Not An Endorsement! / The Scotland Thread Split

[arsenal]

You lost the referendum OK. YOUR PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT INDEPENDENCE. And supposing you'd won. You wold have to find something else to be angry about. You've always been tetchy but since then you've become virtually slavering with rage.

[scottish-guy]

I'm not the one SHOUTING dear.

You won the #indyref - get over it!

=))

[arsenal]

It wasn't me who won. It was Scotland.

[scottish-guy]

It wasn't me who won. It was Scotland.

You don't speak for Scotland.

[scottish-guy]

And neither do you Scottish. Quite clearly.

I dont claim to - you're the one that's making pronouncements, not me.

it's far from certain that the #indyref result was genuine but that's in the past and our side is over it even if UKOKers like yourself seem unable to let it go - so let me put it another way:

What happens in Scotland is, frankly, none of your business - you've no vote and no say, so why should we listen to you?

[arsenal]

Scotty: As a UK citizen and with Scotland being a part of The UK what happens there very much is my business. Just as what happens in Wales, England and Northern Ireland is yours. Whether you are interested or not s another matter.

[scottish-guy]

The funny thing is, Arsenal - I never see you seeking to stick your nose into Welsh or NIrish politics - why would that be? Hmmm?

I'll repeat - because you seem to be hard of hearing - #indyref was none of your business the last time (no vote & no say) and it will equally be none of your business the next time.

Whether you're interested or not, is another matter - so basically - you're welcome to watch (and carp) from the sidelines just so long as you know your place and accept that nobody in Scotland is interested in your opinion.

Now, stop disrupting the thread.

[Brad the Impala]

The funny thing is, Arsenal - I never see you seeking to stick your nose into Welsh or NIrish politics - why would that be? Hmmm?

Possibly because on this forum there isn't some Welsh or Irish Rab Nesbitt caricature not only flaunting his chip but using it as a soapbox to stand on and bleat about the kilted cunts failed attempt to break away from the UK.


I'll repeat - because you seem to be hard of hearing - #indyref was none of your business the last time (no vote & no say) and it will equally be none of your business the next time.

You're saying that no one in the UK who didn't have a right to vote in the referendum(ie most of the UK population) has a right to an opinion?


Whether you're interested or not, is another matter - so basically - you're welcome to watch (and carp) from the sidelines just so long as you know your place and accept that nobody in Scotland is interested in your opinion.

For someone who wrote that he doesn't claim to be speaking for Scotland, you are giving a very passable impression of someone who thinks that he is speaking for Scotland. Perhaps a touch of schizophrenia?

[scottish-guy]

Unfortunately there are a number of problems with your contribution:

1. The person to bring Scotland into this topic was actually not myself, but Arsenal - specifically his post of Wed 6 Jan, 2016 4:49 pm. So it seems that it was he who placed his soapbox on the pavement - and if you choose to stand on a soapbox, don't be surprised if you get egged!

2. The third quote you give from my post - answers directly the question you pose arising from the second quote you give. Did you not realise that when composing your post?

I'll summarise my position again - by all means you can voice your opinion from the sidelines but don't think for a minute that it counts for anything. Whenever we have #indyref2 people outwith Scotland still won't have a vote.

Now that I've explained the situation to you, would it be possible for you to save the rest of your observations till Spring? That's the time of year that we traditionally have a use for manure.

[arsenal]

You're probably wasting your time Brad. Scottish is not far short of the SNPs equivalent of Islamic Jihad. Here he is talking about the next vote which he certainly wouldn't be doing had his side won. His rage and fury ooze with every post and it's difficult to know who he hates more, the English or the majority of his fellow countrymen who wouldn't do what he wanted them to.
Scottish: Considerable defences of The UK are based in Scotland including our nuclear deterrent. That in itself makes it my business, doesn't it. As for sticking my nose into Welsh or Norther Irish politics. Well the Welsh don't really have that much in the way of actual politics do they and Northern Ireland seems to be enjoying a period of relative peace so lets leave them to it after a long history of violence.
However, I reserve the right to stick my nose into any and all of the affairs of any part of my country and so should you. It was probably the vitriolic nature of yourself and others like you that persuaded so many to say no. Your insistence on another vote demonstrates that they were right weren't they.

[scottish-guy]

My, My, My!

What a bunch of racist and ignorant crap!!

So, just to be clear:

The Welsh apparently don't have any "actual politics" (despite having their own legislative Assembly - but I'm not surprised a little Englander like Arsenal hasn't noticed that)

The Northern Irish can apparently be dismissed because they're not actually blowing each other up @ the moment, and

Scottish National Party supporters (the UK's 3rd largest political party, despite having potential membership pool of only 9% of the population, and the official 3rd Party in terms of MPs) are apparently now to be likened to Islamic terrorists.

Meanwhile, Scots are also supposed to be grateful for having the UK's weapons of mass destruction sited within 30 minutes of their largest City, not merely without their consent but actually contrary to their wishes.

I would suggest to you Arsenal that it that type of arrogance and ignorance displayed by people like youself (who have absolutely no knowledge of anything north of Watford never mind Scotland), which has transformed the SNP from a fringe party to one which has a near monopoly of Scottish seats in the UK parliament, has a Government majority in Scotland within a proportional system it has been admitted was specifically designed to keep them out of power, and which has reduced the combined Unionist parties in Scotland (Labour, Tory, Liberals) to a miserable rump fighting over who comes second. Furthermore, with around 75% of under 35's now supporting the Scottish National Party, it's kinda clear which way the wind is blowing - and it aint towards the Union.

What really pisses you off (and don't think I don't know it and hence which of your buttons to push every time) - is that 9% of the UK population can now occasionally set the agenda (we saw how the English collectively soiled themselves at the prospect of the SNP holding the balance of power in 2015), are now electing representatives who refuse to be bought and sold for ermine robes in your House of Lords - and there is fuck all that you can do about it.

What you really want is for the rebellious Scots, the "no politics" Welsh, and the "violent" Irish just to shut up and eat their cereal, isn't it.

I'm surprised it's news to you that #indyref2 is on the cards - the criteria for holding it have been well-publicised and it's generally accepted as inevitable, with only the timing to be decided, The prospect will be advanced if (as seems likely) English votes drag the rest of the UK out of the EU against their democratic will.

When #indyref2 does happen, you'll have no say in the matter <sound of buttons being pushed>

=))

[lonelywombat]

WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL IN THIS FORUM???????????????????????

[scottish-guy]

No Idea - it's already been "moved" to "Gay World" (I think it actually belongs in Everything Else or maybe even Flaming Room is where Arsenal's trolling belongs) - except what seems to be happening is that it's appearing now in BOTH Gay World and Gay Thailand.

Apologies MFAS.

[Manforallseasons]

Nothing lasts forever except,

[arsenal]

Scottish: I did not describe the SNP as Islamic Jihad, just you.

The Welsh legislative assembly is little more than a glorified town council and I have said all I want to say about Northern Ireland. I am very surprised you didn't addres my suggestion that had you won you wouldn't be calling for another referendum. oh hang on, no I'm not because there's nothing you can say although that won't stop you saying it.

Racist: Really! Well I have traveled all over both Scotland and Wales (not NI) on many occasions and have nothing but wonderful and happy memories of both places and would be delighted to go to either at any future opportunity. So not really racist. Please stop linking any attack on you with an attack on Scotland. You are you and Scotland is a nation, do you understand the difference?

And as for the eating cereal comment. Is that the best you've got. When I look at all the great writers, actors, politicians, sportsmen/women, artists. inventors, scientists, comedians and others who have come out of those Celtic countries I am delighted to be able to call them British (strictly speaking NI is not British but part of the British Isles but you get the idea) and tell anyone who'll listen that they and I come from the same country.

But then the rabid charging bull does not see who has a sword and who has some hay. And that's you. A rabid, blind with rage charging bull.

[scottish-guy]

The thing is, Arsenal - far from being full of rage as you suggest, I'm sitting here laughing and if you keep it up it won't be long till I'm slapping my thighs as well!!! Believe it or not, this issue does not consume my every waking hour! On the plus side, it livens the board up.

To answer your question directly (I wasn't avoiding it, I just forgot about it) - if YES had won, would I have supported a re-run? The honest answer is that I'd have supported it only on the same basis as I would currently support a re-run - and that is there would have to be a very significant change in the circumstances and/or there would have to be a sustained and demonstrable demand from the voters for any re-run irrespective of which side promoted it. Just for the avoidance of doubt - I do NOT support #indyref2 at this point in time - the recent decision has to be respected until its clear that circumstances or the mood of the voters has changed - and currently not enough of either has changed.

What would constitute a very significant change in circumstances you'll no doubt ask - well I've already outlined one scenario:

During #indyref the voters were told that Scotland would be expelled from the EU if YES won (which was a lie, but never mind), so the only way to ENSURE staying in the EU was to vote NO. This undoubtedly influenced the result (to what extent we don't know, but nobody denies it was a significant issue). If it then transpires that Scotland votes REMAIN in the 2016/17 EU Referendum yet is dragged out against her will by English votes, then that would be a very significant change and the SNP and Greens (at least) would almost certainly be under pressure have #indyref2 in their 2020 manifestoes. It's not just me saying that - the last time I heard it conceded was only about 3 weeks ago by the Labour politician Alan Johnson, who went even further by saying "...and they'd win next time"
A different example of "significant change" might be if Westminster proposed to curtail the powers of the Scottish Parliament or to abolish it.

What would consitute "sustained and demonstrable" demand? 2 factors - a fresh mandate and sustained favourable polling. The SNP will not propose #indyref2 without putting it in a manifesto which wins an election and it's been made clear there will be no committment to #indyref2 in the 2016 Scottish GE manifesto - so the earliest would be the EU elections due in 2018 but more likely to be the UK GE 2020 or the 2021 Scottish GE. I also believe that unless there had been sustained opinion polling showing YES with a significant and clear lead over many months, it still wouldn't go in the manifesto.

Personally I think BOTH a very significant change in circumstances AND a sustained and demonstrable demand would be required before the SNP would seek a mandate for #indyref2. The SNP will not risk a second defeat.

So, to sum up - had YES won and NO wanted #indyref2, my attitude to it would have been as I have spelled out above. There would have to have been a very significant change and either the Labour Party, the Tories, or the Liberals would have to have put it in their manifestoes and one of those parties elected to Govt with that mandate (I would not accept an aggregate of their votes). In those circumstances Arsenal, whatever you may think of me I'm a democrat, and I would have had to concede the Unionists right to hold #indyref2.

Having said that - no Country had ever become Independent of the UK and asked to be re-admitted and I'll also concede that having left the UK it's unlikely that the UK would want us back unless under very unfavourable conditions.

[Brad the Impala]

But then the rabid charging bull does not see who has a sword and who has some hay. And that's you. A rabid, blind with rage charging bull.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFhqLCLTQ-w

[arsenal]

Scottish: On the issue of the EU and Scotland. I would concede that if Scotland voted to remain in and were dragged out by the English voting no there would be a considerable argument for another referendum.