End of life ....

[lukylok]

To change of the usual tip battle, or the recollection of prowesses in the the bedroom and elsewhere,
I would like to know more of the attitude, official and not,in Thailand regarding the end of life.
I am in good health, but before settling definetely in Los I would like to know what I can expect when the balance between pleasure of living and depending more and more of external help, pains, makes the choice of seeking swift end advisable.
Is there something like assisted suicide, as in Switzerland, or euthanasy ?
To reassure everyone, it's thinking forward, I have a very healthy and fulfilling sex life and I am not ready to stop it !

[Nirish guy]

"Is there something like assisted suicide"

Yes it's called renting a condo on the 15th floor and then telling your Thai partner de jour that they're the sole beneficialry in your will ! :-)

[francois]

The only thing regarding end of life that I have heard of is a Do Not Resuscitate Order at a hospital.

[fountainhall]

I realise there has been talk on another thread about the need for medical insurance for those considering moving to the LOS for retirement, but I don't think I have ever heard of anyone who has moved here, especially someone in good health and with a healthy sex life, talk about the end of life and assisted suicide! The whole point of moving to Thailand is surely to enjoy retirement in a more convivial and less expensive environment than back home - not to think about ending up in a state requiring assisted suicide? Maybe I'm the only one, but I never think of the balance between enjoying life and the problems of ageing. Given Thailand's traffic habits, anyone could die just crossing the road here. If I have a major illness, insurance will cover it. I expect most Thai hospitals honour a living will if that is also what your executors request - but I'm sure it needs to be written in Thai. That's no different from the will in Thai you will need for disposal of your property, funds and personal effects. I mean no disrespect, but if you are going to spend time concerned about the end of life, maybe it's better not to move.

[scottish-guy]

As I will be single-handedly wiping out the human race by recklessly and unnecesarily taking 30 Doxycycline tablets a year, the end could come sooner than Luckylok thinks - so he is right to explore his options.

A 7-11 carrier bag over the head is a cheap and cheerful option which would undoubtedly appeal to a thrifty Scot suffering from agonising cancer wished on him by a well-balanced SGT board member.

[mahjongguy]

Thailand can be a great place for the elderly but it's a poor choice for those who want assurance that they can avoid a long and futile struggle at the end. The applicable laws are strict, so doctors cannot and will not provide assistance.

Living Wills with DNR orders are legal here and will probably be obeyed but to be certain of that you need to sign the paperwork in the presence of the hospital's administrative staff.

[francois]

A 7-11 carrier bag over the head is a cheap and cheerful option which would undoubtedly appeal to a thrifty Scot suffering from agonising cancer wished on him by a well-balanced SGT board member.

Likely there are some members who would gladly provide assistance to you in your hour of need.

[2lz2p]

I expect most Thai hospitals honour a living will if that is also what your executors request - but I'm sure it needs to be written in Thai. That's no different from the will in Thai you will need for disposal of your property, funds and personal effects. Living wills are now legal in Thailand - as I understand it, they do not have to be written in Thai - they do have to be signed by witnesses (does not have to be Hospital administrators). But, you apparently have to provide a copy to the hospital. Likewise, last wills and testaments do not have to be written in Thai - but they will have to be translated into Thai for the Courts to accept them for probate.

[mahjongguy]

"...they do have to be signed by witnesses (does not have to be Hospital administrators)."

That may depend on the hospital. Just last month, Bangkok Pattaya Hospital refused to accept a signed and witnessed Living Will from a friend of mine. They insisted that he have it witnessed and signed at the hospital.

[scottish-guy]

Likely there are some members who would gladly provide assistance to you in your hour of need.

Well MiniMee couldn't help with a plastic bag from 7-11 - he says I'm never in Thailand - but in any case I'd regard any other people who want to see someone die in agony for disagreeing with them to be as well-balanced as Tobi .. in other words.............

3706

[Surfcrest]

I would think that Thailand is a long way away from considering "doctor assisted suicide" or "euthanasia". This is something that Canada is just voting on now, that will start with terminal illness and will probably evolve after that into a personal choice, no matter what the circumstances are. This is something I may even see in my lifetime or before the end of my own life, which is good. For people planning ahead, way far ahead, this is not a bad thing to think about and perhaps plan for, especially if you require assistance to survive or you loose the essentials for the quality of life.

Surfcrest

[cdnmatt]

Guys, no offense here, but it's not exactly difficult to commit nearly harmless and immediate suicide if truly wanted.

Strap some explosives you can buy off the black market to your head, sit down in a shallow river, and let 'er rip.

Rent a room for a night at a high-storey hotel, grab a room on the say 30th floor, and launch yourself out the window.

Buy a toy gun, and rush a highly secured military site while acting like a lunatic.

Throw yourself under the MRT a couple seconds before is passes, splitting you into multiple pieces.

Really, no need for end of life orders, suffocating yourself with a plastic bag, or any of that shit. There's a thousand painless ways to go about it if it ever reaches that time.

[Faranglaw]

I would think that Thailand is a long way away from considering "doctor assisted suicide" or "euthanasia". This is something that Canada is just voting on now, that will start with terminal illness and will probably evolve after that into a personal choice, no matter what the circumstances are. This is something I may even see in my lifetime or before the end of my own life, which is good. For people planning ahead, way far ahead, this is not a bad thing to think about and perhaps plan for, especially if you require assistance to survive or you loose the essentials for the quality of life.

Surfcrest

My Thai husband informs me that it is possible to arrange a living will in Thailand, but not possible to get a doctor to perform euthanasia, not legally. You can also arrange for someone to have your power of attorney for the time you are unable to make your own decisions.

I worked for many years with people dealing with chrinic illness and end of life. It is important to do some Advance care planning. The idea that you will be in any position to rent a hotel room and jump out a window is silly. Once a person reaches the point of making such a heavy decision, they won't be in any position to rent hotel rooms or any of the other fantasy suicides we might imagine when we are young and healthy. It's important to choose a person to be your substitute decision maker, someone you can trust and who will do what you would have wanted if able to make your needs known.

Just a few thoughts. Thanks for raising this interesting and important topic.

[Steve1903]

Bottle of pills tucked away in the drawer for that "rainy day" would suffice. That's my ultimate plan anyway. Watched my father fade away over the course of 18 months. The last 9 months were a succession of hospital visits. When the highight of the day becomes someone helping you into a chair in which you will spend the entire time sitting watching the telly until it's time to be carted back to the bedroom then for me it's time to depart. Time and again he'd say "I just want to die" but he could do nothing but sit and suffer.
We treat animals better than that. I won't be waiting around for long if it comes to that.

[fountainhall]

M. . . not possible to get a doctor to perform euthanasia, not legally
I doubt if many actions being illegal in Thailand have ever been much of a deterrent to their actually happening.

[Surfcrest]

Well, it sounds to me as though doctor assisted suicide is a much better option than strapping explosives to yourself or thinking that taking a handful of pills is a painless, glamorous death. I'm guessing that most would probably become unable to throw themselves off a balcony if and when when they finally decided the time had come. If you're considering such a horrible end for yourself, you'd probably support the concept of doctor assisted suicide as a sensible alternative. Quite possibly...at the rate Thailand is evolving and catching up with the rest of the World's values... the idea will at least be considered if not embraced here in Thailand. I'd put my bets on the latter.

Surfcrest

[christianpfc]

cdnmatt's suggestions are dangerous and messy (no guarantee for success and putting others in danger as well), and best considered a joke (not funny by my standards).


A 7-11 carrier bag over the head is a cheap and cheerful option...
Suffocating is not a nice death (from internet, no personal experience). However if you flush the bag with an inert gas to remove the carbon dioxide, you will just fall asleep and never wake up again (from internet, no personal experience). That would be my method of choice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bag

[scottish-guy]

Christian - it was somewhat superfluous to tell us (twice) that you have no personal experience of doing yourself in - we could have figured that out for ourselves!

[cdnmatt]

Cut his throat? That's a little drastic, no?

How would you go about doing this? Just a simple 6 inch blade, a clean cut, and let him bleed out? Maybe go ISIS style and completely behead him with a 6 inch blade? Or maybe tie him up, and go the large machete / sword route -- one swift swipe to send his head rolling?

heh, fuck me...

[Tobi]

How would you go about doing this?

Hmm, I think I'd hang him upside down first, like a kosher chicken!

[bkkguy]

I doubt if many actions being illegal in Thailand have ever been much of a deterrent to their actually happening.

and the reverse is also true - just because the law in Thailand now specifies that the patient's wishes in a living will must be respected does not mean you will necessarily find a hospital, or indeed an individual doctor, willing to do so

discussing this issue with a senior administrator at a large private hospital in Bangkok in August last year just weeks after the final appeal against the original 2010 executive decree was overturned I was originally told that this probably only applied to public hospitals (even though the English translation of the decree I presented stated it applied to all doctors and hospitals) but anyway the chairman and the hospital board, in conjunction with many other major private hospitals, will consider the issue and at some point decide on their response. From recent checks the hospital still has no procedure for a patient to place a living will on file as part of his patient records and the doctors have been issued no guidelines about this issue

the responses you get in the forums on this issue is fairly typical of the uninformed speculation you get on most issues in the forums - this is a serious issue and if you are serious about it you need to discuss this specifically with your preferred doctor/hospital then get a Thai lawyer who specialises in this field who can draw up a living will that accurately outlines your requests and will be accepted by your doctor/hospital

bkkguy

[cdnmatt]

cdnmatt's suggestions are dangerous and messy (no guarantee for success and putting others in danger as well), and best considered a joke (not funny by my standards).

No, I was actually being quite serious. Ok, a couple of those were stupid suggestions, but nonetheless... if it ever comes time, I'm not leaving anything to second chance.

Duct taping some C4 to my head, and detonating it in a secluded river I'm assuming has a high proababilty of success rate.

Same goes for maybe skydiving from 10,000 feet without a parachute. I would imagine that has a low rate of failure.

I'd definitely never use any of the conventional methods -- hangings, pills, electrocution, etc. We've all heard horror stories about those going bad. Hell, I've heard stories where people shot themselves in the face, and instead of dieing, ended up in excruiciating pain & surgery for months, then had to live the rest of their lives without eyes or a nose.

Sorry, but if I'm going to do suicide, I'm going to ensure it gets done right. As for doctor assisted suicide, I don't know, I'd have to reseach it more, especially the exact chemicals they use. Considering the number of botched lethal injections in the US over the last several years, can't say I'm too confident in it.

[Tobi]

A simple and painless way to go is to take a massive overdose of heroin, a drug which shouldn't be too hard to find in most major metropolises.

[cdnmatt]

A simple and painless way to go is to take a massive overdose of heroin, a drug which shouldn't be too hard to find in most major metropolises.

Yeah, but it would be painful as hell for the ~3 hours it takes to kill you. Same as why I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about doctor assisted suicide. What happens if it gets botched, and my last few hours of being alive are in a pain that I never knew existed, as I lay there while all my internal organs and muscles are dissolving?

Fuck that, let's go skydiving. :)

[Tobi]

What?! If you use a large enough dose of heroin, you'll be dead before you've finished pushing the plunger all the way down!!

[cdnmatt]

My apologies Heisenberg, I don't have much experience with heroin, so maybe I'm wrong.

heh, sorry... I'm in the middle of watching the Breaking Bad series again. Too bad they discontinued it. Good show.

[Tobi]

Aw, a box set binge, fab. :)

[frequent]

heh, sorry... I'm in the middle of watching the Breaking Bad series again. Too bad they discontinued it. Good show.
Since the basis of the show is that the hero has a terminal disease what did you want to happen so that it could continue? He rises from the dead on the third day?

[bkkguy]

Since the basis of the show is that the hero has a terminal disease what did you want to happen so that it could continue? He rises from the dead on the third day?

it's not like it hasn't been done before, and they've managed to pull it off for much longer then 13 weeks!

bkkguy

[Surfcrest]

A simple and painless way to go is to take a massive overdose of heroin, a drug which shouldn't be too hard to find in most major metropolises.
Oh, I'm sure most people wouldn't know how to handle street heroin, let alone find a vein to inject it in. Besides, if that didn't work one might forget they wanted to die and find a whole new passion for life. Here in Canada we're number 2 in the world for overdose deaths behind our friends to the south, with a fraction of the population of the US. A great number of those deaths happen right here, on the lower East-side of downtown Vancouver. The killer these days is not heroin, it's Fentanyl, a synthetic street drug out of China that backroom labs add to other street drugs to make them more potent. I'm sure that one would be easier than heroin, although still not an easy out.

These days, I think Social Media has the power to bring about change, if not express the people's desire for change. Doctor assisted suicide just makes sense in an ethical society, which a lot of countries (my own included) are rapidly moving towards, if not are there already. I think if people support it and make it an issue, even here in Thailand (perhaps delayed until democracy returns) then it could become a reality. Who knows, maybe they could add it to the medical tourism list to cut down on the number of balcony dives. They could have it on Koh Tao.

Surfcrest

[cdnmatt]

A great number of those deaths happen right here, on the lower East-side of downtown Vancouver.

Vancouver is crazy like that, isn't it? One minute you're wandering around Gastown filled with fanciful yuppie shops & boutiques, then you literally walk a single block over, and you're surrounded by a bunch of schizophrenic heroin addicts who are running around talking to themselves.

[francois]

I like that, medical tourism for an end of life culmination. As I recall, there was a time not long ago when meds for euthanasia of animals were readily available from veterinary clinics which did promote medical tourism. But maybe not now?

[frequent]

The drug of choice in "Exit" circles is nembutal, widely available in Thailand (and, I think, Mexico). I'm fairly certain it's administered orally not intravenously http://veasb.blogspot.com/2015/02/flying-to-thailand-for-nembutal.html

Every ex-pat retiree should keep some on hand

[Nirish guy]

Jesus this has to be the darkest thread ever posted on the board :-( My goodness are things THAT bad for some of us ? I hope not. Go outside, take a breath, smell the roses, surely being alive is better than the alternative for most of us still ?

[francois]

A breath of fresh air and roses in Pattaya?

Read this sad case:

http://pattayaone.net/pattaya-news/crime/223408/senior-american-cancer-sufferer-commits-heart-breaking-suicide/

[Nirish guy]

:-( a sad case indeed.

[scottish-guy]

Yes, extremely sad.

Despite it crossing my mind umpteen times (mostly whilst inebriated to a various extent), I don't know if I would ever fully move or retire to Thailand (or Vietnam)as - unless Camelot finally honours their end of the deal I understood I have with them - I'm not going to have the unlimited funds which I believe are necessary to live the lifestyle you want and to be able to take care of all eventualities, such as a slow terminal illness.

It would make sense to me to ensure that I spent however many months per year is necessary in my home country to ensure I qualify for free NHS medical care should I ever need it.

So many people seem to uproot themselves and settle in Thailand almost on a whim, and without little consideration of how things might pan out

[Nirish guy]

You'll not have to worry about end of life care, one quick phone call and meeting with Tobi and that'll be you sorted in that regard anyway sure.

Man dear between Neal and Tobi it seems you've more contracts on your person than the average lawyer ! :-)

[scottish-guy]

So true - although Neal is supposed to be dead (as people keep asserting without offering any evidence whatsoever), so if Neal's contract is still "live" there has actually been THREE people after me (Neal, Tobi, and A.N. Other)

My only consolation is that at least Mini Mee won't bother putting out a contract - as he "knows" I haven't been in Thailand for at least 20 years (if ever), so it would be highly unlikely to be successfully executed!

[Surfcrest]

Well, let's not turn this thread into being about that a second time please.

If you ever get a chance, please check out Julienne Moore's performance in Still Alice, a film that came out a year or so back about a doctor who gets diagnosed with Alzheimer's Disease and the struggles she goes through as she becomes more and more disabled by the condition. It talks about her preplanning her own death and then losing the capacity to follow through when it was time. Although just a movie, these are the realities of life with chronic conditions or terminal illnesses that take many.

https://youtu.be/ZrXrZ5iiR0o

Surfcrest

[francois]

Thank you Surfcrest, after viewing Still Alice, that did cheer me up! Yes, a very good movie.

Actually I viewed that movie while on my last flight here to Thailand. At the conclusion I was hoping the airplane would crash and end it all.

But to answer NIrishguy's question:

..surely being alive is better than the alternative for most of us still ?

I think being dead is a better alternative in certain cases.

[lukylok]

I think being dead is a better alternative in certain cases.

That is exactly the situation I had in mind when I started this thread.

Many people refuse to consider that their lives will end some day.

Curious that nobody mentionned exsanguination, which should be easy with all the anti-coagulants our cardiologists insist we take !

I am happy to see that we could have a serious thread !

In no hurry to try any of the methods suggested, but satisfied to know a little more.

[fountainhall]

One astonishing news item in the last day or so is that someone as controlling and determined to protect both his privacy and his business affairs as Prince left no will. That seems to me inconceivable. Presumably, despite a fortune estimated to be in the region of $300 million with perhaps hundreds of millions more to come in future years, he just did not expect death to come at such a relatively early age. If so, his lawyer should have been fired years ago!

But it serves as a timely reminder to those of us living in Thailand and with any assets here that a Will written in Thai is vital if we want to be in control of who gets those assets. My understanding is that without such a document, as in Prince's case the Courts will award those assets to your closest living relative/s. So your Thai bf, his family and others here you might wish to leave something to after your death would legally not be entitled to receive anything.

Oh, and make sure that will is in place where the authorities will find easily it!

[christianpfc]

Curious that nobody mentionned exsanguination, which should be easy with all the anti-coagulants our cardiologists insist we take !
I would prefer an un-bloody end. "Exsanguination" is Latin* for "bloody mess" (in the literal sense), unless you have a bathtub so they can flush your blood away.

*Joke, translation would be rather "draining/removal of blood"

Everyone wanting to leave something to his Thai boyfriend and his family should ask himself if that money will be put into good use. Even in Europe, there are stories about people who win millions in the lottery and after some years, they are broke and without a job, in a worse situation than before.

Everyone wanting to put me in their will, contact me by PM.

[francois]

Oh, and make sure that will is in place where the authorities will find easily it!

And where greedy relatives cannot find it! I know of a case or two where family members were not happy with the deceased's Will and conveniently destroyed it since estate was not going to them.

[frequent]

But it serves as a timely reminder to those of us living in Thailand and with any assets here that a Will written in Thai is vital if we want to be in control of who gets those assets. My understanding is that without such a document, as in Prince's case the Courts will award those assets to your closest living relative/s. So your Thai bf, his family and others here you might wish to leave something to after your death would legally not be entitled to receive anything.

Oh, and make sure that will is in place where the authorities will find easily it!

Not sure if your ambiguity is intentional, but a Thai Will only covers assets in Thailand. If your bank account is in your home country and you transfer enough to live comfortably but no more, and you don't own a condo, a Thai will is going to have close to zero impact.

[fountainhall]

Not sure if your ambiguity is intentional, but a Thai Will only covers assets in Thailand. If your bank account is in your home country and you transfer enough to live comfortably but no more, and you don't own a condo, a Thai will is going to have close to zero impact.
I'm curious. Where is the ambiguity? What I wrote was -

But it serves as a timely reminder to those of us living in Thailand and with any assets here . . .

[francois]

While on the topic of End of Life, a gentleman, par excellence, John Lewis, aka, TOQ, passed away today as reported on Gaybuttonthai.com

http://gaybuttonthai.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7778

[lukylok]

I had the chance to meet him a few times and he was indeed a "gentleman".

RIP

[Surfcrest]

That's terrible news, I met him a few years back...a most wonderful man.

Surfcrest

[Surfcrest]

It was confirmed that Prince died of a Fentanyl overdose.

http://mashable.com/2016/06/02/prince-died-opioid-overdose/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link#UJBLiSexmEqz

Surfcrest