[artic55]

I don't know about you but I'm in my 60's and I haven't passed my prime! I totally agree with you fountainhall, gone are the good old days of fun and flirting in the beer bars and Go-Go's of Sunne and I do miss that. What I don't miss from the golden era is the sleaze past that gave Sunne Plaza it's bad reputation.

[francois]

For me,I loved the sleaze of Sunee in years gone by.Would take that anytime compared to what it is like now. Sleazy is not quite the right word, maybe vibrant, lewd, egregious and ribald? :devilsh:

[a447]

Someone on this forum can already see the first signs of what is to become the successor country to Thailand?

I can't see any other country following in Thailand's footsteps. Why would they? The surrounding countries are doing their best to avoid Thailand's sordid reputation.

Sure, there are girlie bars in Phnom Pehn but they appear to be restricted to one or two streets - correct me if I'm wrong. But there are no male gogo bbars in sight.

The sex industry in neighbouring countries is very low key and I think it will probably stay that way.

[GWMinUS]

YEAH! I think it is best to not hook up with guys younger than 18 yo.
But two times in Phuket I offed guys from a Bar and then found when the Guard at the hotel checked their ID they were only 17, actually one was nearer to 16.
Too bad, that ended the evening right there.
But they were very handsome and hot!!
I certainly do not classify myself as a Pederast!!
GWM

[fountainhall]

Since you wrote you already travel to Thailand in the 1980s it is save to assume you approach age 70 (knowing the average age a gay man starts his sex tourism trips is when he has passed his prime, so say around age 40).
AsDaRa, you have a rather annoying habit of making wrong assumptions and then developing your posts from there. I have made it quite clear in other threads that I came to Asia as a young man - to work! Before then, if you had asked me to pinpoint Thailand on a map, I couldn't have done so and I knew absolutely nothing about Thailand's reputation. Since than, unlike you, I have worked exclusively in Asia, mostly Hong Kong. So I certainly did make many dozens of visits to Thailand starting just a few months after my arrival, either for long weekend holidays or en route to somewhere like Singapore or on regular business trips to Europe. So I was making what you call "sex tourism trips" to Thailand long before I reached anything like 40.

As for "approaching 70", aren't we all? If you are 50 or 60 - heck if you are 30 - 70 will still be there on the horizon, only the horizon is a bit further away. I suggest you read this article in the Huffington Post of November 2015. It discusses the now often quoted comment that for many men 60 is now the new 40.


Is 60 really the new 40? In many ways yes, but if given a choice, for me, I’m thinking of embracing the sixties with open arms and I’m excited to make it the best decade of my life.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/meryl-hartstein/is-sixty-the-new-forty_b_8531980.html

I'll admit I have passed my 60th birthday. And I'll further admit that I would not swap the years I have had in Asia for anything - anything! I feel more blessed than you can imagine at having been able to travel extensively, at embracing so many different cultures, at being here at such an historically amazing period (when I arrived in Hong Kong, China's Cultural Revolution had ended only a few years earlier!) - and at meeting so many wonderful gay young Asian men. I have never had to wait for my annual two of three week holiday to come to Asia. This is my home. As a gay man, life in Asia has been just amazing. And it will continue to remain amazing for the next 5, 10, 15 or however many years I have left. If you at 45 or 50 or whatever believe that talking of 5 years hence might be risky at age 60 or 70, I suggest you probably have a pretty dull outlook on life and think more about the end of life than of thoroughly enjoying what life you will continue to have until that day finally comes.

[arsenal]

If Pattaya is to decline and be replaced as a gay tourist hotboyfuckywuckylongdeepsuckysunkissedhomenotmisse d destination then there is only one realistic candidate. Sihanoukville.

[francois]

Since you wrote you already travel to Thailand in the 1980s it is save to assume you approach age 70 (knowing the average age a gay man starts his sex tourism trips is when he has passed his prime, so say around age 40).


Gad! Passed his prime at 40 yo? I started my sex tourism at 50 yo. Ending at 70? I am looking at 80 to think of retiring at the earliest.

[arsenal]

Yes. Having nodgins with an octegenarian Gaul is every 20 year old Thai boys dream off. Francois: After 15 minutes you'll need to stop for a nap.

[artic55]

Arsenal,I take it that you have been to Sihanoukville recently. I have never been there, often though thought about going there. In your opinion is it worth it?

[AsDaRa]

In a Soi Twilight go go bar (show bar) I once saw a 80+ year old. He needed support to walk. He took a boy with him to his hotel. I felt pitty for the boy. He didn't look happy at all. And walked behind the man.

This is typically male: even at age 80+ we still get horny. Can females still get horny at 85? Is that biologically possible?

[arsenal]

artic55: No I haven't been there but it seems to have all the ingredients required to make it a popular gay holiday destination. It;s got a beach and the same weather as Thailand plus being quite underdeveloped there is scope for considerable expanse. I believe that legally there would be no problem with gay go go bars because Cambodia already has massage places. Cambodia also really needs the cash and the country runs a duel currency system. Finally there are already plenty of Cambodian boys doing their stuff in Thailand so we know they are happy to service foreigners, All this adds up to very strong potential.

[Moses]

All this adds up to very strong potential.

...only when SHV will have good connection with rest of the world. Many gay businesses ended up there already just in 1-2 years after start.

[scottish-guy]

In a Soi Twilight go go bar (show bar) I once saw a 80+ year old. He needed support to walk. He took a boy with him to his hotel. I felt pitty for the boy. He didn't look happy at all..

Some years ago, as I was sitting in the Coffee Shop, I saw TWO boys helping a guy who could barely walk into the lift of the Suriwongse Hotel.

The two boys went up in the lift with him and emerged about an hour later.

I just assumed they were tucking him in.

:))

[scottish-guy]

Anyhow - on the subject of being totally gross and unattractive but in one's delusions still thinking you've "got it", it appears that a guy from Northern Ireland has probably cornered the market:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-36878520

[arsenal]

I'd pay good money NOT to see them. Which reminds me, has anyone heard from NIrish recently? Just kidding. But have they?

[scottish-guy]

Yesterday?

http://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/showthread.php?18130-Kuala-Lumpur&p=208329#post208329

[goji]

artic55: No I haven't been there but it [SIHANOUKVILLE] seems to have all the ingredients required to make it a popular gay holiday destination. It;s got a beach and the same weather as Thailand plus being quite underdeveloped there is scope for considerable expanse. I believe that legally there would be no problem with gay go go bars because Cambodia already has massage places. Cambodia also really needs the cash and the country runs a duel currency system. Finally there are already plenty of Cambodian boys doing their stuff in Thailand so we know they are happy to service foreigners, All this adds up to very strong potential.

Potential yes, but that might be the limit of it.
I stayed there at the Cheers Hotel a few years ago. As far as I could find out, that was the only gay establishment in the entire town. Due to lack of demand, the place has been sold and is now an ordinary hotel. The only boys I hooked up with were @ the bar behind Cheers. I got nothing on Gay Romeo or the beach.
That's a real pity, as Sihanoukville has several quiet beaches & some gorgeous islands within reach of boats.

I think the best places in Cambodia for boys are (in order):
1 Phnom Penh
2 Siem Reap
3 Sihanoukville

[Moses]

Potential yes, but that might be the limit of it.
I stayed there at the Cheers Hotel a few years ago. As far as I could find out, that was the only gay establishment in the entire town. Due to lack of demand, the place has been sold and is now an ordinary hotel. The only boys I hooked up with were @ the bar behind Cheers. I got nothing on Gay Romeo or the beach.



We booked 5 Nights in Cheers a gay hotel with bar en restaurant. We arrived and found an empty straight hotel without bar or restaurant. The management should have informed us about the change. The room was nice but sheets very dirty. Bit strange because we were i think the only ones in the hotel. We stood outside waiting. A guy showed up. I asked are you staying here and is it ok. He said yes. He turned out to be working there. Very weird. The guy behind reception was friendly and did his best. The location is bad. Probably not for a gay bar hotel restaurant. For a normal hotel problematic. We left after one day.


https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g325573-d2016269-r250175736-Benny_s_Boutique_Hotel-Sihanoukville_Sihanoukville_Province.html#

it isn't Cheers anymore also it isn't gay anymore...

[francois]

Yes. Having nodgins with an octegenarian Gaul is every 20 year old Thai boys dream off. Francois: After 15 minutes you'll need to stop for a nap.

I keep our nodgins short and sweet like the old ladies dance.

[Nirish guy]

Yes alive and well here thanks Arsenal - and re that N.I politician from reading the local press the guy ( amazingly based on his looks) wasn't delusional at all it seems as whatever website he was using had a trail of "thanks, I really enjoyed that, can we do it again" type posts from several woman, night after night over several weeks !! Go him !! :-)

I actually sent him an email earlier today telling him his only mistake was "apologising" for all of this in the first place as the guy did nothing wrong. But I'm delighted to see that even here in Bible Belt Ulster the newspaper is getting ripped a new one for basically reporting on their front Sunday page " Totally single politician has consensual sex, with legal age women, in the privacy of his hotel room" - I think the guy should actually sue and I hope he does ( but being N.Ireland he won't of course).

But hey fair play to guy, just shows ya, it's the quiet ones ya have to watch it seems ! :-)

[scottish-guy]

Oh I tend to think he IS delusional if he thinks those women were meeting him because they found him physically attractive - which he most certainly is not. Let's face it (as I'm speaking as an ugly whore myself) - he's fucking REPULSIVE and I defy anybody to say otherwise.

No I'm fairly certain the main reason he was getting laid was because he was in a position of power.

If you just cast your mind back to all the thoroughly revoting politicians who've had a string of mistresses (or even wives) over the years: David Mellor springs to mind - and even Robin Cook who resembled a Latvian peasant woman even managed to have affairs.

I'm certainly not decrying the NIrish MPs right to shag who or what he wants - its the idea that anybody would want to see his nude pics that I struggle with

[AsDaRa]

Is it not more likely he paid for the sex? What power did he had that could benefit the women?
If they thought he was rich and it could become a steady relationship, then I understand he didn't have to pay. But power? What power does a local politician have?

[scottish-guy]

Well, without in any way seeking to disparage N Ireland, it's easy to be a big fish in a small pond AsDaRa.

Mr Hussey seems a bit of a colourful character - apparently until recently he claimed £20,000 a year from the public purse to rent what appears to be a totally excessive 2000 sq ft constituency office - and campaigned using an image of Peter Griffin on his literature instead of a photograph!

Of course it could be neither power nor money which has attracted these women - maybe he just has a smashing big cock? Rest assured the nude photos will inevitably get into the public domain and you'll maybe be able to see for yourself!

:))

[Nirish guy]

Actually guys amazingly whilst all of the above comments would normally be bang on in terms of it was about power / money etc apparently ( and amazingly !) neither of them are correct and he literally was simply out there getting laid, for free and without even saying who he was.

Also as someone else said he's only an MLA so no power to speak of anyway and he hid his identity of it ( ha well if you call changing his profile name to Russ instead of his real name Ross lol) and whilst the name wasn't given he website he was posting his pics too didn't seem to be a hooker type website (or I'm sure the newspaper would have made a big thing out of that too) - I'm guessing it was more just "plenty of fish" of something like that.

So, incredible as it seems fair play to the bloke but it does seem he was simply out there getting on with it and shagging all round him and that there are it seems plenty of ( desperate) women here in N.i that are up for it - see, that'll be those God fearing, Christian, Bible Belt, go to church 3 times on a Sunday type for ya !! Dirty Whores the lot of them !! :-)

[arsenal]

I have to agree with NIrish, I don't think he's done anything wrong. We used to live in an age when the ruling classes were sexually liberated and the masses repressed. Now it's the other way round.

[latintopxxx]

How dare u lump me in with " the masses".

[GWMinUS]

POOR FRANCOIS...
You belie him for no reason!!
He is not having "Nodgins", he is at his Hotel having"Whatever"...
Some of the younger Filipino guys I meet just like to talk!!!
And I do not feel they are avoiding the inevitable at all!!
;-)

[Smiles]

How dare u lump me in with " the masses".
Well, for starters you are unbelievably 'lumpen' (Look it up. Descriptive to a 'T'), and certainly a so-called man 'with mass', and lots of it.

(PS ... I would be glad to share ~ by Sawatdee PM ~ the photo I have of Latintopxxx (previously 'Bad Boy Billy' and still a virgin) hidden away in a Photobucket folder. It's a few years old but one can easily extrapolate.)

[arsenal]

Smiles: For Gods' sake man. Is it not bad enough that we have to endure the endless verbiage of Latin without having a fucking photo on the hard drive. I think that even suggesting it warrants a phone call from Amnesty International.

[Smiles]

" ... I think that even suggesting it warrants a phone call from Amnesty International ... "
I'd prefer Greenpeace I think. I can't think of better environment for him, wavering and spewing all over the decks, searching for more blubber to save.

[arsenal]

I'd prefer Greenpeace I think. I can't think of better environment for him, wavering and spewing all over the decks, searching for more blubber to save.

Well perhaps although Greenpeace tend to concern themselves with the higher forms of mammalian life so.........

[loke]

Cambodia and Vietnam , as long as you get used to the apps and forget the go go bar scene , life goes on for boy lovers. Over the legal age I might add 5555