Thailand is ......

[Dodger]

Rainwalker...are you drunk???

Joking...

I have only one word for it: HOME.

[catawampuscat]

Thailand is waiting for your return rainwalker
Are you related to skywalker??

Thailand is waiting for your return rainwalker
Are you related to skywalker??

Are you sure you don't mean Streetwalker?
(Only joking...I'm a bad widdle kid...but I love ya', Rainwalker. :love7: )

A little bit of heaven on earth.

Everytime I touch down at any of the Thai airports, I always feel like I am returning home. This is one feeling I find it hard to describe...... I get a sense of belonging and seeing so many smiling faces. People who seem poor but feeling happy.

Beautifully stated Rustee.

[PeterUK]

I've been living in Thailand full-time for about 9 months now and am enjoying the experience on the whole. But do I think of it as home? Not a chance. I find such a notion utterly fanciful. I know my money is welcome in Thailand and I hope a few Thais have grown fond of me, but I lack anything like the sense of security I have in my own country. If I have to deal with officialdom, including the police, in England I know how to do it with confidence; here I'm never quite sure of the outcome even if I have all the necessary paperwork and am completely above board. The daily news makes it clear to me that I live in a country where corruption reigns from top to bottom. I have small proofs of it every time yet another item of mail goes infuriatingly astray I could be thrown out at any time on any pretext and have no comeback. That famous Thai smile could turn to a frown in an instant. I don't think I'll ever feel sure that, in general, we farangs are wanted here apart from the economic benefits we bring. How can one honestly say one feels at home in such a situation? A lot more than cute available boys is needed to produce that feeling.

[Hmmm]

One big train wreck ... and I mean that in the nicest possible way.

I've been living in Thailand full-time for about 9 months now and am enjoying the experience on the whole. But do I think of it as home? Not a chance. I find such a notion utterly fanciful. I know my money is welcome in Thailand and I hope a few Thais have grown fond of me, but I lack anything like the sense of security I have in my own country. If I have to deal with officialdom, including the police, in England I know how to do it with confidence; here I'm never quite sure of the outcome even if I have all the necessary paperwork and am completely above board. The daily news makes it clear to me that I live in a country where corruption reigns from top to bottom. I have small proofs of it every time yet another item of mail goes infuriatingly astray I could be thrown out at any time on any pretext and have no comeback. That famous Thai smile could turn to a frown in an instant. I don't think I'll ever feel sure that, in general, we farangs are wanted here apart from the economic benefits we bring. How can one honestly say one feels at home in such a situation? A lot more than cute available boys is needed to produce that feeling.
Indeed, Peter.
It most certainly is a totally different thing living in Thailand vs. visiting Thailand.
I also totally understand the feeling of being at home here, but like many feelings (including love) often an illusion/delusion.

Paradise lost

Katherine Horton travelled to Thailand lured by the promise of a palm-fringed idyll. Instead she met her death at the hands of two local fishermen. As they await sentence Lorna Martin uncovers the harsh truth behind the postcard images


observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,1686848,00.html (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,1686848,00.html)

[PeterUK]

To amplify my earlier post, I certainly understand how people might have a sentimental attachment to Thailand; there are plenty of things to admire about the place. I have a sentimental attachment to it myself. But to use that as a basis for calling it 'home' - well, that's just being sentimental. To feel at home in any real sense I need to know that the institutions of the country give me protection and I don't feel that in Thailand (a caveat: at the street level, just walking about, I feel as safe, if not safer, in Thailand than I do in London). The political institutions are not mature here and there could still be upheavals, even a coup, which could adversely affect farangs. I am very reluctant to deposit large sums of money in Thai banks for any period. I wouldn't even think about taking a Thai to court, even if I knew myself to be in the right. The postal system I've already commented on. The police might be helpful or... they might not. Corruption on a large scale affects all these institutions. Throw in the ambivalent attitude of Thais to farangs and you don't have a recipe for homeliness in my opinion. If you think so - bully for you!

[elephantspike]

sprawling, delicious, traditional, overdeveloped, exotic, golden, infuriating, astonishing, pungent, ultra-modern, creative, pacific, tropical, swirling, hectic, contemporary, surprising, stressful, frenetic, hip, steamy, cheap, refreshing, frantic, spicy, smiling, sublime, third world, historic, regal, air-conditioned, urban, atmospheric, corrupt, fast-paced, mad, graceful, rural, farcical, crowded, surprising, hungry, cacophonous, sexy, dynamic, and confusing.

En espa├▒ol:

el arrellanar, delicioso, tradicional, overdeveloped, ex├│tico, de oro, enfureci├йndose, asombroso, acre, ultra-moderno, creativo, pac├нfico, tropical, remolinando, agitado, contempor├бneo, el sorprender, agotador, fren├йtico, cadera, steamy, barato, restauraci├│n, fren├йtico, picante, sonriendo, sublima, tercer mundo, hist├│rico, real, con aire acondicionado, urbano, atmosf├йrico, corrupto, ra'pido-establecido el paso, enojado, agraciado, rural, farcical, apretado, sorprendiendo, hambriento, cacophonous, atractivo, din├бmico, y confusi├│n.

En Fran├зais:

s'├йtendre, d├йlicieux, traditionnel, overdeveloped, exotique, d'or, f├вchant, ├йtonnant, piquant, ultra-moderne, cr├йateur, Pacifique, tropical, tourbillonnant, agit├й, contemporain, ├йtonner, stressant, fr├йn├йtique, hanche, steamy, bon march├й, r├йg├йn├йration, effr├йn├й, ├йpic├й, souriant, subliment, le tiers monde, historique, majestueux, climatis├й, urbain, atmosph├йrique, corrompu, rapide-entra├оn├й, fou, gracieux, rural, absurde, serr├й, ├йtonnant, affam├й, cacophonous, sexy, dynamique, et confondre.

Auf Deutsch:

das Ausbreiten, k├╢stlich, traditionell, overdeveloped, exotisch, golden, infuriating, erstaunlich, scharf, extrem-modern, kreativ, pazifisch, tropisch und wirbelte, hectic, zeitgen├╢ssisch, das ├Ьberraschen, stressful, frenetic, H├╝fte, steamy, preiswert, das Erneuern, frantic, w├╝rzig und l├дchelte, sublime, dritte Welt, historisch, regal, klimatisiert, st├дdtisch, atmosph├дrisch, verdorben, schnell-geschritten, w├╝tend, w├╝rdevoll, landwirtschaftlich, farcical, gedr├дngt und ├╝berraschte, hungrig, cacophonous, reizvoll, dynamisch und Verwirren

[elephantspike]

And... (by popular request);

Chinese:


懒散, 可口, 传统, overdeveloped, 异乎寻常, 金黄, 激怒, 令人惊讶, 辛辣, 超现代, 创造性, 大西洋, 热带, 打旋 , 忙碌, 当代, 惊奇, 紧张, 狂热, 臀部, steamy, 便宜, 消除疲 劳, 狂热, 辣, 微笑, 升华, 第三世界, 历史, 豪华, 有冷气, 都 市, 大气, 腐败, 快速踱步于, 疯狂, 优美, 农村, 荒唐, 拥挤, 惊奇, 饥饿, cacophonous, 性感, 动态, 和混淆。

Peter is right. If you accidently took a towel from pool to room. And, for some Thai reason, the police were called. And say you had to go to court and you were fined 500 baht then you would also be immediately deported. But if you had no money to buy your ticket you would go to jail without chance of repeal. Meanwhile what would happen to your property because you would NOT be allowed back into Thailand.... frankly I would prefer to be in Canada not a thousand miles from the White House, surrounded by insects in the spring, grim cold winters, and a lot of people speaking a curious form of French. Better than that, of course, would be the UK where your chances of a monthly parking fine of 7000 baht would be a reasonable risk to face. There are cameras everywhere as we stagger about in fear of the next bomb, and the local government cashes in on the facility. Worse,the entire country is run by the Scots and their most vehment spokesman is just calling for a sense of British patriotism to be built up......... cannot wait to get back to Thailand.

Without wanting to take part in the political tit for tat, I believe even a weak old shed can be a home, if you're contented to stay there.

Since when does a police force and security make a home? If that was the main priority, why do many farang elect to live in Thailand long term at all? For the great police? One would think that emigrating farang would take responsible steps to avoid acquiring negative feelings about their new home. Thailand will be my home some day. The UK will just be where I keep my investments.

But who wants to live in the bank, when you can live on the beach?

[PeterUK]

I believe even a weak old shed can be a home, if you're contented to stay there.

Yes, these things are subjective, aren't they, objective. If home is where the heart is, then I suppose what I'm really saying is that my heart isn't in Thailand. Lots of things I like about the place, lots of things I don't. Such is life. As for your comment that 'one would think that emigrating farang would take responsible steps to avoid acquiring negative feelings about their new home', sorry to be so irresponsible but I reserve the right to exercise my critical faculties under all circumstances, even in boy heaven.

Oh, and Rainwalker, I fully appreciate your aversion to GW Bush. Over here we just have a Prime Minister who has thousands of his fellow-citizens killed in a 'war on drugs', goodness knows how many of them innocent victims of neighbourly spite. Not only does he face no serious moral censure at home, but he is re-elected in a landslide. Frankly, I wouldn't sleep easily in my bed if I was either of them.

I believe even a weak old shed can be a home, if you're contented to stay there.

Yes, these things are subjective, aren't they, objective. If home is where the heart is, then I suppose what I'm really saying is that my heart isn't in Thailand. Lots of things I like about the place, lots of things I don't. Such is life. As for your comment that 'one would think that emigrating farang would take responsible steps to avoid acquiring negative feelings about their new home', sorry to be so irresponsible but I reserve the right to exercise my critical faculties under all circumstances, even in boy heaven.

Oh, and Rainwalker, I fully appreciate your aversion to GW Bush. Over here we just have a Prime Minister who has thousands of his fellow-citizens killed in a 'war on drugs', goodness knows how many of them innocent victims of neighbourly spite. Not only does he face no serious moral censure at home, but he is re-elected in a landslide. Frankly, I wouldn't sleep easily in my bed if I was either of them.
When you move to Thailand, you CANNOT become a Thai, because Thailand will not let you even if you wanted to.
(OK, some tiny few farang do become Thai citizens, I am talking about becoming a Thai, not the same.)
Sure, you can learn alot about the culture and well you should.
Bottom line is that wherever you go, you are still you.
I am in the earlier stages of expatriation and have already gone through some interesting phases, some of them disturbing.
People really shouldn't harshly judge people's feelings or reactions to the dramatic experience of living in a different culture.
I had another thought recently about expatriation.
Many people who do expatriate did not find their previous country such a great fit for their temperament.
So they choose another country to live in that is hopefully a better fit for them. However, to expect that new country to be perfect or their adaptation to it to be perfect is really asking way too much for the real world.
And if part of that adaptation is being critical of the negative aspects of the new country, so be it.

I don't feel the definition of a home is subjective, no. I am arguing that comfort and contentedness are example of objective prerequisites for identifying a single home amongst multiple places of residence.

I also believe that the state of the police force is a highly subjective factor in determining comfort and contentedness. If your view on the police were the case, then the majority of Thai's would be miserable due to the inadequate police , but they appear far from it. If the police make you feel at home, why not sleep at a police station?

Of course you reserve the right to free speech. Just remember that any upset you experience due to the contrast that is boy heaven, is not due to boy heaven, but due to your own adaptability. Can't expect a long enduring relationship, with a person, nor a country, if you don't go in with your eyes and mind wide open. I didn't say free speech nor critique are irresponsible. However, electing to place oneself into an environment one finds difficult to cope with, which causes upset, and complaining instead of taking action, is irresponsible in my view.

We are all as good as our current VISA.
We all (unless you are a perm resident which is a tiny minority) can be booted out of Thailand at any time, for a just or unjust reason, with almost no chance for appeal.
I love Thailand and I hope to settle here for the rest of my life.
However, you have to have your eyes wide open.
Its a good thing we all have valid passports.

There are relatively few places in the world where a foreigner -- especially one of a different race -- can become naturalized and "become" a local. Even in the US, there are huge swaths of redneck yokels who think that if you talk with a foreign accent, wear a turban on your head, or are anything other than Christian (or maybe Jewish, if you're in one of the more progressive redneck states), you are never fully "'Merican". The same could be said of the UK, Germany, and many other so-called "civilized" Western states. We're talking about human nature here.

There are relatively few places in the world where a foreigner -- especially one of a different race -- can become naturalized and "become" a local. Even in the US, there are huge swaths of redneck yokels who think that if you talk with a foreign accent, wear a turban on your head, or are anything other than Christian (or maybe Jewish, if you're in one of the more progressive redneck states), you are never fully "'Merican". The same could be said of the UK, Germany, and many other so-called "civilized" Western states. We're talking about human nature here.
I disagree with you there.
At least in the cases of the US and Canada, a legal immigrant can indeed become American or Canadian and have all of the rights of his fellow citizens.
This is simply not the case in Thailand.

[PeterUK]

I don't feel the definition of a home is subjective, no. I am arguing that comfort and contentedness are example of objective prerequisites for identifying a single home amongst multiple places of residence.

I won't beat about the bush, objective, I'm beginning to suspect that you're a pompous ass. Try to divest yourself of the urge to impress us and rewrite the above in plain English. At the moment, I can assure you, it is gobbledegook. If you're trying to suggest that it is rational for people to seek comfort and contentment in their choice of home, that's too obvious for words. But what constitutes comfort and contentment is clearly an individual matter differing from one person to another ie it is subjective. To use your own example, I don't think many of us would find contentment in your 'weak old shed'.


I also believe that the state of the police force is a highly subjective factor in determining comfort and contentedness. If your view on the police were the case, then the majority of Thai's would be miserable due to the inadequate police , but they appear far from it. If the police make you feel at home, why not sleep at a police station?

You seem to be suggesting that I am somehow misguided in my judgment that the Thai police are corrupt or that, even if I'm not, it doesn't matter because the Thais all love their police so much. Either way, an utterly extraordinary statement on your part! I won't even bother to argue the first point - read a few newspapers. And for the condescension of your second point you deserve to be confronted by some of the many Thais who suffer unjustly at the hands of their own police all the time - some won't be able to make it because they've 'disappeared' or 'committed suicide'. The Thai police are regarded as a necessary evil by any Thai I have ever spoken to on the matter. And even if that was not so, I would be justified in feeling a little uneasy knowing how corrupt they are and that I might one day have to defend myself against some scam or other in their presence. I wonder how long your cloying smugness would last in that situation.




Of course you reserve the right to free speech. Just remember that any upset you experience due to the contrast that is boy heaven, is not due to boy heaven, but due to your own adaptability. Can't expect a long enduring relationship, with a person, nor a country, if you don't go in with your eyes and mind wide open. I didn't say free speech nor critique are irresponsible. However, electing to place oneself into an environment one finds difficult to cope with, which causes upset, and complaining instead of taking action, is irresponsible in my view.


Your presumption rating really goes off the scale in your last paragraph, doesn't it. As someone who has been coming to Thailand for over 15 years, I need none of your psycho-babble about 'adaptability' and the rest of it, thanks all the same. For you the only acceptable role for the farang in Thailand is clearly that of the gleeful fan (to criticise is to find it 'difficult to cope'!), but I'll continue to respond to the dazzling charms and grim undercurrents of this country exactly as I see fit and, if any of that prompts more puffed-up, self-important impulses in you, I'd advise you to try and curb them in order not to make such a damn fool of yourself again.

It certainly IS the case in Thailand. You CAN become naturalized in Thailand and have all the legal rights as a Thai person does. It's not easy, but then neither is immigrating to the US. It takes years and years, and in many cases, lots of money and/or intelligence/talent.

We were talking about the perceptions of the Thai people: e.g., would they ever accept a white-faced person as a "real Thai", even if they held a Thai ID card? I think some would and some wouldn't, just like some redneck Americans/Canadians might not consider someone who dressed in flowing robes and spoke little English a "real American".

Why WOULDN'T the police be corrupt in Thailand? EVERY branch of the civil service is corrupt. The military is corrupt. The government is corrupt.

If you have a low threshold for this kind of thing, it's not the country for you. People who live here successfully learn to live with it at least, adapt to it if possible, and even benefit from it in certain cases.

PeterUK. No wonder you appear to have such a gripe about Thailand. Certainly if you are accustomed to treating people in such an ill-mannered way, then your feelings towards Thailand may not be all that surprising.

Needless to say, I love Thailand, and find it very difficult to complain about how well treated I feel over there, and how happy everyone seems. If you cannot say the same, it's by your own doing.

PeterUK. No wonder you appear to have such a gripe about Thailand. Certainly if you are accustomed to treating people in such an ill-mannered way, then your feelings towards Thailand may not be all that surprising.

Needless to say, I love Thailand, and find it very difficult to complain about how well treated I feel over there, and how happy everyone seems. If you cannot say the same, it's by your own doing.
I love Thailand also and live here now.
I do not wish to become Thai and I think only a small minority of farang here really want to become Thai.
I still contend because of culture and economics, it is a very different thing for a Westerner to move to a country like Thailand and inward migration to Western countries. They are apples and oranges.
However, it sounds like maybe Peter is living in Thai land, and you "objective" are living in fantasy land.
Of course, everyone treats you well as a free spending tourist.
Everyone "seems" happy says alot.

Of course, everyone treats you well as a free spending tourist.
Everyone "seems" happy says alot.

Spit it out. What does it say? The contrast is the UK, where everyone “seems” unhappy. So few people respond to my nor anyone elses smile. That says a lot too. Also, in the UK, everyone treats me as a free spending consumer. What's spending got to do with anything?

I am shocked at the farang that question the sanity of those whom lack their own deep rooted grudge against Thai culture.

Of course, everyone treats you well as a free spending tourist.
Everyone "seems" happy says alot.

Spit it out. What does it say? The contrast is the UK, where everyone тАЬseemsтАЭ unhappy. So few people respond to my nor anyone elses smile. That says a lot too. Also, in the UK, everyone treats me as a free spending consumer. What's spending got to do with anything?

I am shocked at the farang that question the sanity of those whom lack their own deep rooted grudge against Thai culture.
Sorry, but it is clear you have a lot to learn about Thai culture.
Smiles in Thailand don't mean what you think.
They mean many different things. Many of those things aren't happy things.
Enjoy your sanuk. Ba bye.

Smiles in Thailand don't mean what you think.

Are you suggesting Thai people are miserable, or that I am crazy for seeing Thai people are happy care free people? I cannot tell which.

I can tell the difference between a well meaning smile, and an asian 'yes, mmm, I don't want to cause a loss of face but will you just go away please' smile. Personally, I never get the latter, which must be why we feel differently on this subject.

Irrespective, I do not share your negative views. I am just shocked that I am attacked for not sharing such views. Excuse me for being so free of ambivalence towards the Thai people and culture.

Perhaps this is what Thaiquila was referring to: http://www.into-asia.com/thailand/culture/smile.php ?

Smiles in Thailand don't mean what you think.

Are you suggesting Thai people are miserable, or that I am crazy for seeing Thai people are happy care free people? I cannot tell which.

I can tell the difference between a well meaning smile, and an asian 'yes, mmm, I don't want to cause a loss of face but will you just go away please' smile. Personally, I never get the latter, which must be why we feel differently on this subject.

Irrespective, I do not share your negative views. I am just shocked that I am attacked for not sharing such views. Excuse me for being so free of ambivalence towards the Thai people and culture.
I really really do not know where you are coming from, but you sound very defensive.
Personally, I haven't the foggiest on whether Thai people are more or less happy than Western people.
I think the very concept of "happy" is different in Thai culture.
Do I think you are crazy? Maybe. I don't have a strong opinion on that, rather I suspect you are in an earlier stage of interaction with Thailand.
Do I think Thai people are care free?
No I do not.
Sounds like you are suffering from the classic romantization of non-Westerner cultures that has appeared throughout history.
I think most of us can relate to how you feel, because we have had or still have those feelings (at an earlier stage). I like to think I am more mature and realistic now.
Sorry if you feel attacked.

[dab69]

wandering around Bangkok I see few smiling faces, unless they think they are about to receive money from me. Usually in the heat of the afternoon at the bus stops you see the weary hot underpaid workers on their way home.
Perhaps a job in the tourist industry dealing with happy travelers is different and more enjoyable.

I really really do not know where you are coming from, but you sound very defensive.

I state that I have no grudges against Thai people and culture, and other people instantly assume me to be uninformed, unrealistic and immature for holding such a view. That is very pessimistic. It makes me question what sort of history of interactions such a person has had to leave them so embittered.

I suppose one does feel defensive when scrutinised for expressing affection, and a lack of negative feelings. I am certainly not used to it, from any culture. Maybe it is web board culture? Still I strongly believe in personal responsibility. Thank you for the website though, I didn't know that each circumstance had an applicable name.

Still, I certainly don't find anything mentioned anywhere in this thread to be grounds for me to feel negative about Thai culture, and fail to see how anyone else could. In fact, I find Thai smiling in all its guises to be a redeeming and civilized quality. If that makes me immature and ignorant, up to you.

I really really do not know where you are coming from, but you sound very defensive.

I state that I have no grudges against Thai people and culture, and other people instantly assume me to be uninformed, unrealistic and immature for holding such a view. That is very pessimistic. It makes me question what sort of history of interactions such a person has had to leave them so embittered.

I suppose one does feel defensive when scrutinised for expressing affection, and a lack of negative feelings. I am certainly not used to it, from any culture. Maybe it is web board culture? Still I strongly believe in personal responsibility. Thank you for the website though, I didn't know that each circumstance had an applicable name.

Still, I certainly don't find anything mentioned anywhere in this thread to be grounds for me to feel negative about Thai culture, and fail to see how anyone else could. In fact, I find Thai smiling in all its guises to be a redeeming and civilized quality. If that makes me immature and ignorant, up to you.
Well, I think if you honestly feel Thailand is so wonderful, you should enjoy that feeling and run with it.
I take the more realistic, and I consider, thoughtful view, that Thailand, like all countries on earth has some wonderful aspects, some horrible aspects, and lots in between.
I chose to move to Thailand for a variety of personal and economic reasons, and also because the Thai government in its wisdom has made it legally possible for me to live here. However, there is more to it than that. I have been all over the world, and wherever I go, I always have the feeling, well this is great (or not) but it isn't Thailand, because there is no place like Thailand. So I love it too.

However, before we go all bonkers, do keep in mind that there are OBJECTIVELY many problems in Thai society that are really very bad things, such as the recent murders of thousands of Thai people without trials during the so called drug war. Sorry, I can't embrace or applaud such things in any country.

Rather, I am curious about your psychological makeup? Do you choose to be UNINFORMED about the OBJECTIVE negative aspects of Thai society because it bums you out?

If so, do you (who seems to be so obsessed with personal responsibility) consider that an intellectually responsible position?

However, before we go all bonkers, do keep in mind that there are OBJECTIVELY many problems in Thai society that are really very bad things, such as the recent murders of thousands of Thai people without trials during the so called drug war.

I would condemn corrupt killings too. But such happening don't make me miserable, and you sure wont see me organizing a protest march. This may just be due to a pragmatic attitude to politics I hold. Perhaps that helps me deal with the Thai political climate better than others, who crack easily.

I doubt you will be organizing any protests. However if you lose sleep over the injustices of the world, as I said, it's down to nobody but yourself to learn to deal with it. Not everyone is as sad as yourself.

To answer your question, I welcome all information both negative and positive. However I make it my priority to look after my own wellbeing. And yes, I see that as reasonable and responsible, even if you don't. Enjoy your self martyrdom.

However, before we go all bonkers, do keep in mind that there are OBJECTIVELY many problems in Thai society that are really very bad things, such as the recent murders of thousands of Thai people without trials during the so called drug war.

I would condemn corrupt killings too. But such happening don't make me miserable, and you sure wont see me organizing a protest march. This may just be due to a pragmatic attitude to politics I hold. Perhaps that helps me deal with the Thai political climate better than others, who crack easily.

I doubt you will be organizing any protests. However if you lose sleep over the injustices of the world, as I said, it's down to nobody but yourself to learn to deal with it. Not everyone is as sad as yourself.

To answer your question, I welcome all information both negative and positive. However I make it my priority to look after my own wellbeing. And yes, I see that as reasonable and responsible, even if you don't. Enjoy your self martyrdom.
How would you imagine that I am a martyr?
I certainly do admire people who do lose sleep about the injustices in the world and do something aboit it, those that do organize protests or try to change things for the better, but as a foreigner in Thailand that would be an insane thing to do, so we will have to leave it to the Thai people to do such things, and frankly, not holding my breath ...
I agree with you that taking care of yourself and those around you is the most ordinary human beings can hope to do.
However, I personally think those that try to make a real difference are better than ordinary.