The Boys In the Bars are 18, even though the look younger.

So if you like your boys looking like school boys, you do not have to break the law as many do but always make sure, even though your reasonably safe offing a guy from a Go Go Bar.

.

I imagine the guys who have recently been arrested with underage boys in bars in Pattaya would disagree with you.

I do hope you are not going to spout the usual crap about there not being underage boys in the bars. Picking up boys who look like 'schoolboys' presents a very great risk and nobody should be in any doubt about that especially if you endorse that view.

Incidentally when you copy and paste articles is is considered the norm to credit the original source.

Yeah, this is crap. There are very many u.a. Thailand young men in the Sunnee area bars.

Just because there is underage boys around does not mean you have to go with them.

Im Just giving Information to the many guys who write to me asking me to tell them honestly what is happening here, and how do they play safe even though they like boys 16 and upwards in many countries its legal. so can I give them information how to be safe in Thailand. just finding Information for the many guys reading this around the world. not for flamers who wont participate giving interesting information.

Dont worry guys you can quite confidently ask me any questions, Im not at all embarrassed, and will give you an honest answer, but dont be surprised if I dont agree with it, to tell you even though I will answer you .

All correspondence are deleted after, so dont worry I do not share you with the world, not like my dear friend Simon Napier Bell who I was out to dinner with at the most amazing MANTRA Restaurant, the other night with a couple of other well know personalities, to remain nameless, we could all learn from, see what he tells the people who write to him from around the world.

http://www.simonnapierbell.com/correspondence.htm



Mantra exsperience retaurant write at a later date.

http://mantrapattaya.com/

Don't you ever get tired of licking arse?

[bing]

Your post is spot on--Many wnat to adhere to the law, and it is so important to know the proper age on the card. Since they don't use the same years as we do in the Colonies, it is nice to see you put clearly how to read the Thai ID card.

Always consider the boys lend out ID cards all the time, and the pictures are as crummy as ID pictures in the west, so if it doesn't feel right, there is a good chance, it isn't right. They have almost nothing to lose and something to gain. You have very little to gain, and everything to lose. Do not think so much with your other head.

[TrongpaiExpat]

Your post is spot on--Many wnat to adhere to the law, and it is so important to know the proper age on the card. Since they don't use the same years as we do in the Colonies, it is nice to see you put clearly how to read the Thai ID card.

Colonies? Falkland Islands? You lost all the rest.

Even if I suspect someone is u.a., I drop him. It is, after all, a buyer's market. Besides, any experience I've had with boys under 21, has often been disappointing. In faact, the best evening I have spent in all of Thailand was with a well known Thai person in his late thirties. Pure joy.

I would always avoid offing a boy with spiky hairstyles.... the style where plenty of gel is used to make their hair spiky. The boys with these hairstyles will always worry about spoling their hard work and will not lie down on the pillow when making love! Real spoiler.

I would always avoid offing a boy with spiky hairstyles.... the style where plenty of gel is used to make their hair spiky. The boys with these hairstyles will always worry about spoiling their hard work and will not lie down on the pillow when making love! Real spoiler.

Well, they could do what a woman I know used to do: wrap it in toilet tissue held in place with a couple long clips.
Then her husband started calling her, "Shit Head."
On second thought; if I climbed in bed to a sight like that?... I'd need toilet tissue! And the appellation would become 100% appropriate!

If LMTU's post seems familar to some readers, just click here:

http://www.stickyrice.ws/?view=sec-PTY/jimm

I bet theres plenty of sores on your ass:))

Yes when it cums to yours, I am a bit fussy you know?

Not as fussy as me, sweetheart.

If LMTU's post seems familar to some readers, just click here:

http://www.stickyrice.ws/?view=sec-PTY/jimm

LMTU is not capable of writing an intelligent or legible article so it has always been obvious that the old boy was thieving someone elses work.

But of course being the sort of person that he is he would never have the courtesy or courage to admit it.

:bounce:

[cuteboy]

Much of what everyone says here fits my experience too. In Boystown almost all boys will be over 18, but this is certainly not the case elsewhere. Several bars in the Sunnee area will have 50% below the legal age, so beware. Beware too of the ID cards, they are often passed around. There is one bar where I suspect that the boys are kept loyal by the staff taking their IDs and retaining them, for months. You will perhaps get a hint of this if you are shown a form, not an ID.

Nothing is 100%. If in any doubt, avoid! But never take a boy without examining his ID

this is hardly the New York Times here. Gathering information eleswhere whether by mouth or reading and posting it here for the very exclusive Sawatdee readers is hardly a crime..more a service !!

The only thing missing was a mention of Jim Jim Jimmy's campest mamasan in the business.

I would say never take a boy full stop. But then I prefer men. Besides what most of you think are boys are usually just the 40+ yr-old street junkies who simply haven't seen a meal for awhile.
Oh oh oh, why all the dilemma, if he looks underage to you then he probably isn't, but why take a chance? Just get something your own age and you can both wear a paper bag. :idea:

I would say never take a boy full stop. But then I prefer men. Besides what most of you think are boys are usually just the 40+ yr-old street junkies who simply haven't seen a meal for awhile.
Oh oh oh, why all the dilemma, if he looks underage to you then he probably isn't, but why take a chance? Just get something your own age and you can both wear a paper bag. :idea:
Why?

[Impulse]

I think on my last trip one boy I offed was more than likely underage.They wouldnt let him into Howards so we went to a short time hotel in Sunee.In this bar it appeared that there were several underage boys.I know I took a big chance but at the time it didnt seem like one.I dont see any harm I did to the boy as someone else would have taken him,the real harm or risk was to myself.And while I read the book"damage done"about an Ausie drug smuggler getting caught and spending too many years in a thai prison,I realised just how lucky i was.I think the real crime in these bars are the fact that these guys are doing very unsafe acts that could ruin their lives.

I think on my last trip one boy I offed was more than likely underage.They wouldnt let him into Howards so we went to a short time hotel in Sunee.In this bar it appeared that there were several underage boys.I know I took a big chance but at the time it didnt seem like one.I dont see any harm I did to the boy as someone else would have taken him,the real harm or risk was to myself.And while I read the book"damage done"about an Ausie drug smuggler getting caught and spending too many years in a thai prison,I realised just how lucky i was.I think the real crime in these bars are the fact that these guys are doing very unsafe acts that could ruin their lives.

Think with your brain not with your cock.

[bigben]

As much as I read these boards about under aged guys, seldom do we hold accountable the ones who are ultimately responsible for hiring them. THE OWNERS. Sure the Mamasen will recruit but the owner(s) must make sure the boys are 18 +

Before some of you get your panties in a twist, remember this is my opinion and I have the right as much as the next guy to share.

Some owners are Ok chaps, others are total animals and could care less about the boys working in their respective businesses or their customers.

I always check the ID card of the guys I off, but if for some reason it goes south, and I ever am caught up with an under age boy that I paid the off fee for and the police are involved, it will not be a pretty sight for the owner once I get out of jail.

Yes owners, if I get caught up with a boy from your bar who for whatever reason is not at least 18 years of age, I will personally deal with you and I assure you it will not be a pretty sight.

In summary, I like the P4P scene as much as anyone, but I hold the owners 100% responsible that the boys I off are of legal age. You will not get away with jeopardizing my welfare and health.

I hope this isn't taken as a threat, nothing could be farther from the truth, but I promise I will not tolerate owners with an indifferent attitude toward their customers.

Strong stuff, a little too strong for me.
But I do agree, this all could be stopped in bars anyway, if the bars owners complied with the law.
I also hold the owners responsible.
Obviouly there is corruption going on. All the police would have to do is periodic surprise checks of all bars (and not take bribes for warning) to find underagers, and if found, ARREST the owners.
That would be the end of it right quick.
So simple, and so obvious it won't be happening.

[cottmann]

Strong stuff, a little too strong for me.
But I do agree, this all could be stopped in bars anyway, if the bars owners complied with the law.
I also hold the owners responsible.
Obviouly there is corruption going on. All the police would have to do is periodic surprise checks of all bars (and not take bribes for warning) to find underagers, and if found, ARREST the owners.
That would be the end of it right quick.
So simple, and so obvious it won't be happening.

One of the oldest business expressions is "Caveat emptor" - "Let the buyer beware!" The idea behind it is that buyers take responsibility for the condition of the items they purchase and should examine them before purchase. This is especially true for items that are not covered under a strict warranty. That includes barboys offed for an evening's pleasure.

That might be true of buying sheets. We are talking of owners illegally employing and prostituting UNDERAGE sex workers.
So you think the owners bear no responsibility?

Oh, but they're not really sex workers now, are they? They're just dancers and waiters. If sex happens outside the establishment, that's between the boy and the customer. Right? Isn't that the whole big lie that allows the bars to remain open in a country where prostitution is clearly illegal?

[cottmann]

That might be true of buying sheets. We are talking of owners illegally employing and prostituting UNDERAGE sex workers.
So you think the owners bear no responsibility?

Yes.
The simple fact is that SELLING sex in Thailand is illegal, as is PIMPING, and it doesn't matter what sex or age the persons involved are. If you go into a bar where workers of any age are employed on the understanding they may be offed as sex workers, then you should do so knowing that the entire activity is illegal no matter what the ages of the sex workers are, i.e., it is illegal whether or not the sex workers are under-age or of legal age.
On the other hand, as I understand it, BUYING sex is not illegal in some circumstances in Thailand, unless the person you have sex with is underage. By "buying sex" I mean that the Prevention and Suppression of Prostitution Act of 1996 states what is illegal for the purposes of the Act, and The Entertainment Places Act of 1966 makes it illegal to use licensed premises for purposes of prostitution.
Therefore, as whatever the bar owner is doing is illegal under Thai law, whatever the ages of the sex workers involved, the onus is on you to ensure that the person you purchase for an evening's pleasure is legal. Q.E.D.

[bigben]

So it's buyer beware without any responsibility to the owner(s) ???

So when I purchase a bottle of HP and it turns out to be brown klong water the company has no responsibility? The store is free from liability?

I think not.

The greedy owners are in violation of Thai law by hiring under aged boys. Period.

No ifs ands or butts about it. They are risking fines and more.

We are ALL guilty if we pay for sex with someone, but that will never change nor will that ever be enforced with any vigor in LOS.

I still contend that I personally will hold the owner(s) responsible if I happen to off a person in their establishment i.e. bar, Go-Go bar or the sing-a-song joints and for whatever reason the police are involved with my activities.

I take reasonable care to make sure he is not underage, but maybe I can't read the ID card or worse, he doesn't have one.

Oh, and reference to the HP bottle, would some of you suggest I open the bottle and taste it in the aisle before the purchase?

Bottom line, the responsibility falls on all parties, but with the owners not taking reasonable care to insure the safety and welfare of the customers is unacceptable, shows wanton disregard for my welfare and I will deal with it my own way once it is sorted with the BiB.

So it is not only buyer beware, it is also owner(s) beware.

That is all.

Happy 4th of July to all you Americans.

Bottom line, the responsibility falls on all parties, but with the owners not taking reasonable care to insure the safety and welfare of the customers is unacceptable, shows wanton disregard for my welfare and I will deal with it my own way once it is sorted with the BiB. .

After spending 10-15 years in the 'Bangkok Hilton' and then being deported and being banned from re-entering the Kingdom you may just find your revenge a little difficult.
TIT

[haikudude]

Also, bar owners can be in cahoots with the police. Bribe from the customer, then kickback to bar owner for the set-up. IтАЩve herd itтАЩs happen. At least you wonтАЩt be in prison if you pay, but probably deported and then too poor to hire Bruno to do the job.

[Dodger]

Seeing as the sex industry in Thailand continues to be one of their only successful industries I rather doubt that they'll break the model.

One thing they (the Thais) know for sure is how to keep the majority of their global customer base happy. The reason there are so many boys with those school boy looks and girls with those school girl looks gracing the gogo stages is because that's exactly what the majority of the global customer base is paying for.

During my first visit to LOS, I was on a work project with a team of consultants, all of which were older than me. I was 39 at the time and my colleagues ages ranged between 47 and 58. I couldn't avoid hitting the town with them, and found myself sitting in a GIRL gogo bar which was (and I think still is) named "School Girls GoGo." None of my friend's offed any girls that night, as they actually worked for me and noticed that I wasn't going to off a girl that night...(boy, if they only knew the truth). Instead, they waited until I wasn't around one night and headed back to School Girls to have some real fun. All of my colleagues were married back in the States with responsible positions both in business, as well as society. Not one blinked an eye after taking a young girl back to the Dusit for a night of romance.

Little did my friends know, that while they were drooling over the young girls in their selection making process, I was sitting alone in a boy gogo bar getting ready to off a boy from the old Thai Boys Boys GoGo Bar. My friends and I were as different as day and night regarding our sexual preferences, but the one thing we did share in common is that we all seemed to appreciate the young ones.

Sometimes I read the comments of some of our members, and think that you can't possibly be the same people that I meet when I'm in LOS on holiday. You come to Thailand and end up walking down the soi with a boy who is one-third your age and then return home and get on your computer and slam people for going with under aged boys. Are you saying that it's is OK in your book if a 60 y/o man offs an 18 Y/O every night for sex, but because the law draws the line at 18, those who get caught with the 17 Y/O deserve imprisonment? Give me a break.

A point which has been emphasized many times in our past posts, is that a farang is much safer offing a boy from a bar than negotiating a deal with a freelancer, and that's true. The reason we always seen to highlight is that there's less risk with a bar boy because people know him, and there's this magical link between him and the bar that makes everything safer. This is actually correct, but there's another key reason why you're safer with a bar boy, and that's because he works within the System. There's approximately 12% of the Thai GMP floating around in this complex and dynamic web of corruption (I just referred to as the System) and when anyone attempts to play outside the System they are increasing the risk.

I'm only saying this because of all the focus on the "Legal" aspects of offing boys who are potentially under the legal age. The System that you are entering (like it, or not) is totally illegal based on Thai law. Prostitution is illegal in Thailand, regardless if the boy or girl is 87 years old, it's simply not legal. If you found yourself under arrest because you offed a 23 Y/O boy from a bar for the purpose of paying him for sexual services, would you be any different than a guy who gets arrested because the boy had a fake I.D. and was really 17? I'm sure many of you would prefer to rationalize this in your favor, but in reality, you'd be just as guilty.

Just to set the record straight, Boy Special will turn 27 next month, and if he and I part ways, I'm sure I'll find someone else in his age bracket to share the majority of my time with. But when I have my butterfly wings attached, I'll be flying towards the guys with those great school boy looks every single time...staying within the System of course.

[Impulse]

Great post as usual Dodger,I too find these guys on here are rationalising their behavior by putting down anyone with an underage boy.Its ok to have sex with an 18 year old,but god forbid if they are 17,lol.Its hard to draw the line,many people in the west would find a 50 year old having sex with a 20 year old a horrific thing. Im not saying its ok to off an underage boy,but when your in a bar where its expected that you off any boy there and they are serving alcohol encouraging you to pick a boy,what the hell are you gonna do?Im going to pick the one I want,that im paying my hard earned money for.I think its the owners responsibility.

[Abuelo-old]

I was in LOS a few months ago and in Sunnee there were only 3 bars that appeared to be "playing by the rules" with regard to hiring u a boys. I went to all 3 of them on mulitple occasions and I was the only customer every time I went to 2 of the 3. All of the other bars that clearly had u a boys were filled every night. What's a mamasam to do? Hire only 18 plus and not have any customers or sprinkle in some school boys and fill the place to the rafters! The bars are hostage to market forces and are giving the customers what they want. And they appear to want u a boys!

Dodger, with lots of due respect, I hear where you are coming from but I don't think you get it.
Prostitution is illegal in Thailand, but has anyone EVER heard of a CUSTOMER being arrested for buying the services of a legal age prostiture?!!!
Of course not.
So, in effect, it is de facto LEGAL. Period. Really no ambiguity. There is really NO risk at all buying the services of a legal age prostitute.

It is not me who is MORALIZING about the underage sex worker thing. Like most people, I condemn intergeneration sex when it is truly pederasty, but personally, I totally agree, there is nothing MORALLY different between playing with an 18 year old and a 16 year old (who is post-pubescent). Of course, a magical thing does NOT happen on the 18th birthday.

But as far as Thai LAW is concered, at least as harshly applied to farangs, a farang is in deep shit being caught with anyone under 18. Very deep legal shit. Bad enough for many to consider jumping out of windows. And yet these damnable smiling owners and mamamans push this poison on us, lie to us, help the boys lie to us, basically threatening our lives. Yes, buyer beware, but recognize evil greed just for money when you see it.

Such "market forces" would dry up over night if the owners were thrown in jail for hiring underaged workers. I do agree we all have to deal the reality of the way things are in Thailand if we want to stay healthy and free, but I can't understand this tolerance of sleazeball owners and corrupt police. They apparantly have nothing to lose. Their "valued" customers basically have their lives to lose.

[TrongpaiExpat]

Prostitution is illegal in Thailand, but has anyone EVER heard of a CUSTOMER being arrested for buying the services of a legal age prostiture?!!!
Of course not.


I remember two. One was a Canadian and was arrested at the Aquarius guest house about 5 years ago and the other was arrested a few months before that at a sauna called the Colonnade during a televised raid. Neither were with anyone under the age of 20!

[TrongpaiExpat]

Such "market forces" would dry up over night if the owners were thrown in jail for hiring underaged workers

Nonsense, it would just make room for a new owner doing the same-same. What a naive view of crime and punishment.

Prostitution is illegal in Thailand, but has anyone EVER heard of a CUSTOMER being arrested for buying the services of a legal age prostiture?!!!
Of course not.


I remember two. One was a Canadian and was arrested at the Aquarius guest house about 5 years ago and the other was arrested a few months before that at a sauna called the Colonnade during a televised raid. Neither were with anyone under the age of 20!
So what. 2 out of 10 billion?

Such "market forces" would dry up over night if the owners were thrown in jail for hiring underaged workers

Nonsense, it would just make room for a new owner doing the same-same. What a naive view of crime and punishment.
I really think you are wrong.
If a Thai or farang owner REALLY thought it was PROBABLE he would be caught and thrown in the monkey house for 10 years for hiring just one underaged sex worker, you REALLY think they would do that? I don't. The reason they do this now, is they know they will just be slapped on the wrist, while the farang customers rot in hell.

They are simply businessmen, disgustingly wicked businessmen, dealing with the risk reward of this. Greatly increase the risk, the tendency to do this diminishes. Also, if all bars were forced to comply, the punters who demand this jail bait would just have to find another outlet. I am talking of course about farang oriented bars. Thai for Thai places as well all know, operate in a different universe.

A point which has been emphasized many times in our past posts, is that a farang is much safer offing a boy from a bar than negotiating a deal with a freelancer, and that's true. The reason we always seen to highlight is that there's less risk with a bar boy because people know him, and there's this magical link between him and the bar that makes everything safer. This is actually correct, but there's another key reason why you're safer with a bar boy, and that's because he works within the System.


It reminds me 4 years ago in Patong, a boy steels money from his farang, the boy was working in a big bar, the owner makes big story about a boy from his bar steels from farang but the boy was gone!. Then the farang did went back to his beloved daddy land and the boy ...Comes back and still works in the same bar ! Any warranty for a bar boy ? You not have !


and that's because he works within the System

We farang are not part within the system he works, only ore money is !

A freelancer Way not ?

90 % off my problems in Thailand where in bars . The bill is to over, order gin tonic makes a lot off tonic and not gin and...

A freelancer makes there is not a manipulation from mama sans or bars, no take off and not that boring drink every night !

My last freelancer, age 24 i met on Jomtiem beach he was super cute and ask me for a cigarette, then talking did start. He did not work in bars because farang pay his condo, TV, stereo... and tip him 20.000 bath a month. I was wondering way cute boy needs more farang ! The answer is he lost his 20.000 bath on the same day he took it from the bank , he was a gambler ! I had great time together cute boy and on the last day off my stay i visit his condo, the TV , stereo ...It was all gone! Cute boy did gives me a smile, " no problem my doctor from Paris is coming soon ".

I went out, sure i never be smart as a doctor from Paris and never be stupid as a doctor from Paris !

But a freelancer ? Och yes !

Well, the fact is, there is some layer of safety against theft and violence when dealing with a bar worker. Not foolproof. Nothing is. So with freelance you save some money, and take more risk, like a lot of things, up2u.

I am talking of course about farang oriented bars. Thai for Thai places as well all know, operate in a different universe.

Now that's an interesting statement. How are Thai4Thai places different?
This is a side of Thai life I havent heard about before. I'm intrigued.

I am talking of course about farang oriented bars. Thai for Thai places as well all know, operate in a different universe.

Now that's an interesting statement. How are Thai4Thai places different?
This is a side of Thai life I havent heard about before. I'm intrigued.
This is a can of worms subject and if others want to expand on it, so be it.
However, it is my clear impression that in Thai culture, non rape sex between a Thai and an underaged Thai is not seen with very much horror at all. (To be more specific, with pubescent adolescents.) It is my impression that it is widely available to Thais casually and commercially.
Such activity with a foreigner is an entirely different ballgame, for obvious reasons:
1. International pressure against this and Thailand wanting to appear to cooperate with that
2. An understandable outrage of foreigners using Thailand's youth that way

Don't mistake my mentioning this subject for approval of it. It is just the impression I have gotten mainly from talking to Thais. Quite commonly, a Thai will tell me 18 is OLD and especially a lower class Thai 18 year is considered more of an adult than an 18 year old in the west. If others disagree, have at it.

Haven't bothered to follow the Sticky Rice link. But, it is curious that at times LMTU post comments, as long as most of his postings, using perfect spelling and grammar. The rest of the time his posts are a complete distortion of written English.

By the way, why is it that on great ocassion Baziel posts a comment using correct grammar, perfect spelling and appropriate word choice. The majority of his posts are insensible and his constant use of "white" instead of the morpheme "with" is ever annoying given the chance that he is a native English speaker and never been to Belgium.

Haven't bothered to follow the Sticky Rice link. But, it is curious that at times LMTU post comments, as long as most of his postings, using perfect spelling and grammar. The rest of the time his posts are a complete distortion of written English.

By the way, why is it that on great ocassion Baziel posts a comment using correct grammar, perfect spelling and appropriate word choice. The majority of his posts are insensible and his constant use of "white" instead of the morpheme "with" is ever annoying given the chance that he is a native English speaker and never been to Belgium.

There are 3 or 4 who vary from perfect english to swahili.........one assumes they are under the affluence of incohol at times.

i for one have never read such crap. you come here on hols or you live here one or the other, so all who go to the bars know the story, there after its up to you! if your not happy with the way things are run in a bar or what ever DONT GO. :drunken:

Wow! A lurker comes out of the shadows! Cool.

Whenever this topic comes up; I have always wondered but never asked--Until now.

Up until...1996 or `97. The 'minimum age'...or what ever you want to call it...for working in a go-go or host\hostess bar was 16--And there were 'off-able employees' who were much, much younger, usually put on benches 'up front' (A friend called it the "Peanut Gallery"), usually in 'street clothes': long pants & shirt, and the customer was usually told the "Peanuts" 'could not leave the premises,' meaning: customer must rent a 'short-time room', usually, upstairs. All equaled building the tab--And more money for the bar. Often, you barely touched Naugahyde before a hard-as-a-keg-of-nails butch 'mamasan' was at your side with a 'quaking wee bunny' in tow: "okay, he sit down?"

So, my questions (And I really don't expect answers.): how many old Thailand hands, way back when, offed a boy age 16 (To keep the waters clearer; Forget: "Or under.") and thought it was all right?
And why so?
And (Since many of those older punters may no longer be around) if 16, as outlined above, were still the rule; how many would go for it?
And why so?
I'm not making a judgment; I'm just curious. Especially, regarding the, why.

is ever annoying given the chance that he is a native English speaker and never been to Belgium.

Thanks for the great compliment if i look like a native English speaker but you assume me that i am not in Belgium ! Some on SF have my phonenr. and call me offend. Any other country in the wold start whit (e), 0032 ?


There are 3 or 4 who vary from perfect english to swahili.........one assumes they are under the affluence of incohol at times.

I can't beat you on that Oogie !

[Dodger]

Thaiquila...I actually think you and I are on the same page regarding this issue.

What I was attempting to explain earlier is that due to the fact that the sex industry in LOS is so intertwined with corruption that the risk a visitor is exposed to is defined by the "system"... not Thai law. We all know that prostitution is illegal in LOS, but the risks are extremely minimal because prostitution is protected within the "system." When a bar, meaning the bar owner, fails to comply with the demands placed on him (by the system)...in Chicago we simply refer to this as a bribe, everybody is at risk...the bar owner, the staff, the customers...nobodies safe. If a farang really wants to minimize risk, avoid the places that are constantly getting raided - because they have one foot on a banana peel and the other in a grave.

Baziel...be careful with those freelancers my friend as they're not accountable to anyone, nor are they traceable.

[Aunty]

Without wanting to take this thread too off topic but I was wondering just how many tourists who visit Thailand actually do go to the gogo bars, massage places, and other joints of prostitution? I've often read in here that sex-tourism is so large in Thailand now that it adds up to a significant chunk of their GDP - hence the Thais will never enforce their laws on prostitution for fear of harming the economy. Quite frankly I don't believe this, or even find it a particularly credible argument although I might be wrong and I would be very interested to read other peoples comments about this.

As I understand it there are now many many millions of tourists who travel to Thailand each year for a holiday. The thought that all or even most of these visitors 'off' a prostitute while there seems totally implausible to me. The numbers just don't add up. If this was really the case you'd need a Gogo bar on every corner and at least one million Thai sex workers to staff them all. That would be around 2% of the population working as ho's! Let's get real people!

I imagine that the numbers of foreign tourists who are actually offing a sex worker in Thailand is probably no more than around 5-10% of all visitors. That's still a lot of people yet would require only a sex-worker base of around 40,000 people, numbers that seem to me at least much more reasonable. Given these smaller numbers, if indeed they are correct and I've seen no reliable studies that state what the actual numbers actually are, the contribution of sex-tourism to both tourism and the Thai economy would seem to be very much smaller than is commonly supposed. If I am correct then this suggests to me that the argument that the Thai authorities turn a blind eye to their sex-industry because to do otherwise would 'seriously harm the economy' is incorrect. It seems to me they could actually shut it down with little economic effect.

Well then maybe the real reason is because this industry is so small, but nevertheless is a lucrative source of kick backs and easy money to corrupt police officers and other officials. Powerful men in powerful places would loose a lot of money so they leave things as they are. But seriously, there would only need to be one public word spoken by the King against the 'farang-sex industry' (or by the Prime Minister) and the whole shabang would be shut down overnight, but to the best of my knowledge the King (nor any of his Prime Ministers') have made this one of their social priorities for Thailand.

No maybe the real reason prostitution is tolerated in Thailand is for something entirely different altogether. Maybe shock horror, many many more Thai themselves use the services of sex workers than we'll ever know and they'll ever admit to. That preserving the status quo actually serves a very important social function (rather than an economic one) in Thai society for Thai, and it is this, not the farang sex-tourists and the relatively small amounts of money that they bring that keeps the bars and disco's open, and the police happily looking the other way with their hands out exploiting this useful ambiguity. And neither King nor common man is foolhardy enough to try and cut across such and important but unacknowledged social institution.

No maybe the real reason prostitution is tolerated in Thailand is for something entirely different altogether. Maybe shock horror, many many more Thai themselves use the services of sex workers than we'll ever know and they'll ever admit to. That preserving the status quo actually serves a very important social function (rather than an economic one) in Thai society for Thai, and it is this, not the farang sex-tourists and the relatively small amounts of money that they bring that keeps the bars and disco's open, and the police happily looking the other way with their hands out exploiting this useful ambiguity. And neither King nor common man is foolhardy enough to try and cut across such and important but unacknowledged social institution.

And there Aunty you have hit the nail on the head.

The financial arm of the company that I work for in Bangkok deals with the financial affairs of many Thais from the upper echelons of Thai society.

Many have no problem in speaking frankly about Thai culture and the difference in how various aspects are perceived differently by farangs and Thais.

Your assumption that the King could stop the farang sex tourism industry overnight is correct, but this would affect the income of a lot of well placed Thais who benefit from the various kickbacks that come up the chain and it would cause a lot of unrest amongst the very people that the stability of the Kingdom relies upon.

There are two distinct sex trades in the Kingdom, that established for the farang and the one there for the Thais. Ask yourself how often do you see a Thai in a bar or club frequented by farangs that is looking to buy sex? Very very rarely.

The Thais have their own bars and clubs where farangs would not be at all welcome, well away from the tourist areas and where the 'legal age' is not recognised. Thai to Thai prostitution is acceptable to Thais as part of the Thai culture and the availability of underage
girls and boys is as readily available as it has been for decades.

One of my clients, a well heeled and very well placed member of Thai society, married with two children and the obligatory second wife openly admits to frequenting clubs in a particular area of Bangkok where he can pick and choose, as can any other Thai who can pay the going rate, from 'hosts' of all ages and of both sexes. He sees nothing wrong in being able to choose the age of host he wants and neither would ant of Thai providing it was Thai/Thai. There are no paydays for the BIB from these bars as they are not, providing they supply the service to Thais only -or very well connected friends of a Thai- doing anything 'illegal. For the BIB to demand payments from any business requires authorisation from a high level and to demand payment from these bars would cause disrupution to the leisure activities of too many well connected and important people.

As you rightly assume the actual number of sex tourists when compared to ther total number of tourist to Thailand is but a small and insignificant number when talking about the total income from the tourist industry as a whole.

Edith wrote :


So my questions


and way so ?


how many would go for it?


and way so ?


I'm not making a jusment ; just curious..


(And I really don't expect answers.):

Ah lady's, madams, they so difficult to understand ! :drunken:

[Aunty]

Thank you Naughty But Nice, that is very informative. A fascinating subject and insight into the Thai culture and way of life huh? I was wondering then from the Thai friends and colleagues you speak of, what do they think about the farang/ sex-tourism industry in Thailand given their own use of (and implied acceptance) of the Thai sex industry?

This is wonderful Naughty, lets have lots more of this side of you and less put downs, donтАЩt make the writer a star, make the writing and your a star today, with this post credit where its due.

I use to go to Puerto Rico in the Caribbean a lot as soon and the USA wanted to take it over the country, they brought in Social Security then just about over night prostitution went to the very minimum.

Same will apply here in Thailand eventually you see,.
What are you saying?
The US wants to take over Thailand?
I think you have been to too many cocktail parties lately.
Puerto Rico is an unincorporated territory of the United States.

...they brought in Social Security then just about over night prostitution went to the very minimum.What is the correlation there? "Social Security" with capital letters means the federal Social Security Administration? It pays stipends mainly to retired, widowed and/or disabled people. How would giving financial assistance to those groups of people lessen the supply of (or is it demand for) prostitutes???

My advice is to not waste your time trying to decipher any of LMTU's gibberish. Even the CIA's best code-breakers would be stumped.

Thank you Naughty But Nice, that is very informative. A fascinating subject and insight into the Thai culture and way of life huh? I was wondering then from the Thai friends and colleagues you speak of, what do they think about the farang/ sex-tourism industry in Thailand given their own use of (and implied acceptance) of the Thai sex industry?

From speaking to both colleagues at work and clients in my portfolio there appears to be little animosity to the Farang/Thai sex trade. It is accepted as part of the tourist trade much the same way that Amsterdam and KingsтАЩ Cross (Sydney) is.

What does however obviously upset Thais is the way that so many message boards and forums openly discuss the bars/clubs and the тАШhostsтАЩ and go into detail of the sex and sexual preferences of both client and host. The Thais see sex as a private act and they feel that message boards/forums demean the citizens of the Kingdom and have falsely turned the reputation of Thailand into one where prostitution is the main overseas money earner.

This is also one of the reasons that many boards are being blocked by the government who whilst accepting that prostitution does and will continue to exist but are not best pleased with boards that deal with the business in often such lurid detail.

As for the underage trade, again I can only gauge from what my clients say: As previously stated the underage trade is totally accepted in Thai culture between Thai/Thai, in fact there does not appear to be a delineation line between the ages, but between Thai/Farang it is taboo. Pattaya and one particular Soi in Bangkok are seen as the centres of the child sex trade for Farangs with Pattaya having gained a worldwide reputation as a haven for paedophiles seeking children of both sexes. To the average Thai the тАШhuntingтАЩ of Thai children by Farangs offends the Thai culture and this is one of the reasons that slowly but surely more arrests are being made where Farangs are not able to buy themselves out of trouble and with international agreements feel the full force of the judicial system either in Thailand or in their own country.

As for the clubs that the Thais use these are totally different from the bars/clubs frequented by Farangs and are run on a completely different footing then Farang bars.

In February after completing an extremely successful financial year for some of our тАШDiamond StatusтАЩ clients, two fellow directors and myself were invited by two Thai clients to an evening at one of their clubs.

The bar was in a nondescript building a few Km from Silom Road. It was a membership only club and our hosts signed us in as guests. At first we the Farangs were somewhat of a novelty factor it being a Thai only club. It would appear that membership was mainly comprised of the affluent Thai and the entertainment varied from the usual Thai dancing to short stints of Karaoke.

There was none of the meat market approach that is experienced in bars for Farangs, the hosts girls and boys of all ages were well dressed with no nudity on display and no groping of the тАШhostsтАЩ There was no тАШoffтАЩ fee in the sense that we know it and this is apparently covered in the Annual Membership fee that each member pays. Taking a boy/girl from the club area to a room or from the premises was a very discreet affair with no member of staff being obviously involved.

On the night we visited there were about 30 girls and 20 boys working as hosts and in addition underage workers of around 15 girls and 20 boys with ages ranging from probably 11 тАУ 16 years. Everyone appeared to mix freely although no doubt there was a hierarchy in play but which was not apparent to us three Farangs.

In the four hours that we were at the club a number of girls, boys and children left with their clients and later in the evening others arrived. It was explained that with the children the client is usually a benefactor for the childтАЩs family and payment or benefit is given to the head of the family rather that the тАШhostтАЩ

Everybody in the club fully accepted what appeared to be an unwritten rule that Farang guests were treated with the same courtesy extended to the club members and apart from the initial glances of curiosity when we first arrived we were treated with the utmost respect by everyone we met. Even when we were offered the chance to select a тАШhostтАЩ and we declined the respect was maintained and when we left at 3am there were warm WaiтАЩs of goodbye from the hosts and other members.

Naughty, thanks for that documentation of the usually hidden (to outsiders) reality of Thai life.

thanks Naughty But Nice. That is a truly fascinating story.

[Hmmm]

Prostitution is illegal in Thailand, but has anyone EVER heard of a CUSTOMER being arrested for buying the services of a legal age prostiture?!!!
Of course not.
So, in effect, it is de facto LEGAL. Period. Really no ambiguity. There is really NO risk at all buying the services of a legal age prostitute.


The distinction between customer and provider in Thai prostitution law does not seem to be widely known ...

http://www.tatnews.org/special_interest/1484.asp

"THE PROSTITUTION PREVENTION AND SUPPRESSION ACT B.E. 2539 (1996)

In April 1996, the Royal Thai Government of Thailand passed stringent anti-prostitution laws with the most severe penalties reserved for those involved in child prostitution. Now customers, procurers, brothel owners, those who force children into prostitution and even parents, face long prison sentences as well as large fines. The penalties under Thailand's new Prostitution Prevention and Suppression Act are as follows:

CUSTOMERS

* 2-6 years jail if prostitutes are under 15 years old
* 0-3 years jail if prostitutes are between 15 and 18 years old

PROCURERS

* 1-10 years jail if prostitutes are over 18 years old
* 5-15 years jail if prostitutes are between 15 and 18 years old
* 10-20 years jail if prostitutes are under 15 years old

VENUE OWNERS

* 0-15 years jail if prostitutes are over 18 years old
* 5-15 years jail if prostitutes are between 15 and 18 years old
* 10-20 years jail if prostitutes are under 15 years old

PARENTS

* 4-20 years jail if prostitutes are under 18 years old
* Those who force or torture others into prostitution 1-20 years jail
* Life sentence if prostitutes are seriously injured
* Death penalty if prostitutes are killed"

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In short, according to Thai Law, a CUSTOMER engaging in prostitution with an over-18 year old is not guilty of anything. It is only illegal for procurers and venue owners.

However the BIB (with TV crew in tow) can of course detain customers under the 'suggestion' of illegal activities. While they will never be convicted, that and the publicity may be just as bad.