Political Interest Lacking Here

[marti]

I enjoy discussing politics generally and certainly the politics of any place where I live. Unfortunately, no one on this site seems to have any interest in Thai politics or any politics for that matter. The only discussion of this nature that I can remember concerned Scotland's attempt to seceded from Great Britain.

The now-gone Baht Stop board had many posts relating to politics and I found it most informative. I'm not sure what happened to all of those guys when the board closed it's doors but I never see them post here or anywhere else. On second thought, I believe Bob used to post there occasionally.

On here it does not seem that a post goes anywhere if it does not involve sex. But, that must be what those who post here are interested in. So be it.

[Smiles]

Just below this thread you'll find a thread which is 39 pages long, has received 578 replies and has been viewed 28,292 times.
Have you participated on that thread? Have you read any of the posts and/or clicked on any of the links provided there, all of which are to do with Thailand's fascinating politics?
As well, If you type in the words "Thailand's politics" in the board search engine you will find 23 pages of numerous topics regarding Thai politics. Did you try that?

If you're going to discuss Thai politics you have to start at the very very top and speculate about what will happen when That Thing That Cannot Be Named takes place. Then you have to take into account the role of the traditional elites and estimate the extent to which they feel threatened by populism and how they have reacted to it and how that might play out in the immediate future especially given TTTCBN. Then there's corruption which is endemic in Thai society. Frankly I'll never have the vote in Thailand and neither will you. At least Scotland not only is close by where I am but I get a chance to tease someone who does have a stake. There's no one on this Board who has any direct role in Thailand!s politics and certainly no Thai whom I can tease. It's a dead duck, Marti.

[fountainhall]

If you're going to discuss Thai politics you have to start at the very very top and speculate about what will happen when That Thing That Cannot Be Named takes place.
Thai politics is in a state of limbo and since no one has a clue when TTTCBN may occur, it may well stay that way for quite some time. I noticed in the Bangkok Post yesterday that even the Prime Minister is tiptoeing around the issue of refusing to name names when it was perfectly clear he was referring to Thaksin senior for whom he clearly has little regard - if any.

If you're genuinely interested, Marti, I suggest you follow New Mandala (http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/)

[Oliver]

Baht-Stop is a great loss. I was able to discuss political issues there and engage in debate with a well-informed readership. I don't feel willing to here; this board is mainly (and understandably) concerned with gay life in Thailand. I have no problem with that - horses for courses. At the same time, I appreciate the Protests thread because it reminds us all that our micro-world is peopled by Thais whose own lives are, in many cases, pretty desperate in terms of life-chances, economic development and- now- political freedom.

Baht-Stop ... a well-informed readership ... :))

[Wim888]

Ridiculous! This forum has much discussion of politics, and some members, myself included, are very interested in politics.

[joe552]

marti, rather than complaining about the lack of political discussion on the board, why not post a topic and see who responds? I think many members are interested in Thai politics, and indeed politics in general. Start a conversation and see where it leads. You might be pleasantly surprised.

[latintopxxx]

...really....politics...in Thailand...really....get real, what ever you as a foreigner say has absolutely no effect, so stop even thinking about it. Just focus on what we are here for...beer and " boys" ....and btw...democracy isnt for everyone...some people are simply better off being ruled.

...really....politics...in Thailand...really....get real, what ever you as a foreigner say has absolutely no effect, so stop even thinking about it. Just focus on what we are here for...beer and " boys" ....and btw...democracy isnt for everyone...some people are simply better off being ruled.sweetness I'm not disagreeing with you...just each to his own...why must you be so opinionated.... :))

[Smiles]

marti, rather than complaining about the lack of political discussion on the board, why not post a topic and see who responds? I think many members are interested in Thai politics, and indeed politics in general. Start a conversation and see where it leads. You might be pleasantly surprised.
Joe ... he won't because he is not interested in discussing Thai politics in the least.
Marti is a winder-upper, and in this particular case he used the 'Politics Card' simply as a cover for the real reason he started this thread, which is to say, this part of his post:

" ... On here it does not seem that a post goes anywhere if it does not involve sex. But, that must be what those who post here are interested in ... "

[marti]

If you're going to discuss Thai politics you have to start at the very very top and speculate about what will happen when That Thing That Cannot Be Named takes place.
Unfortunately, this is a most dangerous topic to discuss without concern about being arrested and sent to prison for a very long time.

[marti]

If you're genuinely interested, Marti, I suggest you follow New Mandala (http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/)
komm, Thank you very much for this suggestion. It is most informative and covers many states and their political issues.

[catawampuscat]

Some farangs think it's interesting to discuss the minutiae of US politics. They carry on over
different US states governors, senators, even House Representives endlessly. Often farangs
from the UK or Australia are present in the same group but doesn't stop the political talk,
even when many have no idea or interest.
Currently, the 20 possible candidates for the next
presidential race are a choice topic. When you see farangs nodding out and you're on your
bandwagon for Bernie Sanders, it's a sign that you're boring everyone to an early death and
taking advantage of their politeness when they want to tell you to shut the fuck up.

But for those who are interested in the US primaries, you can't go past Five Thirty Eight - take this article as an example http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ric ... -has-come/ (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/rick-santorums-2016-bid-shows-just-how-far-the-gop-field-has-come/)

[Smiles]

" ... komm, Thank you very much for this suggestion. It is most informative and covers many states and their political issues ... "
Komm( ??! :-C ), conssider (ssp?) your ass well-kissed.

[oldfarang]

I don't give a damn about Thai politics or even my own countries politics. Seen too much BS over all the past decades.

All paid and bought for (some/most countries) and the rest care only about themselves (re-election) and lie everyday.

Example, not my country, thank God, USA, bought and paid for each and every politician. The multinationals/rich/0.1% elite (worldwide) rule.
Then you got the comedy channel "Fox News" great for the oldies, who want confirmation of their backwards ideas.
Nice website here: http://www.dailykos.com/ , very democratic, but as Fox "fair and balanced" is not really there. http://www.dailykos.com/ are fair, just not balanced, since it are mostly articles written by people like you and me (or more like me maybe).

We all know the world is a shit hole and 99.99999% of all people only care about themselves when it comes down to it. That includes yes probably all of you readers and maybe 1 will be different.

We (mostly younger generation, because older might have kids) Gay people are lucky, no worries about our (grand)kids, since we don't ( or do sorry) have them. No real responsibilities. It is for the best, since the next 1-2 generations will have one hell of a shitty world to deal with and most will die of hunger, no water or wars.

I know some of you will not agree, but that is fine. I hope you are right and I am wrong.
It is like the 0.1% worldwide people in charge of this world, pff global warming does not exist (well it does, but we won't tell you, because my family has money and means and we will survive). HaHaHa. We are all in a slavery system, slavery with "freedom", especially the bottom 99% of the world population.

Not sure, but as I think Bob Marley sang:
"Don't worry be happy":
[youtube:1qletphu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo4OnQpwjkc[/youtube:1qletphu]

or a dreamer, like John Lennon:
[youtube:1qletphu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLgYAHHkPFs[/youtube:1qletphu]

Sorry I tried several ways to get the youtubes here, but I guess I am just to old to get it to work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo4OnQpwjkc Bob Marley

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLgYAHHkPFs John Lennon

Remove the s in https SC

[Dalewood]

Catty,

I happen to like Bernie Sanders, though he is probably quite a bit to my left. I have been following him since he was mayor of Burlington, VT. He is against the TPP as am I. You all do not want me to get on my political soapbox.

[Impulse]

What if Latin Top tripped on one of the many potholes and amnesia caused him to not remember where his money is ? This forcing him to sell his ass to survive. But now he has become a bottom, complaining to the Lady boys how cheap the sex tourists are. :))

pssst This technically is against the Rules now. http://sawatdeenetwork.com/forum/posting-rules-guidelines-amendment-2015-t32955.html#p300954

What a sheltered life you must lead oldfarang. I know a substantial number of gay men with children. If I'm not mistaken at least two past or current members have 'fessed up to having Fuck Trophies

[Surfcrest]

Not sure, but as I think Bob Marley sang:
"Don't worry be happy":

No, it was actually Bobby McFerrin - Don't Worry Be Happy :ymsick:

[youtube:1cnzqasg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU[/youtube:1cnzqasg]

Are you thinking about Bob Marley's "Three Little Birds"? :YMAPPLAUSE:

[youtube:1cnzqasg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaGUr6wzyT8[/youtube:1cnzqasg]

Surfcrest

[Surfcrest]

Baht-Stop is a great loss. I was able to discuss political issues there and engage in debate with a well-informed readership. I don't feel willing to here; this board is mainly (and understandably) concerned with gay life in Thailand. I have no problem with that - horses for courses. At the same time, I appreciate the Protests thread because it reminds us all that our micro-world is peopled by Thais whose own lives are, in many cases, pretty desperate in terms of life-chances, economic development and- now- political freedom.
I enjoyed some of the discussion over at the Baht-Stop over the years and especially Hedda's view on US politics. One important factor to probably note here is that our membership comes from all over the world and probably has far more members from Europe and other parts of the globe than the Baht-Stop did.

This is today's recent visitor's map to demonstrate the demographics of where the Sawatdee membership and visitors come from.
I'm hoping that's "Aunty" down in New Zealand :)

Surfcrest

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/Surfcrest/SawatdeeMap%20May2015.jpg

[Oliver]

It was always evident that Baht-Stop's active membership was limited; however, in terms of expertise in particular issues, that membership was unusually well-informed. I found the discussions of US politics fascinating- and reassuring, considering the dominance of Faux-News- while I learnt more about Thai politics than from any other source. And the fact that I was (apparently) the only member who had extensive experience of being in Palestine for many years enabled me to comment freely on my experiences- and I understood from messages received that members (particularly US-based ones where the media is so constrained) were appreciative of this.
At the same time, I rarely commented on some of issues I raise here- entertainment, boyfriends, travel and so on. As I said before, horses for courses; one board may not fit all requirements.

[Rogie]

At any given time, Thailand's resident population of ex-pats and those not living there who only visit her on a regular basis, are in a state of flux. As ex-pats leave others arrive to settle. It would be a stupid person IMO who decided to sell up back home and move 100% to Thailand who didn't keep abreast of all-things-Thai. . . and so (some degree at least) of a working knowledge of its politics (including the elephant in the room as already mentioned) is essential. Having visited the country, presumably many times, and become familiar with all its fascinations as well as frustrations, I would advise anyone contemplating the move to throw away those rose-tinted specs and make sure your political antennae are finely tuned.

As for Baht Stop, I am sorry to say it never realised its potential. I did a check once to see how many members who'd joined in the initial rush were still regular posters after a year; not many. For the casual reader of the Board, trying to make sense of it all, it was a constant battle between the sensible posters, some of whom as already mentioned, were really excellent, and the loonies, many or most of whom seemed to spout their nonsense from behind a clutch of hydras. And the Baht Stop Moderator policy? Hit or miss? I'll go for a miss. Far too idealistic and hands-off. It looked good in some lights and appealed to many, but in practice was unworkable.

[Brad the Impala]

I'm hoping that's "Aunty" down in New Zealand :)

Surfcrest

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/Surfcrest/SawatdeeMap%20May2015.jpg

What an interesting resource. Wonder who/were that person is on the extreme left, in the middle of the Pacific?

Doesn't seem to have been anyone in Greece in this period.

[fountainhall]

With the various comments re the lack of political discourse here, let me start one ball rolling - just to see where it might go.

I am always more than slightly surprised when those who in the past have engaged in political debate about Thailand have almost always taken the view that democracy is a rare bird here, one that is unlikely to rise much off the ground so as to give the ordinary man in the street a real say in who is elected to govern him. The assumption which follows IMHO is that one-man-one-vote is not only a necessity, it is a God-given right.

Yet, I can think of few posters over the years who have taken the trouble to put any Asian democracy into any kind of context, barring a western one. We all know that it took Britain centuries until 1928 to extend voting rights to the entire adult population. In the USA, it seems full enfranchisement did not effectively occur on a permanent basis until the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Democracy, democratic institutions like the rule of law, a functioning and mostly corruption-free judicial system, the right to vote for elected representatives to govern various aspects of a peopleтАЩs lives are thus relatively recent. We value them and consider democracy the only viable form of government, despite it being, in Winston ChurchillтАЩs view, the worst form of government тАЬexcept for all the others.тАЭ

In Asia, democratic principles have rarely been part of its historical development. Kings, emperors, generals and similar autocrats have ruled the roost for millennia. As these dictatorships started to weaken, western colonial powers moved in imposing yet another kind of autocratic rule. The concept of citizens actually having any kind of say in who rules over them therefore remains very new.

When I arrived in Asia at the start of 1979, South Korea was governed by a military dictatorship. Of many visits to Seoul in the 1980s, the two things I most recall are the lingering effect of tear gas in hotels close to the university district and attempts to get a taxi after 10:00 pm in order to avoid being shot at the stroke of midnight when the curfew started in earnest. Democracy was only introduced in 1988 in time for the Olympic Games but not put into effect till some years later.

Taiwan was under the iron fist of the gangster and looter Chiang Kai Shek. Here again, there was martial law and a nightly curfew. Indonesia тАЬvotedтАЭ in a pair of military dictators in Sukarno and Suharto, the latter ousting the former. The Philippines was governed by one of the most corrupt Asian dictators of all, Ferdinand Marcos. As he enriched himself and got rid of his opponents and his wife looted the Treasury to spend on her massive shopping trips and on her so-called attempts to bring beauty into the lives of ordinary Filipinos with lavish projects like the ill-starred Film Festival, the levels of poverty in that blighted country became truly horrific. But then the Marcos regime was propped up, as were those of Chiang and the others, by the USA and other western powers, desperate for allies in the Cold War against what was perceived (ill-advisedly in many cases) as the advance of Communism. Even when Marcos tried to overturn the popular vote in the 1986 election, it was only when People Power took to the streets that the US forced him to flee to the safety of Hawaii.

Yet, look at that countryтАЩs history of democracy post-Marcos! Little development, a few families still controlling most of the wealth and the power, poverty on a vast scale and yet a population that voted in a popular actor as President. When he was found to be a crook and thrown in jail, his Vice President took over promising a new era of integrity and honesty. Her two terms were racked with allegations of corruption and electoral fraud. She continues to fight charges of electoral fraud. If found guilty she will spend the rest of her days in jail.

And what of our other neighbours to the South? Malaysia has been in the grip of the UMNO party ever since independence, the party which gives biased preference to ethnic Malays over its large indigenous Chinese population. It has no intention of giving up power тАУ as Anwar Ibrahim, once long-time Prime Minister Mahatir MohammedтАЩs anointed successor, can attest as his sits in jail after his second (trumped up) sodomy conviction. It is his wife who is now leading the anti-UMNO opposition.

Next door, Singapore has also been ruled since independence by just one party. In its first few decades there was just one opposition MP, a lawyer. He had the misfortune to speak out against the government and its policies on many occasions. For this he was twice stripped of his seat, sued, made bankrupt, sent to jail. For all the freedom its citizens seem to enjoy, I leave it to others to decide which are fictions. If you are in the international media business, you have to be extremely careful of what you say about Singapore. Get on the wrong side of the government and you find your publication either banned or its sales severely restricted. It also means your paper/magazine is issued with all your advertising stripped out.

As the late Lee Kwan Yew informed Hong KongтАЩs Foreign CorrespondentsтАЩ Club in 1990 when questioned about the lack of press freedom in his state, тАЬAll I am saying is that since you are entering my game, you will play in accordance with my rules, and my rules require that I will have the right to rebut what you have said, whether you like it or not. And if you donтАЩt like it, I will restrict you.тАЭ

Like many I have huge admiration for what Lee and his party have achieved in developing Singapore from a swamp into one of the most envied countries in the world. Is it a democracy in the western sense? No! Are any of the Asian countries democracies in the western sense? I think not. The basic essentials for democratic rule are simply not in place in most Asian countries, although some are certainly better than others.

Lee himself was also fond of talking about the differences between western democracy and what he termed тАЬdemocracy with Asian characteristics.тАЭ In other words, we play the game our way тАУ not yours. Another of his comments, this time to the Wall Street Journal -


In his view, economic success and social order fully justified whatever state controls were necessary, even if a leader sometimes had to act in an arbitrary, even dictatorial, manner. тАЬWe have to lock up people without trial whether they are communists, whether they are language chauvinists, whether they are religious extremists,тАЭ he bluntly said in 1986. тАЬIf you donтАЩt do that, the country would be in ruins.тАЭ
http://www.wsj.com/articles/lee-kuan-ye ... 1427475547 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/lee-kuan-yew-the-man-who-remade-asia-1427475547)

As his son now rules that particular roost, there is presumably little chance of any change.

I have rambled on at length (and yes, some will blast me for that) only because I do believe it is pointless westerners making pronouncements that one-man-one-vote - without all the other requirements for an effective democracy to function on an on-going basis - is the solution to a nationтАЩs ills. You cannot criticize without taking into account a whole host of social, cultural, historical, regional and other factors.

The world is now witnessing тАУ and will continue to do so for some years yet тАУ the ghastly results of the disastrous attempt of Bush Jnr., Blair and their cohorts to instill democracy into a region ruled for the most part by a slew of dictators, a part of the world little understood by western bureaucrats and policy makers prior to their intervention. Asia has moved on from the equally disastrous and ill-informed western-waged wars in Korea, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia and the insurgency in Malaya. But viewed from a western perspective, many of its democracies are at root just a cover for what some might consider enlightened dictatorships.

[Wim888]

Some farangs think it's interesting to discuss the minutiae of US politics. They carry on over
different US states governors, senators, even House Representives endlessly. Often farangs
from the UK or Australia are present in the same group but doesn't stop the political talk,
even when many have no idea or interest.
Currently, the 20 possible candidates for the next
presidential race are a choice topic. When you see farangs nodding out and you're on your
bandwagon for Bernie Sanders, it's a sign that you're boring everyone to an early death and
taking advantage of their politeness when they want to tell you to shut the fuck up.

Yes, some farangs, and especially Americans, go on and on about American politics.
It does not bother me.
I am not American, although I lived in the country for about 10 years, and can speak English with an American accent. American politics influeces all of us, because of American power. Thus, I think it's important to know what is going on.....

[Wim888]

I'm hoping that's "Aunty" down in New Zealand :)

Surfcrest

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/Surfcrest/SawatdeeMap%20May2015.jpg

What an interesting resource. Wonder who/were that person is on the extreme left, in the middle of the Pacific?

Doesn't seem to have been anyone in Greece in this period.

The person in the middle of the Pacific is from Hawaii--a place with many drop-dead gorgeous guys......

[marti]

" ... komm, Thank you very much for this suggestion. It is most informative and covers many states and their political issues ... "
Komm( ??! :-C ), conssider (ssp?) your ass well-kissed.
Always fun to have my old buddy smiles add to my OP. He just loves to tease me and get in on board action.

[oldfarang]

What a sheltered life you must lead oldfarang. I know a substantial number of gay men with children. If I'm not mistaken at least two past or current members have 'fessed up to having Fuck Trophies

Sheltered life, me, no not really. Just in the closet as so many my age. That is why many older gay farangs, did marry and had kids. It was expected from them. Many oldies I know or knew have kids. Some are still in contact others are not after their coming out.
I my youth I had a lady and we where together for many years, never married. She left me (thank God). I now/afterwards think she suspected I was gay (erection problems with her). I used her leaving as an excuse to my family, friends and work to stay alone (so broken hearted 8-} ).
As mentioned I started going to Thailand at the age of 40 (1985). My life was pure enjoyment after that. 2-3 long holidays every year. I really come out after I toke my boyfriend back home, but I did not care. Some people stayed and others left for good.

I have been gay active since I was about 20 (besides fooling around as an teenager, as most boy teens do).
I have had a great life and no real regrets. :ymhug:

[joe552]

fountainhall, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts. It was an interesting read.

[Brad the Impala]

Komm( ??! :-C ), conssider (ssp?) your ass well-kissed.

Well that's a bit of role reversal for the old boy!

[Rogie]

With the various comments re the lack of political discourse here, let me start one ball rolling - just to see where it might go.

Are any of the Asian countries democracies in the western sense? I think not. The basic essentials for democratic rule are simply not in place in most Asian countries, although some are certainly better than others

You didn't mention Hong Kong. Is that a lost cause post-1997 do you think, and do you think if it had had stayed out of China's grasp as per pre-97 its potential future would have been much different now we are in 2015, 18 years later?

[Rogie]

I have had a great life and no real regrets.

That's great. Not everyone can say that!

But I note you mentioned in another post you have little or no interest in Thai politics, yet are considering moving to Thailand, probably Pattaya.

Do you read anything else, other than this Board, that's Thai-related? The reason I ask is it's all well and good having been a visitor for 30 years, but the past is no guide to the future. The other side of the coin of course is that the past can be (in retrospect) a very accurate predictor of the future, and in the case of Thailand that stands a good chance of being true, but I wouldn't want to be bet my life on it!

[fountainhall]

You didn't mention Hong Kong. Is that a lost cause post-1997 do you think, and do you think if it had had stayed out of China's grasp as per pre-97 its potential future would have been much different now we are in 2015, 18 years later?
It's certainly the territory (as the British administrators always used to call it) that I know best and which I watched develop at first hand over the last 18 years of British "rule" and the first 4 of Chinese "rule".

First, there is zero way Hong Kong could have stayed out of China's grasp - unless Deng Xiao-ping had volunteered to extend the lease to the British. Unlike the ceding in perpetuity of Hong Kong and then the part of Kowloon as far as what became known as Boundary Street following the first two Opium Wars, the New Territories lease was for a fixed period. This was an international treaty which Britain could not unilaterally break. The Chinese would not have stood for it, and neither would world opinion. We are told that Margaret Thatcher looked at the possibility of giving China back the New Territories but keeping the rest. As all her advisers agreed, that was stupidity on her part as it would have been impossible for Hong Kong and the southern part of Kowloon to survive on their own, so interlinked were they with both the New Territories and with southern China which by then was supplying all of its water and most of its food. It was also where all of Hong Kong's manufacturing had been relocated.

The Chinese had always regarded all 3 treaties which gave Hong Kong to the UK as "unequal". Morally there is no question now that for Britain to have fought wholly one-sided wars based entirely on forcing another country to accept opium instead of silver in payment for its exports was utterly wrong. For the Chinese the return of Hong Kong in its entirety was far more than a matter of just "face". It was the righting of an historical wrong. China held all four ace cards in the negotiations.

In my view, the present protests about universal suffrage in 2017 have come about directly as a result of the manipulations of the last Governor, Christopher Patten. I do not know the precise wording of the clauses in the Joint Declaration on Hong Kong's future and so cannot be specific as to what it states re 2017. What we do know is that Patten went through every phrase in the Declaration trying to find loopholes which he could exploit to help spur a fledgling democratic movement. We know this now because unknown to everyone at the time, he had secretly permitted a BBC reporter Jonathan Dimbleby and a documentary film crew to be at his side for the better part of a year as he went through this exercise. Thus Dimbleby and his team became privy to what were essentially UK state secrets! The resultant film and book "The Last Governor" will have made Patten a lot of money!

Patten's tinkering and behind-the-scenes encouragement of a democracy movement at a time when he was supposed to be preparing for a smooth transition in 1997 was not unnaturally vilified by the Chinese who, I believe rightly, accused him of trying to sabotage the 1984 Agreement. Even his Prime Minister in Britain, John Major, was against what he was doing and twice tried to bring him back to the UK, moves Patten fiercely and successfully resisted..

Would there be so much discussion in Hong Kong now about the choosing of the next Chief Executive without Patten's manipulations? Hard to say - but I reckon not. Many in Hong Kong frequently asked: if Britain had really wanted to develop democracy, why did it not start doing so long before Patten arrived? Well, it had indeed started a couple of decades earlier, but not in any meaningful way.

Britain's exit from Hong Kong, the Patten escapades notwithstanding, was honourable. It left the new Special Administrative region of China with a superb legal system based on British common law, a free press, an excellent education and housing infrastructure, one of the world's freest and most competitive economies in a business-friendly environment, a mostly corruption-free civil service and massive financial reserves. To its credit, China also lived up to its responsibilities following the handover. Although divisions of the PeopleтАЩs Liberation Army had crossed the border on the stroke of midnight on June 30/July 1, we never saw any troops. They were under strict instructions to stay out of sight in uniform, only venturing out on their days off when they would usually wear jeans and T-shirts. If we saw any tall, slim, handsome guys looking somewhat lost, we always knew they were from the PLA! :ymparty:

But Patten had let the cat out of the bag and now we are witnessing the result. Is it a тАЬlost causeтАЭ as far as democracy is concerned? In the western sense, yes. China, especially under its present leader, will not tolerate any form of full western style democracy in Hong Kong. One of Xi Jin-pingтАЩs overriding objectives is to ensure the country stays together. He faces huge obstacles internally. But as many have noted, he is a far more determined leader than his predecessor. He will not budge on Hong Kong.

[Up2U]

Here's an interesting video on Thai politics from a Thai expat forced to live abroad. Given recently at the Foreign Correspondents Club in Hong Kong.

https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=8dnjgPcL7ac

[youtube:3qgwoinb]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dnjgPcL7ac[/youtube:3qgwoinb]

[fountainhall]

Here's an interesting video on Thai politics from a Thai expat forced to live abroad. Given recently at the Foreign Correspondents Club in Hong Kong.
I click on the link and can not get it - even using a proxy. Censored I expect.

[Up2U]

Here's an interesting video on Thai politics from a Thai expat forced to live abroad. Given recently at the Foreign Correspondents Club in Hong Kong.
I click on the link and can not get it - even using a proxy. Censored I expect.
Worked for me, didn't use my vpn. You can always go to youtube.com and search for fcchk(foreign correspondents club Hong Kong)

This is today's recent visitor's map to demonstrate the demographics of where the Sawatdee membership and visitors come from.A rather naive analysis, I'm afraid. It shows the location of the servers used to connect to SGT. For those of us who use Tor (or even VPN) it simply shows the location of the last server in the chain. Many of my friends in Thailand use a VPN so as to stop any opportunity for the military to spy on them or restrict the sites they choose to visit. Others use it for banking, their banks being suspicious of transactions originating in Thailand

With the various comments re the lack of political discourse here, let me start one ball rolling - just to see where it might go. Have you read this short article Why democratic elections are always flawed (http://timharford.com/2015/05/why-democratic-elections-are-always-flawed/)?

[fountainhall]

You can always go to youtube.com and search for fcchk(foreign correspondents club Hong Kong)
As a member of the HK FCC, I should have realised that!

The speaker does bring up a number of important issues. Understandably, our ability to discuss them here is limited. However, I do think with careful wording we can mention some.

ItтАЩs perfectly acceptable for any speaker on a particular topic to highlight those issues which reinforce his case and play down others. The speaker here clearly represents one side of the political spectrum. However, when you compare the start of the speech with his answer to one of the questions, itтАЩs clear he sometimes gets his knickers in a bit of a twist.

At the start he states the reason for the street protests in November 2013 was to bring down the Yinglick government. ThatтАЩs not at all the case, even though it eventually morphed into it. In fact, the reason was the proposed blanket amnesty bill which would have pardoned a host of politicians from both sides of the political divide, including Thaksin senior. As crucially, those responsible for the killings during the 2010 protests would also be pardoned тАУ and so the Bill angered both red and yellow. For Yingluck, the Bill was virtually her last throw of that particular dice since all previous attempts to get her brother back had failed.

Yet, answering a question at the end about the rice-pledging scheme, the speaker is all but forced to confirm that the amnesty bill was indeed the initial spark for the street protests. Of that scheme he fudges and more or less absolves Yingluck (тАЬnot the brightest Prime MinisterтАЭ adding тАЬshe is not stupid either!тАЭ) of blame. The questioner suggests that she wrecked the economy with тАЬa bungled catastrophic economic policy that has ruined ThailandтАЩs rice industry.тАЭ The speaker agrees the rice pledging scheme was the biggest mistake of her government but he refuses to go into whether is was, as he says, mere negligence or corruption. Yet if it was negligence, he does not give any reason why her government pressed ahead with the scheme at such outrageously high levels of subsidy when every international expert in such matters was predicting precisely what eventually happened!

He then makes what I consider his most ridiculous suggestion тАУ that if the rice-pledging scheme is the reason for her impeachment, that should have been the reason for the initial street protests rather than the amnesty bill! That makes absolutely zero sense to me! He then admits he has no idea what damage the scheme has done to the economy, and rather waffles through the rest of the answer to get it back to his agenda.

I also have concerns about his comments regarding his being summoned to appear before the new government. We all know Thais enjoy a bit of fun, but to put on his Facebook page that he would not attend and instead send his chihuahua, a suggestion that was bound to become public тАУ as it did - was surely the height of stupidity. He is Thai. He is a senior academic. He knew the situation. He knew all about the importance of тАЬfaceтАЭ. He more than naively says he thought it was a joke! Under military rule, thatтАЩs a more than stupid joke! Of his subsequent arrest warrant and revocation of his passport, I think no comment can be made - but I put it in for balance.

I find it equally strange that he implies he does not like the idea that the new constitution would give greater power to the independent National Anti-Corruption Commission. Nor does he seem to like the idea of its permitting independent parliamentary candidates not allied to political parties, as he thinks these will dilute power and make the life of future governments тАЬdifficultтАЭ. How on earth can any declared democrat be exclusively in favour of citizens being able to stand for parliament only if a he or she belongs to one of the major political parties?

[Up2U]

I think we can all agree the Yingluck's downfall was self-inflicted by her complete misread of public sentiment (and including her own party) and the amnesty plan was the catalyst. Let's remember the plan to expunge anything Thaksin-related by the royalists, elites, military factions, etc. were planned with Yingluck's election in 2010 per Suthep Thaugsuban.

I agree the full implications of the rice pledging scheme were not known at the time of the initial street protests and the amnesty bill should have been(and was) the motivating factor for the protesters.

[Surfcrest]

This is today's recent visitor's map to demonstrate the demographics of where the Sawatdee membership and visitors come from.A rather naive analysis, I'm afraid. It shows the location of the servers used to connect to SGT. For those of us who use Tor (or even VPN) it simply shows the location of the last server in the chain. Many of my friends in Thailand use a VPN so as to stop any opportunity for the military to spy on them or restrict the sites they choose to visit. Others use it for banking, their banks being suspicious of transactions originating in Thailand
And a naive guess yourself of all the tools I have at my disposal. Hopefully you aren't trying to skirt around the question I'm still waiting for an answer from you for ;)

Surfcrest

Hopefully you aren't trying to skirt around the question I'm still waiting for an answer from you for Haven't your tools told you I deleted your PM without reading it? I did the same to Neal's as well, so no need to feel singled out

[Smiles]

" ... Haven't your tools told you I deleted your PM without reading it? ... "
Just a pussy. What on earth are you afraid of?

[a447]

As a member has already pointed out, Kommie did not appear on the map, despite him telling us he's in Greece.

So what did he do? He panicked and came up with an excuse as to why. But as we've often seen with Kommie's explanations, it is highly implausible.

Why would you need to use Tor in Greece?

According to its website, Tor is used to hide your activities from the government and get around internet censorship. As such, it is used by arms dealers, drug dealers and paedophiles.

Why would anyone see the need to browse the Web anonymously in Greece, of all places?? Why would anyone need to hide their ISP address on this site?

Just wondering.

[Surfcrest]

Hopefully you aren't trying to skirt around the question I'm still waiting for an answer from you for Haven't your tools told you I deleted your PM without reading it? I did the same to Neal's as well, so no need to feel singled out
And you recall what happened to Sooty under Neal's ownership, so don't be surprised by what happens next!
Don't you wish you read it now?

Surfcrest

Real men don't make threats Surfcrest, they just act

[Brad the Impala]

Real men don't make threats Surfcrest, they just act

Is that a line from your literary circle, or have you just been watching too many John Wayne movies!

[Dalewood]

To all you political types....Denny Hastert, former leader of the Republican Party in the US lower house, is facing serious allegations of an inappropriate relationship with a young man. Serious enough that he has paid the guy over US $3 million to keep him quiet. While in office, Hastert supported various anti-gay legislation. It is still unclear how old the young man was at the time of the encounters.

[fountainhall]

Re the Hastert case, a lot of media comment is centering on a TV interview last November and this weird call made by a man named Bruce -

[youtube:1bdci4rq]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1miAo9bCK0E[/youtube:1bdci4rq]

[christianpfc]

My interest in current politics is limited (but I'm interested in history up to World War II), I do not actively read news about politics. I certainly did not come to Thailand because I'm interested in Thai politics!

But I read the other comments with interest. The times when Whites tried to convert others to Christianity are fortunately over (at the least the violent parts, now it's only subdued and low scale), but now Whites try to force Democracy on other people, with little success.

[cdnmatt]

Others use it for banking, their banks being suspicious of transactions originating in Thailand

No they don't. If you don't believe me, give it a try. Open up Tor, and fire off a wire transfer, or even a PayPal payment. See what happens. I bet the transfer doesn't go through, and you spend the next hour of your life on the phone trying to get your account unlocked.

heh, shit...

Others use it for banking, their banks being suspicious of transactions originating in Thailand

No they don't. If you don't believe me, give it a try. Open up Tor, and fire off a wire transfer, or even a PayPal payment. See what happens. I bet the transfer doesn't go through, and you spend the next hour of your life on the phone trying to get your account unlocked.
Yes I see where the confusion lies, I was referring to using a VPN for banking but having put it in parentheses it was clear in my mind but not for the reader

[a447]

There's no confusion, Kommie.

You lied. And blatantly at that.

The proof is in the pronoun "it" which refers directly back to Tor, a proper noun.

If you were referring back to to "a" VPN, you would use "one".

Where's your "literary colleague" when you need him!

Lol

Why don't you just stick to the truth? It saves having to come up with implausible excuses all the time. It makes life so much easier.

BTW, are you really reporting from Greece, or did you never really leave home? Are the Greek trip reports just more fantasy?

[cdnmatt]

Yes I see where the confusion lies, I was referring to using a VPN for banking but having put it in parentheses it was clear in my mind but not for the reader

Same thing goes with a VPN. If you normally log in from say your home in New York, then one day login via a VPN, your account is either going to get locked or at the very least flagged for internal review. You can use a VPN, but you have to clear it with the bank / financial institution first, so they can set your account to allow VPN logins.

Trust me, I develop tools like this for a living. We know full well if you're using a Tor exit node, VPN, proxy of another kind, behind a company network and firewall, just hanging out at home, etc. We might not be able to determine your location, but we can definitely determine whether or not you're trying to hide your location.

Holy crap Matt I'll get Bank of America to contact you straight away! I've been transacting with them via VPN monthly for at least the past 10 years with no questions asked. But you know best, of course :))

Trust me, I develop tools like this for a living.I forgot Matt to congratulate you on your meteoric rise in the world of computing, and all from little old ... where is it these days? Rattanaburi? Only a few short years ago Matt's work was maintaining porn sites (http://sawatdeenetwork.com/forum/post282081.html?hilit=porn#p282081), and now look at him. The banks of the world are beating a path to his door for his tools. Still, he hasn't made his fortune, as we know when he bleats about his inability to make a living in the First World month after month after month.

And speaking of tools, I guess a447 will be along any minute now to offer his pearls of wisdom.

[a447]

I see you've gone on another posting rampage about me across a number of threads today. I think you've actually outdone yourself....lol. My post above must have really hit a raw nerve. What did Shakespeare say about protesting ladies?

And Kommie, couldn't you just kick yourself for ever mentioning Tor? In trying to defend yourself the lies just get bigger and bigger.

Looks like you've been well and truly sprung, eh?

Keep digging.

Lol

BTW, thanks for posting the link above. I hope lots of members click on it. It contains stunning examples of your hypocrisy.

There goes your big toe!

[Nirish guy]

And hell if its about going back and quoting old quotes from cdnmatt personally I thought the one below fairly eloquently sums up his feelings and attitude towards you Kommie lol


Ummm... not sure what to say here, except that I'm quite confident there's nothing I can say that will please you. If you want to have an actual conversation, I'm more than happy to do so, but if you just want to be a dick head, then you can go fuck yourself.

[a447]

This one's not bad, either:


you sure are a miserable cunt, aren't ya?

Lol

[fountainhall]

. . . viewed from a western perspective, many of its democracies are at root just a cover for what some might consider enlightened dictatorships.
Ref my first article about Asia and democracy, there is an interesting article in today's Bangkok Post about the tactics the new dictators around the world use to ensure their grip on power. Unlike Stalin, Mao and Hitler who thought little of using fear and mass murder to stay in power, the new autocrats included in the article - like Putin, Erdogan in Turkey, Mahatir in Malaysia and Lee in Singapore - got to power in reasonably fair elections but then concentrate power, stifle opposition through endless legal tricks and endless court proceedings, and eliminate checks and balances without resort to major violence.

The two authors are Professors in Paris and Los Angeles. They suggest the west needs to consider its role in enabling them to stay in power, although I reckon the methods they outline will be singularly unsuccessful!

http://www.pressreader.com/thailand/ban ... 3/TextView (http://www.pressreader.com/thailand/bangkok-post/20150531/281801397565133/TextView)

[Up2U]

editorial
Look who's attacking the Shinawatras now
The Nation June 1, 2015
Leftist Somsak Jeamteerasakul has landed another heavy blow on Thaksin
The accusation that Thaksin Shinawatra is himself an "elite" who is simply better than others at hiding behind the poor is not new. But what is surprising is that a hardcore leftist is now saying this. In his most stinging attack against the Shinawatras yet, Somsak Jeamteerasakul asserted that the clan is no different from those who the family's members claim are hell-bent on destroying them. The sharp criticism is a blow as big as - if not bigger - than what Thaksin, speaking in South Korea, tried to land on those who "conspired" to remove his sister Yingluck Shinawatra from power.

To sum Somsak's latest statement up, he said that while anti-Shinawatra sentiment among many groups was real, and their desire to undermine the clan was strong, only the Shinawatras could put away the Shinawatras. Gone were the days, Somsak said, when a small group of people could sit down and successfully plot to oust someone. Public opinion, according to Somsak, has played an increasingly bigger role in politics, and the Shinawatras should go beyond the conspiracy theory to review their own serious flaws when democracy is concerned.

Somsak noted that movements and plots against the Yingluck administration amounted to little before the controversial Amnesty Bill came along. That bill sought to provide a blanket political amnesty, meaning that while it would benefit Thaksin's political rivals, it would whitewash him, too, Somsak said....... (read more)......

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion ... 61343.html (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Look-whos-attacking-the-Shinawatras-now-30261343.html)

[PeterUK]

Very sensible comments by Somsak - only the chances of the Shinawatras reforming themselves are as remote as those of any other greedy, power-obsessed elitist group in Thailand doing the same thing.

[fountainhall]

Somsak noted that movements and plots against the Yingluck administration amounted to little before the controversial Amnesty Bill came along.
As we heard in the recent speech of the academic at the Hong Kong Foreign Correspondents' Club, the mantra of the Thaksin supporters now seems to be that even the spontaneous November 2013 street protests against the amnesty bill were an attempt to get rid of the Yingluck government. They weren't!

Thaksin's recent comments in Seoul were extremely stupid, the ramblings of an angry man used to having his own way, of pulling the strings from afar and clearly now becoming more and more desperate about the increasing unlikelihood of his return. Indeed, his actions remind me of another power-hungry autocrat used to getting his own way and visibly frustrated that others don't agree with him.

Last week, it was the Sepp Blattter FIFA show. His performance was typical. Blame others before the election, inform the world that despite his having ruled FIFA with a rod of iron for 17 years he - as the head of the organisation - cannot control the increasing numbers of his extremely corrupt officials. On gaining re-election turn on the charm by speaking out about brotherhood and togetherness and "we will get the ship to shore" and I will have made sure all will be perfect by the time I step down in 2019. Then, his position secure, at a media conference the following day his vindictive side appears and accusations start flying again, this time at the supposed conspiracy between the American justice system and the English FA - adding ominously "We will forgive, but we will never forget." It's all happening because the England and American World Cup bids got nowhere for 2018 and 2022, he suggests. The man is a Machiavellian snake. But he has shown extraordinary staying power thanks to the billions of FIFA cash he has spread like manure around the world during his tenure. Unlike Thaksin, Blatter knows how to guard his rear. He knows the Americans are after FIFA and so he hasn't gone near the country for 4 years, whilst he has regularly been seen everywhere else!

Thaksin could have benefitted from a trick or two out of the Blatter songbook.

[fountainhall]

Last week, it was the Sepp Blattter FIFA show. His performance was typical. Blame others before the election, inform the world that despite his having ruled FIFA with a rod of iron for 17 years he - as the head of the organisation - cannot control the increasing numbers of his extremely corrupt officials. On gaining re-election turn on the charm by speaking out about brotherhood and togetherness and "we will get the ship to shore" and I will have made sure all will be perfect by the time I step down in 2019. Then, his position secure, at a media conference the following day his vindictive side appears and accusations start flying again, this time at the supposed conspiracy between the American justice system and the English FA - adding ominously "We will forgive, but we will never forget."
Who would have believed it. The crook Blatter was elected on Friday, started shaking his fists again on Saturday and then resigns only 3 days later. The great survivor has finally been toppled. This surely can only mean that finally, after years of allegations, whistle blowers and corruption on a massive scale, the various legal cases have now got so close to him that he has no choice but to step down. He says he is going for the good of football. Absolute rubbish! His indictment on criminal charges will not be far off.

[Smiles]

Interesting-er and even more interesting-er.
Mr Blatter will for certain be ratted out by Someone Who Knows. There are so many arrests made already among the high ups in FIFA that there will be a vibrating lineup of truth tellers ready to throw him under the bus in order to escape the hoosegow.

[Up2U]

Update: Sepp Blatter stepping down, says FIFA needs 'profound overhaul'

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/02/footb ... -election/ (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/02/football/fifa-sepp-blatter-presidency-successor-election/)

[fountainhall]

Mr Blatter will for certain be ratted out by Someone Who Knows. There are so many arrests made already among the high ups in FIFA that there will be a vibrating lineup of truth tellers ready to throw him under the bus in order to escape the hoosegow.
The really interesting question is why did he not realise this prior to last week's election? Was he so blind in his cosy world of private jets, luxury hotel suites, hobnobbing with heads of state and drawing a salary estimated to be US$10 million a year (plus whatever else he might have salted away) that he failed to realise the whistleblowers would soon choke in their rush to spew forth more and more details of FIFA's corruption?

I'll bet that quite of few of those 143 delegates who cast their votes for Blatter last week and who then thronged him for selfies with the Emperor will soon be rushing for the exits. Blatter was their honey-pot. The phone lines will be buzzing with talk of how to protect their power bases. And since Blatter is remaining in power till the election which can be held at December at the earliest (another how many millions down the drain in wasted first class flights and luxury hotels?), what machinations will be continue to get up to to frustrate the legal authorities from getting to him?

Equally, where will Russia and Qatar stand? Putin already has more egg on his face since he went on TV to endorse Blatter last week. Mind you, he had no option - apart from staying out of the fray - the more so if Russia won the 2018 tournament with bribes. Qatar has already put out a statement that not one migrant worker has died during the early construction phase of its new stadia. That flies in the face of a vast number of facts unearthed by journalists and human rights organisations which claim the deaths re in their 100s.

A double voting system for two consecutive World Cups had never been done before. There have been major allegations that this was to ensure Russia won over England (which had the best bid according to FIFA's own technical committee) and Qatar over the US or Australia (Qatar's bid having been slammed by FIFA's own medical committee). So it is the Swiss investigation into that bit of skullduggery that may have the longest lasting effect. If they find corruption in both cases, can FIFA as some have argued reopen bids when Russia will have already spent a gazillion on stadia and infrastructure? How will Putin react? How will Qatar with its oil zillions react to a monumental loss of face? It's going to be an interesting few months!

[Smiles]

The rats are starting to abandon ship. Jack Warner, former FIFA vice president announces he's found Jesus and has decided to do the good thing ... i.e. spill his guts.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/jack-warne ... -1.2406097 (http://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/jack-warner-to-reveal-fifa-secrets-not-even-death-will-stop-the-avalanche-1.2406097)

[marti]

And now our great General has said that he is more than will to stay on as prime minister if the people want him to do it. Exactly what are people allowed to say when a self appointed prime minister is in office.

[cdnmatt]

And now our great General has said that he is more than will to stay on as prime minister if the people want him to do it. Exactly what are people allowed to say when a self appointed prime minister is in office.

Especially when that self appointed PM has already publicly stated things like he'll just kill any journalists he doesn't like.

[Smiles]

And now our great General has said that he is more than will to stay on as prime minister if the people want him to do it. Exactly what are people allowed to say when a self appointed prime minister is in office.
Not quite sure what 'people' are supposed to do, but after reading the above I'm inclined to think a new Reality Show is about to appear on Thai TV. The title?: "Extraditing Marti".
Can't wait. :D

[vnman]

Yes I see where the confusion lies, I was referring to using a VPN for banking but having put it in parentheses it was clear in my mind but not for the reader

Same thing goes with a VPN. If you normally log in from say your home in New York, then one day login via a VPN, your account is either going to get locked or at the very least flagged for internal review. You can use a VPN, but you have to clear it with the bank / financial institution first, so they can set your account to allow VPN logins.

Trust me, I develop tools like this for a living. We know full well if you're using a Tor exit node, VPN, proxy of another kind, behind a company network and firewall, just hanging out at home, etc. We might not be able to determine your location, but we can definitely determine whether or not you're trying to hide your location.

Who is we?

Has anyone noticed that political interest is almost completely lacking in Thai guys?

Ask them questions about current affairs and be surprised. It is not uncommon that they do not know who Barack Obama is for example. The average 12 year old in Europe would be able to answer that. Looks like most young Thai do not follow the news at all. Truly amazing.

At least for me it is almost beyond believe that a 20 year old citizen of this world - who has daily access to the Internet via at least his smart phone - does not know who is the president of the USA. That tells you about what they will probably know then: almost nothing!

[vnman]

I don't know where you are from goosood, but you should try asking a 12 year old in your country the same about any country in sea. I'm pretty sure you get the same answer. :)

I don't know where you are from goosood, but you should try asking a 12 year old in your country the same about any country in sea. I'm pretty sure you get the same answer. :)

I am from the Netherlands. The United States is daily in the news. Yes I am pretty sure 12 year old here knows about Barack Obama. At least by name. It will ring a bell.

Isn't it for you hard to believe a 20 year Thai boy doesn't know who Obama is? Isn't that very very strange? Knowing that guy has a smart phone? Looks to me the average Thai boy has no interest whatsoever in world news. They probably haven't heard about ISIS either.

[vnman]

Isn't it for you hard to believe a 20 year Thai boy doesn't know who Obama is?

hahaha, not at all.

[marti]

Isn't that very very strange? Knowing that guy has a smart phone? Looks to me the average Thai boy has no interest whatsoever in world news. They probably haven't heard about ISIS either.
I don't find this strange at all. Most Thais are basically uneducated and ignorant of anything beyond the borders of Thailand.

[lukylok]

I would be curious to know the level of knowledge of foreign political affairs of the average USA teen or even adult.
Not that it should be much better in Europe......

[Dalewood]

I am sure they have heard of Obama. There was a picture of him taken with a famous long-time resident of Bangkok. I am pretty sure it made the Thai newspapers.

As for the average American, foreign knowledge is a sad state of affairs. Ten or fifteen years ago, Republican members of congress bragged about not having a passport.

[oldfarang]

Thailand is as many "under" developed countries more busy with their self importance then what is happening in the world. Thai news programs have been and are now mostly about Thailand and the region, if the common Thai even watches the news, because I am sure some silly soap or Thai clowns on stage get much better TV ratings.

If you want to test anybodies general knowledge about the world (affairs), start with showing them a world map and ask where some basic regular in the news countries are.
Many Thais will fail, but then also many Americans will fail. Many Thais can not even find their own country on a world map.

[marti]

Our erstwhile Prime Minister has put a stop to talk about Casinos in Thailand. See: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general ... ation-talk (http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general/602688/prayut-slams-lid-on-casino-legalisation-talk)