Air Fares

[malchik21]

I am finishing my shift a week early this month and I have been tracking the fares to Bangkok to cheer me up from the miserable UK summer. I am surprised that the cheapest fare I found was a round trip that in fact routed me from Munich, where I finish work, back through the UK (with a night layover so I can go home) with BA. The fare of ┬г380 was 2/3 the price of the web fare from London. I don't need to go back to Munich and the direct return back to London suits me just fine.
For the travel agents out there or travel experts, for future reference, if i had not been in Munich and did not use the Munich - London portion of the trip would that invalidate the entire journey ? Why need to book a round trip from the UK when you get a much cheaper flight by starting somewhere else in Europe !! I found the flight on sky scanner and bought the ticket from gotogate.com. On an even happier note my Company would not consider it unreasonable to swing that fare back to the UK on my expenses as that is what they might have paid anyway !!

For the first time I plan to stay a few days in Bangkok (any suggestions?) before heading to Pattaya where I am hoping Sunny Boys and Eros will be the fun place it was on my last visit. Some boys I met there last time have now returned to Cambodia and I have an invitation to go and see them in Siam Reap for a few days, but that depends on whats around in Pattaya, I fall in love very easily.

:x

[paulosussex]

Hi,
These fares exist because airlines that are not based in a particular country want to attract customers to their flights, as normally most peoples choice for convenience is to use their country's national or main airline and fly direct, simple as that. So it's often cheaper to fly with KLM to AMS and then to Thailand or Finnair to Helsinki and then to Bangkok for example - one reason being the extremely high pax flight duty levied in the UK.
The one thing with multiple flight itineraries booked on one ticket is that as soon as you are a 'no show' for one sector, the ticket is immediately cancelled. So in your case if you didn't fly Munich to London your whole itinerary would be cancelled and you couldn't board in London. However if you did fly from Munich to London and on to Bangkok and return to London but simply didn't return to Munich then you could be a no show for the final sector as it wouldn't matter but if you had checked baggage that would continue to Munich or be offloaded and it may be hard and/or embarrassing to retrieve it.
Cheers

[firecat69]

If you do not fly the final leg , the airline would have the right to re-price the ticket and charge your CC. In reality , it rarely happens but you need to be aware that it could and you would be able to do nothing about it.

[scottish-guy]

Firecat is right about that.

There was recently an extraordinarily cheap British Airways business class promotion to Asia (around ┬г800 return) out of Germany with a long long stopover window in the UK. That fare being a FRACTION of normal ex UK.

In other words on BA you could book E.G. FRA(nkfurt)>LON>BKK>LON>FRA:

Get a cheap one-way Easyjet flight to FRA
Have a city break in Frankfurt at your leisure
Fly back to LON on your BA Business Class flight
Say 3 months later do your LON>BKK Business Class flight
Enjoy your Thailand trip
Come back to the UK on BA Business Class
Never take the final leg back to FRA.
Save yourself a fortune on the ex UK fare.

However, BA got wind of people not taking the final leg, and made it known that if they discovered you doing it they'd re-price the schedule, and charge the diffeence. Whether they ever did or not, I don't know - but they apparently had the right to do so.

[malchik21]

Thanks all for the info. I fully intend to take all the sectors except the last one. My company as a matter of course alway look to book return flights with BA even if we need only one way as it is sometimes cheaper. With Lufthansa 100% of the time cheaper. So far I have not been aware of any repricing as a result of the throw away return. The T & C with gotogate require the outbound sectors to be flown or the whole trip will be cancelled. I believe the same is with BA.
yes I will enjoy my trip to Bangkok, just mulling over if I will go to Malaysia hotel or to the Ibis. Ambience in Pattaya and maybe the Marriott Spa Rayong for a couple of days on my points for my birthday treat, hopefully with a guest.

[francois]

For the first time I plan to stay a few days in Bangkok (any suggestions?) before heading to Pattaya where I am hoping Sunny Boys and Eros will be the fun place it was on my last visit.

:x
Eros, yes; Sunny Boys, no.

[egel]

Dont trust those bastards at BA.
I flew London-Bangkok-London, Business Class, and they charged an ADDITIONAL ┬г140 to reserve the seats I wanted. I didnt want to face backwards all the way, both ways.
When I got to the airport the girl then asked if I would like to change my seat....
Numerous other reasons to avoid which I cant be bothered to list.

[firecat69]

For those of you who like a little Luxury Business Class airfares are available AMS-BKK 1 stop as low as 1300 Euros for at least the next 6 months. I did not check but would bet there are other departure points besides Amsterdam.

[arsenal]

Egel: I don't know of any commercial airlines that have backwards facing seats apart from those used by the cabin crew during take off and landing.

[firecat69]

Actually there are quite a few on Wide Body Business Class seats

[arsenal]

Well you learn something new every day. Some experts claim that airline travel would be safer if all seats faced backwards.

[egel]

Egel: I don't know of any commercial airlines that have backwards facing seats apart from those used by the cabin crew during take off and landing.

Err..., BA, didnt I just say so?!


Some experts claim that airline travel would be safer if all seats faced backwards.

Correct. The Royal Air Force passenger flights always used to face rearwards.
However, would you like to be a major shareholder in the first airline to try it?!

Egel: I don't know of any commercial airlines that have backwards facing seats apart from those used by the cabin crew during take off and landing.
What a sheltered life you must lead: United also has rear-facing seats in international business class on some routes.

[christianpfc]

I find the practice of cancelling your flight if you don't take the first leg outrageous, but re-pricing the flight if you don't take the last leg is even more outrageous. I wonder who came up with this, and why there is no law against it. Qualifies as scam by my standards. I hope someone sues the airlines.

On my Bkk-Kiew-Berlin, Berlin-Kiew-Bkk flight, the Bkk-Kiew was late so the Kiew-Berlin left without me. I could board the Berlin-Kiew-Bkk flights without problems, there seems to be program that informs the airline I missed the flight Kiew-Berlin by superior force and did not voluntarily skip it.

[firecat69]

You are talking about 2 different things. Naturally if you missed your connection due to late arrival they will put you on the next available flight.

The airlines will never lose the fight if you fail to take your last flight and they recharge you. They have won that battle and yet most of the time they do not catch you or bother.

But they are well within their rights. They are trying to create a market between 2 cities and they offer special pricing for that . If you are not a normal traveller between those 2 cities then you are not their target and have the right to re - price the ticket.

If it happens to you there is no chance you will win.

I find the practice of cancelling your flight if you don't take the first leg outrageous...The airlines assume, with some justification, that if you haven't taken the first segment of multi-leg trip that you're not in a position to take the following segments
..but re-pricing the flight if you don't take the last leg is even more outrageous. I wonder who came up with this, and why there is no law against it. Qualifies as scam by my standards. I hope someone sues the airlines.There's been a long-running discussion on the ethics of this for the last few years, and there's been at least one site specialising in this type of booking (known as "skip-lagging"). As for the notion that the airlines can be sued for it, you'll find they're well and truly covered by their "Conditions of Carriage" that you accept whenever you buy an airline ticket.

You may find it somewhat less risky to check in online and then fail to turn up, provided there is a stopover before the last leg (that you don't propose taking anyway). Checking in (without baggage) and then failing to board is likely to attract less attention than simply not checking in at all. The people most likely to get caught - if the airlines really do care rather than huff-and-puff - are those who simply fail to board after a short stopover. Having said that I did three or four skip-lagging trips, all on a very well known international airline, in the mid-nineties with no downside whatsoever.

[malchik21]

I understand that BA will allow me to cancel the last sector on the basis that my travel plans might have changed. By the time I get back from BKK there should be another reservation for me in their system for my next assignment. Our travel office have been advised by BA that a no show for the return segment of a discounted flight will be recharged at the full one way price. I did not know that BA was now being run by Ryan Air !!
Any way for the benefit of the other ripped off Brits on this forum here is real chance to put aside some extra boy tokens and save a chunk off the airfares.

[egel]

I did not know that BA was now being run by Ryan Air !!

They are certainly behaving that way. See my post above about now having to pay to reserve your seat.
I, for one, will never use them again.

[christianpfc]

As for the notion that the airlines can be sued for it, you'll find they're well and truly covered by their "Conditions of Carriage" that you accept whenever you buy an airline ticket.

It might be in their "Conditions of Carriage", but it's wrong by my standards. Here you hear ChristianPFC crying for the government to restore order by outlawing this practice. Let's outlaw this entire dynamic pricing, buses and trains (in Thailand, but trains in Germany do) don't have dynamic pricing, why do airlines?

A ruling a few years ago in Germany about prepaid mobile phone SIM cards shows that the government can step in for the customer: before, when your SIM expired you lost all the remaining balance to the company. Now the company has to send credit the old balance on a new SIM card, in my case they even sent a new SIM for free with the remaining balance.

Similar with prices in menus in restaurants: in Germany, all prices have to be the price you pay; the practice in Thailand of adding VAT and/or service charge to displayed price would immediately get you sued.

It might be in their "Conditions of Carriage", but it's wrong by my standards.Your "standards" are completely, totally, utterly irrelevant. It's entirely up to you whether you ever fly on a commercial flight again, but if you do you'll be agreeing to their standards, not yours.

[firecat69]

+1

[bruce_nyc]

No. I'm with Christian on this. I don't care what their biased contract, which their lawyers wrote, says. It's wrong. Flat out wrong.

If and when I have a choice --- as The Customer --- I will chose an airline that does not abuse their customers in this way. And I will let my views be heard loudly.

I may understand why they want to make more money.... because they want to make more money.... for profits.... blah blah blah all day long. But that doesn't make it right.

If I buy a ticket for two legs of a trip, there's no way in hell they should *require* me to use both. Period. It's wrong. ( in the ethical sense )

That would be the equivalent of a movie theater selling you a ticket to a movie.... Then charging you double if you don't show up.

Unless they are actually paying *me* to show up, they don't have an ethical leg to stand on.

Airlines are extremely competitive. All it will take is one airline to advertise that they *don't* abuse customers this way.... for them all to change.

[fountainhall]

I don't care what their biased contract, which their lawyers wrote, says. It's wrong. Flat out wrong.

If and when I have a choice --- as The Customer --- I will chose an airline that does not abuse their customers in this way. And I will let my views be heard loudly.
Anyone can scream as loud as they can that something is wrong and they can scream equally loudly about letting their views be known. The plain fact is that a contract is a contract. When you as a passenger purchase a ticket you agree - usually by ticking a box on a computer screen - to abide by the airline's terms and conditions. No tick - no ticket! Like it or not, these form a legally binging agreement which, once signed, gives the purchaser zero rights if he unilaterally fails to abide by the terms of the agreement.

As has been said before here, this is particularly true in the case of flights originating outside a carrier's home country which are often substantially cheaper. As has been noted, fly London to Chicago and back on BA and you are stung for quite a high fare. Fly Berlin via London/Chicago via London/Berlin and the price can be as much as 40% cheaper. I know, for that's what I did last June. I did not want to end up back in Berlin, but I knew that BA could - and according to a travel agent in London often do - add supplements on to credit cards if I just got off in London. So I just paid for another Berlin/London ticket which was still only about тВм65 when I booked it.

Travel agents in London I have dealt with for business colleagues will not issue tickets if they know you do not plan to fly the last sector. They know that BA will quickly be after them. The solution to an individual travelling with such intent is, I guess, to use one credit card for the booking and then cancel the card once the booking is confirmed. Then there is no card for a surcharge. But I'd be reluctant to do that with an airline I was taking regularly.

Airlines will screw you every which way.

[Andaman!]

christianpfc wrote:
..but re-pricing the flight if you don't take the last leg is even more outrageous. I wonder who came up with this, and why there is no law against it. Qualifies as scam by my standards. I hope someone sues the airlines.

I think ChristianPrivateFirstClass and BruceyNYC fail to understand the econonomics of flight pricing. The simple fact is that people will pay more for a direct flight. Therefore airlines have to discount fares to attract customers to take a non-direct flight as opposed to a direct flight. In the example Fountainhall gives, BA Berlin / London / Chicago is 40% less than the BA London / Chicago flight. The reason it is less is that due to being a longer total journey time with a change of planes on London, it has to compete very favourably on cost compared to Berlin Chicago direct with Lufthansa or one of the U.S. Carriers. If the airlines did not try to fill their seats by attracting customers from other countries, they would need to increase prices further for direct routes. By not flying a final sector customers are seeking to scam the airline - it is effectively theft with the customer trying to defraud the airline. The airlines should take action to avoid being scammed by customers in this way, otherwise we will all end up paying higher fares.

[bruce_nyc]

Pricing is not my problem, as THE CUSTOMER.

If they want to give a discount to German citizens, they are free to offer a discount and require a German ID. But if they simply sell tickets, I should be able to use any or all of those I bought.

Don't underestimate the power of consumers' voice. Airlines are constantly looking for a competitive advantage. It only take one guy on Twitter complaining about an abusive policy.... to give some airline executive an idea. Then they start a new advertising campaign, "We don't punish you for not taking every leg of every trip you buy!"

And bit by bit the industry changes....

[christianpfc]

This entire dynamic pricing, and selling flights at fares that do not cover the costs (and absurdities like fuel surcharge) should be outlawed! That includes single trips not being half the price of return trips, but usually overcharged at about 70%.

One price, no matter when I buy the ticket. Like going to cinema, or traveling by bus.


By not flying a final sector customers are seeking to scam the airline - it is effectively theft with the customer trying to defraud the airline. The airlines should take action to avoid being scammed by customers in this way, otherwise we will all end up paying higher fares.
The airline has no disadvantage if I don't fly one leg, on the contrary the plane is lighter and consumes less fuel. Accusing the customer of fraud is absurd.

[Andaman!]

By not flying a final sector customers are seeking to scam the airline - it is effectively theft with the customer trying to defraud the airline. The airlines should take action to avoid being scammed by customers in this way, otherwise we will all end up paying higher fares.
The airline has no disadvantage if I don't fly one leg, on the contrary the plane is lighter and consumes less fuel. Accusing the customer of fraud is absurd.[/quote]

ChristianPEC (ChristianPrivateEconomyClass) - You miss the point. Airlines offer discounted flights if you do NOT fly direct. This is to help fill seats which keeps overall prices down. Flying on BA AMS-LHR-BKK-LHR-AMS is much cheaper than LHR-BKK-LHR. This is because to get the Amsterdam to BKK business, BA have to undercut both KLM and TG who can offer direct flights. If I want to take advantage of the discount, flying from London, I must first buy a return ticket (known as positioning flight) from LHR to AMS so I can then take advantage of the BA price from Amsterdam (which in premium classes would still be cheaper than LHR to BKK return). If I just bought a single to Amsterdam, and then on return leg did not fly back to AMS, I would be fiddling the system and BA would be justified in charging me accordingly for missing a leg.

It is important to note that long and short haul flying today is in many cases cheaper today than it was 30 years ago and much of this is because of the pricing models the airlines have adopted to fill their aircraft. Without this, you might find you were flying on half empty aircraft and paying double the price.

ChristianPEC, where I do agree with you is on the issue of abolishing surcharges. This is an iniquitous practice and should be outlawed so that full ticket price is just the base prices plus government taxes

[bruce_nyc]

Of course, everyone understands the airlines' reasoning. They want to make more profit.

It's just that this method of making more profit happens to not be *ethical*.

There are other ways.... For example, offer discounted fares to residents of a certain country and require a government ID to receive the discount.

[paulosussex]

There are other ways.... For example, offer discounted fares to residents of a certain country and require a government ID to receive the discount.

This system is already in place in countries like Cambodia where airlines runs special fare promotions for Khmer ID card carriers with fares at 50% or less of the fare available to non Khmer customers.

Cheers

I will chose an airline that does not abuse their customers in this way. Should I start holding my breath?

Last time I looked a number of airlines already charge half-price for one-way fares - SQ for example, QF and JQ - at least on routes they have in common - even for their cheapest classes of fares. TG only makes one of the more expensive classes of fare available for one-way

[bruce_nyc]

Yes. Things are changing.... Slowly but surely. Many airlines are offering half price for a one way trip.

http://www.fastcodesign.com/3051075/why ... your-fault (http://www.fastcodesign.com/3051075/why-airline-travel-sucks-its-partially-your-fault)

[firecat69]

You have to love all the dreamers that they will change how airlines act. They act for themselves . For years most Major Airlines lost money and I don't think any customers were sending them extra money to help them out.

Then they figured out they needed to make money to survive. You can't buy a ticket without agreeing to the terms. Not reading the terms does not absolve you of compliance.

Anyone who wants to test them can proceed in throwing away the last leg etc and if the airline comes after you, you will pay. Simple as that.

[christianpfc]

ChristianPEC (ChristianPrivateEconomyClass) - You miss the point. Airlines offer discounted flights if you do NOT fly direct. This is to help fill seats which keeps overall prices down. Flying on BA AMS-LHR-BKK-LHR-AMS is much cheaper than LHR-BKK-LHR. This is because to get the Amsterdam to BKK business, BA have to undercut both KLM and TG who can offer direct flights. If I want to take advantage of the discount, flying from London, I must first buy a return ticket (known as positioning flight) from LHR to AMS so I can then take advantage of the BA price from Amsterdam (which in premium classes would still be cheaper than LHR to BKK return). If I just bought a single to Amsterdam, and then on return leg did not fly back to AMS, I would be fiddling the system and BA would be justified in charging me accordingly for missing a leg.

But I paid for the AMS-LHR and LHR-AMS, and if I don't take the LHR-AMS, that's like being too late for the train or cinema!

See what this practice does: you want to fly LHR-BKK-LHR, but have to waste time (and pollute the environment) but save money by flying LHR-AMS-LHR-BKK-LHR-AMS-LHR, with the LHR-AMS and AMS-LHR probably low-cost and not BA.

"positioning flight" - I didn't know that before! Is shows which absurdities are produced to shift market shares. Next KLM does the same to get the LHR-BKK business and nothing is gained, only confusion created, time wasted and global warming increased.

If there is competition on the BKK flights, just reduce number of flights or seats!

[christianpfc]

You have to love all the dreamers that they will change how airlines act. They act for themselves . For years most Major Airlines lost money and I don't think any customers were sending them extra money to help them out.

There is actually precedence how the law can change in customers' favor. In Germany, when your SIM card expired you lost all the remaining balance to the telephone company. Some years ago, a law was introduced that the telephone company has to credit your remaining balance to a new SIM card, and it works!

If all major airlines lost money over years, they must have been doing something fundamentally wrong! One of the reasons why I don't own a plane or an airline is that I don't care about the intricacies of flights and costs. (The other reasons are that I can't fly and don't have the money.) I DON'T CARE! Put all your expenses in the ticket price and I will pay it or not.


Then they figured out they needed to make money to survive. You can't buy a ticket without agreeing to the terms. Not reading the terms does not absolve you of compliance. Anyone who wants to test them can proceed in throwing away the last leg etc and if the airline comes after you, you will pay. Simple as that.
In Germany we have another law. If you sign a contract that has some immoral or unethical statements in it, a court will nil the paragraph with that statement. E.g. latintop would not be able to enforce three times sex per week with his tenant, even the the rent contract contains such a statement and his tenant signed it.

(I hear you thinking "Then go back to Germany!"; I guess similar laws are in force in other countries as well, I just don't know details.)

[firecat69]

Just more baloney Christian. I'm sure Lufthansa is worried. There is nothing immoral or unethical in offering a ticket between 2 points and expecting you will fly as stated in the ticket. The Sim card argument is also weak. There you bought something and were not told it would expire nor did you agree to it in advance, both of which happen with the airline.

But go ahead and try if you have $millions to sue the airline. Good Luck You will lose!

Just more baloney Christian. ... You will lose!Man up, Christian

[christianpfc]

There is nothing immoral or unethical in offering a ticket between 2 points and expecting you will fly as stated in the ticket.
The immoral or unethical point is charging me if I don't fly. I pay for a service (e.g. a flight ticket or a cinema ticket) and don't use it, my loss! Never in my wildest dreams would I have been able to imagine that an airline would want to charge you for not flying on a flight you have paid for.

I have never been in such a situation, and if my flying pattern stays the same I never will be.

[egel]

Never in my wildest dreams would I have been able to imagine that an airline would want to charge you for not flying on a flight you have paid for.


As an example....
Just go to Qatar Airways site and put in any route and then select a fare.
Not only does it give you the fare, it also gives you the Changes fee and the No Show Cost.

Wanna try them for real???

[firecat69]

There is nothing immoral or unethical in offering a ticket between 2 points and expecting you will fly as stated in the ticket.
The immoral or unethical point is charging me if I don't fly. I pay for a service (e.g. a flight ticket or a cinema ticket) and don't use it, my loss! Never in my wildest dreams would I have been able to imagine that an airline would want to charge you for not flying on a flight you have paid for.

I have never been in such a situation, and if my flying pattern stays the same I never will be.

Typical Christian. You comment on something you say you have never done and never will. First since it is well known you look for the cheapest alternatives, I believe at some point you will purchase that kind of fare.

It is equally possible you will do so even though you do not intend to fly all the segments. Just be prepared if you don't fly that final leg and the airline decides to come after you, you will lose. Of that there is no doubt and you can yell and scream as they take your money.

[christianpfc]

Quatar does indeed give a no-show fee. I have never seen this before.

I will watch out when I book my next flights (however, in Europe I take only direct flights; and as there are no direct flights from BER to BKK, all flights are already with one stop; so I will not encounter this problem with my current traveling pattern) and put this item on my list of things to when if I come to power (abolish this scam, refund everyone who had to pay no-show fees, and put those who invented this scam into forced labor camps).

[fountainhall]

In Germany we have another law. If you sign a contract that has some immoral or unethical statements in it, a court will nil the paragraph with that statement.

No court anywhere will agree that airline pricing policies re not using the last coupon on a multi-sector ticket are unethical - the more so when it is precisely that extra sector that enables you to get the ticket at a cheaper price!

[Jellybean]

. . . I will not encounter this problem with my current traveling pattern) and put this item on my list of things to when if I come to power (abolish this scam, refund everyone who had to pay no-show fees, and put those who invented this scam into forced labor camps).
Crikey Christian you seem to be having a bit of a struggle to get your point across on this topic. The fates appear to be working against you on this one. But fear not, perhaps you can draw some inspiration from this episode and use it to your advantage when deciding on a title for your forthcoming book. ;)

[egel]

if I come to power (abolish this scam, refund everyone who had to pay no-show fees, and put those who invented this scam into forced labor camps).

Mmm ....some time ago someone else tried forced labour camps and wasn't very successful with them was he Christian?

[malchik21]

I spoke with BA reservations (somewhere close by north west of Thailand) having been fobbed off by Executive Club hotline...about the possibility of delaying either the first leg MUC-LHR to the following day....yes but at the current listed one way fare тВм230 plus тВм100 change fee. Dick Turpin springs to mind. I had nothing to lose but try and go for it and as luck would have it my App advised me during the day that the flight had been delayed by 1 hour...so alls well that ends well.
However...
The connecting flight to BKK was delayed by 4 hours....I know they are one 777 down (las Vegas) but I really think the old heap they towed to the gate (delivered new to BA in 2001) was seriously passed its sell by date. Have I been spoilt by the likes of THAI, EMIRATES and maybe even TRANSAERO from Moscow. I thought the service was diabolical. No welcome pack with ear plugs and socks/eyes shades. The catering was barely edible. I know I paid only "tuppence" for my seat but I don't remember seeing the word "cheapskate" written on it. I had to fight to get a second (little) bottle of wine so I could have something to drink while watching one of the half a dozen movies or so that were on offer. It could have been brought to me hidden under a newspaper for the effort the staff put in to not let anyone else notice. The configuration of the 777 was 3 classes (no first) so clearly BA have given up on this route to the competition and just flogging off the seats at giveaway prices to our europeans neighbours. Ho Hum...
I am getting off at LHR and not taking the flight back to MUC. I am not telling BA until I get to LHR. I will let them prove to me that they have made a loss by me not travelling. Their T & C's relate only to outbound legs as far as I can see. Lets hope the BKK to LHR is another 4 hours late then i would miss it anyway.

[bruce_nyc]

I think that Christian's point is that charging a customer extra for not using a ticket that he has already paid for is completely unethical.

No policies or precedents or contracts or courts will alter that fact.

Christian is 1000 percent correct.

[firecat69]

What is unethical about holding someone to what they agreed to. It is a ridiculous argument ,when you accept the terms offered by the airline , you are then bound by them.

Don't like the terms don't accept them and don't cry if you have to pay because of your own stupidity! Same type of person who would complain when the airline charges him a big fee for his 100lb suitcase. Once again when you buy the fare you are advised of any additional charges and the restrictions. If you don't like them start walking!

[arsenal]

A few things here. The airlines make less per pound, dollar spent with them than any of the auxiliary services such as the airport or the caterers. Also, flights today are vastly less expensive (in real terms) than they have ever been. And actually getting cheaper as low cost airlines enter the market and drag down the prices of the big carriers.
I just found a return from London to Bangkok leaving 24 Nov returning 6 Dec with an outward journey time of 16hrs and return of 19hrs. Cost 379 pounds. That's a whopping 19 pounds more than I paid for a one way to Bangkok in 1989.

[egel]

I know they are one 777 down (las Vegas) but I really think the old heap they towed to the gate (delivered new to BA in 2001) was seriously passed its sell by date. Have I been spoilt by the likes of THAI, EMIRATES and maybe even TRANSAERO from Moscow. I thought the service was diabolical.
Im so pleased that you said exactly the same as I did in the other airline thread! Fuck em. Never again.

[Andaman!]

Malchik21, You may get away with not flying the sector to Munich if you travel with hand luggage only. If you have checked luggage, your bags will be tagged through to Munich and a request for them to be tagged to LHR only will alert the system and / or staff and BA may collect the balance in fare for your actual flight routing compared to the routing you booked and paid for. If you read some of the fyer forums, you will see that BA have been hot on this recently and it is covered in the T&C. Some people have got around this by booking their final leg from LCY or LGW so that they have to collect baggage at LHR due to the change of airport but even then there is no guarantee you will not be charged if you no show for the final sector. The issue for the airlines is that people will,pay more for a direct flight. Therefore if BA or AF, QR etc want to compete against TG on the MUC BKK route, they will have to undercut TGto compensate for the longer flight time and extra sector involving an aircraft change. By omitting the final ticketed sector, you are effectively getting a direct flight BKK to LHR and a cheaper non direct flight price. If you need to end up in London and are cost conscious and cant afford the risk, I suggest you continue to Munich and then buy a cheap single back to London.

Swiss have just announced some cheap Business Class fares https://www.swiss.com/gb/en/Book/OfferB ... i-DXB/xph2 (https://www.swiss.com/gb/en/Book/OfferBook/Group/from-London-LON-to-Dubai-DXB/xph2)

[firecat69]

There are all sorts of great fares even better. Finair from CDG-BKK RT $1800 US and many other combinations and airlines as low as $1600 for those who would prefer Business Class.. All require 1 stop but that's pretty Low.

[egel]

Swiss have just announced some cheap Business Class fares
Just put in my dates and they are not cheap at all (compared with Qatar).

[malchik21]

Malchik21, You may get away with not flying the sector to Munich if you travel with hand luggage only. If you have checked luggage, your bags will be tagged through to Munich and a request for them to be tagged to LHR only will alert the system and / or staff and BA may collect the balance in fare for your actual flight routing compared to the routing you booked and paid for. If you read some of the fyer forums, you will see that BA have been hot on this recently and it is covered in the T&C. Some people have got around this by booking their final leg from LCY or LGW so that they have to collect baggage at LHR due to the change of airport but even then there is no guarantee you will not be charged if you no show for the final sector. The issue for the airlines is that people will,pay more for a direct flight. Therefore if BA or AF, QR etc want to compete against TG on the MUC BKK route, they will have to undercut TGto compensate for the longer flight time and extra sector involving an aircraft change. By omitting the final ticketed sector, you are effectively getting a direct flight BKK to LHR and a cheaper non direct flight price. If you need to end up in London and are cost conscious and cant afford the risk, I suggest you continue to Munich and then buy a cheap single back to London.

Thanks for the info. I am now in fact back safe and sound in the UK..sadly ! They did in fact want to tag my luggage through to MUC but I told them I was only going as far as London as I had a new reservation to Malaga a few days later, which I showed them. They did re print a new tag to LHR only. Incidentally when it came to boarding they took my boarding pass and with a few key strokes on their computer they tore it up.....I thought "here we go bumped up to business class good old BA"....but no, apparently the carefully chosen seat, coveted by many, was broken, or so they said. Instead a new boarding card was printed with a seat right next to the bogs. Once on board I had a little moan at the Steward but to no avail. So 12 hours of a noisy smelly toilet in constant use (the other one opposite was broken) was my just desserts for being such a cad and trying to buck the system. I await their letter !! Finally the seat wasn't broken at all as someone else was sitting in it !!

Swiss have just announced some cheap Business Class fares
Just put in my dates and they are not cheap at all (compared with Qatar).You propose spending your money with an airline owned by a government that finances terrorism?

[gumblebee]

Quatar does indeed give a no-show fee. I have never seen this before.

I believe a "no show fee" is the part of the ticket price that doesn't get refunded in case of a no show (on top of the normal "cancellation fee"), not a fee that gets charged on top of the ticket price.

A policy where an airline tries to charge people for not using their whole ticket may well be in the conditions of carriage, would be in my opinion be impossible to enforce in Europe. Of course, the airline could put you on some sort of blacklist and refuse to accept your business anymore.

Even elsewhere I gather that airlines only try to enforce this if you make a habit out of it, and after prior warning.

[firecat69]

Good luck with that. When you buy the ticket you check the box agreeing to all conditions listed. Tough if you don't read them or understand them. If they charge you will py unless you have a lawyer on retainer and you intend to spend 1000's time the fee to fight.

[bruce_nyc]

It's an extremely competitive business and they *do* want to please their customers ultimately.... *if* you're able get through to the right people. There is an art to "complaining" effectively..... so that you do get what you want... ( regardless of any whining about the fine print and such nonsense ). I've had airlines break their own rules and waive thousands of dollars in charges.... simply because I made a clear logical case for my situation and they understood and empathized with me... and liked me.

By the way, a few years ago I decided that I really should be accumulating some sort of frequent flyer miles and lounge status, etc..... in spite of the fact that I don't really fly that often.... and I have been about as loyal to one airline as a Boyztown butterfly... So I did a bunch of research and interviewed my friends who are flier mile Platinum pros, etc. I concluded that the best airline was Qatar. The second best was a tie between Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines. I also concluded that the best tier structure offered was American Airlines. Thus, since American and Qatar and Cathay Pacific are all on the same "alliance".... called OneWorld..... I determined that the way to do it is: Get an American Airlines AAdvantage Number. When booking, use Qatar Airways as your first choice, Cathay Pacific as your second choice, and American as your third choice. But *always* enter your AAdvantage Number on every booking..... to accumulate all your points on your AA account. That way you'll achieve higher status tiers more quickly. Of course, these can be used anywhere in the world. You don't have to be American or ever fly on American Airlines even.

Now that my bf will be getting his USA green card soon, and a USA passport in a couple years after that..... and we'll be doing a lot more flying.... and I'm pretty clear on which airlines are my favorite airlines now... having flown so many different airlines by now.... I think it's finally time I revisit this issue...

Anyone else into sky miles and status? Do you agree with this strategy... or no?

[firecat69]

[quote="bruce_nyc"]. simply because I made a clear logical case for my situation and they understood and empathized with me... and liked me.

in spite of the fact that I don't really fly that often....

Now that my bf will be getting his USA green card soon, and a USA passport in a couple years after that..... and we'll be doing a lot more flying.... and I'm pretty clear on which airlines are my favorite airlines now... having flown so many different airlines by now.... I think it's finally time I revisit this issue... ""
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
All in the same post , fly so much you have argued and save thousands because they liked you.. Yeh?

Don't fly that often yet having flown so many different airlines . Which is it. Can't be both except in your posts ?? Just Amazing!!

[bruce_nyc]

I said....

I don't fly that much.

They conceded to waive charges because I gave them a reasonable explanation and they liked me ( NOT because I fly so much; I don't ).

I've flown many different airlines over the years because I've never been loyal to one.... thus I now know which ones I like best.

Soon I expect that I will be flying much more often.

Which part do you not understand?

[firecat69]

The whole thing is ridiculous. I have 500,000 miles with 3 different carriers and one thing for sure if you are not a Premium customer which you cannot be , since you don't fly , they will never waive charges period. You say you don't fly much so it is impossible for you to have any current information on airlines. Flying on an airline 10 years ago means nothing..

Its either you have enough recent experience (2 years) to know what you are talking about on your favorite airlines or you don't fly much so you have limited recent experience.

Which is it?

[bruce_nyc]

...one thing for sure if you are not a Premium customer which you cannot be , since you don't fly , they will never waive charges period.

That's absolutely not true..... as I already mentioned.


You say you don't fly much so it is impossible for you to have any current information on airlines. Flying on an airline 10 years ago means nothing. It's either you have enough recent experience (2 years) to know what you are talking about on your favorite airlines or you don't fly much so you have limited recent experience. Which is it?

It's not all or nothing. I either have 1,000,000 miles per year.... or zero....? So I either know *everything*..... or "it is impossible for me to have any current information on airlines".....? Nonsense.

As I said, I have enough recent experience ( yes, within 2 years ) to know which airlines I prefer and why.

I also disagree that it's only experience within 2 years that's relevant.

[firecat69]

You can blather all you want. I don't believe a word of it. Airlines seldom waive charges even for Premium Customers which you surely are not. Yes anyone can read articles from numerous sources and come up with the BS you do. Again it means nothing, personal experience is what counts of which you have little "you don't fly often" in your own words.

[Brad the Impala]

Firecat, "don't fly often" is a relative term. Compared to who? Compared to you? How can it be, we don't know how many flights you take!

So I would say that I don't fly often too, because I have friends who seem to be buzzing about all the time, but I have still flown on six different airlines in the last year.

And what is this "Premium Customer" that you keep referring to? That seems a relative term too, or are you referring to Business or First Class passengers in which case why not say so.

Which part do you not understand?

they liked me

And what is this "Premium Customer" that you keep referring to? That seems a relative term too, or are you referring to Business or First Class passengers in which case why not say so.firecat69 is referring to the status of a person within an airline's loyalty programme - specifically those whom the airline values because they travel more frequently. Some people regard Silver as the lowest "premium level"; most of the cognoscenti would regard Gold as the lowest really premium level before the stratospheric levels of Platinum (and on some airlines above) apply. My boyfriend is Lifetime Gold (because of the amount of flying he has done) on one Star Alliance airline and I piggy-back off his status to get an infinitely-renewable (while he remains alive and we remain together) Gold status annually :-s

It has almost nothing to do with the class of travel except that members will qualify faster for a premium level if they fly in a premium class =))

[firecat69]

Firecat, "don't fly often" is a relative term. Compared to who? Compared to you? How can it be, we don't know how many flights you take!

So I would say that I don't fly often too, because I have friends who seem to be buzzing about all the time, but I have still flown on six different airlines in the last year.

And what is this "Premium Customer" that you keep referring to? That seems a relative term too, or are you referring to Business or First Class passengers in which case why not say so.


Kommie said it better then me just before I replied.

Those are the customers that might and I say might get a break once in awhile. They have special phone numbers to call etc and talk with agents who have some discretion in certain matters. You might get a $100 change fee dropped or an excess baggage charge waived once in a blue moon, certainly not always.

Bruce makes ridiculous assertions that he has had thousands of charges dropped because he was nice.
.
Totally ridiculous . First of all to even be in a spot to have thousands of fees charged you would have to be a Top customer which Bruce surely is not. Remember he does not fly that often. Second no matter what kind of customer you are there is no chance thousands will be returned.

Those are the customers that might and I say might get a break once in awhile.My favourite phrase in response when I'm trying it on at an airport? "Just this once". It's got nothing to do with being liked (Bruce's fantasy), just being polite and asking. Flirting if it's a fellow queen sometimes helps ;)

[fedssocr]

When United filed their suit against SkipLagged there was a great deal of discussion about airline contracts of carriage. They have apparently never really been tested in court. And there are some legal scholars who believe that given their one-sided nature they are not really enforceable.

The thing with airfare pricing is that it none of it is based on anything like most people expect things to be priced. It's not based on distance traveled or anything similar. They set their prices based on city pairs, i.e. departure airport and ultimate destination airport. So if they are trying to drive more traffic to a particular sector they may discount it. It's all controlled by computer yield management algorithms these days. Which means it often makes little sense and changes frequently.

In practice I think it's generally agreed that if you skip the final sector once in a while nothing will happen. But if you do it frequently the airline might come after you.