ผม vs. ฉน

[cdnmatt]

If you're a foreigner learning Thai, you'll learn that:

ผท (pom) = I (male)
ฉน (chan) = I (female)

So far, when having conversaions with people and they refer to themselves as ฉน, I immediately assume they're a ladyboy, or at least a ladyboy in the making. I think I must be wrong on this though, unless there's a lot of straight acting, secretive lady boys out there. I'm assuming you just have to be gay, and not a ladyboy, in order to reference yourself as ฉน (chan)?

There's quite a few out there who don't seem to have any inclination to grow tits or have their dicks cut off, but yet refer to themselves as ฉน, leaving me a little confused, because I was taught only females referred to themselves as ฉน.

Any insight? Christian, perhaps?

[newalaan2]

If you're a foreigner learning Thai, you'll learn that:

ผท (pom) = I (male)
ฉน (chan) = I (female)

So far, when having conversaions with people and they refer to themselves as ฉน, I immediately assume they're a ladyboy, or at least a ladyboy in the making. I think I must be wrong on this though, unless there's a lot of straight acting, secretive lady boys out there. I'm assuming you just have to be gay, and not a ladyboy, in order to reference yourself as ฉน (chan)?

There's quite a few out there who don't seem to have any inclination to grow tits or have their dicks cut off, but yet refer to themselves as ฉน, leaving me a little confused, because I was taught only females referred to themselves as ฉน.

Any insight? Christian, perhaps?
Don't have that much experience in conversation (that I've specifically noticed) for Pom and Chan, but more when Ka is used by males. Its not about tits or dicks its more about 'roles' I think. Just about every gay thai male I have close contact with who considers themselves the 'bottom' half of an arrangement uses Ka when finishing a sentence. Mostly it is in (pretend) jest, but it reflects reality. So I think ladyboys and gay lads who consider themselves 'queens' rather than 'kings' would certainly refer to themselves with female references especially in known company. I would imagine many of the more very queeny types would use that on every occasion.

I consider my bf as straight acting when out and about, most guys we meet cannot say for sure if he is king or queen, or most think he is more king type, but he is in the queen role in our relationship and when he talks on the phone with gay friends he always says "hello ka" or whatever with 'ka'at the end. Even in the Issan village the queen types use 'ka' all the time. Nobody bats an eyelid.

[llz]

Newalaan is absolutely right about the use and signification of the end particles.
As for the pronouns, ฉัน can be used by both males and females, but females use it in most circumstances (except very formal ones when they use ดิฉัน - dichan), whereas it is more informal and intimate when used by men. I often heard gay queens and ladyboys using ดิฉัน as a joke.
Personally I sometimes use พี่ (phii, dropped/long tone) when speaking to younger people, which happens quite often ... Speaking among themselves, the boys will always use กู (koo) but it would be totally inappropriate to use it as a farang or as a boy speaking to a farang. Anyway pronouns are mostly omitted in informal conversation when the context is clear.
BTW there is no such word in thai language like ฉน, which would be pronounced as chon (rising/short tone). "I" is ฉัน -chan, formally rising/short tone and informally high/short tone.

[cdnmatt]

Personally I sometimes use พี่ (phii, dropped/long tone) when speaking to younger people

I'm assuming you get some smiles when saying that? :)

You say พี่ (phii) to reference older people, and say น้อง (naawng) to reference younger people. Just take a young guy out for dinner, and watch him yell out "phii!!!!" every time he needs something. :)

Never heard any guys use "ka" at the end of a sentence though, except when they were 100% ladyboys and proud of it. heh, I remember I screwed the "krap" and "ka" thing up at the beginning, as I thought it translated to "sir" and "madame". So when I went to 7/11 say, and it was a female clerk, I would say "khawp khun ka", and walk away with a smile thinking I was being polite. Later on I realized the "krap" and "ka" depends on your gender, not the gender of the person you're talking to.

And yes, sorry, I misspelt it. I meant ฉัน.

[christianpfc]

I rarely hear chan in spoken Thai or read it in written Thai, I cannot comment on its use other than what I know from books.

The last use I clearly remember was 2 or 3 years ago (!!!) when a Thai friend said on the phone to his boyfriend "ฉันรักเธอ chăn rák ter" - "I love you", whereas "phom rak kun" which you find in language books would be very formal and awkward in such circumstances.

Alternative spelling and pronunciation see here https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ฉัน

[pong]

Most katoeys I've heard use ka. Or something that sounds more like ''keh''. Remember that old book TMOT had something about that. (sorry here in EUR the Thai letters are hard to find). Normal gays always use khrap.
Using pom/chan is quite rare for Thai-more often they use their own nickname to tell about themselves: like ''auto/coke'' (=I) come from Udorn and have been in BKK for 3 years now.

[BonTong]

I come from Chiang Mai, Jiaow.

[cdnmatt]

I rarely hear chan in spoken Thai or read it in written Thai, I cannot comment on its use other than what I know from books.

Really? People here seem to use it all the time, at least in written Thai. Thinking about it, you're right, I don't think I've heard it spoken too much. Here, tonight was the latest example, and this is from a 26 year old med student of all things. I asked how to put "that's why..." at the front of a sentence. Previously, I always just said ทำไม (tam-mai), but I know that's wrong, as it's a question particle.

We used the example "That's why I eat lots of vegetables", and the sentence he gave was: แหล่ะคือเหตุผล ทีฉันกินผักเยอะ

Ok, not a chance in hell I'm going to be able to pronounce that properly, as too many small sounds. Nonethless, notice the ฉัน in there? He just threw that in, and I could be wrong, but I'm pretty confident he's not interested in hormone treatment. So I guess pom / chan are interchangable if you're gay, or? Because lots of people use it when chating (written Thai) with me.

Maybe I have this mixed up, and "chan" is somewhat of a soft-spoken version of "pom" for gay people? You don't really need to be a female (or want to be one), but can still use it if you're a sweet, shy type of guy?

[lego]

I've heard ฉัน being used by males who aren't gay, especially when they are talking sweet to their girlfriends or wives. In general, there seems to be a tendency for male Thais to use softer or even more feminine terms when talking to their female partners or also young daughters. I also recall at least one music video with a male singer referring to himself as ฉัน and without any gay context.

[Yraen]

OK, so slightly off-thread but related.

I often hear His Lordship using krap pom or sometime kaa pom when I would have expected chai or dai.
Is it just an acknowledgement similar to krap or something with a subtler meaning?

Over to the Brains Trust. :)

[cdnmatt]

I often hear His Lordship using krap pom or sometime kaa pom when I would have expected chai or dai.
Is it just an acknowledgement similar to krap or something with a subtler meaning?

Yep, exactly, it's basically just a respectful acknowledgement. Think of it as a quick, informal, friendly "thanks".

So if you want to be polite and say thank you, you would use "kawp khun krap". If it's for example, a small store you frequent and you're familiar with the clerk, then a simple "kra pom" works just fine.

[lego]

I just watched the movie Triple 9 at a Bangkok cinema. Police uncle talking to his police nephew, Thai subtitles again translate his spoken "I" as "ฉัน". It's probably quite common even between real men, but I hadn't really been on the lookout before this thread popped up.

[cdnmatt]

Ok, thanks lego. So I guess I had it mixed up? If you're a foriegner learning Thai, you'll learn that "pom" / "chan" depends on your gender, and that's it. Apparently that's wrong, and it actually depends on the context of the conversation, not the gender you are.

In that case, cool. That means lots of people are chatting to me in a sweet context, and I don't have to run away thinking, "ahhh, ladyboy!". :)