Your advice requested: Transitioning a bar boy to live-in...

Whatever you do, don't let him move in - unless you love 24/7 thai music and thai televison

[Dodger]

Rainwalker...if this is the boy that I saw you walk into Memories with last May...give him whatever the fu*k he wants.

Thats funny.
How much was he making as a barboy? Any idea?
How long was he at the bar?
And he can go to college now?
You want to help him forget the bar life and thinking of you are a very very long time off, but if he was really good at it, or worked it too long, I wonder if that is possible.

Tough call. If hes hot he could easily make 20-30,000 a month (or more)

Do you think he could take a big drop in earnings? You know him better than most.

Whats to stop him dissapearing when youve paid for his rent and school fees - mom /dad etc? again i assume u know him well and his family circumstances?

[catawampuscat]

you seem enlightened to understand that this is not a "love" lifetime partnership situation and I think you have already won the battle so many
of us lose, at least the first few times..
Living together sounds like paradise but unless you have a large place to live you will have to adjust to Thai TV, Thai music and kareoke and
depending on the boy, possibly visiting family members, friends and others who call at any and all hours.. If he is clean and neat that is great but
many are spoiled, especially if they are men (thai concept) and think it is the woman's (your) job to pick up after them and bring home the beer and
the whiskey and not have a problem if they return many hours after they say they would or don't return at all and have bullshit excuses..
You should get the boy a room especially if you want to be a butterfly as it gets annoying to have him home when you want to play with another..

Each boy is different and since your boy has a good education you might avoid some of the pitfalls but just take it slow and don't promise him the world to
buy his love (it doesn't work) and watch out for the "I love you" s in moments of passion..The process is interesting and you will make mistakes... :cat:

[Surfcrest]

If he wasnтАЩt a bar boy, how much would he expect to make at a decent respectable job?
This based on what education he has presently.
At that salary, how much money would he be expected to send home and yet still survive? Do you think his parents are so dumb living out in the country that they donтАЩt know the value of the baht and what they believe their beautiful sons to be doing to be sending money home?
ItтАЩs pointless to invest money into a Thai boy unless you live there and heтАЩs one of your boyfriend(s) unless you donтАЩt teach him a few fundamentals with economics.
If heтАЩs sincere about supporting his parents the best way to secure long term money making employment is through having an education.
If you are providing that education then you are providing the tools the boy needs to support his family when they are old. As they are probably younger than you, they should probably be working and supporting themselves.
You shouldnтАЩt be paying your boy what heтАЩd be making, still working, putting on shows unless heтАЩs still putting these shows on for you nightly.
Communicating this to your boy is a whole other matterтАжтАж

Surfcrest

Let me share with you 3 alternatives I offered to my BS. Here are the outlines:

1) He can live with me, working as a house-boy for 10,000 B a month. By house-boy, I mean actually taking care of the household chores. ie. cleaning bathrooms, laundries, simple cooking etc. He would be free to work in the bars, to stay out late at nights or even not to sleep in. But I would have the option of having him, and paying him for each intimacy at the market rate. ( 1,000 B short time and 2,000 B for overnight)

2) A flat rate of 30,000 B a month, payable twice monthly. Plus shopping. For that, he needs to be with me 24/7. Being as a house-boy as well as my lover.

3) I pay 10,000 B to his mother in Udon each month. I hire outside cleaners to clean the house. He gets a nominal 1,000 B each week as pocket money. I pay for all his shopping and personal expenses within reasonable limits. He can go to school, and /or find a job outside the entertainment scene.

One condition that I insisted was that no friends nor family members would set foot in my house. Naturally, he is free to go out whenever he likes. Music is to be kept at a low vloume.

To my surprise, he selected number 3. We are in our third month together, he does not have a job outside, and shown little inclination of wanting one. School was talked about occasionally, then the topic cooled down. So far the total expenditure on shopping has not been unreasonable. I having been using it as an incentive program of sorts.

When asked about his choice; he felt that he is no-longer selling his body and gets a lot of satisfaction out of sharing my life.

A bit of background: he is 23 and has been working the bars in Pattaya/ Phuket since 17. I didnt asked any details. I am 53, retired in Pattaya. I first met him 9 months before making him the offers.

So far I am extremely happy with him, as a guardian of setting up home in Thailand, as a lover, as a friend and companion. I really have no reasons to see another boy....for now.

Hope you will find this useful.

I recently broached this subject with a young "masseur"- kinda unusual for me but he was a real beaut. Anyway, he said he couldn't leave his business unless I paid for everything- of course he quoted his rate for the high months, which was about 20K a month. The irony is that he was asking me for extra help because now in the low season he can't pay his rent. These kids need more math.

Maybe if you could get them to be logical, you could offer what they make on average, but don't get your hopes up.

[TrongpaiExpat]

One condition that I insisted was that no friends nor family members would set foot in my house.

Good luck on that one. Friends and family Thai style may be what you expect.

Thou, back in farang land, many years ago, when I was married my wife had one sister and two brothers that always seemed to show up at dinner time. One sister got in the habit of coming over every weekend with all her laundry to used my washer and dryer. She would bring her two kids and when a weeks worth of groceries were consumed, she would pack up and leave.

Often when we go out for dinner, my BF will tell me, at the last minute, that one of his friends wants to see us. I don't mind feeding one of his friends but often the friend brings a friend. Then out of the blue, another friend (this one my BF does not know) just happens to be walking by and joins us. That's generally the real hungry one and there are no qualms about him ordering more food and drinks.

In Issarn, I noticed that when food is put out, everyone near-by joins in, some bring something, other's do not. No one asks may I join you, and no one extends an invitation.

[Monty-old]

You said it was not love,So do not try to make it so.
Respect him, enjoy his company, And pay him, and keep him as a friend,If you are going to live here, you might just be lucky and find B/S. then you will have more problems, Just take your time.If it is going to happen IT WILL, As I know you are a nice & careing person.
Take Care.
Monty

[Dodger]

Rainwalker - Rainwalker - Rainwalker...what are you negotiating for?

You've found a boy who you can see anytime you chose on your own terms. If you were in love with him, my read on this would be totally different, but you stated several times...It's not a love thing.

I've been in a relationship with Boy Special for 5 years now and it looks like it may be winding to a close. I did my negotiating with him a year ago and my terms were pretty clear. He leaves the Pattaya bar scene and gets a normal job to start working with me on plans for the future, or forget it. I offered to send him enough money every month to cover his loom charges and a few extra bucks to stick in his pocket. Between the money I would have sent him and the money he would earn at a local coffee shop (minimal as the pay was) would have been enough for him to live very well on with a few extra bucks to put in the bank as well.

He agreed immediately with this plan, and shortly afterward we became engaged.

Four months passed after that discussion and he simply couldn't pull himself away from the electricity and glitter of the Pattaya nightlife. Really, that's the the bottom line. He worked for 3 whole days at the coffee shop and then informed me that he quit because he was bored to death. A few weeks later he was back doing dance performances in the same nightclub he worked at prior to our engagement. After hearing my response to this situation over the phone he immediately quit his job at the nightclub and has been spending the last few months sitting on his ass playing Play Station 2 games all day.

For the majority of Thai boys (Boy Special included) who stumble onto a place like Pattaya, their world simply explodes with excitement and opportunities. As you and I fully know, these boys can earn more money in one night than they could working their asses of on the farm for a month. And the icing on the cake is the shear fun involved with this newly found lifestyle. Being swept off to te islands for a few days of fun, partying with friends till all hours of the night...the disco's...the karaoke's, the motorbikes, the gold chains and cell phones, is all a far stretch from the realities of life back in rural Isaan. For this reason, it is nearly impossible for a young good looking boy to chuck it all away, regardless of the negotiating skills of his farang counterpart. If he's truly gay, then it's even more difficult, if not totally impossible.

I don't hold him to blame at all...well, maybe the part about him being dishonest, but not for the root cause of the problem If anything I blame myself for being so dam naive. What Boy Special wants (needs) is someone close to his own age that he can fall in love with and spend his life with. Someone like me can only offer a person with these needs one thing, and one thing only, and that's money. So many of the Thai boys we meet are willing to sacrifice their own inner happiness in life in exchange for enough money to give to their families. This is the sad realization that I've come to.

I'm not saying for a minute that because my relationship didn't work out that your relationship won't work either, because that would be a ridiculous assumption. I'm just sharing with you the truth about how I see things based on my own personal experiences. You can't negotiate a business deal with a persons heart...it simply defies nature.

When I returned for my April-May holiday I was back on the Butterfly trail hot and heavy. The few times Boy Special and I were together turned sour, primarily because of my disappointment in him (and myself) - and partially due to his insistence on manipulating the circumstances. In either case, we spent most of our time apart.

I guess the only real difference between our two relationships is that I was, and still am, in love with him.

What am I blabbering about???

Because they are so cute and have lovely young flesh. Duh.

Find a life partner you actually have something in common with, and fuck young boys on the side. Perfect solution, and one I espouse.

I advocate following the rules of the law. 18 is plenty young enough. 18 to 25 year are often cute, and have that lovely young flesh that I alluded to. You are the twisted one who assumed pedo from that. My personal opinion is that countries where the age of consent is 16 are more rational, but the law is the law. Pedophiles generally like "real" children as in prepubescents. I am happy I am not sexually attracted to such, but the truth is, some are, and those people have a real serious problem in more ways than one.

As far as being a person who loves young men, I have no apologies. The older you get, the more expensive these tastes become, but it is little different than a gourmet food preference. If you love cavior and foie gras, you are going to have to pay for alot for it. You might think people who are satisfied with cheeseburgers are better off, are their wallets surely are, but as long as it is legal, it is none of anybody's business!

[Impulse]

[As far as being a person who loves young men, I have no apologies. The older you get, the more expensive these tastes become, but it is little different than a gourmet food preference. If you love cavior and foie grao, you are going to have to pay for alot for it. You might think people who are satisfied with cheeseburgers are better off, are their wallets surely are, but as long as it is legal, it is none of anybody's business! ] Well i must disagree about the foie grao not being anybodys business.The boys are consenting adults if they are over eighteen,but the ducks being force fed against their will is not,and is an evil greedy practice.Some places are doing away with it and many places are not.I wish people would get over their hangups about sex and look how we treat living things that arnt our own species.

[As far as being a person who loves young men, I have no apologies. The older you get, the more expensive these tastes become, but it is little different than a gourmet food preference. If you love cavior and foie grao, you are going to have to pay for alot for it. You might think people who are satisfied with cheeseburgers are better off, are their wallets surely are, but as long as it is legal, it is none of anybody's business! ] Well i must disagree about the foie grao not being anybodys business.The boys are consenting adults if they are over eighteen,but the ducks being force fed against their will is not,and is an evil greedy practice.Some places are doing away with it and many places are not.I wish people would get over their hangups about sex and look how we treat living things that arnt our own species.
Well, I guess I agree with you. I don't actually like foie gras, I only used it as an example. But I do love lots of expensive foods, yellowtail sashimi, cavair, fine wine, good coffee, oysters, lobster, sharks fin (oops), well this could go on all day, so I will stop.

[ChrisUK]

Be Cautious

Dear Rainwalker,

I wondered what your plans were when you previously asked for comments on expenditure for the upcoming transfer to life in Thailand and included expenses for both long-term and temporary companions. I now realise what you had in mind and can only agree that this sort of mutually beneficial lifestyle for you, your long-term companion and a variety of temporary companions is what I would aspire to as well.

However, as soon as I had read your post and the following ones in the thread, I felt uneasy about it all for the following reasons:

Is he 'gay' and if not, will he really be able to devote his time solely to you? If he is, won't he want to maintain his lifestyle with his friends, including the farangs he has known through his work?

I know you to be a very generous and kind man and am not surprised you have both enjoyed the various activities you mention already, but doesn't this sway him from thinking logically and only concentrate on the financial and fun side of the relationship?

Do you want him to stay in his room and only visit you when you wish, or will it be that he ultimately joins you permanently in your accommodation? If so, won't this cause complications over conflicting needs, - especially, when you want some temporary 'other' companionship?

If you are paying for his education at university, presumably he will want to find a job, sooner rather than later, to practice his new found skills and to earn his own salary. I expect you are prepared and wish for this to happen, but how will you really feel when it does and he can no longer spend as much time with you?

He has chosen to work in a bar in the "sex worker industry" and you now want him to leave at his peak at 20. I'm not sure many would do that, even though they might say they would. The old clich├й keeps haunting my mind; "You can take the boy out of the bar, but you can't take the bar out of the boy."

Of course, as you know me, I'm ultra cautious about everything, but I seriously hope you have a good, long-term mutually beneficial relationship with this guy, together with the many other short-term ones alongside. Who knows, he/you might even like the occasional three-some! As I've said, it's a lifestyle I would love to pursue, funds permitting, but something tells me it will all end in tears!

I don't expect any prize as I haven't made any suggestions, - just commented with my thoughts, but I'll be at the Crazy Hat Contest and Booze-Up during the Pattaya Gay Festival.

In the meantime, I'll settle for the EuroPride Parade through London and Party in Soho on July 1st, when we're expecting a heat wave of 30+*C to remind us of the average temperature in Thailand.

Chris

Personally, if I ever get hooked up with a go go worker at a peak age, they would have to be a FAILED go go worker, hated the job, few offs, because otherwise I would fear they would miss it and regret the loss of the fun parts of it. And they would also likely to be spoiled in the money department. I have strange tastes so I think some of these failed ones are actually diamonds in the rough. I really don't (in general) enjoy the personalities of the so called called stars. Star what? Star whores.

I think this is contrary to Thai values I have observed. There doesn't seem to be much shame in being a star whore, lots of money to help relatives, but there does seem to be shame in being a failed whore. I guess it is the American in me rooting for the underdog.

Why would you PAY someone to move in with you? There are so many other ways to enjoy yourself without giving up your privacy and freedom. What am I missing here?

Why would you PAY someone to move in with you? There are so many other ways to enjoy yourself without giving up your privacy and freedom. What am I missing here?
I think if an older farang invites a younger, lower economic class Thai to live with him, of course he would be paying in so many ways. Why? Well, perhaps sick of the butterfly life. Perhaps really liking or "loving" the guy. Perhaps wanting a deeper companionship, and a closer window into Thai life. Thats like asking why anyone would marry.

But when you marry someone certain assumptions exist: namely the person you are marrying is devoted to you exclusively in a MUTUAL relationship. Expecting one of these boys to devote himself to you exclusively is expecting the impossible.

Don't get me wrong. They can provide delightful company. But inviting one of these young men to share your home is setting yourself up for problems you don't need. I guess I see it as a matter of perspective. I'm not criticizing those who choose to do so but I just have a difficult time appreciating the benefits when weighed against the limitations and high potential for problems.

But when you marry someone certain assumptions exist: namely the person you are marrying is devoted to you exclusively in a MUTUAL relationship. Expecting one of these boys to devote himself to you exclusively is expecting the impossible.

Don't get me wrong. They can provide delightful company. But inviting one of these young men to share your home is setting yourself up for problems you don't need. I guess I see it as a matter of perspective. I'm not criticizing those who choose to do so but I just have a difficult time appreciating the benefits when weighed against the limitations and high potential for problems.
You are correct if measured on a spreadsheet.
But these are the affairs of the heart (yes often delusional) and are usually beyond rationality, which many feel is overrated anyway.

What you say has a certain ring of truth. I have deluded myself involving affairs of the heart but no longer choose to do so. Of course I may be deluding myself in believing that I have any choice in the matter.

I think the discussion is getting a bit confused over inviting ANY younger, poorer Thai guy to live with you and inviting one who has been in the sex worker scene. I know several quite good relationships of the former type, and though they do involve monetary inequality (as many marriages do) they aren't obsessed with it. I think once the prostitute mentality has taken hold (sex=money, attention, easy work) then the guys are at risk of never being able to form normal relationships with foreigners again (if they are even actually gay).

RW,

If 20K baht per month is affordable for you, then give it a go. You seem to have a good head about what the relationship is and is not. It can be a learning experience for you, especially if you are not investing your heart. If not affordable, spell out what is affordable for you and see if the boy will agree.

Be clear about your expectations in regards to the time he spends with you and his sexual availabilty to you. Otherwise, I would not make too many rules.


Give it a month and see how it goes. Don't think too much. Enjoy yourself. And let us know how it goes.

Pete