Alternatives to Western Union

After being highly amused by a recent thread I thought I'd post about my experiences of using money transfer services to Thailand other than Western Union. I've used three this year - Skrill (https://www.skrill.com/en/), PayPal (https://www.payal.com) and the newer kid on the block TransferWise (https://transferwise.com/)

From a security perspective Skrill and Paypal work the same way - you give them access to your bank account via their App. TransferWise has a "cut out" - you have to send them the money from your bank account after you've placed the order online with them. I maintain a bank account in Thailand to which I have Internet banking access so I can see exactly what's going on

My observations (and I stress they're mine, take it or leave it):
Skrill: this worked quite well, you can nominate your base currency and if you stick with that you'll be fine except when you're transferring money internationally. My experience was that they convert the money being sent into Euros and then convert those Euros into the destination currency. Very costly

Paypal: With each Paypal account you can have two bank accounts attached by default - your US one (if you have one) and one for the country where you've registered your account. I didn't want to use my US bank account so it means I have two PayPal accounts - one for the UK, the other for Thailand. I simply send myself money from my UK account (withdrawn by PayPal from my UK bank account - same as Western Union) as "Family & Friends" so the transfer fee is minimal. When it reaches my Thailand account (instantaneously) I accept the transfer and convert it into baht. The exchange rate isn't bad - certainly better than if I sent it direct from bank to bank - and the very low fees are an advantage. The downside is that it then takes around 5 working days from the time I withdraw it from my Thai PayPal account until it reaches my Thai bank account. Why? Who knows. I suspect it would give the opportunity for fraudulent transactions to be stopped

TransferWise: This application is brought to you by the same geeks who invented Skype. I requested the money and was told the probable exchange rate at the time. I had 48 hours (I think) to effect the transfer, during which time the exchange rate could change so I was offered the opportunity to "hedge" or insure against that. As I transferred from my bank to TransferWise immediately, I didn't bother. They acknowledged receipt within a few hours (all by email) and gave me a date 48 hours later by when they said the money would be in my Thai bank account. It actually took a few hours longer, but I put that down to the inefficiencies of the Thai banking system and the time differences. And it was exactly the amount they said it would be. Best of all, the exchange rate was as good as I could get by passing cash over the counter at a branch of Super Rich (who have an App you can download to your phone (https://itunes.apple.com/au/app/superrichth/id812291664?mt=8) if you want, giving up the minute rates they're offering against the baht). TransferWise say they're charging an administration fee but for what I was transferring at the time (roughly 10,000 baht) a fee of zero was charged

All three have smartphone Apps. I'd rate the services as follows:
1 TransferWise. Best exchange rate, best transfer time (bank-to-bank); requires more manual intervention
2 PayPal. Second best exchange rate, poor transfer time (bank-to-bank); requires some manual intervention (accepting the payment and withdrawing it to the Thai bank account)
3 Skrill. Lousy exchange rate unless your home currency is Euros; no further comment is necessary

However if you simply can't wait, Western Union with its poor security, high fees and terrible exchange rates is the way to go - take Bucky as your exemplar

I should point out that I use my trusty VPNs (I have several VPN accounts scattered around the world, some hosted by Kommie's Boys) for additional security. I know this will be a huge shock to Surfcrest's IT "guru", cdnmatt, whose complete ignorance of modern-day IT security (http://sawatdeenetwork.com/forum/post301441.html?hilit=VPN#p301441) and how the banks view it still causes amusement. However I'm sure he's a great help to Surfcrest ... somehow

For those who are interested, the emerging security especially for banking transactions is the subject of a leading article (http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21677198-technology-behind-bitcoin-could-transform-how-economy-works-trust-machine) in this week's Economist

[cdnmatt]

Probably the wrong crowd for this, but another excellent money transfer service is Bitcoin. No fees to receive funds, no limitations / restrictions, no ID required, no account to open, no KYC/AML hoops to jump through, and a simple ~$0.03 fee to send an unlimited amount instantaneously anywhere in the world.

If you know what you're doing, it's also extremely secure. If you don't know what you're doing, chance you'll get your money stolen, so be careful.

Plus you don't have to worry about things like PayPal freezing your funds for 180 days while giving no reason to do so, and offering no appeal process. You also don't have to worry about the nightmare of trying to contact and deal with PayPal customer support.

Probably the wrong crowd for this, but another excellent money transfer service is Bitcoin.
Perhaps you could do the same as me, and describe the step-by-step process of transferring money from another country to Thailand using Bitcoin from - you know - personal experience?

[Rene]

Probably the wrong crowd for this, but another excellent money transfer service is Bitcoin.
Perhaps you could do the same as me, and describe the step-by-step process of transferring money from another country to Thailand using Bitcoin from - you know - personal experience?

I would also like a step by step description of how to use Bitcoin in a secure fashion. TIA

[cdnmatt]

Well, I get paid in bitcoin, so for me it's a little easier as I don't have that extra step of transferring USD / GBP into bitcoin first. Instead, I got straight from BTC -> THB. Anyway, to get setup you would:

1.) Figure out how to store your bitcoin. Not going to get into details, as it's out of the scope of this forum. Tons of options available though, however I would highly discourage use of an online web wallet (eg. http://blockchain.info/), and instead download and install your own wallet such as http://electrum.org/ or even Bitcoin Core (http://bitcoin.org/en/download)

2.) Buy some bitcoins. Just Google "bitcoin exchange my_country_name" to see what's available to you. If it's just a smaller transaction of say $3000 or less, just head to http://localbitcoins.com/ and you can easily buy there.

3.) Once in Thailand, sell your bitcoin. Again, http://localbitcoins.com/ works great for this. If you're in a popular area like Bangkok, Pattaya or Chiang Mai, there will be someone local willing to buy. You can meet together to do a cash transaction, they can put the money in your bank account, or however you want to be paid.

For example, when a client from Europe or the US pays an invoice, I can have cash in hand within an hour. No fees from the network itself, although I do get dinged about 1 - 3% upon selling, all depending who I find to sell to.

If you're just sending your boy special a few hundred dollars here and there, bitcoin would be probably far better than Western Union or anything else. Basically no fees, no ID, no forms to fill out, instantaneous, etc. Plus you can just send it from your computer / cell phone, instead of having to go into town to Western Union, fill out a form, provide ID, etc. Instead, you can just instantly fire it off to your boy special, and assuming he's in somewhere like Bangkok or Pattaya, he could turn around and sell it within an hour.

Plus there's zero chance of it being blocked for fraud, or money laundering, or whatever. It's a decentralized P2P system, so there's no governance or regulation in place, and it's designed in a way to make it impossible to do so. If you go through an actual exchange, most are registered with the governments as money exchange services, hence will require KYC/AML info. However, by no means do you need to go through an exchange. Again, http://localbitcoins.com/ works great, or you can find other personal connections to buy / sell with, etc.

EDIT: If anyone has any specific questions, feel free to ask here or in PM. I've been developing software for the bitcoin industry for 2.5 years now, so I know the protocol inside and out.

[Smiles]

BITCOIN.
You must be out of your mind. Unless you were mighty lucky you'd have lost a small fortune [or perhaps a big one, depending how gullible you were] owning bitcoin during ALL times on either side of July 10/2013 and November 30/2013 [i.e. a total of 5 months]
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from= ... D&view=10Y (http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XBT&to=USD&view=10Y)

I don't profess to know too much about the mechanics of using Bitcoins. I doubt that many do.
But the whole concept screams 'fad' to be, and that's being polite. I could also use the word 'scam' [Bitcoin has already gone through one very nasty episode which could easily be characterised as such].
Count me out of this scheme.

[Nirish guy]

If I recall correctly was one of our own esteemed board members not high up and tied up in the whole Bitcoin end of things and if Bitch boy Neal ( God rest his soul) was to believed they had a string of dodgy dealings going on in that whole arena.

I know Neal actuallyed publish some documents he claimed to have found about court actions etc that he had claimed to have found which could have been genuine or not, I have no idea, but as far as I know the person he was accusing didnt ever comment or deny the facts of that "expose" either way as far as I can recall, but of course knowing our dearly departed who one could never trust as far as you could throw him who knows whether that was true or not.

So, as I seemed to recall that Neals claims all centred round the member and massive Bitcoin fraud perhaps if they're reading this ( as I'm sure you know who they are. :-) perhaps they'd like to comment now and tell us THEIR thoughts on Newils at the time hugely libellous claims ( God Neal so loved that word :-( and / or their thoughts on the overall safety and security of the Bitcoin industry in general perhaps ?

[Nirish guy]

Apologies for the numerous typos above, it seems typing replies on a phone, whilst in bed with a hot asian guy lying next to me saying hurry up and get off the phone AND with a massive halloween party hangover isn't the best idea perhaps - mind you some might say they can't see much difference from my normals posts probably anyway - and they wouldn't be too far wrong of course :-)

[scottish-guy]

If any SGT member needs to experiment with transferring extremely high value sums of money to a third party, I'm willing to receive the funds and report back (eventually)

:x

[gaymandenmark]

Why not just use bank to bank transfer? For me it is the easiest and cheapest way.

But the whole concept screams 'fad' to be, and that's being polite.
I think it's got beyond "fad" and is becoming more mainstream. However it's still the "currency" of choice for blackmailers, drug dealers and child pornographers on the Internet. I say "currency" but it's really just a digital commodity, the equivalent to gold but online. That's why its price fluctuates, just like any other commodity. What cdnmatt describes is exactly the process someone would undertake to transfer money to Thailand by buying gold in their own country, sending it to Thailand and having someone exchange the gold for baht. It's like Skrill (by using an intermediary "currency") - Skrill uses Euros, cdnmatt uses bitcoins. Unfortunately for your average Thai boy, the bitcoins process is infinitely more cumbersome. That cdnmatt thinks it a possibility shows his slim grasp of reality

Why not just use bank to bank transfer? For me it is the easiest and cheapest way.
"A fool and his money" Part 2

[cdnmatt]

But the whole concept screams 'fad' to be

See, knew this was the wrong crowd. :) Older folks are generally more wary of new technology, which is understandable. Bitcoin has been going for over 6 years, market cap of $4.8 billion USD, 100s of millions of VC investments, plus many livelihoods currently rely on it, mine included. I think we're out of fad territory. :)


I could also use the word 'scam'

No, not really. Calling Bitcoin a scam is the equivalent of calling cash a scam, or saying e-mail is extremely dangerous, filled with hackers and scammers, and should be avoided at all costs because some people send viruses through it.


So, as I seemed to recall that Neals claims all centred round the member and massive Bitcoin fraud perhaps if they're reading this ( as I'm sure you know who they are. :-) perhaps they'd like to comment now and tell us THEIR thoughts on Newils at the time hugely libellous claims ( God Neal so loved that word :-( and / or their thoughts on the overall safety and security of the Bitcoin industry in general perhaps ?

Really? Where was I when this was going on? Aside from myself, I don't think I've ever heard anyone mention Bitcoin on this board, so are you referring to me? If so, then no clue what the claims were, but no, I've never done anything nefarious in the bitcoin space. I'm on the good side. I'm the guy who protects people's funds.

Reason I'm in bitcoin is because I can charge triple what I can as a general purpose software developer. Plus I like the concept as well. I've had PayPal freeze my funds for 180 days before, and had Moneris terminate my merchant account without warning due to a 1.2% chargeback rate, I've had banks put holds on my funds before, etc. When things like that happen it can hurt, and leave you a bit high & dry. With bitcoin, that type of thing is impossible. Nobody has any say over my money, or ability to transact, except myself, which is how it should be.

As for general security, bitcoin in and of itself is extremely secure, and there's some amazing minds that work on the core dev team. The problem is the implementations that get built on top of the protocol can sometimes be quite shabby. Years ago many of the systems were ridiculously insecure, especially considering how much money they were handling.

Remember back when almost every week you'd hear a news story about 10s of millions worth being stolen by hackers? Those news stories seem to have disappeared, right? Things have advanced, and they're much better now, but there's still some pretty shotty services / implementations out there, so be careful.

For your own funds, the only rule you really have to remember is never allow your private keys to be stored online, hence why I discourage web wallets like https://blockchain.info/ and all the others. Use a HD BIP32 wallet (ie. Electrum), keep your private keys off the internet, and the likelihood you'll ever have funds stolen is nearly zero. In 2.5 years, I've never had a single dollar stolen.

EDIT: If you guys want a quick tip, you can expect the price to jump a fair bit starting mid-2016, which is when miner's rewards will be halved. Right now, block rewards are 25 BTC, meaning ~6750 new bitcoin are being generated daily. Come mid 2016, that's going to be halved to ~3375 BTC/day, so newly generated supply will shrink, and assuming demand stays the same, stands to reason the price is going to increase a fair bit. Well, either the price increases or bitcoin goes the way of the dinosaurs, because miners won't be able to afford to run the network anymore, and will shut shop.

[Smiles]

Sorry, but there is nothing in your response which impresses, or changes my mind.
Let's wait five years [I'll still be here] and you can give a new report - on this board - on how healthy the World O' Bitcoin is.
I suspect this will not end well.

On the other hand, when it comes to market investing I've been left licking dirt before, and have probably a few licks left in the years ahead. I have one stock in my portfolio which shows a graph eerily similar to the Bitcoin bummer shown in my post above.

Your condescending 'Old Folks' reference is just plain whippersnappily stupid.

[christianpfc]

I have used transferwise twice so far and am happy with their service (post comparing withdrawal at ATM, exchanging cash and transferwise in preparation). There are similar services, but I haven't used them, so I can't compare.

I blacklisted paypal because ebay tried to force it into the market as payment method (more expensive and slower and bank transfer in Germany), and while not personally experiencing any difficulties the few times I was forced to use paypal, I have read horror stories on the web.

I know about bitcoin, but not enough to consider using it for monetary transactions.

Never used standard bank transfer (obscene fees and poor exchange rates) or Western Union.

[francois]

But the whole concept screams 'fad' to be

Really? Where was I when this was going on? Aside from myself, I don't think I've ever heard anyone mention Bitcoin on this board, so are you referring to me? If so, then no clue what the claims were, but no, I've never done anything nefarious in the bitcoin space. I'm on the good side. I'm the guy who protects people's funds.
.

Yes, where were you? There was quite an expose posted by Neal regarding a bitcoin scam supposedly involving a poster on this forum. No, it was not you matt.

Sorry, but there is nothing in your response which impresses, or changes my mind.
Let's wait five years [I'll still be here] and you can give a new report - on this board - on how healthy the World O' Bitcoin is.
I suspect this will not end well.

On the other hand, when it comes to market investing I've been left licking dirt before, and have probably a few licks left in the years ahead. I have one stock in my portfolio which shows a graph eerily similar to the Bitcoin bummer shown in my post above.

Your condescending 'Old Folks' reference is just plain whippersnappily stupid.
Perhaps you're thinking of this sort of thing, Smiles - http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-crime/

[Smiles]

Perhaps you're thinking of this sort of thing, Smiles - http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-crime/
No, I wasn't. But now that you've posted that link, just more manure for the pile. Thanks.

Just as an example: surely to fucking christ no one in their right mind would have anything to do with Bitcoins with the kind of obtuse and unexplainable language used in this eyeball rolling critique of Bitcoin (one of dozens).


The bitcoins accrued тАУ known ransom demands range from the hundreds to thousands of dollars, according to the report тАУ are then washed through multiple addresses and known bitcoin services, though none are named directly in the report. Some of the funds are essentially reinvested in new exploit kits or rent payments for botnets.

Revenue-wise, the reportтАЩs authors note that, for its backers, CryptoWall "is extremely successful and continues to provide significant income".

"One variant alone involved with the 'crypt100' campaign identifier resulted in over 15,000 victims across the globe," the report states. "These 15,000 victims alone would account for, at minimum, roughly $5m in profit for the CW3 group.

obtuse and unexplainable language used in this eyeball rolling critique of Bitcoin ...

The bitcoins accrued тАУ known ransom demands range from the hundreds to thousands of dollars, according to the report тАУ are then washed through multiple addresses and known bitcoin services, though none are named directly in the report. Some of the funds are essentially reinvested in new exploit kits or rent payments for botnets.

Revenue-wise, the reportтАЩs authors note that, for its backers, CryptoWall "is extremely successful and continues to provide significant income".

"One variant alone involved with the 'crypt100' campaign identifier resulted in over 15,000 victims across the globe," the report states. "These 15,000 victims alone would account for, at minimum, roughly $5m in profit for the CW3 group.
I'm gob-snacked that you find the language in that piece "obtuse and unexplainable". It's crystal clear to me. And it reinforces the point I made in an earlier post - bitcoin is the currency of choice for blackmailers, drug dealers and child pornographers. One thing you can say for criminal enterprises - they will make sure they don't lose their own money. Bitcoin (or is emulators) is here to stay.

Here you go Smiles - sink your teeth into this - http://www.marketwatch.com/story/is-bit ... 2015-11-02 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/is-bitcoin-a-better-investment-than-gold-2015-11-02)

[Smiles]

Here you go Smiles - sink your teeth into this - http://www.marketwatch.com/story/is-bit ... 2015-11-02 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/is-bitcoin-a-better-investment-than-gold-2015-11-02)
I don't like gold either. I'll never be a 'REAL' Thai. B-)
I like rice though. :-*

[bucknaway]

I'm not linking anything to my checking account directly. With a credit card I'm protected by laws that's a I'm only liable up to $50. With a direct bank account withdraw I'm liable and if defrauded I am at the mercy of the banks mood it could be forced to pay over withdrawal fees related to the fraud.

[cdnmatt]

http://bitcoinity.org/markets

Up 17% in the past 24 hours. WTF is going on? This isn't normal. I've heard rumors institutional investors have recently got on board, so maybe that's it? A jump like this hasn't happened in ages.

Damn, I was hoping it'd continue to stay quite low for another good bit, while I continue to save up my BTC. I have no problem seeing it at $2000+ in the future, so I'm long-term on it. Invoice in USD, get paid in BTC, so lower it is, the more BTC I get.

[Nirish guy]

Matt, just in case you missed it I PM'd you re this topic.

[Old git]

I have a Thai bank account and make a large transfer before I travel using SAT Worldwide. I then use ATMs to draw cash out as needed.

This seems to be the most efficient way to get your hard-earned into Thai Baht - any better ideas?

[mahjongguy]

I've been confused about this thread from the beginning. What was meant to be the original topic?

For transferring money to your own account in Thailand, Western Union has always been a terrible choice, worse than buying baht at your local bank and mailing them to Thailand in an envelope marked "CASH".

Western Union is for sending money to "friends" here who don't have a bank account. It works but can be awkward and the cost is absurd.

I've been confused about this thread from the beginning. What was meant to be the original topic?

For transferring money to your own account in Thailand, Western Union has always been a terrible choice, worse than buying baht at your local bank and mailing them to Thailand in an envelope marked "CASH".

Western Union is for sending money to "friends" here who don't have a bank account. It works but can be awkward and the cost is absurd.
It was spawned by Bucky's thread trying to blame Panthip Plaza for being a dickhead and having his Western Union account scammed

[cdnmatt]

That cdnmatt thinks it a possibility shows his slim grasp of reality

So you're saying I should invest in getting some Bitcoin ATMs setup in the likes of Pattaya and Bangkok? Hookers in the Western world are using them in droves.

Could be some decent profit there. Cheaper and easier than Western Union for the farang punters sending money to their newly found love, and Thais could easily get cash out of the ATM.

[Old git]

So you're saying I should invest in getting some Bitcoin ATMs setup in the likes of Pattaya and Bangkok? Hookers in the Western world are using them in droves.

Could be some decent profit there. Cheaper and easier than Western Union for the farang punters sending money to their newly found love, and Thais could easily get cash out of the ATM.

Bitcoin seems to be the darling of diehard anti-establishment, anti-capitalism types, who then confuse the issue by gloating over how much money they've made from it (whilst keeping schtum about what they've lost..)

As a currency though it can't be taken seriously until it's buying power - be it bowls of rice or boys for the night - achieves some semblance of stability.

My biggest issue with it is that without the backing of any government willing to defend it, or the absolute certainty that someone won't figure out how to create unlimited quantities of it, it's value could so very easily evaporate overnight..

I've been confused about this thread from the beginning. What was meant to be the original topic?
After being highly amused by a recent thread I thought I'd post about my experiences of using money transfer services to Thailand other than Western Union.The first line in the first post in this thread

That cdnmatt thinks it a possibility shows his slim grasp of realitySo you're saying I should invest in getting some Bitcoin ATMs setup in the likes of Pattaya and Bangkok?I doubt that you have the ability to organise yourself out of a wet paper bag, frankly, let alone "invest" in Bitcoin ATMs anywhere in Thailand. That your average barboy has even heard of Bitcoin let alone capable of handling both the digital and physical aspects of the transaction is, however, the "slim grasp of reality" to which I was alluding.
Hookers in the Western world are using them in droves.For someone who usually expresses contempt for those who pay you claim to be remarkably knowledgeable about the hookers of the Western world. As someone who uses hookers extensively all over the world I can state without hesitation that I've never been asked for anything except cold, hard cash.
Cheaper and easier than Western Union for the farang punters sending money to their newly found love.Since Smiles is a pretty good weathervane for what farang punters of a certain age are capable of, and has already expressed his negative opinion, this comment too is another example of your "slim grasp of reality". Me, I'm still waiting to see bucknaway mincing by in The Look, jangling his few bitcoins (worth less than $20 apparently) in his pocket. Given your avarice I'm surprised you haven't offered him $20 to take them off his hands =))

[Smiles]

Matt, just in case you missed it I PM'd you re this topic.
Uh oh ... the smell of another Bitcoin Believer wanting to discuss the whole thing with another True Believer, totally in private.
A Conspiracy Believer loves company.

Lots of 'believers' in this Nonsense Land.

(Perhaps I'll turn out wrong on this. In which case, enjoy your capital gains. $2000 per Bit is Cndmatt's bet. Let's talk 5 years from now).

[Nirish guy]

Well you're certainly wrong about "another believer" and "wanting to discuss the whole thing in private" - I was merely telling Matt that as per his post earlier "no, it wasn't him I was alluding to" ( if you must know - away and take a few paranoia pills there and lie down in a darkened room for a while and I'm sure you'll be fine again shortly.

[cdnmatt]

A Conspiracy Believer loves company.

haha, so bitcoin is a conspiracy now? Smiles, W3C just green lit bitcoin to become part of its new stanardization of online payment protocols. If you don't already know, W3C is the defacto in internet standards, and they basically dictate how every aspect of the internet works. From DNS lookups, to formatting / sending e-mail messages, HTTP requests, FTP, CSS, Javascript, and so on... What they dictate, everyone follows, from Google to Apple, to small guys like me and everyone else.

Now that they've said they're including bitcoin in their payment protocols standards, that's a massive step forward. Think you might be a little behind the times on this one. Again, wrong crowd for this type of discussion. Sure, like you said, give it 5 years and we'll see where we are. :)

[Smiles]

' ... If you don't already know, W3C is the defacto in internet standards, and they basically dictate how every aspect of the internet works. From DNS lookups, to formatting / sending e-mail messages, HTTP requests, FTP, CSS, Javascript, and so on... What they dictate, everyone follows, from Google to Apple, to small guys like me and everyone else ... '
WHAT, WHAT, WHAT.

You got me on that, I must say. [Not at all sure what you got me on, but ... ]
I'll have to ask LonelyWombat to decipher it for me.

Here you go, Smiles, something to feed your concerns http://www.ibtimes.com/bitcoin-rally-di ... zi-2169480 (http://www.ibtimes.com/bitcoin-rally-digital-currencys-surge-driven-china-speculators-blockchain-ponzi-2169480)

Bitcoin is merely one of the emerging ways of transacting which rely on Blockchain which will revolutionise aspects of banking. However its value to the ordinary punter (ie. those of us who don't deal drugs or kiddy porn) is probably limited for the time being

Hold the front page! The head of investment bank JPMorgan agrees with Smiles http://fortune.com/2015/11/04/jamie-dim ... y-bitcoin/ (http://fortune.com/2015/11/04/jamie-dimon-virtual-currency-bitcoin/)

[cdnmatt]

That's like asking the CEO of Western Union what he thinks about bitcoin. Of course he's not going to like it, because it threatens their business model.

Then he says the governments won't allow it, which doesn't make sense, because regulation is impossible. You can't regulate a bunch of hashes being passed around the internet. Again, it's already stood the test of time, and is here to stay.

You can't regulate a bunch of hashes being passed around the internet.Does Bucky know that? He has "a few" bitcoins that he jiggles with in his pocket as he walks around in The Look.

[bucknaway]

Did someone mention my name?
(Now I know how Bing Crosby felt when he did a cameo in a Bob Hope film.

(Takes a bow and leaves thread)

http://andolfatto.blogspot.com/2015/11/ ... nking.html (http://andolfatto.blogspot.com/2015/11/bitcoin-and-central-banking.html)

There you are, Smiles - because you know I care

[bruce_nyc]

:-o

I just discovered this thread. I'm almost speechless.... I never thought in a million years that I'd hear this topic discussed here... Yea, this is probably the wrong crowd to discuss anything as "futuristic" as.... cellular phones.... laptops... internet.... etc... LOL It's like hearing your great *great* grandparents (who used crank and rotary phones) debating about which is the best smartphone.... the iPhone6sтАО or the Note5.... Kinda like hearing horses talk. ha ha I've heard that some people say that that "internet thing" is really going to become popular one day. ;)

Bitcoin is money. It's electronic cash. And it's also its own currency. There is no safer money in the world. There's also no safer and easier and cheaper way to transmit money in the world -- no matter whether you are sending $6 to your friend you're having lunch with... or sending $60 million half way around the planet. It's as fast and easy as sending a text message.

Remember the first time you ever heard of Facebook....? And you thought, "That sounds so silly. Who would ever want that? It'll never catch on." Then... a couple years later, it was as if it had been there since the beginning of time. From the oldest to the youngest people, all over the world, everyone suddenly knew about Facebook. Well, the same thing is happening with Bitcoin now. Bitcoin is definitely the future of money.

By the way, the truth is... *cash* is the currency of choice for drug dealers and crime..... not bitcoin. Just because *cash* is used for crime more than any other form of money... Does that mean you should avoid using cash...? No. That's very flawed logic, and just silly.

Also, when you hear about bitcoin heists.... they are talking about the *theft* of bitcoin. Yes, obviously, since bitcoin is essentially "electronic cash"... It's untraceable. So.... just like cash... or gold bars.... It's bound to be a target of robbery. Now, logically, if the bank that holds your money or gold.... steals it from you... You don't blame the *money*. You don't blame the *gold*. You blame the bank. Or..... Blame yourself for being so irresponsible to have not checked out the bank to know if they were trustworthy or not. Or..... Blame yourself for trusting any bank at all.

It is for these reasons that new software has been created which are the most advanced sophisticated security systems ever invented. Bitcoin software is setting the standard for cutting edge security systems of the future.

Also... Bitcoin isn't really new any more. It's tried and true and becoming more adopted every day. The Pattaya Beer Garden accepts bitcoin. The 5 star gay-owned restaurant called, Eat Me, in Bangkok... accepts bitcoin. Several gay sex massage shops in Bangkok accept bitcoin.... including Ban Tewa, and The Prince. There's already at least one bitcoin ATM in Bangkok. It's spreading fast. See http://coinmap.org

Another important point is: If you're using bitcoin to send money from one place to another.... Or if you're using bitcoin and spending it.... You don't need to worry about the changing value. Just (1) Buy the Bitcoin, (2) Send or Spend the Bitcoin, and (3) Sell the Bitcoin. If you do all of these things within one day.... or a few days... the value won't likely change.... so you don't have to worry about that. If you're curious, you can always check the value here: http://preev.com/btc/thb/source:bitfinex

Bitcoin transactions are free. ( Well, technically, the suggested optional "donation for processing the transaction" is approximately $0.03 no matter whether you are sending $1 or $100,000,000 dollars. )

It's crazy easy to get into Bitcoin.... and to use it. All you have to do is install one free app on your phone. It's called Airbitz. It is the best bitcoin wallet by far. I don't recommend any others. I can elaborate on all the reasons, if anyone is interested. You can install it from here: https://airbitz.co/bitcoin-wallet/

For anyone who would like to play with it.... or to learn more about it.... or just for fun.... let me know. Any member of this forum who asks me to, and who installs the Airbitz app... will send them $20 via bitcoin.

You can go buy yourself some lunch or dinner or beers or whatever at Pattaya Beer Garden using your bitcoin. Just bring your phone with you. ..... or a massage at Ban Tewa massage spa.... or dinner at Eat Me restaurant.

[bruce_nyc]

I forgot to mention why businesses love to accept bitcoin.

The transaction fees are practically zero. ( As I said, it's an "optional donation" of about US$0.03 to instantly send a transaction whether it's for $1 or $100,000,000 or more. )

There's no 3% or 4% bank credit card extortion fees. And before you say, "But I don't pay those. The merchant does." Give it a rest. Where do the merchants get that money? They raise their prices. And YOU pay it. Wake up. Every merchant owner can tell you that what I'm saying is true. It's just like if the mafia were extorting a 5% cut out of every business in town. YOU would be the one paying it.

The other major benefit for businesses is... Transactions are absolutely irreversible. There is no such thing as a "charge back". A charge back is when the bank reverses the transaction, effectively *stealing* the money back away from the merchant. You can think of it as basically the same thing as shoplifting. And believe me, whether they even realize it or not, those charge backs typically cost a business another 9-12% of their revenue.

Bitcoin has no charge backs. It's absolutely impossible to do one. For businesses, this is huge. This means a total of about 12% or 13% more profit for them... when you eliminate their costs for credit card fees *and* lost revenue from charge backs. Not to mention... saving them countess labor hours of having to deal with the paperwork of trying to constantly be fighting those charge backs.

For customers, it just needs to be thought of as, "the same as cash". This means... You must try to always deal with reputable firms. ( Or use an escrow service if needed for very large purchases. ) The same as you would if you were using cash.

Businesses can still issue a full refund, of course. It just can't be forced or extorted out of them in the fraudulent manner that most charge backs happen.

With bitcoin, if you send $300 to a hotel for booking a room.... ( via the app on your phone while you're riding in a taxi in the UK... and the hotel is in Pattaya..... It's just the same as if you dropped off $300 in cash at the front desk of that hotel. You're not going to ever get that money back.... unless the hotel sends a new transaction to refund it. Same as with cash.

Businesses and all sorts of People love cash.
Businesses and all sorts of People love bitcoin.

By the way, businesses who are concerned about the changing value of bitcoin can "cash out" by converting their bitcoin into Dollars or Euros or Thai Baht or whatever their local fiat currency is...... instantly with the click of a button. For example, There are three major Bitcoin <--> Thai Baht exchange companies in Bangkok alone. They are very reputable and excellent. They serve the entire country of Thailand via their web sites and by Thai bank account transfers... or the Thai ATM networks. For example, I can send them $1 or $100,000 or whatever amount.... in bitcoin.... and instantly ( within about 60 minutes ), the money will either be in my Thai bank account as Thai Baht... or available for anonymous pickup at any ATM in Thailand. So using the "cardless transaction" button and a special code number the site gives you... you can withdraw the bitcoin --- now as thai baht --- anonymously... without any ATM card..... from any ATM anywhere in Thailand. I think their fee the company charges is 30 or 35 baht. By the way, you can buy *or* sell.... get bitcoin for baht ( or get baht for bitcoin ) with any of these companies. Also, there are tons of bitcoin exchanges ( as such companies are called ) in nearly every country in the world.... especially in the US, UK, EU, and all the Asian countries too. The largest one in the world is now a company based in Hong Kong called Bitfinex.

Welcome to the 21st century.

The company in Bangkok I recommend most is: http://coins.co.th
Another great one is: http://bx.in.th

But yeah..... If you're paying a total of more than about 30 baht TOTAL.... to send money to/from any two points on this planet.... You're getting ripped off big time. Western Union fees are typically in the 9% - 10% range. ( Famously, the poorer the country, the more they extort. So in Africa, for example, Western Union fees average about 12%. Yeah. The banksters are evil criminal thieves. But you already knew that. :) )

Feel free to ask me any questions about any of this.... here or by PM.

I can also happily change just about any amount of cash you'd need to change into or out of bitcoin at any time.... between thai baht, us $, euros, or whatever. Zero fees. Just cause I'm a nice guy. :) ( and because I can touch one button to use coins.co.th faster than ordering a starbucks )

If anyone would like to get their business set up to accept bitcoin, no matter what type of business it is, I can also do that for you free too. It takes about 5 minutes to talk you through getting that all set up and working. You don't need any banking or applications or forms. It's a simple free app. ( I've also seen many money boys advertising that they accept bitcoin.... as well as many sex massage shops. )

My offer stands that.... I'll send $20 to anyone who asks me to. Just install this free app and let me know... http://airbitz.co

[cdnmatt]

Quick word of caution as to what bruce says. To each their own, but personally, I would never trust a web wallet with my funds like bruce is recommending. Sure, use them to exchange to/from bitcoin, but I would never actually leave funds there.

I also don't like client-side signing, to the point I refuse to implement it for my clients. I know it's touted as some awesome security measure, but that's a little misleading. The reasoning for it is because site owners kept running off with everyone's money, so the community came up with client-side signing which prevents that. However, it also passes the security aspect to the end-user. All it takes is opening one wrong e-mail or visiting one wrong site, and your funds will be gone shortly.

Again, I can recommend https://electrum.org/ (no, I didn't develop that one -- I do more commercial software).

[bruce_nyc]

Sorry, Matt. I disagree with much of what you just said. There's a lot of confusion and misunderstanding.

First, I agree. Never trust or use a web wallet. I strongly recommend *against* using any type of web wallet. I never recommend a web wallet under any circumstances.

The wallet I recommend is a phone/tablet app called Airbitz ( http://airbitz.co). In short, it is light years ahead of Electrum, Mycelium, Blockchain-dot-info, or any of the others. ( The lead developers of all four of these wallets are friends of mine, by the way. We chat in specialized forums every day. ) Anyway, the security of Airbitz truly is phenomenal. It's so far advanced that it has left all the others in the dust. Truly, please don't try to discuss it until you've researched it enough to understand how Airbitz security works... and why it is light years ahead of anything else. I'd be happy to supply you with lots of great material to read and videos to watch that are specifically about Airbitz technology, what it does, and how it works. WARNING though: This topic will become extremely technical very quickly.

I have no idea what you mean by "client side signing". I've never heard that term used. All transaction signing must be client-side, by definition. Otherwise, you are using a web wallet.

Perhaps you meant, "multi-signature transactions". That *is* something that has been touted as some great security feature. But I disagree with it. ( For those who don't know, the analogy is..... it's like having a checking account where each check requires two or more signatures. ) I disagree with it being touted as a general security feature because --- although it's true that the "banker" can't run away with your money. It's also true that the "banker" *can* prevent you from accessing your money. Screw that! Anyway, this is all applicable only to web site wallets anyway. And, as I said, I strongly recommend that nobody use a web wallet.

Airbitz is not a web wallet.
Nobody, including the publisher of the Airbitz app, gets any information whatsoever.
No name or information about you is ever asked for, nor needed to create a wallet.
When a wallet is created, you select a username and a password.
Even your username and password are never sent to Airbitz.
The app then creates a wallet on your phone.
The wallet is immediately strongly encrypted.
Only an *encrypted* copy of your wallet is sent to a network of distributed p2p servers ( not to Airbitz ).... as an automatic automated backup.
Again, it's strongly encrypted first, so nobody ever has access to it.... ever ever.
And they are not Airbitz servers. They are a huge network of independent decentralized distributed p2p servers.... for a backup. It's impossible that they could all go down. They don't have the same owners and they're located all over the globe.
If Airbitz company disappeared, and all of Airbitz servers disappeared, your Airbitz Wallet would work exactly as it does now. In fact, users would never notice Airbitz company was gone.
Airbitz servers are not used by Airbitz app for any wallet functionality.
( This can *not* be said of *any* of the other wallets, by the way. )
You can, at any time, install Airbitz on other phones or tablets. You can even "log in" with the same username and password and access the same wallet.
How is this magic possible?
A hash is created of your username and password you entered. An encrypted copy of it is sent to request that your wallet be "restored" to the device your now using. That encrypted copy of it is summoned and brought in to your device. And your username and password are used ( only locally ) to unencrypt your wallet. Now, for example, you have full access to your wallet on *all three* your Samsung Note5, your old iPhone, and your new iPad.
Meanwhile, this all happens instantly and magically. All you did was enter your username and password.
In fact, Airbitz *invented* "One Touch 2FA" technology. ( one touch 2 factor authentication)

I assure you that every possible attack vector or loss scenario has been thought through and analyzed extremely intensely and addressed. There is nothing connected to the Internet that is safer. Your wallet, private keys, transaction history, everything is always encrypted and never leaves your phone unencrypted.

The app even protects the users from themselves.... in a hundred ways.

You can create a wallet. Receive some money. And then have your phone stolen. All within minutes. And you won't have lost a penny. ( except the cost of your stolen phone itself, naturally )

[cdnmatt]

I just went to install AirBitz on my tablet, and it wanted access to -- Identity, Contacts, Location, Photo/Media/Files, Camera, Bluetooth connection information.

Another turn off. Why would it possibly need access to my photos, location, and identity? heh, get real. You might want to ask your friends to change that, considering on their site they preach about privacy and security so much. I can understand the camera to send to a QR code, but that should be about it. They don't need access to anything else for a bitcoin wallet, unless they're doing data collection, and selling that data to marketing companies, which I'm assuming is where their profits are.

Maybe they mean something different by "client side encryption", but generally that means Javascript based signing of transactions, which mean web wallet. And Javascript based signing is inherently insecure for multiple reasons. I know everyone loves to preach about it, but again, it's misleading. i'll admit, it does prevent site owners from stealing user's funds, which is the entire reason it became so popular. However, it's not secure, and again, to the point I refuse to implement it upon client request. All it takes is one client to have funds stolen, they blast me publicly, it ranks high in Google, and I'm fucked for landing new contracts, so I only ever use the best security measures available.

And they're passing private keys around on a P2P network? I don't care if they're encrypted or not, you don't do that. I don't want my private keys floating around on dozens of different servers, even if they are encrypted.

Trust me bruce, unless you happen to be on the core dev team, I can pretty much promise I know the bitcoin protocol better than you.

[bruce_nyc]

I just realized that you might have been referring to the Currency Exchange Companies I recommend.... They are currency exchanges *only*. Use them *only* to exchange currency. Although it is possible to leave money on deposit in your account there...... Matt's correct. DON'T DO THAT. Don't Ever Leave Money on Deposit in a Currency Exchange Site.

They might call it a wallet feature. Or just a balance on deposit. In either case, never keep any money ( be it bitcoin, dollars, baht, or whatever ) on deposit with *any* web site.

Using a currency exchange is fine. But don't leave your money there one minute longer than you need to..... Do your exchanging and take your money out of there.

When you go to the big yellow Krungsri Currency Exchange window at the top of Boyztown.... After you do your currency exchange, you don't leave your money there with the window teller..... You don't ask them to hold onto your money for you. Do you?

Think of bitcoin exchanges the same way. It's a currency exchange. Change your money and get it out of there.

ALWAYS KEEP YOUR BITCOIN SAFELY IN YOUR BITCOIN WALLET
That's Airbitz http://airbitz.co

EXCHANGE YOUR BITCOIN FOR $ тВм ┬г ┬е тВй AND BACK AT A BITCOIN EXCHANGE
That's Coins http://coins.co.th
or BX http://bx.in.th
or contact me and I'll do it for you free
or do a Google search and find the most reputable bitcoin exchange in your country

Ask me if you need help finding a great bitcoin exchange in your country.

Here's one list to start your search: http://www.cryptocoincharts.info/markets/info

In the USA, for example, there are some huge bitcoin exchange services..... like:

Coinbase https://coinbase.com/?r=4ff3c74e3518490 ... erral-link (https://coinbase.com/?r=4ff3c74e3518490003000054&utm_campaign=user-referral&src=referral-link)
( referral link, we both make a little money )

Circle https://www.circle.com/en

But again, buy or sell bitcoin there.... then immediately get your bitcoin and dollars out.... and send them TO your own Airbitz wallet on your phone or tablet.

[cdnmatt]

The more I think about it, the worse of a wallet AirBitz is. I'm assuming they're using HD BIP32 wallets, correct? That's a good thing, but also means all your funds are available with a piece of text like this:


xprv9s21ZrQH143K2JF8RafpqtKiTbsbaxEeUaMnNHsm5o6wCW 3z8ySyH4UxFVSfZ8n7ESu7fgir8imbZKLYVBxFPND1pniTZ81v Kfd45EHKX73

Someone gets that piece of text, and your funds are gone. Granted, that private key can't be brute forced, so as long as you keep it safe, nobody can ever touch your funds. So you're saying they encrypt this private key using the user's password, then fire it off it a P2P network. Has to be two-way encryption, so I'm assuming AES256 or AES512 maybe?

That's a very stupid and dangerous thing to do, and more than likely, many people will have their funds stolen. One of the nodes on that P2P network is going to be an intelligent Russian hacker. They're going to brute-force the keys, and sometimes people do things like use "password" for their password, which means their funds will be gone. Majority of people don't use strong passwords.

[bruce_nyc]

Matt, Matt, Matt.... I've been racking my brain for a few minutes trying to come up with the most polite, respectful, loving way to say this.... And I just don't know any other way to say it...

Your knowledge about bitcoin, the bitcoin network, bitcoin protocol, bitcoin security, and internet security in general ....is *extremely* limited.

I honestly don't mean that to to sound arrogant. I absolutely love helping people learn, I love people asking questions, and helping us all get to the bottom of things and get the correct answers.... But, I do have a problem with people presenting themselves as "experts".... or "I know more than you do"..... when they clearly DO NOT.... and then giving the public bad advice.... or at least, incomplete advice, misleading advice, or contradicting the correct advice. That's when I am forced to speak up.

With all due respect..... Everyone else... Please ignore what Matt is saying.

Matt, I am the creator and organizer of more than 140 IRC-like chat channels. About half of them are dedicated to bitcoin technology. Members of my chat channels include: world renowned cryptography experts, bitcoin network and protocol experts, bitcoin security experts, and internet security experts, as well as.... the founders, the lead devs, and the *entire* dev teams, and even the support teams, of all 4 wallets mentioned above, for example... as well as bitcoin exchange owners, and hundreds of bitcoin startup CEOs... ALL are members. The chat channels are extremely active 24 hours a day. Members are all over the world. Most are also my personal friends.

If you are sincere about wanting to learn about this stuff, I'd be willing to add you to one group. I *guarantee* that you'll learn a *lot*. If on the other hand, you're just too lazy to do a google search and/or are just trolling us... then nevermind.

First, about the app'a permission requirements... Come on. You must know that there are major issues with ALL apps.... in that the *descriptions* of app permissions very often dont match the actual reason why they are needed. This is plaguing the entire smartphone world. I think that very soon Google (Android) and Apple (iPhone) will fix this problem. All they need to do is.... Give all app developers a new field to fill in for the app store, called, "Why we need this permission".

In the meantime, we must either do a google search to find out why, or ask the developers themselves why. Most app publishers have a web page or blog entry specifically to answer that question: "Why does your app need these permissions?"

[cdnmatt]

Your knowledge about bitcoin, the bitcoin network, bitcoin protocol, bitcoin security, and internet security in general ....is *extremely* limited.

You have yet to give any type of technical response, so I'll go under the assumption your knowledge is quite limited. Have you ever written your own wallet software? Your own node software? Have you ever had to deal with Russian hackers on a near hourly basis? I have.

Sorry, but I'm pretty confident I know what I'm talking about.

I've been using bitcoin for about 2.5 years, and never had a dollar stolen. My clients have never had a dollar stolen for about 18 months now. Trust me though, the hackers are ruthless in this market, and extremely skilled. You quite obviously don't know what you're in for, especially considering you actually posted the AirBitz web site URL here, which means it's going to get ranked in Google. I'm sure your friends will appreciate being associated with SGT.

If you don't want to believe me, I really don't care. Ok, I do, because I want to see bitcoin succeed. However, you quite obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about. You're just a marketing machine spitting out punch lines like "most advanced sophisticated security systems ever invented", which is quite obviously totally fucken false. You don't actually understand cryptography, encryption protocols, server security, the bitcoin protocol, or anything of that nature. However, I do.

I'm done with this thread. I have work to do.

[bruce_nyc]

Matt, the only thing that is "stupid and dangerous" are your comments. You make off the wall comments bashing something that you've never bothered to even google.... much less install it.

I wanted to make sure I am being 100% accurate, so I just messaged the lead developer. Here's his reply:

Airbitz App Permissions

Identity - entails some needed details of the device i.e. screen size, etc
Contacts - to load names and photos for optional transaction meta data **
Location - for the merchant directory ( the app has a directory of local bitcoin-accepting businesses everywhere and uses your gps to show them to you )
Photo/Media/Files - for loading photos containing qr codes ( this is an amazingly slick feature )
Camera - for scanning qr codes, obviously
Bluetooth - to send/receive transactions, obviously
NFC - to send/receive transactions, obviously

** ( Optionally, when you send/receive bitcoin to/from a contact of yours, it will autoload your friend's name and photo... to be stored with that transaction. You can select Send, then simply start typing k o m m.... and "John Kommentariat" will autocomplete. If you select him, his full name and photo will appear and be stored in your transaction history ledger along with all the other details of that transaction. You can even select the income or expense categories -- just like Quicken or Quickbooks. ie. "Expenses / Food / Dining Out / Fast Food" .....or..... "Income / Misc Consulting Fees" received FROM "John Kommentariat" )

If you thought it through for a few moments, you should be able to figure these things out yourself. If not, there's always google.com

By the way, I'd like to remind everyone that the Airbitz app is an "open source" app. That means that YOU, and *everyone* on earth, can read and carefully study every line of code of the program. It's totally open and transparent. Even though you might not have the skills to be able to understand the programming code, you can feel assured that thousands, if not millions, of expert programmers all around the world are studying it carefully. They are looking for flaws in it. They are looking for any shady actions it may perform. They would be the first to broadcast loudly if they found anything wrong in it. Nobody has every found any flaws. The code has also been independently audited for security. It passes with flying colors.


Maybe they mean something different by "client side encryption", but generally that means Javascript based signing of transactions, which mean web wallet.

This is a face-palm... ( when I slap my forehead with the palm of my hand... because I can't believe the stupidity of what I've just heard )

There are at least 12 things wrong with this statement. OMG. Where to start? No offense but... You speak random nonsensical jargon words.

First, Javascript is a programming language that is web-based. The code ( program ) gets downloaded into your browser from a web page and runs inside your browser tab. This has about as much to do with bitcoin as "the efficiency of bicycle propulsion in a rain storm in rural China". Use of Javascript is generally a bad idea.... for anything other than the most trivial web page layout and update use cases.

Airbitz is an app. It does not use the web. It does not use a browser at all. And it most certainly does not use Javascript.

Signing of transactions is a cryptographic event. It can *only* happen locally ( or as you call it, "client side" ). There is no other way to do it. Other than not doing it at all... and someone else doing it. ( The classic case of allowing "someone else doing it" for you, is a web wallet.... where you're basically just giving your money to some other guy to hold for you. Then, naturally, *he* will be signing all transactions... not you. )

Again, Airbitz is not a web wallet. Airbitz does NOT even use the web.


And they're passing private keys around on a P2P network? I don't care if they're encrypted or not, you don't do that. I don't want my private keys floating around on dozens of different servers, even if they are encrypted.

OMG. Can I face-palm twice in the same message? Ouch! That hurt! #-o

What do you think Bitcoin is....? The Bitcoin Network *is* exactly that. The Bitcoin Network *itself* "...takes private keys and passes them around on a p2p network." omg. omg.

If you think that's dangerous.... then don't use bitcoin. And certainly don't use banks. And don't use the internet. And... omg Don't use phones. And.... omg. Don't even use electricity.


That means all your funds are available with a piece of text like this:

xprv9s21ZrQH143K2JF8RafpqtKiTbsbaxEeUaMnNHsm5o6wCW 3z8ySyH4UxFVSfZ8n7ESu7fgir8imbZKLYVBxFPND1pniTZ81v Kfd45EHKX73

Someone gets that piece of text, and your funds are gone.

Holy Sh*t. That's another slam in my face with both hands !

You obviously know absolutely *nothing* about Bitcoin..... or even about cryptography.

Sorry. I'm really trying not to get upset. But what you are saying is *total* BS...

Ask your Mom if she can explain to you how private key cryptography works, and how a private key can protect your money. Oh lord.

As for your fears of Airbitz being associated with SGT... That's also nonsense. The founder and CEO is a very close friend. He knows *all* about my life and my gay thailand sexcapades. He'd probably buy ad space on SGT if I asked him to. Again, no offense, but you are soooooo full of it.

People talk so much ignorant shit..... spewing out of their mouths like verbal vomit.... all over everyone.... :ymsick:

Ironically.....

I am always very happy to teach novices about all of this stuff... But please don't act like you "know more than you" when you don't even know the most *basic* bits of it.

Anyone have any questions about Bitcoin? I'm happy to answer....

[bruce_nyc]

The CEO of Airbitz just replied to me. ...even tho I guess it's 1:09AM, his time, in California.

He added this....


Identity includes the users info like phone number and email address. This is only used locally to auto complete phone number fields for registration for things like buy/sell.

The misconception that many people have is that an app's access to device data means that the company has that access too. It doesn't have to be the case. With Airbitz, only the local app accesses that data for your convenience. It never leaves your phone unencrypted.

[cdnmatt]

Ok, this conversation is obviously quite useless. The reason I got defensive is because you're fucking with people's money. Don't do that unless you know what you're doing, which you quite obviously don't. I could write about a 2 page essay on the inaccuracies in your above post, but I'm not going to bother, because you're quite obviously going to go ahead with the AirBitz project anyway.

Have fun with your project.

[cdnmatt]

Ok, I'm bored, so let's give it a crack.

- Yes, Javascript is a client-side programming language (ie. it runs in your browser). Server side programming languages generally include things such as Perl, PHP, Python, etc. Again, when a bitcoin wallet advertises "client side encryption", most people are going to assume that means Javascript based signing. That doesn't appear to be the case here, so that point is moot.

- Yes, you can sign transactions on the server, not just client, assuming the server has access to the private key, even if it's only for a few milliseconds. Yes, there are ways to do this securely.

- The example private key I showed above is exactly all you need to wipe someone's wallet. That's how HD BIP32 wallets work, which I'm assuming they use as it's the standard now (thankfully). Again, this is a good thing. That means you can generate just over 2.1 billion payment addresses with just the public key (starts with "xpub", not "xprv"), hence the private key never has to be online.

- No, private keys are not shared across the P2P network. Only ECC signatures are, which are generated with the private key. The private key itself NEVER touches the P2P network. That would be REALLY fucken stupid, and apparently AirBitz has decided that's a good idea. It's the equivalent of having your credit card number shared across dozens of servers on a P2P network. Even if encrypted, you just don't do that.

- Preaching privacy, then requiring access to basically my entire tablet is a little hypocritical. Sorry, but access to my dick pics aren't required for a bitcoin wallet. Ok, I don't have any dick pics, but if I did, their app doesn't need access to them.

- I'm glad the CEO doesn't mind you're gay. You better hope for your sake this thread doesn't rank highly in Google, because there will be discussions on Reddit and other forums about what I've said if it does. Well, that and the association to a bunch of older guys who like to fuck gay Thai hookers might not be the marketing ploy he was hoping for. heh.

And one final thing.

http://wickedlilpixie.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Someone_Is_Wrong_On_The_Internet-272x300.jpg

haha... ok, I'm going to go have sex again. That sounds a little more fun than sitting here, typing and explaining to you the very basics of bitcoin. If you don't believe anything I've written, feel free to copy & paste it to say bitcointalk.org or anywhere else. Anyone knowledgeable will confirm everything I said is true.

[Old git]

You can argue about the security of Bitcoin's systems till the cows come home. The issue is what is a currency for, and against that backdrop, is Bitcoin a good or bad currency?

A currency is a storage vehicle for wealth, and in general terms, the greater the stability of the buying power of that wealth, the greater the security it affords to the owner. A good currency is therefore one that presents good stability of buying power.

The value of Bitcoin in terms of its buying power has proved deeply unstable to date, and against those fluctuations (speculation aside) it is very hard to argue that it presents a wise means of storing one's wealth.

But then, given its very short life, is there reason to expect that with time it will achieve the stability needed to become a serious global currency?

That will only happen if many countries start to use Bitcoin as their national currency, loosely attaching its value to commodities as they do so. However, countries will only do that when Bitcoin affords sufficient stability of value to make it a realistic alternative to the Greenback - Catch 22..

Bitcoin's lack of attachment to the value of tangible goods is its fundamental design flaw IMO. Whilst the desire to have a currency that is free from political manipulation is attractive, there are other routes that would deliver the desired outcome with far greater inherent stability. For example, a currency based on a kilo of rice for delivery in five years time, might well achieve greater value stability than any major currency.

Bitcoin is not, of necessity, unique. If an alternate stateless currency with greater stability was launched and gained traction, the value of Bitcoin would almost certainly plummet. As the fashionable new kid on the block, Bitcoin has some allure, but can it survive into boring middle age? - I'm doubtful..

[cdnmatt]

You can argue about the security of Bitcoin's systems till the cows come home.

I'm pretty sure security is quite important. People tend to not like getting their money stolen. :) That's the main reason I got so defensive in this thread. Majority of SGT members won't have any knowledge of bitcoin, so when someone like bruce shows up giving shitty advice, I'm going to speak up. Like I said previously in this thread, bitcoin in and of itself is extremely secure, but many of the applications built on top of it are complete garbage.


The value of Bitcoin in terms of its buying power has proved deeply unstable to date, and against those fluctuations (speculation aside) it is very hard to argue that it presents a wise means of storing one's wealth.

Actually, volatility isn't too bad these days. It's been fairly stable for a good year now, but you are right, definitely don't put your life savings into bitcoin. I'm a bit of an oddity, as I invoice in USD, get paid in BTC, and am in it for the long-term as I have no problem seeing the price at $1500+ in the future, so for me flucuations don't matter. For everyone else though, it would definitely be a concern.


That will only happen if many countries start to use Bitcoin as their national currency

Governments aren't ever going to fully endorse bitcoin. It'll continue to gain traction during economic crises such as Cyprus and Greece. People don't like capital controls, and only being allowed to take out 60 Euro/day, and they also don't like massive devaluation of their currency. You can expect those types of crises to continue in the future, and that's what will give bitcoin more traction.


Bitcoin is not, of necessity, unique. If an alternate stateless currency with greater stability was launched and gained traction, the value of Bitcoin would almost certainly plummet.

There's thousands of "alt-coins" already, and basically none have gained any traction whatsoever. If there ever was one that was going to gain traction, it would have been Stellar. It was started in part by Stripe, and had an amazing team of people from places like MIT, Stanford, Yale, CMU, Columbia, etc. Stellar failed miserably, so I'm pretty confident bitcoin is here to stay. It's too large of an industry now for it to just disappear.

[Smiles]

I'm pretty sure security is quite important. People tend to not like getting their money stolen. :) That's the main reason I got so defensive in this thread. Majority of SGT members won't have any knowledge of bitcoin, so when someone like bruce shows up giving shitty advice, I'm going to speak up.
... thus coining a brand new English phrase: 'Bitcoin-Angst'.

But you are quite right ... (1) hardly anyone knows really what Bitcoin is all about. (2) A portion of the population would like to know more I'm sure. (3) A good deal of the population don't give a shit. (4) Another portion think it's a bubbling scam (I'm vaguely in that room). (5) A tiny portion think it's the cats ass and generally the savior of the world and if one gets in the early stages they will ~ absolutely and guaranteed ~ make 20 billion dollars profit "sometime in the future".

I hesitate to get involved with yourself or Bruce mainly because of number 1 and number 4 ... my annoyance with Bruce is that he's a raging right wing lunatic (with Bitcoin being only a part of his delusions). But you are a Canadian, and I forgive you the Bitcoinism, knowing full well that Canadians are never lunatics nor fanatics, on any subject.
,

For me the question of who to believe about Bitcoin and security comes down to weighing up the probabilities. How likely is it that someone who chooses to live in the back-blocks of Thailand, away from the water-coolers of Silicon Valley or Cambridge, a one-man-band programmer who, by his own admission canтАЩt make a living in his own country is more of an expert than a former Fortune 500 CIO with extensive contacts in Silicon Valley but who has proved over and over again in his posts that he inhabits some sort of parallel universe? That is, whose fantasy would you be prepared to buy?

Then thereтАЩs the mystery of who invented Bitcoin and what his motives are. A recent article in Wired magazine (http://www.wired.com/2015/12/bitcoins-creator-satoshi-nakamoto-is-probably-this-unknown-australian-genius/) speculates that itтАЩs a very clever Australian (ie. not a447 or lonelywombat) whoтАЩs of the libertarian persuasion politically.


an almost obsessive autodidact and double-PhD who once boasted of obtaining new graduate degrees at a rate of about one a year. HeтАЩs a climate-change denier, a serial entrepreneur who started companies ranging from security consultancies to a bitcoin bank, and an eccentric who wrote on his blog that he once accepted a challenge to create a pencil from scratch and spent years on the problem, going so far as to make his own bricks to build his own kiln in which to mix the pencilтАЩs graphite.
Apparently he's also a tax-dodger; his home was raided by the Australian Tax Office today (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/dec/09/bitcoin-founder-craig-wrights-home-raided-by-australian-police). I must add that to my list of common users of Bitcoin - child molesters, drug dealers and now tax evaders

As an aside the most interesting comment in the article was a rant by the Australian on Twitter:
тАШIdentityтАЩ is not your name. Where people go wrong is that they do not see it to be the set of shared experiences with other individuals.
As a definition itтАЩs pretty much what having a Forum posting identity means. Remember, on the Internet no-one knows youтАЩre a dog (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog)

[cdnmatt]

Nobody knows who invented bitcoin, but my personal opinion is the most likely scenario is the NSA. They released a white paper regarding crypto-currency well before bitcoin showed up on the scene. For another example, the US Navy developed Tor. Both, bitcoin and Tor ended up in the hands of the open source community, so the point of who invented it is rather moot.

[lonelywombat]

Fairfax has posted an update with photos on the arrest today
http://www.theage.com.au/business/bitco ... ljc73.html (http://www.theage.com.au/business/bitcoin-founder-could-definitely-be-australian-20151209-gljc73.html)
Bitcoin's mysterious creator could be Australian Craig Steven Wright
video and photos have been deleted



Police and tax investigators have raided the Sydney home of a man members of the Australian bitcoin community say might be the mastermind behind controversial cryptocurrency, just hours after reports that he may be its secretive creator surfaced in the United States.

However, Fairfax Media has been told the raid at the property of Craig Steven Wright relates to an "individual taxation matter" involving Mr Wright, rather than his apparent role in creating the encrypted currency.

The Australian Federal Police attended Mr Wright's home in Gordon, on Sydney's north shore, on Wednesday afternoon to assist the Australian Taxation Office in carrying out a search.

US report
In a report published on Wednesday morning, US tech publication Wired said it had uncovered enough evidence to suggest that bitcoin's mysterious founder, who operated under the pseudonym Satoshi Nakamoto, was actually 44-year-old Mr Wright.

Wired acknowledged that its report was based on "unverified leaked documents" that it admitted "could be faked in whole or in part".

Fairfax Media attempted to contact Mr Wright for comment but received no response. The Australian Federal Police referred matters to the ATO. The ATO declined to comment.

Mr Wright is listed by the Australian Securities and Investments Commission as a director of Hotwire and another company, Panopticrypt, which are both registered at a residential address on Sydney's North Shore. He has been a shareholder and director in a range of other enterprises, the ASIC database shows.


He is also listed as chief executive on the website of a company called DeMorgan, which describes itself "a pre-IPO Australian listed company focused on alternative currency, next generation banking and reputational and educational products." Calls to this company went straight to voicemail.

'He was a bit weird'
At about 4.15pm, the real estate agent managing the Gordon home leased by Mr Wright entered the house after being told by a neighbour, who knew the owners, that it was being searched.


Federal Police and the ATO officers were then later seen leaving the property, at 4.50pm. Asked why the federal police were at the house, they offered "no comment".

Neighbours, who didn't wish to named, said Mr Wright was an elusive man who had two children and a partner. He had expensive taste in cars, owning Toyota Land Cruiser, a Lexus, and a Jaguar, they said.

Mr Wright, his partner and children were not seen within the vicinity of the house.

Apart from owning a dog, which one neighbour described as "noisy", he also owned hens, which could be seen out the back of his house.

"I thought he did something with insurance or was an entrepreneur or something," said one neighbour, who described Wright as a "daggy dad" often seen exercising in his garage gym. "He was a bit weird."

Another neighbour said Mr Wright apparently had three-phase, 450-volt power - normally used for industrial applications - installed at the home.

The same neighbour said he recently heard that Wright had packed up the house as he was apparently off to go live in London. None of the neighbours interviewed said that Wright had told them he was the creator of Bitcoin.

Plausible candidate
Chris Guzowski, founder of ABA Technologies and regular on the Bitcoin circuit, says Wired has uncovered enough circumstantial evidence for Mr Wright to be a plausible candidate.

"It certainly makes sense," says Mr Guzowski. "He's definitely been in Bitcoin from the very start and has accumulated a really big stash of Bitcoin. He's also been in this huge stoush with the ATO for a long time."

Andrew Sommer, a partner at Clayton Utz and who testified at last year's Senate Inquiry into digital currency, is reputedly Mr White's lawyer.

But Mr Sommer said he couldn't comment on any client when contacted by Fairfax.

Zhenya Tsvetnenko, founder of bitcoin remittancy company Digital BTC, has discussed business with Mr Wright previously and was struck by his understanding of Bitcoin and his long history with the protocol.

"It could definitely be him, I remember thinking this guy could be Satoshi at the time," Mr Tsvetnenko said

"I asked him how many Bitcoin he had and he said enough to buy a pizza. Which is a joke because it's well known in the Bitcoin community the first thing bought with the very first Bitcoin was a pizza."

The Wired story was not the first time a media outlet has claimed to reveal the true identity of bitcoin's founder.

Last year, US magazine Newsweek said it had found the mysterious person behind the cryptocurrency t. However the man it named, Dorien Nakamoto, unconditionally denied Newsweek's claim, and subsequently sued the publication.

The Wired report cites archived blog posts from as far back as 2008, purportedly written by Mr Wright, which discuss aspects of the distributed ledger that is a key element of bitcoin, as well as leaked emails and a liquidation report by Australian corporate recovery firm McGrath Nicol involving one of Mr Wright's companies.

McGrath Nicol confirmed the veracity of the liquidation report, which states that the company, called Hotwire Preemptive Intelligence, was backed by $30 million in capital that was "injected via bitcoins".



Potential hoax
Wired acknowledged that the trail of evidence leading to Mr Wright could be part of an elaborate hoax.

Asher Tan of CoinJar, Australia's largest bitcoin exchange, said he was skeptical of Wired's claim, pointing out the bitcoin community relies on mathematical proof.

Solid technical proof should be given more weight than speculation, he said.

"There are some methods of doing this," Mr Tan said. These would include "moving bitcoin attributed to Satoshi's personal stash or utilising his personal encryption key (PGP) to communicate.

"These aren't foolproof methods of identifying him, but anyone who publicly stakes a claim to being Satoshi would be expected to demonstrate either of these methods."

The New York Times, which conducted an inconclusive investigation of its own into the matter, has described Mr Nakamoto's identity as "one of the great mysteries of the digital age".

But many in the bitcoin community believe that the identity of the person (or people) behind Nakamoto is irrelevant, since the virtual currency is an open source and community driven technology. It sure is a fun story though.

Do you know you Satoshi Nakamoto? Email our reporters.

[bruce_nyc]

;) Matt, I regret getting into a "debate"(?) with you about technology... for several reasons. (1) These things are not matters of debate. They are facts which anyone who cares can google and learn or even take online classes to learn. It's totally pointless to "debate" them. (2) Nobody here understands what we're talking about... and even if they did, they definitely don't care about it. This is not the right audience.

If you would really like to learn about this stuff, please contact the founder/ceo of Airbitz. He will be happy to answer all of your questions and explain everything. By the way, no, Airbitz is not *my* project. I have nothing to do with it. I'm just a huge fan of it because of it's cutting edge technology, especially with regard to security, decentralization, privacy, but also in the area of ease of use.

Seriously, if you care at all about the truth, then watch each of these first two videos several times until you really understand what they're saying... They are a good starting point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkTyxnhZ16w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFoEdKxH1fQ
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... z+security (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=airbitz+security)

[cdnmatt]

Matt, I regret getting into a "debate"(?) with you about technology

You have yet to give any semblance of a technical response, whereas I have, so yeah, I don't blame you for regretting it.


If you would really like to learn about this stuff, please contact the founder/ceo of Airbitz.

I know the protocol inside and out, and am also quite well versed in online security these days, so thanks, but no thanks. I started this journey about 2.5 years ago when a long-term client hit me up, and asked me to develop a bitcoin site for him. I accepted, and the next year of my life was definitely a strong learning curve, waking up nearly every monrning to e-mails with subjects such as "URGENT! Hackers again!". Go through that for a year, and you'll quickly hone your online security skills.

Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. If AirBitz is actually passing keys around on a P2P network encrypted with just the user's password, then again, that's a very stupid and dangerous thing to do. My assumption is they got a little carried away with the concept of decentralization, and made some fundamental flaws during development. That's just one of those things you don't do. Ask any online security expert, and they'll agree with me.

My apologies for getting so defensive, but again, you're fucking with people's money by giving bad advice. Don't do that unless you know what you're talking about.

[bruce_nyc]

I first got into IT consulting about 37 years ago. As I may have mentioned, I worked my way up to Director of IT R&D for a Fortune 400 company. Later, I launched my own IT consulting firm... and had one of the largest banks in the US as a major client. I ran that for several years. I got out of that just a year or so before the tech bubble burst.

I first discovered bitcoin in November 2010, less than 2 years after Satoshi created it and launched the blockchain. I immersed myself in understanding everything about the network, the protocol, and how it all works.... I practically didn't eat or sleep for 2 weeks... just studying it 24 hours a day.... just because I recognized that it was pure genius, and I wanted to understand everything about it. One bitcoin was selling for about $0.20 at that time. ( The price had just climbed suddenly. It had been at about $0.06 per bitcoin for most of 2010. Today the price is $415 per bitcoin. ) I used to chat with Satoshi himself directly on the bitcoin forum ( the predecessor of what later became the wasteland called bitcointalk ). The lead developer of bitcoin, who Satoshi appointed to take over running the project, is a close friend of mine as well.

Also, I am fanatical about bitcoin security and safety.

These days I spend my time educating people about bitcoin, and enjoying life in Thailand with my bf. ;)

[cdnmatt]

haha, you're friends with Gavin? Ok... :) He's not too well liked any more, for obvious reasons.

Or maybe Greg Maxwell you're talking about? He's still very well respected.


Also, I am fanatical about bitcoin security and safety.

Quite obviously not, because you're under the assumption private keys are passed around the blockchain. You have no idea about BIP32, and don't understand the basics.

Let's just agree to disagree. That's easier.

[bruce_nyc]

Gavin. He was the 2nd in charge technical lead of the Bitcoin project when he and Satoshi were working on it together. Then, just before Satoshi decided to disappear, he appointed Gavin to be the 1st lead of the project..... which he has remained..... until recently. Anyone who doesn't have the highest praise for Gavin, is ignorant of things.

Nowadays, I'd say about 99% of the "bitcoin community" ( if you could call it that ) is totally ignorant of how bitcoin really works, the history of the network, everything.

It's very much like the Internet itself. In the earliest days of the Internet, it was the creators of the Internet themselves who were the users. Nowadays, 99.9% of Internet users don't have the first clue about how it works.

I was among the first early users of what was the predecessor of the Internet. ....of the first Mac. ....of the first Windows. Of many things. And I was among the very few who were the first ones into, and using, bitcoin. I could go on and on. But this is the wrong forum for this topic.

[bruce_nyc]

Quite obviously not, because you're under the assumption private keys are passed around the blockchain. You have no idea about BIP32, and don't understand the basics.

Again, everything in this statement is incorrect. But I'm not going to get into it here.

[cdnmatt]

Gavin's commit access to the Github repository has been revoked, because him and Mike Hearn tried to hijack bitcoin with XT. However, XT failed miserably, which is good -- Gavin and Mike can go fuck themselves with their blacklists, centralization, denying Tor nodes, etc.


Nowadays, I'd say about 99% of the "bitcoin community" ( if you could call it that ) is totally ignorant of how bitcoin really works

You don't know either. You thought the BIP32 private key I posted previously was wrong, and it's not.


It's very much like the Internet itself.

Yes, the difference being we're fucking with people's money now. Don't do that unless you know what you're talking about, and trust me, you don't.


Again, everything in this statement is incorrect. But I'm not going to get into it here.

Then explain to me Mr. IT consulatant who's been in the business for 37 years, how is it incorrect?

[bruce_nyc]

( I'm not going to reply to any more nonsense posts. )

But back to the OP's original topic....

Yes, Bitcoin is *the* free and instant alternative to using Western Union.

If anyone would like simple step by step instructions for sending money internationally for free..... using bitcoin, send me a PM..... or ask here. I'm happy to help.

__

One side note, I am surprised that more businesses in Pattaya aren't accepting bitcoin yet. The Pattaya Beer Garden at the foot of Walking Street has been accepting bitcoin for a long time now.... and they love it, obviously. And we have many gay businesses here in Bangkok who are already accepting Bitcoin. But I don't know why more other gay and non-gay businesses in Pattaya are not accepting bitcoin yet.

To get your business set up to accept bitcoin, it's as easy as setting up a free email account. And there are zero fees. Zero charge backs. Let me know if anyone would like (free) help with this as well.

[bruce_nyc]

https://youtu.be/kkTyxnhZ16w?t=25m57s

About half way into this video, Paul starts talking about Airbitz. It's a real eye opener.

[cdnmatt]

https://youtu.be/kkTyxnhZ16w?t=25m57s

About half way into this video, Paul starts talking about Airbitz. It's a real eye opener.

And right out of the gate he begins discussing how they pass private keys around on a P2P network they developed. Again, even if encrypted, you don't do that. It has to be two-way encryption, which makes the concept even worse. I'm a little uncertain what their end goal was, but they made some very fundamental flaws during development. Even just mnemonic passwords would have been better than that, and I dislike those as well to the point I refuse to integrate them either.

He also mentioned quite a few inaccuracies in that video. I'm assuming he knows what he's talking about though, and is just dumbing it down for the audience. He seems like an intelligent guy, so all the best to AirBitz, but I think they need to revisit the drawing board on a few crucial aspects. I promise you, if and when this thing gains traction, people are going to get their money stolen.

[bruce_nyc]

Utter nonsense.

There is no such thing as a modern bitcoin wallet that *doesn't* encrypt the wallet ( including, most importantly, the private keys ), and then send it somewhere as a backup. To *not* do so would be a major flaw in the design of a bitcoin wallet.

Also, you're making loads of false assumptions because you're apparently too lazy to do the research... or even watch a few videos.... and try to understand them.

Airbitz does not encrypt the private keys using only the password. See quote below.

Airbitz did not create the p2p network. It's an industry standard architecture for securely backing up in a distributed way.

That video was done Sept 2014. By now, Airbitz is already taking the lead in the bitcoin wallet space. Nobody has ever lost any bitcoin using Airbitz. Many users store $50,000 to $100,000 in their Airbitz Wallet on their phone. It's actually quite common. It's pretty much *impossible* to lose bitcoin by any means.... if you use Airbitz.

It's already automatically backed up.... by the time the wallet is able to receive money.

You could install the app, then I send you $100, then you immediately drop your phone into the ocean..... and you wouldn't lose a cent.

From https://airbitz.co/go/faq/


AirBitz uses AES256 for encryption and the keys are generated from the userтАЩs login + password. The login & password are combined then hashed using Scrypt with a minimum set of (N,r,p) parameters of (16384,1,1) which is many orders of magnitude stronger than most other wallets, especially web wallets which typically only use a SHA hash with a few thousand rounds. Scrypt is way more memory and CPU intensive per round.

The minimum parameters of (16384,8,1) are only on slow iPhone 4 or old Android devices. On faster phones the parameters can go as high as (128000,8,1) which are extremely difficult to brute force.

Also note that no Scrypt ASIC miners can hash Airbitz passwords as ASIC miners only use parameters (1024,1,1).

Random number generation is a critical aspect to cryptography, and Airbitz utilizes several sources of entropy to provide randomness. First is the operating system random number generator. Airbitz calls directly into the core of the OS, bypassing potential issues with libraries such as those present in an earlier version of the Java library. Entropy is also added from various system sources such as free memory, time/date, and file system info. This combination protects from a compromise of any one of the entropy sources.

If you watch this video starting at 11m 30s ..... This guy actually gives a very good whiteboard overview of the unique security and architecture features of Airbitz. No other wallet comes close to this level of security and loss-prevention.

https://youtu.be/eFoEdKxH1fQ

[cdnmatt]

That's because you can't, because you don't know what you're talking about.

You're just a bitcoin enthusiast / marketing piece, but don't actually understand the underlying technology behind it. You might think you do, but you've already proven to me you don't.

Again, anyone wanting to get into bitcoin, I can recommend https://electrum.org/ for a wallet. That's not my software, and I have absolutely no affiliation with it whatsoever. Just Google it, you can read the reviews, and see it's a time tested, secure wallet. I don't use it myself, but majority of my clients do.

I develop more commercial based applications, which quite obviously is of absolutely no use to anyone here. However, end-user wallets might be. Prostitutes throughout North America love bitcoin these days, so there's no reason that won't spread to Thailand, hence within a year or two you can expect your favorite bar boy in white briefs to accept bitcoin as payment, if they don't already.

[Nirish guy]

I don't know why more other gay and non-gay businesses (in Pattaya) are not accepting bitcoin yet.

Well Pattaya aside I can tell you that one reason that I wouldn't consider using Bitcoin in my business anytime soon is that assuming for the sake of good manners that neither of you two gentlemen are setting out to intentionally fleece the membership of the board etc, then if YOU TWO apparently knowledgable "experts" ( or one expert and one bluffer or both of you somewhere in between perhaps, I really can't tell ) can't even agree on what is safe working proceedures and what is not then how the hell are we, the ordinary Joes out there, meant to know or trust Bitcoin and or the software and people behind it all !!

I think to me THAT is one of Bitcoins biggest weakness as I see it - that plus the seemingly very high probability of one getting their money stolen by hackers ( or Bitcoin App writers even ?) if you DON'T know what you're doing as THAT from what I've read above seems to be the only one thing on which you DO both agree ! :-(

[bruce_nyc]

First, I want to mention that I do *not* recommend using Electrum. There are many reasons for that. One of the most obvious reasons is that it's not a bitcoin wallet. It cannot even run on a smartphone..... so good luck carrying your entire PC in your pocket to the bar or restaurant or gay sex massage shop. Also, it does not make an automatic encrypted off-site backup of your wallet. So, you step away from your laptop and your laptop gets stolen.... and you can say bye bye to all your money. :-* Also, as everyone knows, computers are very highly prone to malware ( aka viruses ) that *will* steal your bitcoins. Smartphones are exponentially more secure than computers are.

Also, by the way, Airbitz is the *only* smartphone bitcoin wallet that does not rely on the app publisher's servers to process transactions in any way. In other words, if Airbitz company were to vanish overnight, along with all of their servers.... app users wouldn't even notice. Everything would work just as normal. And, of course, Airbitz never has access to the users' bitcoin or account data. NO OTHER SMARTPHONE BITCOIN WALLET can make that statement.


I can tell you that one reason that I wouldn't consider using Bitcoin in my business anytime soon is that assuming for the sake of good manners that neither of you two gentlemen are setting out to intentionally fleece the membership of the board etc, then if YOU TWO apparently knowledgable "experts" ( or one expert and one bluffer or both of you somewhere in between perhaps, I really can't tell ) can't even agree on what is safe working proceedures and what is not then how the hell are we, the ordinary Joes out there, meant to know or trust Bitcoin and or the software and people behind it all !!

I hear ya. I understand exactly what you're saying and I can empathize with your feeling about it. Bitcoin is cash.... in an electronic form.... so, by definition, it will always be an ideal target for thieves. Gold, silver, diamonds, and.... cash.... are all equally a big target for thieves. That's why, as with all of these commodities, it's extremely important that you handle them, and store them, with great care.... taking the advice of "experts" that *you* trust.

I am fanatical about bitcoin security, and I am a true expert in the field. ( However, I think I've never actually uttered those words before.... because everyone in the bitcoin world already knows me and knows that I am. )

Matt, in your egocentric quest to make yourself seem "smart" by putting others down... you are really doing damage to bitcoin..... as you can see.... Confusing people is not helpful to anyone...... and definitely not helpful to bitcoin.

In the old days, we really had very limited options to really provide true hardened security for people in protecting their bitcoins. But I always knew that the software and systems would continue to evolve and improve very quickly. Now, we have the extreme security we need..... *and* it's easier to use than any banking app. It's called Airbitz. There is no more secure hot wallet in the world.

And for offline cold storage, ( for very large investment amounts; i.e. more than $100,000 ) we all now have excellent new options as well.

Bitcoin is really ready for prime time now. That might have something to do with its value going from $354 to $415 in only the past 7 days. The value just keeps going up.... year after year.... as I've been predicting for years.

For some other opinions about accepting bitcoin in your business, I'd recommend calling on the phone and speaking with the owners of Pattaya Beer Garden in Pattaya, and Eat Me Restaurant in Bangkok. I'm sure they'd be happy to speak with you and explain why they love accepting bitcoin in their businesses. Also, PaleoRobbie.com which is the number one healthy gourmet meal home delivery service in Bangkok, has been accepting bitcoin for a long time now. I've also just convinced the largest local Bangkok pizza delivery business to accept bitcoin. They'll be implementing it soon.

[Nirish guy]

Again without getting into who's right or wrong in general here, one quick question - so Mr Airbitz and Mr Electrum have both it seems designed and released some form of bit coin wallet - why ? Whats in it for them ? I'm assuming it's free to use these wallets ??? and if so as it's free to do money transfers etc again what do they ( or any developer) get from working on improving the Bitcoin industry ?

Oh and Bruce just to be clear it's not that Matt's posts that confuse the issue and make me not trust Bitcoin as for all I know he could well be 100% correct, my point is and was that theres even the room for such fully opposing positions between yourselves in the first place, THAT'S what would make me avoid Bitcoin. People can argue about which bank gives the best rates and what's the fastest way to send money via your bank etc but no one is arguing that generally speaking it will get there without being scammed off you before you even send it ( with normal robbing bastard bank scams excepted of course) but THAT to be is the difference as with Bitcoin I've no confidence of that ACTUALLY happening risk free every time I might use the service.

[bruce_nyc]

That's why I suggest that you talk with people who are actually *using* bitcoin every single day..... to do tons of transactions... from $10 to $100,000 each.... or whatever amounts. They'll tell you.

About the bad information posted here, it's not that we can't agree. It's that only one of us has any idea what he's talking about. So don't listen to either of us. Just go to the meetup.com Bitcoin Meetup in your city and ask them. The Bangkok Bitcoin meetup is very large now. They meet every week on Mondays. Mostly they're all bitcoin users, and there are a few bitcoin accepting merchants there, and a few real experts. Of course, they all know me.

To your excellent question of, Why do these developers create bitcoin wallets? What's in it for them?

Bitcoin Wallets are just software / programs / apps..... and like all software, it can be either published by passionate volunteers and made available to the whole world for free for the benefit of all mankind..... or it can be made proprietary and closed in order to make a profit. The first type is called FOSS, Free Open Source Software. Examples of some great FOSS software include: Linux (which is the brains inside everything from your Tivo to your elevators to the Mars Rovers), Firefox, VLC, Bitcoin (the network itself), OpenOffice, phpBB (this forum), and millions of others. Examples of some proprietary software include: everything published by Apple, Microsoft, and most apps in an Apple App Store.

Electrum is not a real wallet, in the sense that it doesn't run on a portable device. It's a desktop app. It is FOSS and developed by volunteers.

Airbitz is a private for-profit company. They publish Airbitz as a FOSS app though. The app is completely open source. The way Airbitz will make money is.... Within the app, you have the ability to buy or sell bitcoin for your local currency. Airbitz company will get a tiny cut of the fees charged by that outside company that handles the buying / selling of bitcoin.

[Mancs]

Bitcoin is really ready for prime time now. That might have something to do with its value going from $354 to $415 in only the past 7 days. The value just keeps going up.... year after year.... as I've been predicting for years.


So if I'd bought bitcoin at up to $1250 at the end of 2013, early 2014, would I be in profit at $416 today?

[cdnmatt]

Again without getting into who's right or wrong in general here, one quick question - so Mr Airbitz and Mr Electrum have both it seems designed and released some form of bit coin wallet - why ? Whats in it for them ?

Money. I'm unsure of how Electrum makes money, but I'm assuming it's the same as me. I have both, open source and commercial wallets that I've developed, and the open source one is bascally used as my resume. It lets potential clients check out my work before they hire me, and is a great marketing tool. I'm assuming others like Electrum and AirBitz do the same -- take on commercial clients. It's the same way for example, how Oracle and RedHat make money. They both other free open source software that's widely popular, but also have commercial based products / services they sell.

If I was a general purpose software developer, due to globalization I'd probably be struggling to land $40/hour contracts. Being a developer that specializes in bitcoin though allows me to charge about 3x that amount plus licensing fees, and I get my choice of contracts. I don't even have to look for clients -- they come to me, and I have far more work than I can handle.

[cdnmatt]

One of the most obvious reasons is that it's not a bitcoin wallet. It cannot even run on a smartphone

heh, this is getting comical now. So only mobile apps are considered "wallets" in your eyes?


Also, it does not make an automatic encrypted off-site backup of your wallet

Right, because that would be a really fucken stupid and dangerous thing to do. If a client ever requested I developed that, I would try to talk them out of it, and if I couldn't, would refuse the project.


So, you step away from your laptop and your laptop gets stolen.... and you can say bye bye to all your money.

No. You can backup your BIP32 private key on things like a USB card, or even just a piece of paper. That private key is all you need to access your funds. Again, it looks like this:

xprv9s21ZrQH143K2JF8RafpqtKiTbsbaxEeUaMnNHsm5o6wCW 3z8ySyH4UxFVSfZ8n7ESu7fgir8imbZKLYVBxFPND1pniTZ81v Kfd45EHKX73

You can see here -- http://bip32.org/


Smartphones are exponentially more secure than computers are.

What do you think a smartphone is? It's a computer that's connected to the internet. It's just as prone to viruses and hacking than a desktop / laptop is.


Matt, in your egocentric quest to make yourself seem "smart" by putting others down... you are really doing damage to bitcoin..... as you can see.... Confusing people is not helpful to anyone...... and definitely not helpful to bitcoin.

No, you are by pushing a newer app that has yet to stand the test of time. Especially considering you have yet to give any semblance of a technical response. Give it some time -- let the people who actually know about bitcoin go through AirBitz, plus the hackers, before you start pushing it to people with no knowledge of bitcoin.


Bitcoin is really ready for prime time now. That might have something to do with its value going from $354 to $415 in only the past 7 days.

Bitcoin goes up and down all the time. Wouldn't get too excited, because it'll probably be back to $350 in short order. Again, mid-2016 when the block rewards halve is when you can expect a permanent price increase.

[Smiles]

So if I'd bought bitcoin at up to $1250 at the end of 2013, early 2014, would I be in profit at $416 today?
Exactly. The original handful of early birds to Bitcoin could have made a killing .... buying in at 6 cents and selling out at $1200. Happens all time with new startups in the penny stock markets.

[cdnmatt]

Here you go bruce:

https://youtu.be/kkTyxnhZ16w?t=43m37s

That's the video you previously shared. Start it at 43:37 while he's doing a Q&A, and specifically says, "if someone already has your files, then yeah, you're relying on the encryption".

Ok, let's start with that. Now if people have been capable of hacking into systems of say, Target, Home Depot, Bank of America, US State Department, US Department of Defence, and so on -- it stands to reason at some point they're going to get into AirBitz's network. Can we agree there?

So at some point, hackers are going to get access to those files, which are protected with AES256 encryption, and open source technology meaning the hackers can easily see the secret key used, plus the # of iterations. They'll be able to easily brute force those keys, which means anyone using a password less than say 8 characters is most likely going to have their funds stolen, and that's a lot of people.

[bruce_nyc]

From the Founder of Airbitz:


Private keys are not being passed around a network encrypted by only your password.

They are encrypted by a fully random 256 bit key. That key is then encrypted by a strongly hashed login and password and stored on the user's device and backed up to our server.

And since there isn't an association between the hashed username and password and the encrypted data, a hacker would have to brute force thousands of hashed logins and passwords hoping to find a wallet of any value.

So if I'd bought bitcoin at up to $1250 at the end of 2013, early 2014, would I be in profit at $416 today?
Exactly. The original handful of early birds to Bitcoin could have made a killing .... buying in at 6 cents and selling out at $1200. Happens all time with new startups in the penny stock markets.
The Bloomberg journalist Olga Kharif who specialises in stories about Bitcoin has recently written a story What's in store for Bitcoin in 2016 (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-11/bitcoin-what-s-in-store-for-2016). It ends:

More bitcoin startups could merge or go out of business, Silbert predicted. One cause for that will probably be the lower-than-anticipated pace of consumer bitcoin adoption. Sharp swings in the digital money's value against the dollar and other currencies will continue to turn off users and make bitcoin impractical for everyday purchases.

[Mancs]

If I had bought at the peak of ┬г1242 some two years ago and sold today I would have a loss of 63%. I appreciate that 6 cents to $448 in the last 5 or so would be better. I think I need to start a currency. Mancinars anyone?

[bruce_nyc]

Yeah. Reporters have proven themselves completely ignorant about bitcoin the vast majority of the time..... even when just attempting to report "facts" and news. Looking to them for their personal "predictions" is laughable. They've reported that, "Bitcoin is Dead" .......countless .......*countless* times over the years. We always joke, "look... bitcoin is dead. ... again." ......just before it comes back and sees another huge price surge.

Doing a google NEWS search for the phrase "bitcoin is dead" yields 143 official news articles all over the web.... in just the past 1 year.... ! Obviously, all bs, lies, and idiocy.

Bitcoin will reach ┬г1242 one day soon.... but it hasn't yet. Ever.

The price of a bitcoin reached an all-time high of US$1124.76 on 29 November 2013, up from just US$13.36 on 5 January at the start of the year; the price subsequently dropped into the $200-$300 range.

If you look only at one exceptional spike in the value.... You're focusing on the static from the phonograph needle.... and completely ignoring the *music* ! I don't personally know *anyone* who bought, or sold, at that high price peak. It was a fluke.

Way back when Bitcoin was at about $1.40 per, I became famous for predicting that bitcoin value will just go, "Up up up!"

So yes..... The clear 'Big Picture' is a steady climb ( with spikes and lows along the way ).... but a steady overall long term climb.... from $0.06 to the $454.45 it is at the moment I'm writing this.

The truth is..... This climb will continue until bitcoin reaches at least $100,000 per bitcoin. And that is assuming the USD stays at its current value. Of course, the USD has *lost* 96% of its value since 1913. And this trend will continue too. In fact, the USD will soon lose value *much* faster than it has historically.

My former doorman used to hang on my every word of advice, but unlike the vast majority of people, he actually took action and did what I advised him to do. Now he's a retired millionaire.

Anyway, arguing against the future of bitcoin.... is like arguing that, "The Internet is just a fad." And using pets.com or the dot-com-bubble as your "proof". You're guaranteed to be on the wrong side of history. ....on the laughable side.

I sincerely hope that some of you here will become millionaires in the next few years.

[cdnmatt]

I highly doubt bitcoin is going to reach $100k any time soon. That would mean a market cap of say $16 trillion by that time. That's the same as the entire US GDP. The world's GDP is round $107 trillion, so I'm pretty sure bitcoin isn't going to take over more than 10% of that.

I love bitcoin too, but at least be realistic about it.

Yes, it's a really cool technology. Yes, it's here to stay, and yes, adoption will continue to increase as times goes on. I don't even have a problem seeing it around $2000, especially if / when more economic crises hit the world. But to think it's going to go to $100k just isn't logical.

Having said that, we all better hope the price of bitcoin doubles by mid-2016, or else the network is fucked. Miners are already working on fairly tight margins, so once the block rewards halve, we all better hope the price increases enough to keep them in business.

[bruce_nyc]

Yeah, I know. That's what everyone was telling me when bitcoin was $1.40

That figure of $100,000 does not come from me, by the way. It comes from a famous economist writing in Forbes. Others have suggested that it will go as high as $1,000,000 per bitcoin.

But, remember several things...

We tend to "measure" the value of bitcoin in terms of USD. Meanwhile, the value of one USD continues to plummet, and it will continue to plummet faster and faster in the coming years. So it's a bit like measuring the height of the glass elevator you're in..... based only on your relative height as compared to the glass elevator next to yours. Meanwhile, the elevator next to you is going down. You will think you are going up.... even if you're not... because that one is going down. My Point: The real true value of Bitcoin will continue to go up up up.... But if it continues to be expresses in terms of USD.... It's "numeric expression of value" ( the number of USD its worth ) will go up exponentially.... as the value of one USD falls even faster than the Bitcoin goes up. That's one reason why these predictions of bitcoin value (expressed in USD) are so numerically high. It's the *combination* of the bitcoin skyrocketing in value + the USD plummeting in value.... at the same time.

So you can laugh or ridicule.... or you can get rich if you stay in for the long term ( more than a one year investment! ).... But anyone who doesn't buy at least $100 worth of bitcoin NOW.... will be kicking themselves before too long. And those who do, will be wondering why the hell they didn't buy more.

[cdnmatt]

Ok, it's definitely not going up to $1,000,000. That would require the entire world's economy, plus more. I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.

But yeah, I'm in it for the long-term too. I only need about 60,000/month to live, so just pull out the little I need, and leave the rest sitting there. I don't see how I could spend more than that here. Well, I guess I could get a BF, and then living costs jump to around 150,000/month, haha. :)

I'm not a speculator though, but have no problem seeing the price increasing. Not to the levels you say, but nonetheless, adoption will continue and the price will slowly increase over the long-term.

[bruce_nyc]

( You're "pretty sure" of a lotta things.... ;) )

Anyway....

Some of you might have seen me sitting at the terrace restaurant at the Ambiance.... "working" on my laptop there.... around April of 2012.... It was just before my birthday. I had stayed in Pattaya up until Valentine's Day ( as Rush made reference to in his email I posted on another thread )... then I went back to Thailand around April 18. I remember that I had flown to Bangkok about a week earlier than I told my ( then ) thai bf from pattaya..... so I could play around with my *other* thai bf for a week in Chiang Mai! :ymdevil: But my bf in New York asked him, "How is it seeing Bruce there again?" ( He forgot that he was not supposed to say anything. :-ss ) Anyway, I remember very clearly that the price of bitcoin was $12 that day. It had just been $2 only four months before that. I was feeling great! Time to go off a few boys! :D

Reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... ue_history (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bitcoin#Prices_and_value_history)

Up to the moment price now: http://preev.com/btc/usd/source:bitfinex ( USD $465.50 )

[bruce_nyc]

So only mobile apps are considered "wallets" in your eyes?

So are you used to taking your laptop to a coffee shop to pay for the coffee..... or do you take your entire desktop PC, router, etc with you to the coffee shop....? :-s

To quote a great man,

"A wallet fits in your pocket."

[bruce_nyc]

Anyone who takes one glance at the CHART on this page ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... ue_history (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bitcoin#Prices_and_value_history) ) and cannot spot the TREND.... is blind. :-?

Just sayin....

From a value of *zero* per bitcoin..... to $469 per bitcoin..... in less than 7 years.

By the way, It's very important to realize bitcoin do NOT need to be purchased in 1 whole bitcoin amounts. You can buy $1000 worth, or $100 worth, or $10 worth, or $1 worth, or $0.10 worth.

As you can see from this interactive calculator..... You can buy USD $0.10 worth of bitcoin. You will then have 0.0002141 bitcoin. This is normal. ( see http://preev.com/btc/usd/source:bitfinex )

To buy, or sell, bitcoin in Thailand..... I highly recommend this site: http://coins.co.th They are awesome people, and awesome service. ( Or, I am happy to buy or sell bitcoin with you guys for cash at any time too. )

So, the offer still stands....

Anyone here who installs the free Airbitz Wallet app and sends me a Receive Request, I will send them $20 for free. ( see https://airbitz.co/bitcoin-wallet/ )

:-$

[cdnmatt]

Come on, do you really want another technical debate with me? I really don't see the reason for that, and I'm tired of discussing this with someone with no technical knowledge of bitcoin or online security. I've hinted many times that I know what I'm talking about, with hopes you'd follow me up in the discussion. You didn't though, because you can't. You posted a couple responses that AirBitz provided you regarding technicalities, but that was it.

Even the responses from AirBitz you posted didn't inspire me much. I'll stick with what I said -- they made some fundamental flaws during the concept / development phase of their app. I understand what they're trying to do, but nonetheless, it's common sense to anyone such as myself that you simply don't do that. Instead, do things like have a wallet app with a backup feature allowing you to backup your private keys to a USB card. That's very private financial data, so don't pass that data around on a P2P network, even if encrypted.

[bruce_nyc]

It's approximately a million times less secure to pass those unencrypted private keys over to a computer/laptop..... then on to a USB drive...

Sending it over to your laptop.... then on to a USB drive.... all which are very likely *compromised* with viruses.... is something only a fool would do.

In addition to that, it adds a whole lot of complexity that the average user would simply never never do...

94% of users will not perform even the simplest of backups... ever. ( ref https://www.backblaze.com/blog/94-of-co ... data-loss/ (https://www.backblaze.com/blog/94-of-computer-users-still-risk-data-loss/) )

And..... It doesn't give you an off-site backup either. One burglary or fire, and all your money is gone.

:ymsick:

Extremely strong encryption is the most important thing.

That, and the fact that it never leaves your mobile device unencrypted.

And that the backup is stored off-site, and in a totally decentralized way.... so that even if a company disappears, your backup doesn't.

And that It all happens instantly and automatically... so that it actually gets done.

These are the most important things.

[bruce_nyc]

How does Electrum make money?

I don't believe it has to. It's a free open source project. No company behind it.

For those who want to gamble on the Bitcoin phenomenon (realistically it's the digital equivalent of gold, but for for hi-tech wankers) you should check out Nadex (http://www.nadex.com/)

[bruce_nyc]

For those who want to gamble on the Bitcoin phenomenon (realistically it's the digital equivalent of gold, but for for hi-tech wankers) you should check out Nadex (http://www.nadex.com/)

For the record, this is not bitcoin. This is more dangerous than day trading.

I've never heard of that web site before, but after reading about it just now, it's selling *options* on binary market pairs. That is not bitcoin and I highly recommend against that type of gambling..... and that type of *short term* investing. Your odds would be better at a casino.... where at least they have free drinks and girls and boys in feathers and sequins. ( see the comments at the bottom of http://www.reviewopedia.com/nadex-com-reviews )

Investing in bitcoin is very complicated. You must learn lots of jargon. Here are the steps:

(1) Install the Airbitz Wallet to hold your bitcoins safely.
(2) Buy some bitcoin using cash. It can be $1 or $100,000 ( or change the $ to ┬г or тВм or THB --- any amount )
(3) Hold onto them for at least a year.

See? Very complicated.

[bruce_nyc]

I've been contacted by PM by a few people here already.

For example, one who contacted me said (( and I've blanked out the name of the global corporation he works for, but 100% of you would recognize its name )),

"I've been reading your discussion about bitcoin with great interest. I work for _________________ in the IT department specializing in our internal payment systems for invoice and payroll payments. The topic of bitcoin has been coming up more and more in our meetings and I need to learn about it quickly."

He installed Airbitz and I sent him $20. It took nearly 10 seconds altogether. But it was his first time. He'll get faster at it.... ;)

Even enormous global organizations like his..... are now discovering the benefits of Zero fees, worldwide money transfers, that happen as fast as sending an email.... and involve no banks.

Even a 12 year old with a newspaper route.... Or a 10 year old with a lemonade stand..... can set *himself* up to accept bitcoin with no permission or help needed from anybody.

You might think it's only global corporations like Microsoft, Dell, Expedia, WordPress, Overstock, and PayPal...... that accept bitcoin. Yes, these companies all DO accept bitcoin. But it's also gay sex massage shops in Bangkok too.... like The Prince and Baan Tewa. And gay restaurants, like Eat Me Restaurant. As well as little kids' lemonaide stands all over the world. Bitcoin is simply the global cash.... of the 21st century.

Check out the map at http://coinmap.org

[Smiles]

Bruce ... you come across as a middle level Amway salesman. RA RA RA ... gettin' the kids involved.
What's next, mass cheering sections at the Bitcoin rally in Albuquerque.

[bruce_nyc]

I didn't get the kids involved. They got themselves involved. I don't know those people. I found them with a simple Google photo search. I'm just regurgitating the news.... to get you "kids" up to speed..... with the 21st century. ;;)

Click on this photo to see it full size.....

Of course, I try to support all businesses that accept bitcoin.

:-*

For those who want to gamble on the Bitcoin phenomenon (realistically it's the digital equivalent of gold, but for for hi-tech wankers) you should check out Nadex (http://www.nadex.com/)
For the record, this is not bitcoin. This is more dangerous than day trading.
I know as an American you struggle with the English language so I'll repeat my opening statement "For those who want to gamble on the Bitcoin phenomenon ..."

[bruce_nyc]

I was agreeing that it is definitely gambling....

But it is definitely *not* "the bitcoin phenomenon". It has nothing at all to do with bitcoin.

[bruce_nyc]

Bitcoin offers solutions to some of the absurdities of the traditional banking system. For example, a virtual currency like Bitcoin could dramatically speed up and reduce the cost of sending money abroad. ItтАЩs ridiculous that it can take four banks (all taking a cut) over a week to send dollars from a UK company to a Chinese producer. Implementing this change alone could save the real economy billions of pounds in card fees and transaction costs every year.

And itтАЩs not just the big guys that would benefit. It could transform the prospects of millions of small businesses. The reduced cost and simplicity of a digital currency could circumvent laborious bank processes and give small merchants quick, fairly-priced access to online and mobile payments.

--- Kristo Kaarman, TransferWise co-founder

[bruce_nyc]

PayPal Founder Peter Thiel ( who by the way is gay and is a *very* close friend of a good friend of mine )..... quite agrees with me.

He says, "Bitcoin is the future of money." ( but I was saying that publicly years before he did )

That's why businesses which accept PayPal *also* automatically accept bitcoin.

Watch this video from February of this year, https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/paypal- ... e-bitcoin/ (https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/paypal-founder-peter-thiel-comments-state-bitcoin/)

( By the way, at the time of this video, Peter did not yet know about Airbitz. At that time, Airbitz was brand new and hadn't become famous yet. So, from Peter's perspective, what he was saying was *exactly* correct.... Prior to Airbitz, bitcoin *was* extremely difficult for non-technical average people to use. They were forced to use horrible ancient wallet software like Electrum, or Mycelium, or Core, or worse apps.... which are a nightmare compared to Airbitz' ease of use. )

[bruce_nyc]

"US dollars and other paper currencies are credits issued by a single nation. Their strength lies in the strength of the nation that controls them.

BitcoinтАЩs strength lies in its mathematical design. Its open nature eliminates the need for trust.

When nations print more money, their currencies get weaker. In bitcoin, nobody can just decide to increase the amount, including the creator of bitcoin. Bitcoin is more like gold than cash."

--- George Coffie


"Bitcoin is not a currency for a government; it is a global currency for the people. "

--- Wences Casares (Xapo's CEO) said in TechCrunch


"One of the things I notice over time is how people who at first said Bitcoin could never work now begin to say things like "Bitcoin might work on small scale". Andreas Antonopoulos made a great point about how a lot of the counter arguments about the limitations of Bitcoin are really only valid about it's core code as it stood back in 2009, but they don't take into account all of the supplementary technologies that are being built around and for Bitcoin like the 2.0 protocols and escrow services and such and it's these supplementary technologies which will help make Bitcoin capable of scaling as a global currency and can ultimately prove against the majority of the things people think it can't do."

--- Kevin Caza

[Smiles]

How is any of Brucie's tripe related to 'gay Thailand' in any conceivable way.
If there ever was a topic which begged being broken up and the Bitcoin nonsense part relegated to - at the very least - the 'Everything Else' Forum, this is it.

[bruce_nyc]

Obviously,

Bitcoin is THE best alternative to Western Union for instantly sending money to Thailand with virtually zero fees..... which is the original topic.

( Also, I was not the one who brought up the subject of bitcoin.... In all these years, I never mentioned that topic here.... until others did. )


To Send Money To Thailand:

(1) Install the Airbitz wallet to hold your bitcoins... at https://airbitz.co/bitcoin-wallet

(2) Go to https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com to figure out the best company to buy your bitcoin from locally with zero or near zero fees.

(3) Once you have your bitcoins inside your Airbitz wallet, open a free account at https://coins.co.th

(4) Immediately do a Sell on coins.co.th and have them send it as THB to your boyfriend's Thai bank account.... or to any ATM in Thailand (with no need for any ATM card).

(5) Done. (Total Fees should be about US $0.03 *regardless* of the amount of money you are sending .....plus the 30 baht that the Thai bank will charge.)

[Smiles]

Absolute bullshit. You are nothing but a quintessential snake oil salesman, in the same fashion as the horse and buggy days of the American 19th century. You are using this board as a flogging tool ... your version of a horse-and-buggy so to speak. The only difference is that a message board can talk back, unlike a horse.

[bruce_nyc]

A side note....

I observed this "law of nature" a long time ago.... and pointed it out to people.

The smarter, and more technical, a person/engineer is.... the more *excited* they are when they learn about how bitcoin works.

Thus....

You can always tell the intelligence and expertise of a person by how excited they are about the future of bitcoin and blockchain technology.

All the greatest minds on earth are *raving* about it.

But don't listen to me... Use google..... read, and learn.

Bill Gates says bitcoin is the future of money. ( sources: http://www.whatisacryptocurrency.com/bi ... ocurrency/ (http://www.whatisacryptocurrency.com/bill-gates-bitcoin-cryptocurrency/) and: http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/238103 and: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCAtt1AxDR4 )

Joe Blow unpaid journalist/blogger says bitcoin is a scam.

You decide who to listen to...

Or just keep using your horse and buggy every time you want to travel to the market.

[bruce_nyc]

A great little documentary....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zKuoqZLyKg

Roger Ver is a close friend of mine. I am the one who first gave him the nickname, "Bitcoin Jesus". :D It stuck.

I've been with Roger into his parking garage elevator and in his car. I stay at his condo when I am in Tokyo.

As you can see, bitcoin was at $267.50 on that day they filmed this. It's $433.50 today. ( http://preev.com/btc/usd/source:bitfinex )

Most of the other people interviewed in this documentary are friends of mine too.


[youtube:383rg201]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zKuoqZLyKg[/youtube:383rg201]

[Smiles]

You decide who to listen to...
Thank you for your delicious condescension. But, trust me, it will never be you.

[cdnmatt]

Geez bruce, for someone not invested in AirBitz, you sure seem like you are.

I'll stick with what I said -- don't use AirBitz. I understand they were just trying to make things more user-friendly for people, but that's a fundamental design flaw. Would you like your credit card details encrypted, then passed around to dozens of servers, while not knowing who even owns those servers? Well, that's what AirBitz did, except it's even worse because there is no bank to call when your money gets stolen.

Again, for desktop I can recommend https://electrum.org/ -- I don't use it myself, but it is well time tested and proven, majority of my clients use it, and I've never heard of a problem. I use my own wallet software, but that's of no use to anyone here, as it's developed for merchants and requires things like a dedicated server.

For mobile, I really don't know, as it just so happens you can't buy much in Khon Kaen with bitcoin. :) I believe the most popular mobile wallet out there is https://mycelium.com/ -- I've never used it myself, don't personally know anyone who's used it, but have heard nothing but good things about it.

Smiles, I can somewhat understand the relevance. When someone's boy special they met on holiday in Thailand has their buffalo accidentally die, there's a chance they'll ask for bitcoin instead of Western Union. If it hasn't happened yet, it most likely will within the next couple years.

[cdnmatt]

You can always tell the intelligence and expertise of a person by how excited they are about the future of bitcoin and blockchain technology.

All the greatest minds on earth are *raving* about it.

No. Actually, fanatics such as yourself give bitcoin a bad name. The "great minds" as you call it actually understand the protocol, understand the long-term technical challenges the bitcoin network faces (there's quite a few), and are realistic about the possibilities. Kind of like that Asian guy in the AirBitz video you posted. He seemed pretty down to earth and intelligent. I'll still say they made a massive design flaw, but I understand why, and at least he seems to know what he's talking about.

I have no problem seeing bitcoin continuing to gain adoption, but you have to realize, this is currently a 6 year old experiment and there are some fundamental technical challenges ahead. I'm sure the core dev team will overcome them, but I'm not going to act like a little 12 year old girl cheerleader.

[Smiles]

' ... All the greatest minds on earth are *raving* about it ...
Obviously Brucie has himself in mind, but is attempting heavy-handed coy-ness, so as not to appear overly self-obsessed.


Smiles, I can somewhat understand the relevance. When someone's boy special they met on holiday in Thailand has their buffalo accidentally die, there's a chance they'll ask for bitcoin instead of Western Union. If it hasn't happened yet, it most likely will within the next couple years.
Cndmatt, I have absolutely no idea what you talking about. Perhaps leave out the overdone Thailand cliches 'boy special' and 'buffalos'] and your point may become at least halfways lucid.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[PS ... this thread, unlike the rather dreary title, is fast becoming a quite fascinating delve into human psychology.] :o)

[cdnmatt]

Cndmatt, I have absolutely no idea what you talking about. Perhaps leave out the overdone Thailand cliches 'boy special' and 'buffalos'] and your point may become at least halfways lucid.

I mentioned it already in this thread. Bitcoin has become extremely popular with prostitutes throughout North America and Europe already, so no reason to believe that isn't going to extend to Thailand in the near future, if it hasn't already. 27 million tourists come here every year, and some of them fall in love with a hooker. Then when they go home, they find themselves visiting Western Union once or twice a month.

Again, if it hasn't happened already, within the next couple years you can expect those prosititues to be asking for bitcoin instead of Western Union.

[bruce_nyc]

Matt, you admit that you've never even used a bitcoin wallet before.... and barely even know the names of any.

Mycelium and Electrum are both ancient technology and both are absolutely horrible. They are unsafe for a myriad of reasons I won't even get into. And they are crazy difficult for normal people to use.

I say that about Mycelium too, in spite of the fact that the two lead developers of Mycelium are my friends.... and one happens to be gay. But I do tell them that, to their face. They eventually acknowledge and admit that I am right. Their app cannot come close to the levels of security... *and* ease of use... of Airbitz.

By the way, "that Asian guy in the video" that you think is so "smart and knows what he's talking about".... if you had even bothered to read the description of what you were looking at.... you would realize.... the HE happens to be the genius founder and CEO of Airbitz, my friend, Paul Puey.. Yes, you're right about one thing. He is *brilliant*. He and his company are leading the way in the field of bitcoin, blockchain, and even internet security. ( Oh, and by the way, he is American. Born and raised in California. geeez )

Yes, I am a *very* enthusiastic FAN of many many businesses and technologies that I have zero personal interest in, involvement with, or gain from. I could make a list of 300 companies, services, and technologies that I love love love... and that I don't have any connecting interest in.... other than being a big fan. I love SGT. Ask Surfcrest how much he pays me to say that. I love and promote Ambiance Hotel ( tho I did much more when Marcus and Michael were there ). Ask Daniel how much he pays me to say that. I love A-Bomb. Ask Aod how much he pays me to say that. I love PaleoRobbie healthy meal delivery in Bangkok (which accepted bitcoin long before I had come along, by the way). Ask Robby how much he pays me to say that.

Also, I don't become a fan of, and promote, businesses that are owned by my friends. It's the exact opposite. If I really love a business sooooo much, I usually naturally become friends with the owner. And.... If I really don't like a business.... I won't say good things about it... even if the owner is my friend. Sorry. I tell the truth.

[bruce_nyc]

Bitcoin has become extremely popular with prostitutes throughout North America and Europe already, so no reason to believe that isn't going to extend to Thailand in the near future, if it hasn't already. 27 million tourists come here every year, and some of them fall in love with a hooker. Then when they go home, they find themselves visiting Western Union once or twice a month. Again, if it hasn't happened already, within the next couple years you can expect those prosititues to be asking for bitcoin instead of Western Union.

Finally, you say something I can agree with.

Of course, it's not only popular with prostitutes. It's also accepted by the world's largest travel company, Expedia, Microsoft, Dell, PayPal, Overstock, Wordpress, and millions more. Not to mention the millions of small and medium sized businesses that accept bitcoin too.

By the way, http://coins.ph has a new app very similar to grinr and hornet... for finding individuals very nearby wherever you are.... to exchange bitcoin for baht, or baht for bitcoin... ( or any local currency ). Very very cool.

[MiniMee]

If I really love a business sooooo much, I usually naturally become friends with the owner.... I tell the truth.

Careful Brucie, it sounds like you are starting to believe your own bullshit. But don't worry; nobody else does.

[Mancs]

Mt. Gox, Flexcoin, Poloniex, bitstamp, BTER-according to wiki all places where bitcoins were stolen, hacked, evaporated. Keep a tight hold of your digital wallet.

[bruce_nyc]

Mt. Gox, Flexcoin, Poloniex, bitstamp, BTER-according to wiki all places where bitcoins were stolen, hacked, evaporated. Keep a tight hold of your digital wallet.

Absolutely. And there are a lot more than that. Also, most of those places that claimed, "We've been hacked! So sorry." And, "Yeah! We've been hacked too!"

.....were/are lying. The owner of the website just saw a million dollars or more sitting there under his own control and he.... lost it.... and decided to steal it. So you'll see.... one after the other.... I called them copycat "We got hacked too!" scams.

This is why I am fanatical about security and loss prevention in general. In addition to my advice to never keep any money in any type of web site ( use a bitcoin exchange and get all your money back out quickly ). Users must also be protected from their own dumb mistakes too... like using one of those desktop wallets, and/or never backing it up, or backing it up incorrectly, or getting it all stolen by a virus, or the entire laptop gets stolen, etc, etc....

But always remember.... When a stagecoach gets robbed, you can't really blame the gold itself. ( You have to blame the fools who decided it was a good idea to move it on a stagecoach. )

[bruce_nyc]

By the way, if you're only going to use bitcoin for sending money internationally, then you're probably only going to keep it in the form of bitcoin for a few moments. In that case, as long as you use the safest technology ( Airbitz ), and you use a strong long extremely unique password, and you don't forget your password..... You couldn't be safer. The money will go from being $ / ┬г / тВм in your bank.... to being THB cash your bf can get out of any ATM in Thailand.... in a few moments.

My advice has always been....

If using bitcoin for sending money -- keep it in the form of bitcoin only for the few moments that that takes

If buying bitcoin as an investment -- hold onto it for a minimum of one year

( This week, for example, your net worth would have gone up by only 45.81%. But some weeks are more. Some weeks are less. My bf has the "bitcoin ticker widget" on his phone. He knows *exactly* what days are the best days to suggest going shopping. :-B )

[cdnmatt]

Mt. Gox, Flexcoin, Poloniex, bitstamp, BTER-according to wiki all places where bitcoins were stolen, hacked, evaporated. Keep a tight hold of your digital wallet.

Exactly. For anyone getting into bitcoin, 1) don't use a web wallet, and 2) you're most likely going to end up using a HD BIP32 wallet, which means you'll have a private key like this (even if you don't see it):

xprv9s21ZrQH143K2JF8RafpqtKiTbsbaxEeUaMnNHsm5o6wCW 3z8ySyH4UxFVSfZ8n7ESu7fgir8imbZKLYVBxFPND1pniTZ81v Kfd45EHKX73

Keep that private key safe, and your funds will be fine. With current technology, you can not brute force (ie. guess) that key, so as long as you keep it away from the internet as much as possible, nobody can ever touch your funds. It's really that simple.

As I tell all my clients, I can't guarantee safety, but in 2.5 years I have yet to have a dollar stolen, so have a pretty decent track record.

[bruce_nyc]

For anyone getting into bitcoin, 1) don't use a web wallet, and 2) you're most likely going to end up using a HD BIP32 wallet, which means you'll have a private key like this (even if you don't see it):

xprv9s21ZrQH143K2JF8RafpqtKiTbsbaxEeUaMnNHsm5o6wCW 3z8ySyH4UxFVSfZ8n7ESu7fgir8imbZKLYVBxFPND1pniTZ81v Kfd45EHKX73

Keep that private key safe, and your funds will be fine. With current technology, you can not brute force (ie. guess) that key, so as long as you keep it away from the internet as much as possible, nobody can ever touch your funds.

Although I *do* agree with everything you just said here.... from a factual standpoint....

The problem is.... as you well know.... Nobody here has *any* idea what you're talking about.... so what's the point? Just trying to hear yourself talk?

(1) If a user could ever get even close to seeing their own private keys... ( that long alphanumeric string you keep posting ), then whatever method they are using, IT IS NOT SAFE. A user should *never* be able to see that. And never needs to see that. You're trying to teach people how to drive by explaining the inner workings of a carburetor.... that you read out of a book. What's your point?


...as long as you keep it away from the internet as much as possible, nobody can ever touch your funds.

(2) As long as you "keep it away from the internet" 10000%. Problem is, nobody knows what you mean by that ( not even you ). This private key can never never never touch an easily compromised laptop or desktop computer, for example. It can certainly never be passed via an easily compromised USB device of any kind.

Your private keys should either remain encrypted and offline completely ( on paper, for example)..... or they should exist *only* in the secure memory of a secure device ( Android or iPhone ) and never ever leave that device unencrypted.

Unfortunately, the apps you've recommended don't meet these minimal security requirements. They also don't have any automatic encrypted backup function. So it's very easy to lose your money in a variety of ways.... with them.

Those apps are designed for bitcoin engineers and technologists who don't need to be told the basics of security. It is *assumed* that they already know better than to run them on any type of compromised computer with any type of an Internet connection. It's also assumed that they don't need to be told to encrypt their wallet on their own, and back it up off-site, on their own. However, even some of the most famous bitcoin developers themselves have made huge mistakes. ( Members of the core team, without mentioning any names, have made "stupid" mistakes and lost *thousands* of bitcoin. For example, one guy encrypted his wallet.dat file and then stupidly copied it to his Dropbox for backup. Of course, he lost everything. )

That's the beauty of Airbitz. All the most intelligent "security best practices" are built in by design. It's all automatic. The user doesn't have to do anything. It even protects the user from himself --- from making any of those stupid mistakes on his own. And they made it as easy to use as any normal banking app.... even easier, in fact.

[cdnmatt]

The problem is.... as you well know.... Nobody here has *any* idea what you're talking about.... so what's the point? Just trying to hear yourself talk?

Because I'm trying to dumb it down for people. You can think of that private key I posted above as a credit card number, except more important, because if / when your funds get stolen there is no bank to call. AirBitz is encrypting that key, and passing it around to a P2P network when they don't even know who the owners of the nodes are, which is a massive design flaw.


(2) As long as you "keep it away from the internet" 10000%. Problem is, nobody knows what you mean by that ( not even you ).

I know exactly what I'm talking about. I've even developed an offline signing app in Python which is open sourced.

And I don't really care... I'm going to go continue my search for Kim. I don't know why, but I haven't been able to stop thinking about him for the past month. I know he's in Bangkok now, but that's all I know.

[bruce_nyc]

PS -- Saying "HD BIP32" is redundant. It's like calling them, "those gay homosexuals". Both terms mean the same thing.

Also, you don't need to be using an HD wallet to have a private key. Every bitcoin, since the beginning of bitcoin, ( years before HD wallets were invented ), has a private key. It's one of the most basic elements of the bitcoin network.

But again, users don't *need* to understand that the rod to stroke ratio (R/S) is the center-to-center length of the conrod divided by the stroke. ......in order to safely drive their Toyota to the mall. That sort of talk is intentional gobbledygook to an audience of normal people.

[bruce_nyc]

I hope you find Kim. He shouldn't be that difficult to find. Through former friends? Former coworkers?

[bruce_nyc]

I've even developed an offline signing app in Python which is open sourced.

If you're interested in offline signing, you might be interested in taking a look at the open source app one of my friends here in Bangkok developed. I gave him the structure and design input. We met every week. And he coded it.

It uses script key stretching to make a brain wallet that you can memorize, yet that actually cannot be brute forced. It's pretty cool.

Take a look at it here: http://easy-btc.org

[bruce_nyc]

Also, merchants and shop owners can easily use this tool to give to every waiter and cashier.... so they can receive payments only.... directly into the shop owner's Airbitz Wallet..... ( even if the owner is in Tahiti ).

With this, they can Receive payments only. Nothing else.

http://easy-btc.org/#receive

The owner can designate one bitcoin address for receiving payments on http://onename.com and assign it to a handle.

For example, this one: https://onename.com/eatmerestaurant is the bitcoin address for Eat Me ( a gay owned restaurant I love! in Bangkok http://eatmerestaurant.com )

So now, any waiter, cashier, anyone can go to http://easy-btc.org/#receive and enter "eatmerestaurant" on the "adresss" line. ( The photo confirms that you have the correct address ) ....and enter the amount in Thai Baht.... or any world currency.

This allows the waiters and cashiers to receive the correct amount at any time.... but only receive. They cannot spend. They cannot even check the balance.

All they have to do is show this qr code to the customer to pay....

:)

[cdnmatt]

I hope you find Kim. He shouldn't be that difficult to find. Through former friends? Former coworkers?

Me too. He was an asshole, but an asshole who genuinely loved me.

[cdnmatt]

Got him! Or I should later today at least.

Now whether or not he misses / loves me is another question.

[Nirish guy]

Perhaps you maybe want to go back and re read a few of your old posts and just remind yourself of the not so joyous time you had when with him before allowing the rose tinted glasses of love and lust to cloud your vision once more ?

By all ( of your own) accounts he treated you like shit, used you and physically threatened you - do you REALLY need all that drama back in your life, when we break up with someone it's usually for a very good reason and I'm guessing that reason still exists where Kim is concerned and surely in the whole of Thailand you can find a nice guy who won't do all the things I've already mentioned and that you have already told us and many others about before to you again just because you're feeling a little lovesick about what "might have been" - but WASN'T.

Find a nice guy, move on and don't look back ( in life ever) is my advice ( that you didn't ask for !) but of course once you post to a / the board then you're sort of opening yourself up for others opinions whether you like the answers you get back or not I guess.

Either way, no matter how things end up chok dee and all the nest with it and I just hope that history doesn't repeat itself for you.

[cdnmatt]

I only posted about the bad things regarding Kim. I'm not Mr. Perfect either, and although he was an asshole, he did genuinely love me. Plus it's been over 2 years, so there's a chance he's matured enough by now to be capable of a proper relationship. As long as he can adhere to a couple simple rules, he's taken care of for the rest of his life. For example, no partying in the house -- if you want to party, go into town somewhere and do it.

And yes, I want him. It's not about lust. Sex is a Line message away. I keep meeting various guys, and have yet to find someone I can see myself actually loving day-in day-out. However, I can see myself doing that with Kim.

I don't know though. My old next door neighbor still hasn't gotten back to me. I guess one of Kim's ladyboy friends opened a beauty salon here in town somewhere, and she said she was going to visit her today to get Kim's phone# for me. Haven't heard back though, so no idea. Thinking about that, I'll drop her a message.

I'll find him somehow.

Besides, more than likely he's already in a relationship and will just tell me to go fuck myself for abandoning him.

[Nirish guy]

I keep meeting various guys, and have yet to find someone I can see myself actually loving day-in day-out"

I think if it was me I'd definitely keep looking just ! Anyway, like I said best of luck either way, I think you're nuts but who knows perhaps history won't repeat itself this time and his two years away from you will have made him realise just how much he loves you after all and this time things will all be different once you invest some more time and money on him to win him back and then he moves back in with you again - there, that's what you needed this time right......even if deep down you don't really believe it yourself either. Oh well, like I said ( genuinely) the best of luck with it and lets hope I'm wrong.

[cdnmatt]

I've only ever loved two people in my life (outside of my family). One is my ex-husband, and the other is Kim.

I don't get a choice about who I love. Love is just one of those things that happens.

I'm 34 now, and it takes about 2 years of living with someone to get to know them inside and out. I really don't feel like going through that process with someone new. Kim and myself already know each other.

More than likely, it's nothing though. Again, he's probably already in a relationship in Bangkok living a good life, and will tell me to go fuck myself. Who knows. I will eventually get his phone# and find out though.

[bruce_nyc]

I can relate. ( to what *both* of you are saying )

My ex from New York finally called me one week ago, after refusing to even speak to me for a few years. What a shock! We had been together 18.5 years. All those ( good / love ) feelings come flooding back.... immediately followed by pangs of guilt.... "Did I abandon him?"

Sometimes it's not easy to keep a clear perspective on a relationship. While you're going through the break up....., you can only think about the bad things. Then years later... Looking at it a few years later in hindsight and nostalgia, you can only think about, and remember, the good things. That's natural. Our hearts and minds deceive us.

While what you say is true..... We don't get to choose who we fall in love with ( to some extent ).

It's even worse than that.

We don't get to choose who falls in love with us. Nor even.... How *much* someone may or may not fall in love with us.

So don't mistake *you* loving *him*...... for.... *him* loving *you*.... even if it seems like the same thing. It's not.

Not to mention.... His / our feelings change and evolve over time.

Be careful. Don't get your heart broken. Again.

It's also *very* possible to.... "Love someone from a distance." That's what I know I must do with my ex. I tell him I love him. But I know that I must keep a certain amount of distance between us ( for example, I could never live with him again ) in order to protect *myself*.

About meeting a new guy you could spend your life with.... It's a simple numbers game. The more guys you meet and get to know.... the better the chance you'll meet an amazing one..... or two... So meet six new guys a week.

When I came to Thailand in 2006, I met an amazing guy within 1 week. So I had 2 boyfriends. Six months later I met another amazing guy. Then I had 3 boyfriends. Then the 1st Thai guy broke up with me out of jealousy. ( the one I saw at A Bomb the other day ) Then only 3 weeks later, I met another amazing Thai guy. Then I was back to 3 boyfriends. Then my bf in New York and I mutually ended things... after 19 years. Then I had only 2 boyfriends. We all 3 lived together for about 1.5 years. Then the last one began to get more and more jealous. And then finally I caught the other one using drugs. He was so ashamed, he disappeared from my life. Then I had only 1 boyfriend..... until today. We're both very much in love and we make each other very happy.

But love is truly unlimited. When one relationship ends, for whatever reason, there's always another one waiting to find you. Like magic.

[cdnmatt]

So don't mistake *you* loving *him*...... for.... *him* loving *you*.... even if it seems like the same thing. It's not.

No, he actually did love me. I know this because we were poor as dirt during a good portion of our relationship, and he still stuck by my side. Now I'm no longer poor, so that may help alleviate some issues.

Got his phone# now though. Hasn't read any of the Line messages I sent yet, but hopefully will tomorrow. Who knows if the phone# I got is even active. Definitely him though. Much whiter than I remember, so he definitely lives in Bangkok, lol. Aged a fair bit, which is good. Still working morlam apparently.

Who knows.

[bruce_nyc]

I don't doubt that he loved you....

The questions are:

How much? ....and....

How about now / still ?

But never stress about those things. If it's meant to be...... In other words, if you're meant to "love him from a distance", so be it. If you're meant to love him "close up", so be it.... as long as that's cool with both of you.

Nobody can stop you from loving someone..... even if it's "from a distance".

I've learned some of my most profound lessons from boyfriends.

First, was a joke....

Once, over breakfast, I asked my first Thai boyfriend... "How much do you love me?" He replied, "How much do you have?" :-*

Ha ha ha ( Ever heard the expression, Things said jokingly are meant seriously... )

I once asked my second Thai boyfriend, "If I was poor and had no money at all, would you still have chosen me to be your boyfriend?" He replied, "If I were fat, ugly, and feminine, would you have still chosen me to be your boyfriend?"

There is a lot of honesty and wisdom there in those two answers. There's nothing wrong with any of it. But keep it all in perspective. Going to "Paris" at Epcot Center in Disney World... isn't *really* Paris. ( .....not that it couldn't lead to a trip to the real Paris one day. :) )

( There. I brought it back to money. Are we back on topic now? ) :p

[Nirish guy]

Are we back on topic now?

That all depends, are you paying for your trip to Paris with real money or insisting on using more of those dodgy bloody Bitcoin things !!! :-)

[cdnmatt]

I don't doubt that he loved you....

The questions are:

How much?[/quote]

Enough to stick by my side while I was poor as shit. That's probably the biggest thing I miss about him. He wasn't materialistic in the slightest. He just didn't care.


IHow about now / still ?

Fucked if I know -- that's why I'm trying to get ahold of him. Whether or not he'd like a relationship with me, who knows. I'm pretty confident he'd be up for it though. At the very least, I'm sure he'd love to talk to me again. You don't spend 3.5 years of your life with someone, then just forget about them.

I have a phone# for him now, but the Line messages I sent are still unread. I'm not sure if this is his active phone#, or if he has a new one already, etc. The phone# I got is definitely him though, as I can see his Line profile pics.

One is my ex-husband ...I'm so pleased for you to hear that the divorce has finally come through.

[cdnmatt]

One is my ex-husband ...I'm so pleased for you to hear that the divorce has finally come through.

I'm in Thailand, he's in Budapest, the marriage is in British Columbia, Canada, so I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter. Besides, I only ever hear from him via e-mail once every 2 - 3 months when he tells me how much he thinks about and misses me.

He's almost a bigger asshole than Kim was.

Line messages still unread, so quite obviously I got an old phone#. It's definitely him, but I don't think he's using that # any more.

[bruce_nyc]

If it is a legal marriage..... then it *will* matter..... next time you want to get legally married.

[Nirish guy]

Just as well you're going to marry Kim now once you find him as of course being Thailand you won't actually be married anyway even if you do ! ( sometimes Thai law isn't such a bad thing maybe ! :)

[cdnmatt]

We'll worry about that if/when it comes. I'm sure I can get him to sign the papers now if I wanted. Before he refused, because he was worried about losing his permanent residency status. He's now officially pissed that away, because Canadian law stipulates permanent residents must reside within Canada 2 years out of every 5, and he hasn't done that.

Another thing that pisses me off. If I ever fall in love with someone decent, it's very unlikely I'll be able to bring them back to Canada. I'm pretty sure the Canadian government will only grant me one spousal sponsorship in this lifetime.

[bruce_nyc]

I doubt that that's true. In the USA there is no specific limit on how many times you can get legally married and bring your foreign spouse to the US for permanent residency.

However, you *must* be single or divorced to get married again.... obviously.... which was my point.

I'd get to work on getting the marriage annulled or divorce finalized now.... before you need to be single. Otherwise, when the time comes you want to bring a guy to Canada, it might take a very very long time to get it all done. Not to mention, having to explain to Immigration Officers why you have remained married for so long when there was no relationship.

[Nirish guy]

you could always fall in love with a Canadian ....although I'm hearing they can be very demanding and put their pets first and are very selfish that way and stuff, I'm not sure where I heard that, i think I read it somewhere on the internet perhaps ! ? :-) ( joke :-)

[bruce_nyc]

If you read it on the internet..... then it *must* be true..... ;)

[Nirish guy]

See, whilst I'm all for marriage equality etc this is SO why I've told my BF he can fuck right off that I'll not be getting married anytime soon / if ever as my god what a lot of drama and paperwork just to continue fucking the same person that you're already fucking !

[Nirish guy]

he he and we're SO right back on topic too now ......."Alternatives to Western Union" - yes - a Thai Union - as it means fuck all legally which is GREAT depending on your needs ! :-)

[bruce_nyc]

Exactly! If it weren't for the *lack* of freedom in mobility and travel.... we would never need to get married legally. Just for immigration rights.... we are forced to get married legally. If my bf were an American, I would never marry him legally in a million years. The government has no business *licensing* personal relationships at all in the first place.

[cdnmatt]

I doubt that that's true. In the USA there is no specific limit on how many times you can get legally married and bring your foreign spouse to the US for permanent residency.

Have you ever been through it? For us at least, it took about 18 months, $8000 (we had a good lawyer), and about 6 inches of paperwork. Initial application was about 4 inches thick, and during the process we sent in two more sets of documentation about 1 inch thick each. Didn't get interviewed though.

People love to bitch and complain about how Canada just let's everyone in, but no, that's not actually true. It's actually quite difficult to get into Canada.

Well, unless you're Syrian, then you get a free pass, which is really fucken cool in my opinion. I'm glad Harper is out of power.

[youtube:22sat86j]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e48U2pmc8Do[/youtube:22sat86j]

[bruce_nyc]

Yes. I've been through it with many of my friends over the years.... And now, as you might have read here in this forum, I am going through the final stages of it with my bf now. We will probably be in New York by about this time next month.... getting married.... and then immediately getting his green card.

Yes, I've never seen so much paperwork for a single "transaction" in my life. I've bought and sold plenty of homes, condos, etc... but nothing like this. The pre-nup alone was 150+ pages.... and every single page had to be signed by both of us.... and *five* copies of it.... We thought our hands would fall off from signing papers all day.

We're flying to Yangon tomorrow.... just to get more documents that they need... from the government there. We also have to have about a hundred photos of us together, printed on paper the old fashioned way.... plus letters from dozens of friends and acquaintances who can attest to our relationship, etc., etc., etc...

We've been working on this visa process for almost 2 years now too.

[Nirish guy]

I can vouch for what you've just said there Matt as my marketing manager told me over a year and a half ago that he was leaving to emigrate to Canada. He has relatives there and already owns a house there ( left to him by a rich Canadian Aunt who died hence him moving there in the first place). He's VERY well qualified, has quote a bit of money in the bank and I've no doubt will be a model citizen but (thankfully for me) due to your strict immigration rules he's STILL employed by me here as his Visa is taking forever and he's still not even sure that he's getting one yet even ! Amazingly he said he even had to go and sit an English exam here as part of his application ( he's a native English speaker! ) which he said was tougher than many that he sat while in College ( and he's educated to degree level !) and still he's having to now wait now until his "score" gets high enough to get a visa granted ( or not) - and his application has been going on for almost two years ago now !

[Nirish guy]

"The pre-nup alone was 150+ pages"

Holy shit - I'd only need the one page - which would state clearly and in black ink "You're getting FUCK ALL" - now, sign here or don't !

[bruce_nyc]

LOL Unfortunately that would be a waste of paper and ink.... because it won't hold up in court. You cannot say, "He gets nothing."

[Nirish guy]

Oh no, I'm betting a Belfast ( kangaroo ) Court could soon help you uphold that document - i.e. two men standing behind him complete with Balaclava masks on and each holding a pistol, I'm guessing that would make the courts decision VERY clear ! -See, it's not only the Thai's that can play dirty when money is at stake ! :-)

* I AM joking by the way before anyone thinks otherwise - well, probably :-)

[cdnmatt]

Amazingly he said he even had to go and sit an English exam here as part of his application ( he's a native English speaker! ) which he said was tougher than many that he sat while in College ( and he's educated to degree level !) and still he's having to now wait now until his "score" gets high enough to get a visa granted ( or not) - and his application has been going on for almost two years ago now !

I'm assuming he's applying under the "Skilled Worker" program? Then yeah, an English exam would make sense. Honestly, I don't know anything about the skilled worker application process.

I do know about the spousal sponsorship process though, and that's definitely not as easy as someone would think. They want DEFINITE proof the relationship is genuine. That's why it took 18 months, and a couple extra sets of documentation. We had to keep sending in date stamped photos, letters from people, e-mails, birthday cards, lease agreements, and all that type of shit, just to prove that yes, we do actually live together and our relationship is genuine.

That's actually the whole reason we moved to Europe. If you apply within Canada and get declined, there is no right to appeal, and you just get your deportation notice. Apply outside of Canada and get declined though, then you have the right to appeal. We thankfully didn't need it, and got approved without even an interview, but at least the option was available to us.

I very highly doubt I'd be able to get a Thai into Canada for PR status. What am I going to do? Show them my bitcoin wallet for proof of finances? Especially since I've already had one spousal sponsorship approved, and he pissed it away. I doubt I'm getting a second one.

Not the end of the world though. In Thailand, you can just buy immigration status -- 500,000 baht every 5 years, lol. And I wouldn't have a problem living here the rest of my life. Summers are a little too hot for my liking, but that's about it. Weather is excellent now. Everyone else is freezing and thinks it's cold it -- it's about +20C at night. If they think that's cold, they should really try out a Canadian winter at -40C. :)

[cdnmatt]

Ok, found him.

Let's just say he seems a little less than thrilled with me, so that idea is out the window.

Damn, and here I was hoping he would have matured by now, but obviously not. If I ever met him again, I think I'd end up with a knife in my neck, so we'll just leave that be.

Back to work.

[Brad the Impala]

Errr. He doesn't want to reunite with you so that makes him immature......

[cdnmatt]

Errr. He doesn't want to reunite with you so that makes him immature......

No, the fact that he sounds as though he's willing to murder me if he sees me again makes him immature. His words were a little less than cordial.

It was 2am though, so I'm assuming he was just drunk.

What the hell. Before, he was willing to basically murder a black market lottery agent in his mom's village over 7000 baht. Apparently, he hasn't matured past that yet.

I can understand his hatred, and it's fine. After all, I did basically straight up abandon him. I did give him a generous severance, but completely disappeared with no means of contact. It's been over 2 years, so I thought he has probably grown up by now, but I guess not. Oh well, shit happens, life goes on.

[Nirish guy]

I seem to recall you were fairly sure that if he could have found you that he WOULD have murdered you when you last broke up - what is it they say about insanity being when you do the same thing and expect a different outcome ? Oh well, at least now you know, better to enable you to move on now - and just hope you haven't opened a can of worms that would have been better being left closed perhaps ! :-(

[bruce_nyc]

People Don't Change.

( or if/when they do, they change very very very very little )

Their true character doesn't change. That is formed as a child growing up.

[cdnmatt]

Of course people change. Are you the same person you were 10 or 20 years ago? I know I'm not.

But doesn't look like it matters any more, so who gives a shit.

I honestly don't even know if that was him, but assuming it was. I put out the word, and assuming he looked me up. Nobody else in this country would be have that much hatred towards me. And honestly, that hatred is warranted. Decent chance he went to hell and back after I broke up with him, so can't blame him.

[bruce_nyc]

I am the same person I was 30 years ago. I've learned a lot since then. I'm wiser. But most definitely, at my core, I am the same good person with the same good values I was 30 years ago.

And so are you.

[cdnmatt]

Yes, the core inherint values stay the same, but as you said, we become wiser as we age.

I don't have a problem with his core values. That's the whole reason I fell in love with him. He has a lot of pent up anger in him, and grew up at an early age, same as me. Since he was about 10 or 11 I think, he was the man of the house. I don't know exactly when his parents split up, but he grew up young.

Again, none of this matters any more anyway. I searched, I found, I basically got told to go fuck myself. End of story.

I'm surprised (and I'm not alone) why the Bitcoin posts haven't found their own thread, courtesy of an effective Moderator

As I remarked, many posts ago
Bitcoin is merely one of the emerging ways of transacting which rely on Blockchain which will revolutionise aspects of banking. However its value to the ordinary punter (ie. those of us who don't deal drugs or kiddy porn) is probably limited for the time being
Money is generally accepted to be a store of value, a medium of exchange and the unit of account. Most of the posts here have had Matt asserted that as a medium of exchange Bitcoin is THE future (and Bruce agrees); not only that, Matt believes so much that it is a store of value that he is hording Bitcoins. Meanwhile bucknaway believes that it's such a miniscule unit of account that he has a few jingling in his pockets as he saunters down the street, no doubt sporting The Look.

However Bitcoin was merely the first embodiment of the Blockchain technology - and first-movers don't always last, especially in technology. Remember Sony and betamax? Machine code, Fortran and Cobol?

The latest edition of Wired magazine has a long article (http://www.wired.com/2015/12/big-tech-joins-big-banks-to-create-alternative-to-bitcoins-blockchain/) saying
Several major companies from across both the technology and financial industriesтАФincluding IBM, Intel, and Cisco as well as the London Stock Exchange Group and big-name banks JP Morgan, Wells Fargo, and State StreetтАФhave joined forces to create an alternative to the blockchain, the global online ledger that underpins the bitcoin digital currency.

Overseen by the not-for-profit Linux Foundation, this open source project aims to build blockchain-like technology that can bring a new level of automation and transparency to a wide range of services in the business world, including stock exchanges and other financial markets.
I'd be pinning my hopes (and fortune) and something backed by those companies and Linux Foundation rather than on a first-mover whose founder wants desperately to retain his anonymity.

[bruce_nyc]

Blockchain is to Bitcoin..... as the internal combustion engine is to the automobile.

Anyone, including you or I........ or the US military and God combined...... can make a new blockchain.

But Bitcoin is POWERED BY the bitcoin blockchain.

The bitcoin network is now more powerful than the top 30 supercomputers in the entire world..... *combined*.

Good luck "competing" with that.

This announcement by JP Morgan and company... sounds like a press release from the National Typewriter Manufacturers Association saying, "We're about to develop a brand new model of typewriter that will compete with the word processor."

Oh.... and in the past 3 months, my net worth doubled again. So... there's that.

They're a day late and a dollar short. They've gotten caught with their pants down. And they're terrified of being considered obsolete overnight.... literally.

So far, over $1 Billion has been invested in Bitcoin Blockchain infrastructure and supporting technologies. Super smart people clearly see that bitcoin is the future..... and they've been investing millions and millions of dollars in venture capital into building the entire ecosystem supporting bitcoin. See http://cointelegraph.com/news/115595/1- ... astructure (http://cointelegraph.com/news/115595/1-billion-invested-so-far-in-bitcoin-blockchain-infrastructure)

Oh. And in the past 3 months.... my net worth doubled again. So.... there's that. :-B

( not only mine, of course, but everyone in the world that's invested in bitcoin )

What other investment has gone up 206819% in only 5 years? ( 2,068 times its original value )

Any? In the history of mankind?

[cdnmatt]

I'd be pinning my hopes (and fortune) and something backed by those companies and Linux Foundation rather than on a first-mover whose founder wants desperately to retain his anonymity.

Wouldn't hold your breath. The entire point of bitcoin is to remove banks and the government from the equation, so JP Morgan starting up their own crypto-currency probably wouldn't be received too well. That, and there's simply too much infrastructure and companies built around bitcoin now for it to fail, or for anyone to compete with it.

Media and companies alike love to talk about "blockchain technology", but that doesn't even make sense. It's just a P2P network (remember Napster?) that passes a bunch of messages around using 3 different encryption algorithms. However, people have decided those messages are worth a fair bit of money. Plus people love to talk about all the "possibilities" of the blockchain, but no, it's purely a financial network. You can now store 40 bytes of additional information with each transaction, but that's as far as it goes, and there's zero chance that limit will be getting changed any time soon -- the blockchain is already large enough and keeping it as small as possible is a huge debate at the moment.

You can start your own crypto-currency any time you'd like though. There's thousands of them, and I think it only costs about $30 to get a developer to make you your own blockchain for you. Have fun getting any traction though. Competing with bitcoin would be the equivalent of a new search engine competing with Google. Many have tried, and they all failed.

[bruce_nyc]

I'd be pinning my hopes (and fortune) and something backed by those companies and Linux Foundation rather than on a first-mover whose founder wants desperately to retain his anonymity.

Wouldn't hold your breath. The entire point of bitcoin is to remove banks and the government from the equation, so JP Morgan starting up their own crypto-currency probably wouldn't be received too well. That, and there's simply too much infrastructure and companies built around bitcoin now for it to fail, or for anyone to compete with it.

Media and companies alike love to talk about "blockchain technology", but that doesn't even make sense. It's just a P2P network (remember Napster?) that passes a bunch of messages around using 3 different encryption algorithms. However, people have decided those messages are worth a fair bit of money. Plus people love to talk about all the "possibilities" of the blockchain, but no, it's purely a financial network. You can now store 40 bytes of additional information with each transaction, but that's as far as it goes, and there's zero chance that limit will be getting changed any time soon -- the blockchain is already large enough and keeping it as small as possible is a huge debate at the moment.

You can start your own crypto-currency any time you'd like though. There's thousands of them, and I think it only costs about $30 to get a developer to make you your own blockchain for you. Have fun getting any traction though. Competing with bitcoin would be the equivalent of a new search engine competing with Google. Many have tried, and they all failed.

I agree with your major sentiments. However, as the saying goes, God is in the details. And most of your details are incorrect. :)

The first paragraph is very correct.

The second paragraph is so untrue.... factually incorrect.... I don't know where to begin.

Omg. :-s Blockchain technology is the biggest breakthrough technology since the invention of the electronic *computer*.... yeah, the first computer in the world...... and the invention of the *internet* itself.....

There is a reason why all the media talk about it so much. The reason is because they are interviewing experts. And that's all the experts are raving about. Why? Because they are experts.

Blockchain technology does NOT even use any encryptionat all. Lord...... Where to start.

Blockchain technology uses recursive cryptographically signed transactions.... *signed* *cryptographically* and done *recursively*..... in a *chain* of *blocks* of transactions. Thus, the name, Block Chain. It uses Zero encryption. The chain is spread far and wide on an uncensorable p2p network ( similar to bittorrent; still going on stronger than ever before; still unstoppable by any government in the world ), tho it uses its own network, obviously.

The breakthrough in the history of the world is that we now have an *absolutely* *irrefutable* record, or log, or ledger. The most powerful organizations in the world --- in a combined effort --- cannot alter it. This tech, *obviously*, is already being used to record everything from land and real estate ownership.... to votes in elections.... to ownership of shares of stocks and other assets... to actual detailed *smart* contracts which are *self-enforcing* !! This is not a prediction. There are now thousands of companies already doing this. Many of the founders are among my friends. Google the word, ethereum for just one example of the world changing while you were napping. See https://www.ethereum.org

That "40 bytes of additional information with each transaction" you mentioned is completely irrelevant. First, the amount of data that can be attached to any transaction is unlimited. We now simply store any data in a separate p2p network and store only the hash of that data in the actual bitcoin transaction itself. Thus, someone can store 1 million terabytes of additional data within one bitcoin transaction if they want to.

Also, the recent debate about how to increase the block size has nothing to do with storing more data per transaction. It's about storing more transactions per block. This is absolutely essential and absolutely everyone agrees that it *will* happen.... because usage of bitcoin is growing so much so quickly. There is zero debate that this *will* happen. The only debate is about the exact method of implementing the block size increase. This block size increase *will* happen within the next 12 months, guaranteed.

This increase in the size of each individual block..... also has absolutely *nothing* to do with the overall size of the entire blockchain. The overall size of the entire blockchain is irrelevant at this point. We now use abbreviated indexes.... you can think of them as periodic "ledger summary" records. This way, the entire blockchain doesn't need to be loaded or read by apps. It only needs to be read, and summarized, by a server. But there's still never any fear of mistakes... because the "miners" ( the computers which process transactions ) *always* use the entire blockchain. Thus, transactions cannot happen unless they are valid. So, nobody is concerned about the overall size of the blockchain in full.... and they never will be. As it increases in size, storage capacity increases faster. And it's still a quite tiny file size... considering what it does.

Your last paragraph is generally correct. Except that if you pay a clone-bot to create your own altcoin for $75, it won't work. And it won't be a secure network. ( I can explain all the reasons why, if you care to know. ) To create an alternate blockchain crypto-currency, you'd need to pay an expert at least $2000. Alternatively, you could create a colored coin altcoin ( which piggybacks on top of the normal bitcoin blockchain ) for free or for a tiny tiny expense. ( Happy to teach people how to do that as well, if people are interested. )

[bruce_nyc]

Bitcoin's Future Shape: between $13,000 and $120k per bitcoin - BTCUSD TradingView
https://www.tradingview.com/chart/BTCUS ... -and-120k/ (https://www.tradingview.com/chart/BTCUSD/P8X2S1MW-Bitcoin-s-Future-Shape-13000-and-120k/)

Price Today: http://preev.com

Do you remember what the price was yesterday? :p

[cdnmatt]

Bitcoin is hardly the first P2P network ever invented, so it's not new technology. It just got repurposed for financial transactions. All it is is just a bunch of small messages being passed around, and getting stored on everyone's computer / server that's running a full node.

Yes, it does use encryption, specifically SHA512, RIPEMD160, and ECC secp256k1 curve. All three of those algorithims needs to be broken in order to "break bitcoin", which isn't going to happen any time soon. It also uses BASE58 encoding, but that's not encryption. If you'd like, you can learn all about the protocol here -- https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification

No, the data is not unlimited. Aside from the actual transaction details itself (inputs, outputs, etc.) the limit for additional data is 40 bytes per-transaction by using OP_RETURN. You can not add more arbitrary data than that, as miners won't confirm the transaction if you do. Those data storage sites add a small hash to the transaction keeping it within the 40 byte limit, then add additional data in-house on their own system(s) associated with that hash.

Ethereum has not realistic use. Loads of people love to talk about "smart contracts", but there is no actual realistic use case for them from what I can tell. Besides, it's been years and they still haven't even done anything much with it. I don't understand what you'd use it for. So when you're signing a business contract, you have to hire both a lawyer and Python developer now? Your average Joe can't use Ethereum.

Yes, the size of the blockchain very much matters. It's already at the point now where Bitcoin Core is only really for merchants who have a dedicated server, as installing Bitcoin Core on your average desktop / laptop is quite the resource hog and takes about 2 or 3 days to download the entire blockchain. That's why it's such a heated debate. If the blockchain gets too bloated, full nodes will continue to drop off the network (already happening), and only people with a good amount of resources will be capable of running full nodes, opening the door to the possibility of centralization sometime in the future. Granted, there's SPV nodes and a chance of the lightening network coming in the future, but full nodes are required to keep the bitcoin network running.

Yes, it's very cheap to get your own alt-coin and blockchain. Just view the Services section of bitcointalk.org and there's always people offering alt-coin creation services for small amounts like 0.01 BTC. All you do is download a copy of the Bitcoin Core source code from Github, change a few variables like the port# and address prefixes, and voila, you have your own coin.

[bruce_nyc]

Omg. I'm not even going to reply to that. Other than to say, Nearly everything you just said is NOT true.

It seems as though you're not *intentionally* trying to mislead people... It's just that you are very very very confused about how all these things work.

Implying that the Bitcoin network is "just another P2P network".... is like calling an Airbus A350.... "just another object that flies.... just another kite.... a kite that we all decided to ride on."

Total utter nonsense. Not worthy of a response.

Look up in a Websters dictionary the difference between the words, "encryption" and "cryptography". Both words contain similar letters. But I assure you, they are *very* different things. The bitcoin network and bitcoin protocol use ZERO encryption. Geez. Use google.com man.... ( Side note: Ambien and Ambiance are also not the same thing. #:-s )

I'm not even going to touch on your total ignorance of the meaning of what a "smart contract" is.... much less what they are used for. Other than to say: They have absolutely *nothing* to do with attorneys *nor* bloody Python. omg :-s

And if anyone were to, "take a copy of bitcoin core and change a few variables", .... they would end up with a totally insecure and hackable blockchain network. Know why? No. I didn't think so.

Ok. I've wasted enough time trying to educate one person who obviously doesn't want to be educated. Time to ignore any more.

If anyone *else* has questions..... I'm happy to help and answer them.

Now I am going to try out the board's Ignore feature for the first time. I won't be able to see anything Matt says from this point forward.... But... I would strongly warn anyone to not believe, and not take at face value, anything Matt says about Bitcoin. Better to ask me, or use google search for yourself.

Just because people say all kinds of crap on the Internet, doesn't make it true. Especially ads advertising services for a fee.... on a forum like bitcointalk. omg

Follow what the *real* experts in the field say..... not including me.... Google and follow everything people like.....

Andreas M. Antonopolous,
Gavin Andresen, and
Jeff Garzik

....say.

[Old git]

Bruce,

As a veteran of the ups and downs of speculative investments over the past four decades, your enthusiasm is both understandable and familiar.

For you it is also very dangerous, financially..

Do you have a clear idea as to the price level at which you would liquidate your position?

You probably do. The hazard is that when investors who are heavily fixated on one product achieve their price ambitions, they become so confident that king Midas is smiling upon them that they change the plan and set a higher goal. They become over-confident.

And when the price eventually goes south, they struggle to accept that their golden goose is past it's eat by date, and convince themselves that the downturn is a buying opportunity, often levering themselves with borrowed cash, secured on their homes - which they end up losing..

By all means have a flutter on Bitcoin, but keep your investments widely spread, and don't bet a cent more than you can afford to lose..

[bruce_nyc]

Great advice in general.

Remember tho, bitcoin is not a stock and has nothing in common with stock ownership.

Also.... I can't "afford to lose" one cent. ;)

[Smiles]

Nearly everything you just said is NOT true. . . . Now I am going to try out the board's Ignore feature for the first time. I won't be able to see anything Matt says from this point forward.... But... I would strongly warn anyone to not believe, and not take at face value, anything Matt says about Bitcoin. Better to ask me, or use google search for yourself.
There was another egotistical maniac on this board some time ago named 'Ikarus' who, oddly enough, sounds very much like you: same use of bolding to finally announce to the entire world that you will not waste your oh so very precious time on a debater who, strangely enough, has differing opinions than yourself. And thus, as he did often, he cried once and for all, for all to know, that he had no more time for such a plebeian ... and so, sayonara.
He also considered himself to be a financial guru of the highest order.

I have no idea whether you are he - dressed as Bruce_NYC ... but the childlike picking up one's scattered toys is remarkably the same.

[bruce_nyc]

I've used only one handle here..... ever, and everyone knows who I am. I've met a quarter of the active users here in person.... and I've offered to meet all the rest. I have no need whatsoever for a fake persona.... unlike many others apparently.

Also, I most certainly do not consider myself any kind of a financial guru. Those are your words..... Most definitely not mine. I am not a financial guru and I don't give financial advice. The only thing I do occasionally is describe my own strategies. But that should never be construed by anyone to be advice.

Also, I haven't picked up my toys and gone anywhere. I'm still here.... and happy to answer questions.

But, yes, I do refuse to help Matt any more because if he's too lazy to even google what he's claiming to be a expert on.... and posting *incorrect* information for all to read.... then denying the truth when it's presented to him.... It is obviously a *grand* waste of time ---- for him, for me, and for all of you.

There is absolutely nothing wrong or childish about refusing to engage with such a person. In fact, it's probably the most mature thing any adult can do.

The only reason I stated it publicly is: (1) So people won't wonder why I've stopped responding to his inane nonsense messages. And.... (2) To make it very clear that I do not endorse any advice or information coming from him. That's all.

I've never placed anyone else on ignore..... no matter how annoying and irrelevant and childish their posts are.

[Old git]

Remember tho, bitcoin is not a stock and has nothing in common with stock ownership.

I wasn't just referring to stocks - people speculate on all manner of things, from gold to fine wines, and it is clear that your interest in holding Bitcoin is driven by speculation - to make an easy profit - rather than an altruistic desire to create the perfect vehicle for monetary transactions.


Also.... I can't "afford to lose" one cent

In which event, stop holding Bitcoin and stick to helping others avoid getting fleeced by cyber-hoodlums..

[bruce_nyc]

....and it is clear that your interest in holding Bitcoin is driven by speculation - to make an easy profit - rather than an altruistic desire to create the perfect vehicle for monetary transactions.

It is both. And it serves both purposes *exceedingly* well.


...stop holding Bitcoin and stick to helping others avoid getting fleeced by cyber-hoodlums..

How is a 205500% increase on my investment something I should stop doing....?

I'm always teaching people how to avoid getting fleeced.... That's why I tell people to avoid buying stock, avoid buying real estate, avoid holding fiat currency or anything denominated in fiat currency, avoid gold, silver, diamonds, etc. ( which all have their price controlled ), and definitely avoid investing in a business.

This is the chart for 1 month.... ending today. As you can see, my investment of $0.22 per bitcoin has gone up. In fact, in the past 30 days, it's gone up another 41%.

If anyone is still wondering what Brucie and Matt are wittering on about, here is a recent guide to IT-speak:

[attachment=0:2z4acwoz]21-12-2015 9-09-51 AM.png[/attachment:2z4acwoz]

[Tobi]

Aw, bitcoins, the first tulips of the 21st century. :YMDAYDREAM: http://d.pr/1jZmC

[bruce_nyc]

A better example would be the dot-com craze..... or Wall Street's fabricated derivatives. Even at its height, the Amsterdam Stock Exchange, well-established in 1630, wouldn't touch tulips. The speculation in tulip bulbs always existed at the margins of Dutch economic life.

But the best example of all..... is the US Dollar.... which has lost 97% of its value since the Consumer Price Index began tracking its real value.... in 1913.

That's the world's largest Ponzi Scheme: The US Dollar

Anyway, bitcoin is very different in the fact that nobody can create any more. There will never be more than 21 million bitcoin. That's why we continue to use smaller and smaller fractions of a bitcoin.... for transactions.... as the value of each bitcoin continues its journey to the moon. A cup of coffee used to cost 13.5 bitcoins. Today a cup of coffee costs 0.0068965517 bitcoins.

Now, the world is beginning to standardize on "bits". 1 bit = 0.000001 bitcoin

So a cup of coffee might cost 5605 bits today.

[Tobi]

It wouldn't surprise me if the USA decided to make it an offence for its citizens to hold bitcoins.

[bruce_nyc]

The US Congress has already declared bitcoin explicitly legal. The IRS has also officially endorsed bitcoin.

This is from 2 years ago.... but it's still somewhat accurate.... despite being written by Forbes.... http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill ... the-world/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/01/31/bitcoins-legality-around-the-world/)

Thailand's central bank ( Bank of Thailand ) has since retracted, or "clarified" their stance on bitcoin. They say that it's perfectly legal to buy it, sell it, hold it, accept it, or spend it...... in Thailand..... ( as long as you're not exchanging it for a foreign currency for others without a license ). Even exchanging bitcoin for baht, and vice versa, is legal in Thailand without any special "money transmittal" license.

[Tobi]

Hahaha. I'm loving the way you just make stuff up and then try to pontificate it as fact. The IRS hasn't officially endorsed anything.

In truth, terrorism may be the nail in bitcoin's coffin, given that the EU is already looking askance at its use in transferring funds to and from ISIS. Oh, and just because something's legal at the moment, doesn't mean it'll remain legal in the future.

I've also been following with interest how the US reporting requirements have now made foreign banks reluctant to accept US citizens as customers and many in Central and South America are already refusing to open new accounts and closing down ones that are held by Americans.


Even at its height, the Amsterdam Stock Exchange, well-established in 1630, wouldn't touch tulips.

Nout Wellink, has called dealings in bitcoins a bubble that is тАЬpure speculationтАЭ and тАЬhypeтАЭ and тАЬworse than the tulip maniaтАЭ of the seventeenth century because тАЬat least then you got a tulip [at the end], now you get nothing.тАЭ (from your Forbes link above)

[Smiles]

A better example would be the dot-com craze..... or Wall Street's fabricated derivatives. Even at its height, the Amsterdam Stock Exchange, well-established in 1630, wouldn't touch tulips. The speculation in tulip bulbs always existed at the margins of Dutch economic life.
Please resist the urge to copy an hypothesis word for word without acknowledging the original writer. For instance, this sentence is copied from Bloomberg Business ..... http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_17/b3678084.htm
Mr Mike Dash wrote this, and should given credit for the analogy.

[bruce_nyc]

Hahaha. I'm loving the way you just make stuff up and then try to pontificate it as fact. The IRS hasn't officially endorsed anything.

I suppose this is not an official statement. I know. I made it all up. https://www.irs.gov/uac/Newsroom/IRS-Vi ... y-Guidance (https://www.irs.gov/uac/Newsroom/IRS-Virtual-Currency-Guidance)

Those that bitcoin hurts the most... will search for any excuse to attack bitcoin. That is true. They will say that it's used by criminals. But the facts get in the way. 99.99% of all criminal transactions are conducted in cash. So..... they are going to need to outlaw cash first.... in order to maintain any sort of a logical excuse that makes sense to the public. They are feeling *very* threatened by bitcoin.... as they lose their monopoly on the world's money.

[bruce_nyc]

Please resist the urge to copy an hypothesis word for word without acknowledging the original writer.

Yes. I quoted that one sentence. I thought it was obvious.... since it's not my writing style at all. Sorry. I'll cite my sources more carefully for you next time.

[Tobi]

I know. I made it all up.

Yes. You did. That statement is not an endorsement. Here, let me help you with the dictionary definition of the word endorsement.


"an act of giving one's public approval or support to someone or something".

[Tobi]

But the facts get in the way. 99.99% of all criminal transactions are conducted in cash.

Hahaha. I'm so enjoying your made-up "facts". Nope. 99.99% of all criminal transactions are not conducted in cash, almost half of all criminal transactions are in fact some form of barter. Oh, and perhaps you think the estimated $1bn of business conducted via the Silk Road before it was closed down was handled in huge wads of 500 euro notes too, huh? =))

I have to ask, have you ever worked at Enron by any chance? You really remind me of those desperate types who try to rope people into an MLM, pyramid or Ponzi scheme just before it collapses.

[bruce_nyc]

This is a great little intro to.... "What is Bitcoin?"

[youtube:149j5o9o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc2en3nHxA4[/youtube:149j5o9o]

[Smiles]

Yes. I quoted that one sentence. I thought it was obvious.... since it's not my writing style at all. Sorry. I'll cite my sources more carefully for you next time.
You did not quote it, you stole it to use it as your own.
True 'quoting' implies a step further, i.e. specific acknowledgement. You used it in order to sound like a Knowledgeable Person - and thus to impress on others that you are in fact 'knowledgeble' when you are in fact nothing but a user of other people's writings. That is to say, a fraud.
Now one wonders, how much more have you used to impress.

[bruce_nyc]

Yes. That statement from the IRS officially acknowledges bitcoin as a legal asset and recognizes it for tax purposes. That's as official as it gets.

It's explicitely legal in the USA. There's no doubt about it. You guys can split hairs about the term ( endorses, acknowledges, recognizes )... but you can't change the facts.

It's also now explicitely legal in Thailand too. But whether local governments have gotten around to recognizing it yet or not, bitcoin is used everywhere on earth every day.

Oh, and as for some reporter calling bitcoin "a bubble"....

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one.

... bitcoin is used everywhere on earth every day.I defy you to produce the evidence to support that assertion. It's pure hyperbole, the sort of nonsense we expect from religious converts - which clearly you are.

[Tobi]

You can't change the facts.

Hahahaha. Of course we can, Walter Mitty, seeing as you are just making these "facts" up.

[bruce_nyc]

There are a thousand ways to obtain the information you seek. Google.com is always a good tool to try... if you know what terms to enter.

Check out these for a start.....

Bitcoin Transactions
http://bitcoinglobe.com

Bitcoin Ticker Live Transactions
http://bitcointicker.co/transactions

Realtime Bitcoin
http://realtimebitcoin.info

Blockchain Visualisation
http://bits.coinlaunch.com

BitListen - Bitcoin Transaction Visualizer
http://www.bitlisten.com

Transaction Visualizations | Bitcoin Links
http://www.bitcoinlinks.net/tag/transac ... alizations (http://www.bitcoinlinks.net/tag/transaction-visualizations)

More Information and Endorsements of Bitcoin
https://www.weusecoins.com

You don't have to take my word for it. As you can see with your own eyes, Bitcoin is used everywhere on earth every day.

The height of the vertical bars indicate the volume of transactions occurring at that very moment.

Click on the pics to enlarge them.....

[Smiles]

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one.
Spoken like a man who likely has as many assholes as he does opinions.

[bruce_nyc]

You're right. I encounter *many* in life... They're everywhere.

[Smiles]

You're right. I encounter *many* in life... They're everywhere.
Most of them right behind you.

[bruce_nyc]

Yes. In fact, they're usually far behind me.... in almost every way. ;)

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one.
Spoken like a man who likely has as many assholes as he does opinions.
There's nothing wrong with having opinions Smiles - provided they are my opinions that everyone is having.

[cdnmatt]

Bruce is supposedly an expert IT consultant who's been in the industry for 37 years, but doesn't even know a smartphone is a computer, so wouldn't worry about it too much.

[Smiles]

There's nothing wrong with having opinions Smiles - provided they are my opinions that everyone is having.
I would humbly suggest that you - i.e. 'You-Yourself' - have at least 45 more assholes than Brucie-of-this-Board can claim to fame. That's saying a lot, I agree, but one has to take the bad news when it's bitch-slapped directory into at least one of your 14 chins.

[bruce_nyc]

So now I've had to put the useless childish non-contributing posters on ignore.... smiles, cdnmatt, tobi, kommentariat. So nobody should be surprised that I won't see anything they post. I can concentrate on productive conversations with civilized respectful adults.

[Tobi]

Ah, no wonder you needed to start your own board. :D

[bruce_nyc]

Only a few people have claimed their free $20.... So I'll repeat my offer. If you install the Airbitz wallet and send me a payment Request from it.... I'll send you $20.

Go to http://airbitz.co and install the mobile app.

Then, no matter where you are, you can go to https://howtobuybitcoins.info to find a local currency exchange company that allows you to buy bitcoin for cash..... or sell bitcoin for cash.

It's so super easy to then convert your bitcoin into cash too. If you're in Thailand, just go to http://coins.co.th and touch the Cash Out button. ( Of course, if you're back home.... you can also send bitcoin to http://coins.co.th and sell the bitcoins directly converting them into thai baht which they will transfer into your thai boyfriend's thai bank account. Basically....Zero fees. Zero delay.

It's the perfect replacement for using the major ripoff that is Western Union.

[cdnmatt]

Awwww, bruce needs a hug.

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/8800000/Big-Bear-Hug-keep-smiling-8892466-400-378.jpg

lol

[Smiles]

Only a few people have claimed their free $20.... So I'll repeat my offer. If you install the Airbitz wallet and send me a payment Request from it.... I'll send you $20.

Go to http://airbitz.co and install the mobile app.

Then, no matter where you are, you can go to https://howtobuybitcoins.info to find a local currency exchange company that allows you to buy bitcoin for cash..... or sell bitcoin for cash.

It's so super easy to then convert your bitcoin into cash too. If you're in Thailand, just go to http://coins.co.th and touch the Cash Out button. ( Of course, if you're back home.... you can also send bitcoin to http://coins.co.th and sell the bitcoins directly converting them into thai baht which they will transfer into your thai boyfriend's thai bank account. Basically....Zero fees. Zero delay.

It's the perfect replacement for using the major ripoff that is Western Union.
Surely to christ the membership of this board cannot but see quite clearly the amateurish hocus pokus of this dude Bruce. The epitome of the Ugly American arrives on Sawatdee. Just an example of his excruciating used car salesman crap, as if we are children ... take a gander: http://gaysexthailand.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17

[Smiles]

Awwww, bruce needs a hug.
Actually, Bruce needs a good top.

[Tobi]

Actually, Bruce needs a good top.

Yup, he's made for a circus. :(|)

There's nothing wrong with having opinions Smiles - provided they are my opinions that everyone is having.
I would humbly suggest that you - i.e. 'You-Yourself' - have at least 45 more assholes than Brucie-of-this-Board can claim to fame. That's saying a lot, I agree, but one has to take the bad news when it's bitch-slapped directory into at least one of your 14 chins.
I've just found out I'm in exalted company. Tasty has told some journalists (reported on Thai PBS) that there's a limit to the free expression of ideas that he's prepared to tolerate - in other words, they can have his opinions to express, they don't need their own.

[bruce_nyc]

Perhaps you could describe the step-by-step process of transferring money from another country to Thailand using Bitcoin.

How to Use Bitcoin as a Faster Cheaper Easier Western Union

Step-by-Step Instructions

See http://gaysexthailand.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=32#p32

:)

[Tobi]

See http://gaysexthailand.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=32#p32 :)

I'm gobsmacked by Surfcrest's generosity in giving permission for someone to continuously promote and drive Sawatdee's traffic to what is now essentially a rival board. :-o

[Surfcrest]

I'm gobsmacked by Surfcrest's generosity in giving permission for someone to continuously promote and drive Sawatdee's traffic to what is now essentially a rival board. :-o
I think I've stick my foot out in the past with other new boards and was criticized then for my decisions, so thought best to try a different approach to hear from the other side of the membership. But seriously, I don't see anyone driving traffic away, only...as you say, to his board. People don't come to Sawatdee to hang out with me, they're here to hang out with everyone else and I think that is the big difference here. He's offering a specialty discussion in an already limited discussion group. I wish him well, but the value of the idea is not in the software platform, but rather with the membership. And have no fear or any interest in bitcoin, but I've enjoyed the discussion. :)

Surfcrest

[Tobi]

He's offering a specialty discussion in an already limited discussion group.

You think?!


See our Meetups page: http://gaysexthailand.com/forum/

[Nirish guy]

Whilst you've all been sitting there trying to work out how much your bitcoins are going to rise in the next while it appears you may have been missing a trick as it appears one of the best investments around of late is in fact......wait for it.....LEGO BRICKS !! ( seriously !)

As taken from and as trending on twitter just now....... The value of LEGO Brick-Building Sets Has Risen Faster Than Stocks and Gold Since 2000, Report says the average mint-condition Lego set has jumped in value by 12 percent annually, the Telegraph reported. Gold earned 9.6 percent a year over the same period, followed by stocks and bank interest.

So, there you go, never mind Bitcoin wallets and the like, get down to your nearest toy store and buy the place out it seems, who knows, perhaps you could even pay for your LEGO bricks in Bitcoin ( but I doubt it ! ) :-)

[Tobi]

I'd avoid LEGO if you're an ethical investor as they support $cientology. http://d.pr/1lH4f

[bruce_nyc]

In the past 1 year, bitcoin has performed terribly. It only rose by 45%. ;)

How much did you say Lego has increased in the past year?

[attachment=0:2mws5hgz]Screenshot_2015-12-27-11-06-45.png[/attachment:2mws5hgz]

[Smiles]

The history of Bitcoin vis-a-vis losses, fraud and theft;


Theft and exchange shutdowns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bitcoin

Theft of bitcoin has been documented on numerous occasions. At other times, bitcoin exchanges have shut down, taking their clients' bitcoins with them. A Wired study published April 2013 showed that 45 percent of bitcoin exchanges end up closing.[111]

On 19 June 2011, a security breach of the Mt. Gox bitcoin exchange caused the nominal price of a bitcoin to fraudulently drop to one cent on the Mt. Gox exchange, after a hacker used credentials from a Mt. Gox auditor's compromised computer illegally to transfer a large number of bitcoins to himself. They used the exchange's software to sell them all nominally, creating a massive "ask" order at any price. Within minutes, the price reverted to its correct user-traded value.[112][113][114][115][116][117] Accounts with the equivalent of more than US$8,750,000 were affected.[114]

In July 2011, the operator of Bitomat, the third-largest bitcoin exchange, announced that he lost access to his wallet.dat file with about 17,000 bitcoins (roughly equivalent to US$220,000 at that time). He announced that he would sell the service for the missing amount, aiming to use funds from the sale to refund his customers.[118]

In August 2011, MyBitcoin, a now defunct bitcoin transaction processor, declared that it was hacked, which caused it to be shut down, paying 49% on customer deposits, leaving more than 78,000 bitcoins (equivalent to roughly US$800,000 at that time) unaccounted for.[119][120]

In early August 2012, a lawsuit was filed in San Francisco court against Bitcoinica тАФ a bitcoin trading venue тАФ claiming about US$460,000 from the company. Bitcoinica was hacked twice in 2012, which led to allegations that the venue neglected the safety of customers' money and cheated them out of withdrawal requests.[121][122]

In late August 2012, an operation titled Bitcoin Savings and Trust was shut down by the owner, leaving around US$5.6 million in bitcoin-based debts; this led to allegations that the operation was a Ponzi scheme.[123][124][125][126] In September 2012, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission had reportedly started an investigation on the case.[127]

In September 2012, Bitfloor, a bitcoin exchange, also reported being hacked, with 24,000 bitcoins (worth about US$250,000) stolen. As a result, Bitfloor suspended operations.[128][129] The same month, Bitfloor resumed operations; its founder said that he reported the theft to FBI, and that he plans to repay the victims, though the time frame for repayment is unclear.[130]

On 3 April 2013, Instawallet, a web-based wallet provider, was hacked,[131] resulting in the theft of over 35,000 bitcoins[132] which were valued at US$129.90 per bitcoin at the time, or nearly $4.6 million in total. As a result, Instawallet suspended operations.[131]

On 11 August 2013, the Bitcoin Foundation announced that a bug in a pseudorandom number generator within the Android operating system had been exploited to steal from wallets generated by Android apps; fixes were provided 13 August 2013.[133]

In October 2013, Inputs.io, an Australian-based bitcoin wallet provider was hacked with a loss of 4100 bitcoins, worth over A$1 million at time of theft. The service was run by the operator TradeFortress. Coinchat, the associated bitcoin chat room, has been taken over by a new admin.[134]

On 26 October 2013, a Hong-Kong based bitcoin trading platform owned by Global Bond Limited (GBL) vanished with 30 million yuan (US$5 million) from 500 investors.[135]

On 3 March 2014, Flexcoin announced it was closing its doors because of a hack attack that took place the day before.[136][137][138] In a statement that now occupies their homepage, they announced on 3 March 2014 that "As Flexcoin does not have the resources, assets, or otherwise to come back from this loss [the hack], we are closing our doors immediately."[139] Users can no longer log in to the site.

[Tobi]

In the past 1 year, bitcoin has performed terribly. It only rose by 45%.

No. It dropped from a high of $1,242 to $428. A loss of 66%.

[Nirish guy]

bruce_nyc said ┬╗ "In the past 1 year, bitcoin has performed terribly. It only rose by 45%. ;) How much did you say Lego has increased in the past year? "

Ha ha it says it all if you really felt the need there to defend Bitcoin against a light hearted post on twitter about Lego being more valuable than gold :-)

Don't worry, I doubt anyone will be going out and investing in mountains of Lego anytime soon ( way to awkard to build anyway what with all those sharp corners and all I'm sure ! )

[bruce_nyc]

Yeah. I doubt that anyone is including Lego sets in their investment portfolios.

My point was simply to keep it all in perspective.

Bitcoin has gone up.....

up 17.28% in the past 1 month

up 76.73% in the past 3 months

up 45.33% in the past 1 year

up 190913% in the past 5 years

So when people talk about amazing returns on investment.... I have trouble getting impressed by single digit increases annually.

( And one-day spikes or dips are just noise. Those affect nobody because nobody buys or sells at that moment.... at least nobody I know. )

You can put some bitcoin in your Airbitz wallet and *see* the dollar value increasing day after day. It's pretty cool.

[Tobi]

My point was simply to keep it all...

[cdnmatt]

To counter Bruce's over-optomistic argument... bitcoin goes up and down all the time, so wouldn't worry too much about price fluctuations. The price flucuations only work for folks like me who get paid in bitcoin, earn more than they need to live, and are in it for the long-term. Fluctuations don't matter to me, because I always have an invoice or two being paid every week at the current USD rate, and it only costs me about $2000/month to live a good life here.

To counter Bruce though, don't worry about these swings, as they happen often. You can expect a permanent increase in the price come mid-2016, when the block rewards halve. This is dumbing it down a little, but for all intents and purposes, the entire bitcoin financial network is powered by a bunch of privately owned warehouses filled with computers / servers in places like China, due to cheap electricity costs. These guys currently get 25 BTC for every "block solved" (don't worry about what that means), but come mid 2016 overnight that's getting halved to 12.5 BTC.

Right now, these guys are already running on tight margins. So bitcoin has to increase to a minimum of $700 for them to keep their doors open come mid 2016. Otherwise, they're going to operate at a loss, close shop, and bye bye bitcoin network. Ok, that's over exaggerating a little, because there are tools at the core devs disposal they can pull out if a crisis emerges, but that's pretty much the scene.

[Nirish guy]

Ok, so to save some time for us all ........now cue Bruce to say "No, that's absolutely not the scene Matt and you obviously know NOTHING about bitcoin and if you want he'll give you the number for the universal owner of Bitcoin, who is a by the way a personal friend of his and actually he's just rang him and asked him and he said that everything you've just said there is complete bollocks" - - there, that should speed things up a little :-)

[cdnmatt]

Apparently bruce has me on ignore, so doubt he'll be replying to me. :)

Regardless, he doesn't know what he's talking about. He only thinks he does. I think Smiles analogy of a used car salesman sums him up nicely. That, and if what I've researched / read about him is even partially true, then the shit I left in the toilet earlier deserves more respect than him.

[Nirish guy]

Hmm ? If you're referring to the stuff posted on here by Neal I should add that Bruce posted a few weeks ago denying all of that and putting it down to Neals illness - for what thats worth.

[cdnmatt]

No, I have his full name thanks to another poster I won't mention. Back in 2011 there were literally hundreds of people searching him out for fraud based activities, and as per-usual, they managed to dig up quite a bit of info on him.

You piss off the guys on something like Reddit, and you can expect your life to be put under a microscope. That's what happened with bruce.

[Nirish guy]

Ah I see, Ok, hmmm I'm guessing on ignore or not it may not be long until a reply is forthcoming to THAT post !??

Although as Bruce did mention "others out to get him and ruin his reputation for business reasons" as Bitcoin grew etc and the fact that he's certainly not "in hiding" per se I guess he'll have his own view on all of that in due course.......

[Smiles]

Brucie is the Donald Trump of this board.
The entire membership should hold a Primary ... at the same time as the Iowa one.

(Warning ... Bruce might actually regard the above as a compliment.)

[scottish-guy]

....putting it down to Neals illness...

Cunt-isis?

[Nirish guy]

Actually who knows as perhaps in this one instance he was right ??

Normally Neal's crustiness just came from his own bitter and twisted mind, whereas most if not all he posted about his dear friend Bruce ( if that is even the same Bruce who's a member here as I have no idea about that - perhaps others who HAVE met Bruce would care to comment on that ? ) But assuming that nearly all of what Neal posted came from a quick scour of Google and bitcoin fraud and Bruce etc ( again if it IS even the same Bruce and for what google is worth in terms of trustworthiness) then I would perhaps put those particular posts of Neal's in a slightly different bracket from those of his own general and usual cuntishness perhaps.

[cdnmatt]

Has nothing to do with what Neal said. Assuming that is Bruce's real name, you don't get that many people digging up every last detall on your life for no reason. Again, assuming that's his real name, he did something to piss a lot of people off, and tech junkies tend to be quite good at digging up your life details, and if you're a scum bag they have no issues with posting them on the internet for the world to see. He quite obviously pissed off a lot of people, and I'll go under the assumption there's some legitimacy behind it, especially considering not once have I read a rebuttal from him against the claims.

People like this deserve to be outed. I bust my ass to make an honest and legitimate living. By no means am I rich, but I'm not worried about how to pay the bills either. Nonetheless, every dollar I have was earned fairly. So when people like this come along, they deserve to be outed in my opinion.

This is kind of the ugly side of bitcoin. There is no bank or police to call, so act like an asshole, and expect the entire community to drag your name through the mud.

[Tobi]

OK, anyone up for trying you-know-who's Hornet bitcoin exchange?!

Although as Bruce did mention "others out to get him and ruin his reputation for business reasons" as Bitcoin grew etc and the fact that he's certainly not "in hiding" per se I guess he'll have his own view on all of that in due course.......
Don't all criminals on the run eventually end up in Thailand?'

To counter Bruce though, don't worry about these swings, as they happen often.There are "gold bugs" who make similar arguments.They're usually the same poor paranoid bozos who believe in the end of civilisation as we know it, based on the failure of fiat currencies which is, as always, just around the corner; the only difference is that "bitcoin bugs" are high-tech wankers, whereas "gold bugs" are merely wankers

[bruce_nyc]

Apparently, it's now a free for all.... in that it's OK to post people's real names, home addresses, photos and videos of them here. So have at it! It's open season. There's no expectation of Privacy here...

I don't care about what strangers think of me. I don't care in the least.

I have absolutely zero worries about what people who don't know me.... think.

And I don't need the headaches of being in the public eye again.

I always help everyone.

I'm a great guy.

If strangers wanna believe lies about me.... I don't care.

I have a great happy life.

If they believe misinformation, that's their problem. Not mine.

If I were Oprah Winfrey..... would I do a documentary to explain that I'm not really in a lesbian relationship with "my best friend Gail"....?

The answer is..... No.

Giving energy to idiots..... only gives idiots more energy.

And if I were really "in hiding" from anyone or anything, I wouldn't be announcing my home address in New York and in Bangkok, and my travel plans, and hosting meetups in my home and in public places, and meeting in person many people from here, etc. Put your little thinking caps on just for a second and *try* to think it through. omg

( If I were hiding from anyone or anything, I'd probably use a fake name and never agree to meet anyone. Or agree to meet them but when they show up in my remote town, go silent. )

The internet is *full* of lies. And the more defaming the lies, the faster and wider they spread. But just because you help spread lies, doesn't make you smart. In fact, it shows your stupidity.... and your utter disregard for the truth.

If people are stupid enough to repeat false information, then exaggerate it into massive lies.... that's their problem. Not mine. It's called cyber bullying. But it doesn't affect my *real* life in the least. Because it's all just that..... all lies.

The people who know me in real life know better.

If anyone wants to hear the whole story.... the *truth*.... then come meet me in person for coffee and I'll tell you the whole story. If not, then just believe whatever lies you want. Hell, add to the lies. Why not? Make me an international Illuminati pedophile tycoon who runs financial scams on the masses using Bitcoin and helps fund ISIS. Why not. Any lie is as good as any other lie. May as well make it a good one!

At least my real life friends aren't stupid enough to believe that crap.

[Tobi]

You kinda outed yourself Bruce.

[bobsaigon2]

Transparency? Accountability? Morality? All lacking. One scam after another from bitcoins to buttboys.

Surfcrest, There is no excuse for allowing him to make any further contributions to this board. If you think otherwise, please state your reasons.

[Surfcrest]

Members,

I've reviewed this thread and have made the following moderating decisions:

I have removed the link to the video that Tobi posted. It would appear as though someone stitched this together and that the information given appears to be a confession by the individual in the video, when it actually is a parody. It's important to note that while this is public information all easily found in a general "Google" search, that still violates the Rules in terms of revealing another member's identity. We have had members try to post "Gay Romeo" or "facebook" profile photos / information from a search, which this example resembles and which we cannot allow.

I've done quite a bit of reading on the Information linked to this link and I too have concerns with respect to; what appears to be promotion of a bitcoin idea to the members, inviting a financial transaction with members here and what appears to be questions from similar activity, from people who are posting that they've been negatively impacted by this investor on another bitcoin idea. While all of this may indeed be "Lies", I have a responsibility to protect the membership from an unproven idea being openly promoted on this site and supported with links to gaysexthailand and more promotion.

There are no specific Rules for this sort of "issue" and it's unique enough that I don't think it's necessary. There's no question in my mind that this is more "bitcoin idea promotion", members are being asked to get involved. promises of financial transactions between this member and members. I can't allow that here and clearly, the membership is unhappy with this activity here too and even Bruce continuing to be here as a member.

For this reason, I think it's best that bruce_nyc is asked to leave Sawatdee. I wish Bruce well again with his new "blog" and his ideas with bitcoin! If we need a Rule for this, for the future please let me know!

Surfcrest

[bobsaigon2]

Well done, Surfcrest.

I've reviewed this thread and have made the following moderating decision ...Some active moderating by splitting the thread when it morphed into a discussion about Bitcoin some weeks ago would have been better. Your decision has already made one of the Board's maiden aunts and lip-pursers happy. I thought Brucie was entertaining, especially with his idea that "hi-so Thai" meant some lower class person with aspirations to better themselves because "that's what everyone means by hi-so all around the world". He was uniquely fitted for the missionary position, as Smiles pointed out. Surely you could have replaced "Full member" with "Snake Oil Salesman" on his profile and left it at that? Everyone would have been warned. Asking him to leave seems somewhat drastic. However I see from his Board's RSS feeds that Bad Boy Billy (bbb and now reincarnated as Very Bad Boy Billy (vbbb)) is having a great time. Perhaps lonelywombat will be along soon to remind everyone that Bad Boy Billy was once one of my posting handles (according to the parallel universe in which the Wombat lives)

At least members currently in Bangkok will be on the lookout for a loud-mouthed Yank with badly-dyed hair

[Surfcrest]

Some active moderating by splitting the thread when it morphed into a discussion about Bitcoin some weeks ago would have been better.
Well, thankfully, you weren't one of the moderator's I chose. If you were to wind this back to Page 1 of the thread where the OP (Oh look, that's you!) baited cdnmatt into the discussion by referring to him as Sawatdee's IT "guru" which started into bitcoin...which was this thread's second post.

You might want to try a little reverse psychology next time to see if you ever get what you want from me...LOL.

Surfcrest

[cdnmatt]

Good job moderating Surfcrest. He can go talk to himself on his own forum.

You might want to try a little reverse psychology next time to see if you ever get what you want from me...
I find you completely wanting in every respect.

[christianpfc]

Only now do I come to read the recent development of this thread and the ramification of the bitcoin discussion and Bruce's board.

It wouldn't surprise me if the USA decided to make it an offence for its citizens to hold bitcoins.
That's an interesting idea, and there is precedence:
Gold Reserve Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Reserve_Act)
Governments all over the world screw their citizen by printing money, which leads to:

But the best example of all..... is the US Dollar.... which has lost 97% of its value since the Consumer Price Index began tracking its real value.... in 1913.
I support the idea of a form of storage of value that no government has power over, like gold or bitcoin. Some day I might look into bitcoin and join.

There are various aspects to bitcoin: speculation or storage? As a chemist, I can handle gold, I can bury it and dig it up, dissolve it in acid, hide it, smuggle it across borders, and convert it back. When I cut a bar in half, both halfes are worth exactly half of the original bar. I can't do any of this with bitcoin (I'm not saying it's impossible, but I don't know how to do it).

Bruce is supposedly an expert IT consultant who's been in the industry for 37 years, but doesn't even know a smartphone is a computer, so wouldn't worry about it too much.
And you don't know how to use Grindr. post299206.html (http://sawatdeenetwork.com/forum/post299206.html)

[Tobi]

As a chemist, I can handle gold, I can bury it and dig it up, dissolve it in acid, hide it, smuggle it across borders, and convert it back. When I cut a bar in half, both halfes* are worth exactly half of the original bar. (*halves)
"Nout Wellink has called dealings in bitcoins a bubble that is тАЬpure speculationтАЭ and тАЬhypeтАЭ and тАЬworse than the tulip maniaтАЭ of the seventeenth century because тАЬat least then you got a tulip [at the end], now you get nothing.тАЭ


But the best example of all..... is the US Dollar.... which has lost 97% of its value since the Consumer Price Index began tracking its real value.... in 1913.
Bitcoin has lost 66% of its value in just the last year.

[Nirish guy]

"Only know do I come to read the recent development of this thread and the ramification of the bitcoin discussion and Bruce's board."

What ??

[Brad the Impala]

Bruce is supposedly an expert IT consultant who's been in the industry for 37 years, but doesn't even know a smartphone is a computer, so wouldn't worry about it too much.
And you don't know how to use Grindr. post299206.html (http://sawatdeenetwork.com/forum/post299206.html)

Ah but Matt acknowledges when he doesn't know something, as your link makes clear.

Bruce is supposedly an expert IT consultant who's been in the industry for 37 years, but doesn't even know a smartphone is a computer, so wouldn't worry about it too much.
And you don't know how to use Grindr. post299206.html (http://sawatdeenetwork.com/forum/post299206.html)
Ah but Matt acknowledges when he doesn't know something ...
Only some of the time, as his postings about VPNs make clear to those of us who do understand these things. However he's possibly not as dumb as Surfcrest who, if he has ever read Sun Tzu, has not grasped how to apply what he has read so as to comprehend other people :ymdevil:

[cdnmatt]

And you don't know how to use Grindr. post299206.html (http://sawatdeenetwork.com/forum/post299206.html)

Well, I didn't at the time. Got it figured out now though. :-) Only reason I bought a tablet was for the gay dating apps like Grindr and Hornet, as sites like GR are pretty much deserted, at least for up here. Got it all figured out now though. Aside from Line, Grindr and Hornet, I have zero use for my tablet.

Again, my niche is commercial based software -- multiple servers, separating the services, and actual web sites you reigster and login to. I don't do mobile apps, although looks that may be changing quite shortly.

[francois]

Amazing, 17 pages of bullshit on alternatives to Western Union. Anyone not knowing "Shit from Shinola" would know how to transfer money to Thailand, other than Western Union. Let it die and get a life. :ymdevil:

[Surfcrest]

However he's possibly not as dumb as Surfcrest who, if he has ever read Sun Tzu, has not grasped how to apply what he has read so as to comprehend other people :ymdevil:
Speaking of the Art of War, I just slit BrisbaneGuy's throat...I'd do the same for you, but I like to keep my enemies closer.

Surfcrest