Possible Gogo Bar Business Model

[arsenal]

Here is my suggestion for a possibly successful gogo bar.
1. Pay the boys nothing but charge them 1000 baht a month to ply their trade in the bar. They can live above the bar (free) if they choose to.
2. No off fees so hopefully their offs would greatly increase and it's a direct challenge to the apps.
3. Drink prices of 150 baht for all drinks including that for the boy.
4. The customer must buy the boy a drink before he can off him.
5. An agreement of what the boy will do and how much the customer will tip him is made prior to the off.

Feel free to rip this to shreds.

[cdnmatt]

No off fees, and 150 (times 2) drink prices, plus free accomodation for the boys (if wanted)? Where does the bar make any money? Plus I could be mistaken, but believe most bars supply a simple 30 baht meal to the boys for supper as well.

[arsenal]

The boys are paying 1000 baht a month. Plus I also believe that the no off fees would attract considerably more customers than many of the bars that currently operate. As I said, it's a challenge to the apps.

[cdnmatt]

Well, I'm sure no off fees would attract more customers. Same as I'm sure 60 baht beer would attact more customers too.

But where is the profits for the bar?

[arsenal]

High drink prices, lack of boys and the use of apps are three reasons many posters mention to explain the demise of gogo bars. This deals with two clearly and would hopefully bring more boys who want to work there on the basis they would be more likely to get an off. Profits from drink sales and boys rent.

[cdnmatt]

Oh, sorry, I read your intial post wrong. Instead of paying them to work at the bar, you want to charge them 1000 baht/month to work there. Yeah, that might not go over too well either.

I'll stick with what I said. Make a place where people are comfortable to relax in, just like a typical pub / restaurant we're used to, except catered towards the gay community. Simple as that. Right now, it's the opposite. Who here feels comfortable in a go-go- bar? Almost guranteed, basically nobody. It's a place you go in, do your business quickly, and get out. Switch it up so it's a place you want to relax for a couple hours, and all of a sudden not only do customers increase, but the amount they spend probably goes up by 3 or 4 fold.

[arsenal]

I agree that charging them 1000 baht a month might not go down well although it's less than most of them pay now. However the idea is that they would get 10-15 offs instead of the 4 to 5 most of them get now so their actual income would be much higher. Higher income means more boys would want to work there. It's just an idea, there's no guarantee it would work.
Charging 250 baht for a drink and a 400 baht off fee didn't help Wild West Boys so maybe it's time to try something new.

[christianpfc]

1. I think this wouldn't work at all. I would pay the boy 100 Baht per day (set an amount of time he has to be in the bar, like 4 hours). Provide free basic accommodation is a good idea (practiced in some bars already), reduces time and trouble (delays) getting to work.
2.+4. Instead of having to buy a drink for the boy, a reasonable off fee (300 Baht?). Let's face it: I don't want to sit and chat and drink with the boy in the bar, I want to fuck in my room. The little talking that is necessary for me to establish a common ground can be done without a drink. I often do so (might have to fend off staff who pester me for boy drink).
3. That's reasonable. Especially I like one price for all.
5. That's already common practice, and it doesn't work (numerous report where the boy reneges on the deal).

Ban smoking (I have no statics how many people shun a bar that allows smoking versus how many people go there because they can smoke, however comments on the forums suggest that the first number is far bigger then the second).

Possibly even ban mobile phone, for boys and and even for customers? (Could be justified by no photo policy.) I sometimes play with my phone if nothing interesting is on stage and can't decide what to do next. I vaguely remember one case where staff in Classic Boys in Bangkok told me to put my phone away.

Take a look at girly bars which have a different price model (from stickmanweekly): cheap drinks (150 Baht ?) and high tips (3000 Baht short time?).

[Moses]

Ban smoking (I have no statics how many people shun a bar that allows smoking versus how many people go there because they can smoke, however comments on the forums suggest that the first number is far bigger then the second).

They never will ban till govt restriction. Forum isn't fair representative: most of tourists aren't English speaking tourists - Chinese are smokers in 3/4, Japanese are smokers in 3/4, Russian are smokers in 50%, Malaysians are smokers about 50%. I mean older generations, youngsters don't visit bars - they visit clubs. And mainstream in Thai tourism now - Chinese.

I think new fast growing boyshop will be shop with Caucasian guys in staff (if they will found way to get workpermit) - with boys for Chinese and other Asians.

[goji]

I agree that charging them 1000 baht a month might not go down well although it's less than most of them pay now. However the idea is that they would get 10-15 offs instead of the 4 to 5 most of them get now so their actual income would be much higher. Higher income means more boys would want to work there. It's just an idea, there's no guarantee it would work.
Charging 250 baht for a drink and a 400 baht off fee didn't help Wild West Boys so maybe it's time to try something new.


1 Even if your business model increased the number of offs, I very much doubt the average bar boy has the financial nous to do the maths and pay up his 1000 every month. So you have an empty gogo bar, which makes the 150 baht drinks look expensive.

2 Existing market performance shows low prices are not the way to success with a gogo bar. The lowest cost gogos have been in Sunnee Plaza and that's where there has been the largest percentage drop in gogo bar numbers.

I'd settle for a format which resembles a scaled up Euroboys.

[arsenal]

Christian: In it's heyday most of the staff at Krazy were freelance and that did very well. Also Scandic always has lots of boys outside but very few customers, probably due to it's terrible reputation so variants of this model have worked.. No salary and no off fee to a large extent is simply cutting out the middle man. Almost no boy will renege on the deal if the deal is discussed clearly beforehand. Smoking is a different issue. For a two week holiday in Pattaya most punters will go to any individual gogo bar perhaps twice. But with low prices and no off fee plus a changing set of boys every night their visits wold be likely to increase to maybe 8 times.

Goji: I really did mean in Boyztown. The customer base in Sunee is two small and too stingy these days. The idea is that some of the savings on off fees are passed to the boy. There have been several versions of a scaled up Euroboys but they didn't seem to work very well.

[fountainhall]

They never will ban till govt restriction. Forum isn't fair representative: most of tourists aren't English speaking tourists - Chinese are smokers in 3/4, Japanese are smokers in 3/4, Russian are smokers in 50%, Malaysians are smokers about 50%.
The government has indeed introduced no smoking regulations and smoking is not legally permitted in bars! I recall a few years ago asking the farang co-owner of Solid Bar why he monopolised a table with drinks for the 5 best looking boys despite there being other customers, at least one of whom was interested in one of the boys. All were smoking. I pointed to the 3 large No-Smoking signs and asked him politely if they'd please all stop smoking. He said if he did not let his customers smoke, he would have no customers!! I then suggested that since he was monopolising the best looking boys, he was lucky he had any customers at all! Solid closed about a year later.

But going back to other comments here about boys paying fees, bars paying the boys fees, lower drinks prices, lower off fees, getting rid of touts and pushy mammalians etc., no-one has actually addressed the root cause of the problem IMHO! On my very rare visits to Pattaya, I felt that the original owner of Krazy Dragon and Happy Boys (was that the name of the bar about 100 meters up from Sunee?) had at least made valiant attempts to vary the model and keep drinks prices quite low. But both bars have died! About 16 years ago, a faring opened X-treme Bar in Soi Twilight and attempted to get away from the sex show model with some excellent and cute dancers and near professional dance routines along with the usual batch of go-go boys. That was actually fun and the dancers were happy to sit with you. But it just could not make money.

Unless an owner is in the business as a vanity project for whom making money - or even maintaining the value of the brand - is not a primary concern, bar owners have to make some element of profit. Period! Merely to say reducing prices will automatically increase visitors is, I reckon, far too simplistic. The fact is that whilst some guys like going to bars, these numbers have been vastly reduced. The average punter in Bangkok is now the Asian visitor - not the farang out to have a great time in the bars virtually every night of his holiday. Perhaps it's an age issue. To those in the older generation, the bar scene used to be fun, inexpensive and a great way to spend a couple of hours. At week-ends, bars used to be packed with Thais as well as farang. How often are Thais seen in bars now? Plus the younger generation, I expect, are now far more into the instant gratification they can get from the apps, from saunas and discos.

Add into that mix the results of Thaksin's social order campaigns which are now quite in evidence and you have an environment where I cannot see how anything can stop the further reduction of go-go bars. Perhaps a couple will eventually remain in Bangkok and a few in Pattaya. Rather as Museum exhibits.

[francois]

Goji: I really did mean in Boyztown. The customer base in Sunee is two small and too stingy these days.

Stingy in Sunee? I see more money passed to the boyz in Sunee than ever in Boyztown.

[Oliver]

Interesting post. I had the same experience at Solid without realising that the falang who monopolised the cutest guys was the owner. And yes, I remember X-treme; The dancers worked very hard for a derisory number of punters. I felt sorry for them and, eventually, too embarrassed to go. A pity; I'd be tempted if one of the four (sic) almost identical khatoey shows in Boyztown put on something like that.
The problem now is that my generation- and we were the ones who "made" the go-go scene in the 90s- is dying out or too infirm to make the journey to Thailand. Furthermore, a number of us are now in LTRs, and if there's one thing my partner doesn't want to do it is to visit a go-go bar.
Things have changed. When my generation first visited Thailand we found a sexual freedom that had been denied to us back home in our youth. Younger gay men no longer need to fly six thousand miles to find theirs theirs.

[bucknaway]

I spoke with a friend that works at WWB abd he said the bar is changing and will reopen soon.

[neddy3]

Yes, the former owner of Solid was a master at showing complete disregard for his customers.

And I agree with the comments about Xtreme.

[neddy3]

I spoke with a friend that works at WWB abd he said the bar is changing and will reopen soon.

One can hope. Certainly some change was needed.

Currently a curious venue for a restaurant!

[bucknaway]

One can hope. Certainly some change was needed.

Currently a curious venue for a restaurant!

I think it's still going to be a gogo bar....

[fountainhall]

I do think it's important to remember that the whole go-go bar industry only started up less than 50 years ago. I believe the first bar in Bangkok was opened in 1969. Pattaya's first opened 9 year later. Not surprisingly, all the first ones were girlie bars. The reason? The sudden and regular influx of hundreds of thousands of American GIs on R&R leave during the Vietnam War. I'm not sure when Bangkok's first gay go-go bar opened, but there were certainly a couple on my first visit in 1979. Pattaya's was again a few years later.

After the GIs left, the industry adapted to fit the tourist trade. As Oliver points out, the gay bars offered Thais and those of us who visited regularly - my favourites were Apollo in Soi 4 where everyone was incredibly friendly and the original Barbiery on Suriwong opposite Soi Twilight where the shows were nothing short of incredible - the luxury of a sexual freedom still relatively new to us. This perhaps explains why the younger Asian visitors still not quite used to sexual freedom nowadays find in them a roughly similar attraction - despite the fun having disappeared from the business.

[lego]

What I would like to see is a gay equivalent of the infamous Sukhumvit Soi 7 Beer Garden in Bangkok. Strictly freelance, half decent food and drinks at modest prices. That has some elements of arsenal's and cdnmatt's proposals, and I could imagine that it would work out well for all parties concerned.

[aussie_]

Oscar's Bar in Boyztown were handing out leaflets recently advertising a third floor cruising area available from 1000am each day till late afternoon. Sexy swimwear shop available on the second floor. I would visit go go bars in the late afternoon if they were open at that time.

[francois]

Not really a cruising area; more like a place to hold a one-on-one discussion of current world affairs with one of the freelancers who ply their trade in front of Oscars.

[frequentfliers]

Not really a cruising area; more like a place to hold a one-on-one discussion of current world affairs with one of the freelancers who ply their trade in front of Oscars.

Always liked Oscars.Especially when David was there.

[frequentfliers]

With Funny Boys now for sale,maybe one of the posters here with all the great ideas might get involved.It could do with some new ideas.Place is a shadow of what it was.

[lonelywombat]

Over the weekend I caught up with some former Pattaya regulars who made some interesting comments.

First the BoyBoyBoys bar used to have an area where non bar boys could dance to the music in a separate area and also buy drinks. This started around midnight and when the bar closed they moved across the road to Cafe Royale where they hosted an all night operation.

Cafe Royale allowed bar boys from all bars in if dressed cleanly and the boys drinks kept the punters attention and interest whilst keeping the bar takings turning over at an excellent rate.

The point stressed was in most cases few of the boys were taken off, there was contact in the toilets and short time rooms were always available.

One recent visitor raised he saw a regular boy from Gayromeo in a Sunee bar, getting paid 20 baht to be jacked off in public. He called the boy over bought him a drink and asked him why he did this. He said he needed money to eat. He gave him a good tip after satisfying himself the boy was not on drugs.

The comments about free lancers has been mentioned. I know it is about cutting costs. But there are many who get satisfied during the daylight hours or have boy friends,that seek entertainment, the bar boys mixing in the bar allows them to flirt without a mamasan inflicting her own rules

[aussie_]

I was at Cupidol go go last night. My beer was 180 baht with the Mamasan pestering me often to buy boy drinks as if they were a bargain price at 200 baht. She then bad mouthed me to a waiter in Thai with a smile on her face as I refused her offer. I would rather tip the two guys I liked on stage directly last night as I was not looking to off anyone. Great business model, not. Mamasans deter me from going to some bars.

[neddy3]

Sadly, she is typical of her species.

[lonelywombat]

I have had a few enquiries re my post.

First BBB{Ambiance} Cafe Royale and Copa all have hotel licences and licence laws may be different for them, but probably unchanged for after hours trade.

It may not have occurred to the new owners at Ambiance or Cafe Royale how to exploit, but certainly if some bars can have street parties to 4/5AM in the street, why not the hotels.

I have been told Oscars has later closing times but too small for something similar

I am not a late night visitor to Sunee. I have been told that several bars open much later than others. Some did/ do have free lancers but leave the bar in the hands of Thai staff.

You asked for opinions?

[scottish-guy]

I don't know how or why we got on to the subject, but LRC threw the freelancers out years ago as did Surawong Hotel Coffee Shop. Both of which used to be great for all-day/late-night hook ups

Doubt they'll be encouraged back at either venue anytime soon

[fountainhall]

I have finally managed to locate a long thread on this subject that was aired on gaythailand.com five years ago. The interest is primarily shamelessmack's idea as a new model for a go-go bar based on the comments made by members about the bars in the 1980s and 90s (Post #3). This he described in detail and illustrated with a design concept. For more recent members, shamelessmack ran an excellent blog on gay experiences in Thailand and occasionally other countries. His comments were always interesting and often fascinating. For massage parlours, he had developed an extremely useful template for those looking for a certain type of massage boy in the various massage places around Bangkok.

Unfortunately he stopped posting soon after this thread and his blog became private. He is sorely missed. He occasionally posted in chat rooms as macaroni 21. For those interested, I quote the entire thread on the link below. Here is shamelessmack's idea (since the post is too long for the available word count, I have split it into two) -

PART 1

Posted 08 January 2011 - 07:07 PM
Lonelywombat's description of Twilight was spot on. Like him, I remember the place with great fondness, as Fountainhall and, I am sure, many others do too.

The interesting question is why do we hold it with such fondness? I'm unable to answer it, even for myself.

Was it simply because of the novelty factor in its time, now augmented through rosy memory? If an identical bar opened today, would we shrug "been there, done that" and not give it a second look?

Was it because we were younger, with more libido and less jaded? Was it because the crowd-feel was different from today's crowds?

Something tells me that what I miss most is the intimacy where the boys come up to you uninvited and lets you have a feel -- no obligation to buy him a drink -- or where the boy dances near the pillar barely an arm's length away from one's stool.

I do think that the days of the "spectacle"-type shows are nearing an end, i.e. the idea of a big central stage, with customers sitting quietly a distance away. It's too detached. The Wow factor made up for it, but it's wearing off fast. That said, two years after they end, others will reminisce achingly about the glory days of the shows {tongue out smiley} and diss whatever will have replaced them.

----

I ask myself, if I were to launch a new bar, how would I do it, bearing in mind the economic trends?

Etrend 1: Boys expect to earn more as cost of living rises.

Etrend 2: Good-looking, good attitude boys may be scarcer, so trying to stock a bar with 100 boys (like Dream Boy today) would be unrealistic. Perhaps 30 - 40 boys would be max.

Etrend 3: The "arms-race" of doing ever more elaborate shows that need to be re-engineered frequently to keep them fresh costs an arm and a leg.

Etrend 4: Audience numbers will be flat until the great wave from China materialises. . .

Etrend 5: Even then, the Chinese may never be all that keen to off (reasons explained in the other thread Holiday Sunday Numbers Seem Down), but will likely be prepared to pay a small premium for small shows and nude dancing, something they don't get in their home country.

---

How will I address these issues? Perhaps I would hypothetically build a bar with a layout like this:

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg37/macaroni21_2008/gaythailand/twilight_redux_2.gif

http://www.gaythailand.com/forums/topic/6548-original-twilight-bar-bangkok/

[fountainhall]

Here is the second part of the post by shamlessmack -

PART 2

The operational model will be rather different from current, in response to each of the 5 economic trends mentioned above.

But first, I'll walk you (as customer) through the bar:

1. No women, no Thais under 20 years old, allowed.

2. No smoking inside the bar.

3. You enter and receive a number tag from the cashier (like in a sauna). All purchases made inside the bar will be charged to that number; you settle the account on departure. Perhaps a cover charge (200 baht?) can be paid on entry if the competitive environment allows it. That prepaid cover charge can be consummable, i.e. it is set off as a credit against purchases of drinks.

4. In the main salon, you will see several boys dancing in their briefs on the stage behind the bar. You are free to just sit at the bar, but you are obliged to order your first drink.

5. You may call a boy over, buy him a drink (or not) and sit with him in the sofas, and if the brief conversation works out, you off him.

6. Every hour on the hour, the captain announces "Showtime now. Anybody interested?"

7. Let's say 13 customers are interested. There are two more who are here to off a boy and aren't interested in the show; they continue to sit in the main salon, where boys continue to do their rotations on the stage -- in other words the show should not inconvenience these customers.

8. The captain opens two private rooms and splits the 13 customers into two groups, putting six in one room, seven in the other. The charge for the show is 200 or 250 baht per customer, which includes a second drink.

9. The show thus takes place in a more intimate setting -- a room no larger than a small bedroom -- where the boys dance a mere arm's length from the seated customers.

10. The boys either dance nude or dance in a manner that strips to nude. The etiquette is NO TOUCHING unless the boys invite you to lay your hands on them briefly. Naturally, the boys are encouraged as part of their routine to invite the customers by turn to do so from time to time, in order to up the thrill quotient.

12. The show is mostly done on a small, low podium/stage that is 2 metres by 2 metres (the size of a king-sized bed, enough space to allow for acts of sodomy if that's what the show requires).

13. In each room, the show involves about 6 boys (or maybe 8 boys if the cost structure allows it). In the first half, each boy does a 5-minute dance solo, either (i) coyote-style, (ii) Manila macho-dancer bar style, or (iii) Chiangmai style. In the second half, the 6 (or {Sunglass wink smiley} boys are paired or trio'ed for their routines.

14. From the customer's perspective, he is in a really intimate setting with boys hardly more than a metre away, making frequent eye contact and with seductive smiles. He is also invited by the dancing boys to touch and caress them now and then. The show has a degree of personal attention that a bigger showspace cannot provide. Although the customer had been asked to stump up an extra 200 or 250 baht for the show (on top of the first drink), he is getting value for it.

15. The economics is that the six or seven customers in a private room will have put up 1500 or 1750 baht for the show. Involving 6 (or {Sunglass wink smiley} boys, the labour cost for each room's show will be 600 (or 800) baht with each boy getting 100 baht for an hour's work (serious dancing, not shuffling)

16. The duration of the show is about 45 - 50 minutes, comprising 9 - 11 acts. At the end, the rooms have to be vacated for cleaning in preparation for the next round of shows. If a customer wants to see a subsequent show, it's another 200 or 250 baht, though for most people, 45 - 50 minutes will have been enough!

The economics of such a bar has the following characteristics:

The typical customer will be buying two drinks: the first drink on entry and the second drink either because he wants to sit with a boy prior to an off, or because he wants to see a show. Two drinks per customer is a significant improvement on the present one-drink average in most bars. The important thing though is that the customer must feel he gets value from paying for a second drink, and that is where an intimate, hands-on show comes in.

Staffing characteristics:

The bar doesn't need a lot of boys. Assuming on average at each hour, only two rooms are opened for shows, the bar needs only 12 boys (6 boys per room), plus another 10 - 12 doing the rotation in the main salon. If there's a surge of customers and all four private rooms need to be used, the same 12 dancing boys can cover all four rooms by having each dancing team of six boys to stagger their routines between two adjacent rooms. Double the work, yes, but double the earnings.

Competitive advantage:

Because there's a show every hour on the hour, customers can come any time that is convenient for them. The bar is able to attract customers at those hours where other bars aren't doing shows. Bars with "blockbuster" type shows can't afford to put up more than one-and-a-half of them per night, so they can't have a show going on through the entire evening. This little bar can.

---

The business model responds to the economic trends thus:

Response to Etrend 1: Currently, gogo boys are mostly wasting time, doing little and earning nothing unless/until they get an off which is "jackpot money". In the new business model, the boys are working for pay for many of the seven or eight hours they are in the bar. For each set of dancing in a private room (each boy does an average of two 5-minute items per 45-minute set) a boy earns 100 baht. Assuming a typical boy gets to do three sets a night, he earns 300 baht. Multipled by 25 days a month, he has base earnings of 7500 baht before tips.

Response to Etrend 2: As boys become scarcer, the bar runs on fewer boys, but these boys work harder to deliver satisfying shows. Running on fewer boys also means the bar owner can get a little picky about which boys to hire, thereby keeping the "good looks" factor, boosting the rate of offs.

Response to Etrend 3: No more elaborate staging for shows and the costs associated with that.

Response to Etrend 4: In an era of flat tourist numbers, such a bar will rarely look empty. That's because it is divided into small spaces, and you only open such spaces as are needed (also save on airconditioning). A small salon or private dance room with 6 customers in it looks a lot better than a bar that can seat 100, but has only six people; the atmosphere is more encouraging.

Response to Etrend 5: The bar and its boys draw revenue not by relying on high rate of offs -- in a new era of Chinese tourists this may not be realistic -- but by getting customers to pay for a second drink in order to get a satisfying show. Of course, any offs that the bar/boys get will be good too.

Operational imperatives for success:

A bar that requires boys to actually work through a seven-hour shift (rather than sit about or shuffle about as at present) requires boys with a good work ethic. This especially as every boy must be able to perform on stage, equipped with a handful of routines, executed reasonably well (i.e. with artistry, with good eye contact and seductive appeal to customers). This means training, training, training.

I also think it is imperative to address the problem of service quality after being off'd, but that's a separate issue I have written about before.
http://www.gaythailand.com/forums/to...t-bar-bangkok/ (http://www.gaythailand.com/forums/topic/6548-original-twilight-bar-bangkok/)

Please bear in mind these thoughts are 5 years old and so prices need to be adjusted. Also meetings via the smartphone apps were far less common, although Gay Romeo and other sites had their admirers.

I believe one key to the success of this model - as it was in the "old" days - is the boys have to radiate a sense of fun and enjoyment and not the boredom and occupation with their cell phones as happens far too often now. But then this can be covered under the final imperative "train, train, train."

[lonelywombat]

I don't know how long it has been since Scottish Guy has visited Pattaya, but I dont think that was constructive.

If we look at the 4 bars in Sunee that are active where boys sit around with cocks out, get called to sit beside a punter, get a low cost feel sometimes a bit more generous tip, but few offs.

What is the problem
Are most guys shy and don't want to be observed playing with boys even giving oral in public

Are these guys unable to take a boy back to where they are staying. Some in good hotels, others in places where there are restrictions on entry,living in mixed company like condo blocks or have a partner at home or due home.

Maybe they have already had a matinee and just curious what else is available.

It is a few years since I visited Montreal. There you could take a boy off the floor to a semi private cubicle for a hands on "massage" not in front of the viewers who are watching the action, but not contributing.

I think this is the best of the solutions. Eliminate the public wanking. Maybe 200 baht for 2 or 3 minutes in private. No cumming unless agreed to in advance. Boy gets the tip with a deduction to the bar like the massage boys on the beach pay.

[scottish-guy]

I don't know how long it has been since Scottish Guy has visited Pattaya, but I dont think that was constructive.


LW I don't know how long it has been since you posted a sensible reply, but is it possible you could quit your predictable knee-jerk hostility to anybody who dares to say anything contrary to your views, then just stop to re-read and think about my 'non-constructive' post for a moment - instead of concerning yourself (in the style of Mini Mee) with my movements?

If you do so, you'll realise I was relating events of the past (freelancers disappearing/being discouraged from Surawong Coffee Shop in BKK and LCR in Pattaya, where they used to be plentiful). That, my dear, is a historial FACT and my travel history has no bearing on it.

However, I'll concede that I did also speculate that any re-appearance of substantial numbers of freelancers in either of the venues I mentioned is unlikely to be reversed any time in the near future, as it's my view that the management don't want them.

So let's make a deal LW: you'll be pleased to know (because you're obviously curious) that I will be in Thailand within the next 6 months. I'll visit LCR and see if there's a bevvy of freelancers in there. Hell, just for you I'll even pop over to BKK and the Surawong for some social intercourse with the freelancers in the Coffee Shop. I rather suspect I'll be proved right, that there are very few if any in either venue, and I'll be left talking to myself (something you excel at par excellence)

[lonelywombat]

Scottish Guy I will be in Pattaya at least twice before you get here and have more than a dozen visits since your last visit. If not more.
If you go back and read all the previous comments you will note the no off fee versus salary as suggestions
The comment of shamelessmack from Fountainhall was detailed and I support the 2 room concept. I mentioned the Montreal small massage rooms [standing not a bed] as an alternative. Two room concept where just like the beach, the boys pay the owner to use the room.


L
If you do so, you'll realise I was relating events of the past (freelancers disappearing/being discouraged from Surawong Coffee Shop in BKK and LCR in Pattaya, where they used to be plentiful). That, my dear, is a historical FACT and my travel history has no bearing on it.

I am unsure how long ago you are referring to Probably 5 to 7 years??
I owned a 120 seat restaurant and noticed all those coffee shops,cafes,restaurants and hotels, some went broke, others just closed, many revived the business and others have had many owners, some with success others continuing past mistakes.

What on earth what one bar did many years ago has to do with today amuses me. When LCR lost the 2 Ians, we all knew Robbie did not have the skills to manage. There were a series of managers and change of ownership, maybe several times .A numbers of poorly performed managers almost killed the business . Maybe a new person can get it started again If so he/she will look at all the options available.

[arsenal]

Lonely W: Le Cafe Royal appears to be doing rather well since they opened it up and turned it into a show bar. With it's location it always had tremendous potential.

[Oliver]

I'm surprised to hear that. It's true that it was attracting reasonable numbers in February but in October and June, it rarely had an audience of in double figures. Perhaps putting it behind doors would help? Not only would it encourage potential punters to take a look and maybe buy a drink rather than walking by and seeing the empty seats. It would also cut down the noise -levels endured by the many who aren't interested in khatoey-shows.
And the same is true of the other two open bars in Boyztown offering much the same. Equally noisily.

[lonelywombat]

Oliver I agree that closing the room would add to the presentation . I also agree that offable boys acting as waiters could add to the atmosphere.Forget the fee no fee, good looking young men who are available and will respond to the punters, is what is wanted.

The problem with the Venue was the boys were never available. I believe you cannot denude your waiting staff by having them go off, but the availability later, would keep the bar exciting

[arsenal]

Oliver: The noise from Boyztown is an annual complaint from you and is a different subject to the one being discussed here.
Lonely W: The doors were closed for many years on LCR and it was empty. Now they're open and have a good number of customers. I would definitely agree with your comments about the boys being offable. I simply refuse to go to The Venue for that very reason because the show is hardly a draw.

[Oliver]

My apologies...but it was you who raised the issue of LCR by claiming that it was "doing well", an observation completely at variance with my impressions over the past two years or so.
And it is not just LCR that has suffered since it was opened-up; the same has thing happened at Copa.
The noise issue is not irrelevant to the situation facing Boyztown bars. I cannot see the wisdom in marketing it towards a younger clientèle that barely exists in gay Pattaya.....and never has, at least for the twenty years I've been going. And making the hotels in the area less attractive is not in the interests of any of the businesses there.

[lonelywombat]

I do not know what LCR does at night My last memory was they had a steak night, a BBQ was set up in the street,it was full of steak and whatever nobody was waiting, no orders has been given and when I left none had been made.
I put this down to the very poor management of LCR by the part timers and those out of their depth. It has continued for many years.
Not sure what to make of Copa. I had heard the owners had lost interest. That would explain why nothing is happening.
But for Ambiance and BoyBoyBoys it may have a future.
The last I heard was the two are owned by different groups
The hotel is doing well I keep on hearing good reports.
BBB confuses me . The Big Cock parade seems to get the Chinese in but do they pay or is there a contract for them to see the show plus a drink.
I still feel there are opportunities for BBB to do better.

I think too many boys --or is that for the Chinese who want to see big cock.
The drag shows---- I have heard sometimes good and by others just another boring show.
Maybe imagination in BBB is the biggest challenge. I guess it comes back to whether they are interested or not

[scottish-guy]

Scottish Guy I will be in Pattaya at least twice before you get here and have more than a dozen visits since your last visit. If not more.

It's not a competition to see who can visit Pattaya the most often, who was last there, or who will be next there. I have never visited more than twice a year and frankly neither my libido, my bank balance, or even my interest level could support more.


..I am unsure how long ago you are referring to Probably 5 to 7 years??

In the case of Surawong Coffee Shop (which you don't seem to realise was/still is within the Surawongse Hotel) - it's much longer than 5-7 years since they kicked the freelancers out - it's more like 12-15 years


...What on earth what one bar did many years ago has to do with today amuses me

Since I was making a historical point and since the policy has remained intact in that venue, it has everything to do with it.


..When LCR lost the 2 Ians, we all knew Robbie did not have the skills to manage

Do you not think the fact that Robbie had a terminal and highly debilitating illness before and after he assumed control of LCR might have had an impact on his abilities and motivation?

[fountainhall]

I find it somewhat disappointing that there have been so many complaints on all the boards about bars and how they are now operated yet the vast majority of the complainers (and I am certainly one in that group) have failed to come up with alternatives other than reduce drink and off prices, reduce the volume of the music and have the boys do more than look at their mobile phones most of the time. When macaroni21's model was posted 5 years ago on gaythailand, there was a lengthy discussion. By reposting that thread, I assumed more posters here would want to come up with other constructive ideas. Clearly I was wrong.

[Oliver]

Perhaps we need to consider the possibility- sad as it is for many- that the era of the go-go bar is over. Or perhaps the number of available (and similar) bars in Boyztown is too high.

[Tobi]

...that the era of the go-go bar is over...

I believe it is, and that includes the girlie bars too. Stickman has been reporting on this for while, for example, just this week:


Today, signs outside Black Pagoda advertising for staff show the bar is offering a whopping 1,500 baht per night for new staff with no lady drink quota. That is equivalent to a monthly rate of 45,000 baht. You'd think there would be a queue of girls outside the bar every night keen to join the bar's ranks but there isn't, a very clear indicator of just how hard it is for bars to find new staff.

I noticed that some bars are charging admission fees, which is probably the business model that's likely to become prevalent, simply a slightly risqué tourist trap, just another stop on a coach tour. For everyone and everything else, there's online.

[Oliver]

I was wondering about the lady-bars. It was about nine years ago when Pattayaland Soi2 was busy.... I was looking at some camcorder footage I took then. More than busy; crowded. The lady-bars even had their own enlarged tuk-tuk to pick-up customers from other parts of the city. No sign of customers now. I haven't been to Walking Street for many years and wondered whether the bars were doing better there. Evidently not.

[arsenal]

I don't think the era of the gogo bar is necessarily over. I just think that there is only room for so many, Even ten years ago they were closing with regular monotony in Boyztown. There's now about thirteen left and that's probably a sustainable amount. In the past there were maybe thirty or so but many of them made little or no money.

[colmx]

First the BoyBoyBoys bar used to have an area where non bar boys could dance to the music in a separate area and also buy drinks. This started around midnight and when the bar closed they moved across the road to Cafe Royale where they hosted an all night operation.

Cafe Royale allowed bar boys from all bars in if dressed cleanly and the boys drinks kept the punters attention and interest whilst keeping the bar takings turning over at an excellent rate.

The boys were going to BBB and LCR in the early 2000's as there was no place else to go... Except Hollywood or X-zyte... I spent many a night in LCR until the early mornings when Ian McKnight would come in to relieve the night shift...

Once the dedicated gay clubs like Maya, X-ray, Dude, Dave, NAB, Idol and all the other late night venues opened - the boys had some place else to go once their work stint was over - and this killed the late night trade in BBB and LCR

[lonelywombat]

The boys were going to BBB and LCR in the early 2000's as there was no place else to go... Except Hollywood or X-zyte... I spent many a night in LCR until the early mornings when Ian McKnight would come in to relieve the night shift...

Once the dedicated gay clubs like Maya, X-ray, Dude, Dave, NAB, Idol and all the other late night venues opened - the boys had some place else to go once their work stint was over - and this killed the late night trade in BBB and LCR

You are assuming all the boys went to LCR just to drink. My comments were for farang who wish to socialise, flirt or maybe have a quickie on the premises, is different to those Thai boys who finished their go go shift and want to play

[fountainhall]

I don't think the era of the gogo bar is necessarily over. I just think that there is only room for so many, Even ten years ago they were closing with regular monotony in Boyztown.
The coming death of the go-go bar scene in Bangkok – and I stress specifically Bangkok – has been predicted for quite a few years. In another gaythailand thread six years ago, I quoted an excerpt from a then recently published book “Bangkok Found” excellently written by Alex Kerr, an American who has lived in Asia most of his life, the last 20 in Bangkok. In it he writes –


I have what I call the ‘Weimar Repubic’ theory of Bangkok. As dramatized in the movie Cabaret, there was a brief moment of sinful freedom in Berlin during the Weimar Republic (1919 – 1933). It was the era of Kurt Weill’s bittersweet music and Christopher Isherwood’s novels and stories. By the mid-1930s the Nazis stamped it out, and eventually all that remained was a legend of ‘Berlin in the 20s’. Those who experienced it spent the rest of their lives telling others of the wild days that were now gone forever.

In time, the more outrageous forms that prostitution takes in Bangkok (sex shows, go-go bars with half naked boys or girls with numbers on their panties gyrating on tables) will disappear. For those things, Bangkok stands far out on the scale of what most cities in the world see as acceptable. I don’t believe it will last. Slowly but surely we are seeing a clampdown, and it’s a matter of time before the ‘sinful’ Bangkok we see today fades into legend, just as 1920s Berlin did . . .
http://www.gaythailand.com/forums/topic/5142-what-is-a-house-of-prostitution/page-2

[christianpfc]

I find it somewhat disappointing that there have been so many complaints on all the boards about bars and how they are now operated yet the vast majority of the complainers (and I am certainly one in that group) have failed to come up with alternatives other than reduce drink and off prices, reduce the volume of the music and have the boys do more than look at their mobile phones most of the time. When macaroni21's model was posted 5 years ago on gaythailand, there was a lengthy discussion. By reposting that thread, I assumed more posters here would want to come up with other constructive ideas. Clearly I was wrong.
Why re-invent the wheel? The idea of a gogo bar is pretty much the optimum for me (boys in underwear on stage; some people might want to see them nude which would not appeal to me, others are content with boys in jeans or even fully dressed which does not appeal to me), everything else not that important (drink prices as long as reasonable, music level, lighting, smoking, mobile phones, mamasans; I don't even care if the boys dance or not, however I would like to see them from front and back).


I believe it is, and that includes the girlie bars too. Stickman has been reporting on this for while...

simply a slightly risqué tourist trap, just another stop on a coach tour. For everyone and everything else, there's online.
Once we are at stickman, there was a submission by a reader which had the following line (from memory), comparing girly entertainment aimed at tourists compared to that aimed at the Thai market

...second-rate talent is being fobbed off onto unsuspecting tourists at premium prices...
which suggests that there is better and cheaper girly entertainment for the local market.
Unfortunately, according to my research, there is no boy entertainment at reasonable prices aimed at the local market, it seems indeed all gogo bars are overpriced and bad attitude (Soi Twilight) or poor choice (Silom Soi 6, Be-High in Saphan Khwai); what a luck there is Pattaya!

I have been considering Soi Twilight a tourist trap for a long time, it's for those who don't care if a drink is 350 or 400 Baht because they come once a year, don't know better (unfortunately there is no better unless you want to go to Pattaya), want it here and now, and so on.

[Tobi]

... and it’s a matter of time before the ‘sinful’ Bangkok we see today fades into legend, just as 1920s Berlin did ...

... as did the Tangiers of the 50s and 60s.

[christianpfc]

The problem with the Venue was the boys were never available. I believe you cannot denude your waiting staff by having them go off, but the availability later, would keep the bar exciting
Language note:
The use of "denude" has irked me since I first read it, and now after consulting dictionaries and asking friends I feel confident to post the following:
"denude your waiting staff" means have them take off their clothes, which would not be a bad idea in some cases. However what I think lonelywombat wanted to say is "denude your bar of your waiting staff by having them go off" ("denude" can be replaced by "deplete").

[fountainhall]

I know its just semantics, but in the context I believe lonely meant "denude" = "deplete" = "reduce the number of". In English I cannot believe "denude" means to have them take off their clothes, especially bearing in mind the context. You can denude something but not someone!

[Tobi]

Hmm. I would have agreed, except ... http://www.dictionary.com/browse/denuded
Oh, and the OP undoubtedly meant deplete anyways. :P

[lonelywombat]

Denude is an industry expression from where I have practiced. It means you cannot afford to have your staff leave, before the end of service.

I was not running a gogo bar but if you want to maintain full service until close, denude was our local expression.

[fountainhall]

Hmm. I would have agreed, except ... http://www.dictionary.com/browse/denuded
Except the example bears out the point - you can denude a thing (e.g. a tree) but not a person! (I think!)

[Tobi]

Except the example bears out the point - you can denude a thing (e.g. a tree) but not a person! (I think!)

I was looking more at


He removed her beige Roger Vivier pumps and white lab coat to reveal a denuded ballerina-pink slip dress.

I'd have automatically agreed with you, except the more I think about it, the fact that it's not used doesn't actually make it wrong, does it?!!

[christianpfc]

I would say the construction is denude/deplete somebody/something of somebody/something?

Most bars are overstaffed. Recent visit to Screw Boys I counted 5 customers, 8 fully dressed staff (inside the bar, with more outside that might be over 10) and over 20 boys on stage. No problem letting wait staff go with customers. Try to make your customers happy, you will be somehow able to fill the gap in staff.