copa

[paperboy]

i see the copa go go bar is now chaging to a beer bar, because there are no costomers, bring the wall down now.

[egel]

i see the copa go go bar is now chaging to a beer bar, because there are no costomers

That's true, apart from the shows, there is never anyone in the place.

Lets hope they get a decent election of boys....it would transform the place. They only have to look across the street.

[joe552]

Isn't the proper term an "erection of boys"?

[egel]

Sorry, but been hearing nothing but Election news in the UK!!

[Oliver]

Have just woken up to election-failure. Another five years of the Tories. God help us.

By the way, is Copa massage still operating?

Have just woken up to election-failure. Another five years of the Tories. God help us?Excellent news in my opinion. The English clearly voted to keep out yon new wee lassie and her kilted madmen from running the whole of the UK. Salmonella will be sitting there like an impotent shag on a rock for five whole years.

[anonone]

Are we sure that the Copa is changing to a beer bar, or are they just doing some remodeling during low season?

Maybe they are just getting rid of the swimming pool thing at the back of the stage. I don't think ANYONE ever went to the bar for that "show" anymore...

I would assume they will still have cabaret shows as that seemed to be a popular event.

[BOY69]

At march I stayed in The Copa , The hotel was excellent a great value for money but the Copa club was deserted only 3 customers only 4 unattracted boys on the stage and the cabaret show was dull. Boyz Boyz Boyz Boyz club at the opposite was much better .

At march I stayed in The Copa , The hotel was excellent a great value for money but the Copa club was deserted only 3 customers only 4 unattracted boys on the stage and the cabaret show was dull. Boyz Boyz Boyz Boyz club at the opposite was much better .

I stayed also in March. The boys were also not my type. The water show (referred to above by a poster) had only very manly masculine boys in it. I am into twinks.
There was also a white guy on stage as a gogo boy. He didn't look Thai at all. I guess Russian or European. Looked like 25 or so.
And there was a very masculine guy on stage, who I estimate to be around 35.
So I have to agree: the boys were not my type at all.

You would expect the bar owner to know the gay world by now and to know the average gay Farang visitor. In my opinion the majority wants twinks (they are the most popular, thats what I see; when I see a customer off a boy in 9 out of 10 cases he is a twink). Then why not have a stage with say 70% twinks and 30% manly masculine types? Then you will attract more visitors. It seems so common sense to me. But I must be missing something.

[Nirish guy]

I often wondered was there some other reasoning or logic going on behind the choice of guys Copa presented on stage as go go boys as for a long time now they have been TRULY AWFUL. I don't even mean that in a personal preference way but more that half of them didn't even appear to be or to be thinking like go go boys, old, out of shape, bored senseless, making no effort whatsoever to interact with customers. Like I said I often wondered was there something else going on behind the scenes re that such as perhaps the bar needed to keep the go go bar name tag ( for licence / tea money reasons ?) but ACTUALLY had no real interest in promoting that side of their business or something. Either way I do hope the cabaret side of things opens up again as I did always enjoy ( most ) of their shows.

I wonder if and when shows come back will they still have that brain numbing but annoyingly catchy "copa" sound track with the camera shutter sound built in to it as I can't hear Barry Manilows version of the song without instantly thinking of "oh I wonder who's on next" :-)

[egel]

making no effort whatsoever to interact with customers.
What customers?

[1moRussian]

Actually, two of my good offs in 2012 and 2013 were from Copa, one of them still worked there in 2014 (it was first notebook/laptop I bought in Thailand :) )
2Goosood - looks like you should have been staying in Sunee plaza, there are more twinks there. Hope you found it. From my point of view, I face the opposite problem - too many fem skinny twinks and not so many more sporty boys (although not overmeat bodybuilder type) in Pattaya. Because of this I like Bangkok more

[LoveThailand]

I am with 1moRussian on this. Doubt I will be back to Pty.

[BOY69]

Years ago it called Throb and Splash and it was one of the best go go club in Pattaya good selection of boys, excellent music and two daily enjoyable shows
I really don't know what went wrong over the years.

I really don't know what went wrong over the years.

I hate reading this :-)
"My God, what good times have I missed", I think each time I read stuff like this.

I hope the gogo bar scene in Cambodia or Laos is the successor. But if dating apps are the cause then I am afraid it will never become as good anymore as it was. But until now I always found boys of my type to off. But indeed it is only a fraction of the boys on stage I like to off. (I like many more, but if I am to pay I want my first or second choice and not choice number 5). And boys of a type which fit my first and second choice are indeed rare in the bars. But until now they are always there. But in small numbers.

[BOY69]

I really don't know what went wrong over the years.

I hate reading this :-)
"My God, what good times have I missed", I think each time I read stuff like this.

I hope the gogo bar scene in Cambodia or Laos is the successor. But if dating apps are the cause then I am afraid it will never become as good anymore as it was. But until now I always found boys of my type to off. But indeed it is only a fraction of the boys on stage I like to off. (I like many more, but if I am to pay I want my first or second choice and not choice number 5). And boys of a type which fit my first and second choice are indeed rare in the bars. But until now they are always there. But in small numbers.
You don't have to go all the way to Laos or Cambodia just a few steps opposite to Boyz Boyz Boyz just the same as the good old days and maybe even better!
Enoyed it very much at my last visit in March.

[paborn]

What place are you referring to that is just a few steps away?

[thaiguest]

I really don't know what went wrong over the years.

I hate reading this :-)
"My God, what good times have I missed", I think each time I read stuff like this.

I hope the gogo bar scene in Cambodia or Laos is the successor. But if dating apps are the cause then I am afraid it will never become as good anymore as it was. But until now I always found boys of my type to off. But indeed it is only a fraction of the boys on stage I like to off. (I like many more, but if I am to pay I want my first or second choice and not choice number 5). And boys of a type which fit my first and second choice are indeed rare in the bars. But until now they are always there. But in small numbers.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Laos or Cambodia. There's still more opportunity for fun in 100 meters of Sunnee than Laos and Cambodia combined. Believe me.

[BOY69]

There are still some good places such as BBB club. in Bangkok such as Dream Boys, The Boys BKK have a lot of fun in Phuket Patong Paradise complex : My Way,Kiss,Boat Bar act.
Thailand is still #1 no chance that Laos and Cambodia can compete with Thalinad vibrant gay night scene

[a447]

I've been a frequent visitor to Cambodia and have been to Laos, but only once.

Talking to the locals, it's clear that they will never accept gogo bars in those countries as they are shit scared of gaining a reputation for sex tourism like Thailand.

Even the beer bars have to be careful. I was talking to the owner of the Rainbow Bar in Phnom Pehn and asked him why the bar staff kept their shirts on. He told me he would be closed down immediately if that happened. The staff at 2 Colours Bar and Blue Chilli also work with their shirts on. And yet the staff at Space Bar often work shirtless. I can't work out out. Are they paying tea money?

So if even that is not allowed, what hope is there for gogo bars ever appearing?

I talked today via WhatsApp with a guy who works in Boyztown and the new format for Copa will open next month. It will become a beer bar & show bar. So the show will not go away!

[egel]

It will become a beer bar & show bar. So the show will not go away!

So. like Cafe Royal next door?

It wasn't very long ago (5 years?) since it was renovated from Throb. Surely it doesent need another renovation?

Maybe they are getting rid of the Swimming pool... one can only live in hope.

[a447]

The hordes of gawking Chinese tourists following the flag and wandering down Boyztown would not have gone unnoticed.

Are they planning on opening as a show bar to cater to them? I've already noticed signs in Chinese in the soi.

That's what I 'do be doing if I were the owner.

If that happened it would change the face of the soi forever. Another reason to hang around Sunee.

If that happened it would change the face of the soi forever. Another reason to hang around Sunee.

I also don't like the many females in the gogo bars and show bars. Is that a recent phenomenon or did they show up in bars already 5 or 10 years ago?

I know it are boy clubs and not gay clubs, but I like to be among gays. Women in bars irritate me a lot. For example the screaming they do when a boy shows his dick. So exaggerated, irritating behaviour. Why oh why does the human race need two genders in stead of one? I am very sad evolution didn't make us all of the male gender and that somehow we could still reproduce.
I have nothing with females. I don't have female friends at all. Only male friends.

[Oliver]

I hope the show is behind doors, unlike the one at Cafe Royal which lasts late into the night, or rather the morning, for its handful of customers. The effect on tourism can be judged by current comments on Tripadvisor.

[scottish-guy]

I looked on Tripadvisor - on the front pages of reviews for Ambiance and also for Le Cafe Royale, there is only ONE review which condemns the noise level - some prissy old queen from Manchester. Other reviewers mention that there is some noise late at night - but nothing unexpected.

Surely if one chooses to board oneself in the heart of Boyztown, one might expect some noise?

[christianpfc]

Women in bars irritate me a lot. ... I have nothing with females. I don't have female friends at all. Only male friends.
Be nice to women. In the entire known universe, they are the only source for boys known to man.

Women in bars irritate me a lot. ... I have nothing with females. I don't have female friends at all. Only male friends.
Be nice to women. In the entire known universe, they are the only source for boys known to man.

Yes they are needed for that function still :-)
I will do my best to tolerate them..

[oldfarang]

Goosood, forgive me I am just an old farang deciding whether or not to come and live in Thailand after my boyfriend died weeks ago.
I have read a few topics here and some of your posts. You seems to be only focused on your ability to have sex with Thai boys/youngmen. Is that your only ambition in life? You seems to be jealous of people (older generation) like me, why? NO no need for your list again, I have seen it.
You come over as a miserable person that is very unhappy in life. Wanting/waiting to retire in Thailand, but then Thailand and the boys are no more (you are around 40 I read). If I remember you are from Holland, one of the better countries to be gay. Many international youths, including Asian/Thai.

I/we do not know your full situation, maybe you are just a minimum wage factory worker or above.
Take it from an old cunt like me, life is more then just a sexy young lad. Change your attitude to life and start to be happy. Yes easier said than done, but my guess is you are now not even trying, just complaining, which never helps.

Goosood, forgive me I am just an old farang deciding whether or not to come and live in Thailand after my boyfriend died weeks ago.
I have read a few topics here and some of your posts. You seems to be only focused on your ability to have sex with Thai boys/youngmen. Is that your only ambition in life? You seems to be jealous of people (older generation) like me, why? NO no need for your list again, I have seen it.
You come over as a miserable person that is very unhappy in life. Wanting/waiting to retire in Thailand, but then Thailand and the boys are no more (you are around 40 I read). If I remember you are from Holland, one of the better countries to be gay. Many international youths, including Asian/Thai.

I/we do not know your full situation, maybe you are just a minimum wage factory worker or above.
Take it from an old cunt like me, life is more then just a sexy young lad. Change your attitude to life and start to be happy. Yes easier said than done, but my guess is you are now not even trying, just complaining, which never helps.

Huh? I am happy darling, don't worry about me. And if I complain than I am always right. I never complain when I do not have the truth on my side!

Yes of course I am jealous. Who would not want a paid vacation of 30 years in a sex paradise? Yes there is more in life than sex. I mean if you have sex each day for say 1 hour you still need 23 hours to fill the time. I am never bored. I do fill that time. I am not a factory worker. I graduated from University (MSc.). I have a descent job.

[a447]

Oops! I think I've been misquoted.

I never said I was irritated by women in gay bars, that I didn't have anything to do with women, or that I only had male friends.

That was someone else in the thread.

The first statement, however, is true.

[oldfarang]

Goosood, Glad you have a decent job. Means you should be able to save money for holidays.
I have never lived in Thailand (yet) and I am 70+ now. Yes, I was 40 the first time I came to Thailand and a lot has change. Good for Thailand, but not good for holiday/expat sex-farangs. The real changes started about 10 years ago, but I was also lucky to have met my boyfriend at the same time.

I had also a decent job. I worked for a company and did a lot of overtime. Maybe I was lucky, because I was given the option to choose, paid overtime or extra free days. I choose extra free days. Worked between 50-60 hours a week and everything above 40 hours was overtime. I saved up loads of FREE holidays 2-3(4) times/months a years.
When I was home just working, I did not do much, besides work, TV and sleep and saved up for my holidays. I quite working when I was 63, when I took my boyfriend back home.

At 48 I started a small in home one-man business for myself. Never got rich from it but ever bit helps and most of it I spent in Thailand holidays on ...???
Find something you are good at and like to do and try to turn it in a profit. What you like, others like (you are never alone).
I have NO education what so ever, no degrees, just my own will to learn and move forward. You can do that also. Just look forward and broaden your perspective of your capabilities and take a chance to do something with it.

[TravellerDave]

Several issues in this thread resonate with me. Firstly the noise levels affecting the Boystown hotels, like Copa & Ambiance. I don't mind the noise so much when Im alone but when Im in bed with a boy having sex I find it highly offputting and it goes on way beyond the official closing time of 2 am. The boys don't seem to be bothered but are conditioned to noise in the bars. In Pattaya they are not used to sleeping much before 3 am. In March I was awoken at about 4 am and found the boy playing a game on his smart phone with the resulting beeps and dings.
Of course noise can be a problem in Sunee also where I have stayed at the Don Plaza and Marina.
I hate to see females in the bars, but I have to accept that in Pattaya some BT bars are no longer the preserve of gay sex tourists like myself.
Regarding the comments of oldfarang I have to say that during my Two or three week stays in Pattaya I am very much focussed on sex, mostly with twinks, because very quickly its time to fly home, not to return for a couple of months. I have thought about going to Cambodia, but am afraid that this country would not deliver what I am looking for.

The real changes started about 10 years ago, but I was also lucky to have met my boyfriend at the same time.


Yes I save money. I can afford 4 times to go to Thailand on holiday in a single year. But sadly only short periods. If you have a job you have only 5-7 weeks free in a whole year. So I go 4 times, 1 week per trip. I started going October 2014. July 2015 will be my 4th trip already.

(But I rather have the option to retire at 55 and live 30 years there; that option I will not have most likely.)

But now your statement about '"10 years ago the changes started".

What changes? Were the bars full of Farang back then? Why have they left then? Or are there just more bars and it seems only empty because we have now more bars to choose from, but still the same number of visitors? Were there more twinks 10 years ago? Then why now less? What are exactly the changes? 10 years ago there were no dating apps. That is for me the most likely explanation why it goes less with the gogo bar scene.

[oldfarang]

Sorry, but I have not set a foot in any GoGo Bar and such for 10 years. I met my boyfriend, remember. But I do (have) know(n) farangs who where still single for the past 10 years (my 3-4 friends and loads of acquaintances/drinking buddies).

Changes (I can only speak for Pattaya):
Has gotten so much cleaner. I remember everyday where ever you go, no matter big or small road, always full of smelly days old garbage.
1000's of stray (sick) dogs.
Cock rogues everywhere, a lot more then now.
----------OK, you don't care about that, so here is what you care about-------------
Thailand was cheaper, but then everywhere else was also.
I am sure the boys where cheaper (don't know the prices now)
Different boys same attitude. It all depends on how you treat/handle them. Remember they are human beings, not numbers and meat. They deserve respect.
As I said, have not seen a GoGo Bar in 10 years. Last one (my regular) was Kaos in Sunee Plaza. Owner English Colin, very nice man. I used to party (by the bottle and sharing with the boys) there a lot on my holidays.
Where have all the farangs gone? The farang gay scene is turning old. Many have gone to hopefully a better place, like my boyfriend. Many have decided to try different countries like Cambodia (Thailand 20 years ago, the good old days), Laos, Vietnam and even the Philippines (worse than Thailand, I think).

Well I have been hearing from my single friends that Thailand is probably on its last legs, maybe 5-10 years more for a "(semi)paradise".
A few of the people I know have indeed left Thailand and now go to the other countries, so I guess others and younger generation do that also. Looking for a new paradise and from what I hear it will probably be Cambodia, so focus on that (cheaper, very easy for Visa's and business, many willing poor boys, may all your dreams come true).

Yes, the bars where much fuller back than. Many more farangs. IMHO, I think that for the past years the high season has as much farangs as the low season had a decade(s) ago.
Sorry don't know anything about internet apps/dating. Had my boyfriend for 10 years.

I am sure others who live here already for many many years could give you much better information.

Thanks mate! I will give Cambodia a try.

[oldfarang]

Thanks mate! I will give Cambodia a try.
http://www.khmer440.com/chat_forum/
Same as everywhere. Nice people and idiot people

[egel]

What changes? Were the bars full of Farang back then? Why have they left then?

2004 Tsunami... followed by...in no particular order
Shootings in BKK...
Airport sit in...
Floods...
Red Shirts v Yellow Shirts (Riots)...
Martial Law...
Country wide Curfew (including Farangs)...
48 Bt to the ┬г (instead of 75)...
Russians arrived...

There you are, at least one event per year, for the last 10 years... I wonder what 2015 has in store.
Is it any wonder people go elsewhere?

[oldfarang]

What changes? Were the bars full of Farang back then? Why have they left then?

2004 Tsunami... followed by...in no particular order
Shootings in BKK...
Airport sit in...
Floods...
Red Shirts v Yellow Shirts (Riots)...
Martial Law...
Country wide Curfew (including Farangs)...
48 Bt to the ┬г (instead of 75)...
Russians arrived...

There you are, at least one event per year, for the last 10 years... I wonder what 2015 has in store.
Is it any wonder people go elsewhere?

Thanks "egel" forgot about those, because in those 10 years, I was no longer single and extremely happy

[Oliver]

Agreed; all of Egel's suggestions are valid.
Perhaps even more so is the fact that those falangs who were responsible for Boyztown's growth (as owners and punters) are slowly dying out and our younger brothers are finding what they want (often not the same us us) elsewhere.
I also wonder whether the bad publicity over under-age sex discouraged some tourists....perhaps they think that their choice of Pattaya as a destination makes them suspects.

Thanks mate! I will give Cambodia a try.
I've sent you a PM

[a447]

Goosood, don't forget Singapore and Kuala Lumpur.

Unfortunately, I can't give you any information on those destinations.

Lol

Goosood, don't forget Singapore and Kuala Lumpur.

Unfortunately, I can't give you any information on those destinations.

Lol

I think I must be missing something...?

By the way I like Thailand during the three trips I have done so far. I always found boys to off from a bar, or on Gayromeo. But then I read all these stories of how good it was in the past and it made me wonder: what was than different? But I will give Cambodia a try to experience the Thailand of 20 years ago.

But as I understand it now the only thing that made it different is: less Russians and more European Farangs in the bars (besides some minor other things, like now cleaner streets).
But I am glad it is not so very busy. Busy means more competition. If there are only some 3 hot twinks in a gogo bar you can now enter at 9 pm and still be able to off him. In the past I guess you had to be there 8 pm or you were too late! Then for me NOW is better. I am lucky! I live in the ideal time for a gay Farang to go to Thailand :-)
Your guys had to go early to a bar to off the boy of your dreams. I can walk in at 9 a or 10 and still find him on stage!

And yes as a man who lives alone and who travels to Thailand, then everyone knows why you go, certainly if it is the third trip you do in a few months. People at work know why I go. It is talked openly about it.
And if your guys do not get any questions from friends/family/collegues, then trust me: they know why you AGAIN go to Thailand; they just don't let you know that they know.

[a447]

I think I must be missing something...?

Not for long! Lol

There are some people I want to keep my Thailand trips from, so I just tell them I'm going to S.E.Asia but don't tell them where. If they ask, I mention every country except Thailand.

[fountainhall]

then I read all these stories of how good it was in the past and it made me wonder: what was than different?
The тАЬwhy is it different now?тАЭ question has come up many times in recent years. I canтАЩt speak for Pattaya because I am so rarely there. But in Bangkok much has indeed changed тАУ and is still changing. As some have pointed out, a great deal of the тАЬfunтАЭ of going to go-go bars and the enjoyment gained from being in a bar with a host of young smiling guys has mostly disappeared. I reckon this is partly due to the boys themselves being less interested in entertaining customers than just shuffling around waiting and hoping for an off, partly to ever more intrusive mamasans who get away with their behaviour because the increasing number of Asian tourists donтАЩt know any better, and partly because prices have risen very considerably. With some bars now charging Bt. 400 for a small bottle of water, rip-off is hardly an accurate description.

IтАЩm not sure if it was still true 10 years ago, but 15 тАУ 20 years ago it was certainly the case, that more go-go boys and attendants in massage places were actually gay. There was less hassle and tips were more or less just that, not prices to be negotiated and not looked at with disdain when presented and then accompanied by requests for more (although very occasionally that did happen).

Soi Twilight is now almost a shadow of its former self. I guess the new Asian trade will keep it going for some time. But as I have written before, I agree with Alex Kerr who writes in his excellent book тАЬBangkok FoundтАЭ that BangkokтАЩs days as one of the sex capitals of the world are definitely numbered. That book was written some years before last yearтАЩs coup. Given the ultra conservative nature of the present government and the crackdown on corruption тАУ at least amongst some of the bigger fish - I donтАЩt believe it can continue.

But we should not forget that it was not the military which inaugurated the first major crackdown. It was Thaksin seniorтАЩs first government that set in motion the social order campaign of 2001. As the New York Times reported, its objective was to тАЬclean up the countryтАЩs risqu├й image and also halt the supposed moral decay of its youth.тАЭ Also -


For freewheeling Thailand, PurachaiтАЩs campaign is a radical departure. And judging by opinion polls, his new social order is proving popular with the urban public. His appeal to traditional values and Buddhist philosophy hits the right notes with many Thais weary of the endless influx of Western pop culture. тАЬTo many Thais, his policies are seen as timely and much needed,тАЭ says Surichai WunтАЩgaeo, director of Chulalongkorn UniversityтАЩs Social Development Institute.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/20051/soc ... gn-part-2/ (http://asiancorrespondent.com/20051/social-order-campaign-part-2/)

There have been several mini-raids in recent months in Soi Twilight (i.e. not accompanied by senior government/police figures and the usual razzmatazz of media hoards and TV cameras) ostensibly to ensure illegal Lao, Cambodian and Burmese are not working. As I saw when in Boys of Bangkok a few weeks ago, that results in most of the cute younger guys magically disappearing as the inspections are about to start and leaving only a handful of older guys - some quite definitely past their sell-by dates. Babylon has also been hit by what are probably best terms "mini-inspections" which on at least one occasion closed off part of the complex.

There seems not to be a concern among the Soi Twilight owners - yet - that the military will go to the lengths of PurachaiтАЩs 2001 campaign. On the other hand, the noticeable absence of customers in that Soi most days of the week may mean that pure economics will be enough to do the job.

I fully accept I look back through rosy tinted spectacles. There was tremendous fun being in the bars in the 1980s; a little less as the 90s progressed. Now тАЬfings certainly ainтАЩt wot they used tтАЩbe.тАЭ

[a447]

A very accurate description of the state of play in Soi Twilight at the moment, Fountainhall.

But somehow I think the soi will survive, so long as the mainly Chinese customers keep coming and remain willing to pay exorbitant process to see what they are unable to see at home.

If the money keeps flowing into the bars, then they'll have enough money to pay off the police on a regular basis. So the police won't close them down and cut off their noses to spite themselves.

So the junta will have to send in the army to clean up the soi, not the police.

If they decide to do that, then I think the soi is finished.

Hopefully, the junta has more urgent matters to attend to.

....

Thank you mister for this very informative history lesson. This is what I need. I need guys like you, who go to Bangkok or Pattaya for decades already and who write down how it was and how it has changed and why it has changed. The 'why' is also very interesting to know about. Thanks again for your contribution.

I summarise your views as follows (in my own words):

In the past more Farang in bars and more of the boys were gay. Drinks were also cheaper, and less irritating mamasans. Also the government let the bars fend for themselves. So it was a fun time. Then the government started to make life more difficult for the bar owners because they really didn't want these places around. Most likely this meant the bribe sum to pay police and other officials went up as a consequence. The bars needed extra income because of this and the owners made clear to the mamasans to become more pushing for tips. They also made the prices for drinks higher. But of course this all meant less Farang going to the bars. Which again drove up prices etc. Till we have the current situation with ridiculous high prizes for drinks. That in effect when you want a boy you can pay 3000 baht (500 for off, 1500 for the boy, 1000 for the two drinks and the forced tips.). Paying each day 3000 is for many Farang too much. So almost no visitors anymore. The Asian visitors for now save the bars.

Correct? Then one thing I can not explain: why now less gay boys? Where have the gay boys gone? Gayromeo/Grindr? But they are only in app form for a few years now, 10 years ago these apps didn't exist yet.


There was tremendous fun being in the bars in the 1980s; a little less as the 90s progressed. Now тАЬfings certainly ainтАЩt wot they used tтАЩbe.тАЭ

Ok, so the 1980s were the best time. When I was a teenager. I hope Cambodia will soon be how it was in Thailand in the 1980s.

[joe552]

I can't see Cambodia becoming the new Pattaya any time soon. I haven't been for a couple of years, but in Pnomh Penh the bars were much more discreet - just beer bars with money boys hanging around. I visited Sihanoukville, where my brother lives and is considered a party town, and there were no gay bars as far as I know. a447 has been more recently, I think, so would have more up to date information.

But don't hold your breath waiting for a new Pattaya. You missed that boat, I'm afraid. But there's still fun to be had, both in Pattaya and in Cambodia.

[fountainhall]

Then one thing I can not explain: why now less gay boys? Where have the gay boys gone? Gayromeo/Grindr? But they are only in app form for a few years now, 10 years ago these apps didn't exist yet
Even 10 years ago there were several computer gay dating sites. Gay.com was one and I remember meeting a few Thai guys from there in 2001 if not earlier. Can't recall others.

And I can really only speculate as to why there seem to be less gay boys in Bangkok's go-go bars. I am sure the gay dating apps will account for a lot of them. The relatively recent proliferation of many more massage places may be another. Also I can't believe many of the boys nowadays actually enjoy stripping down to skimpy briefs, having to be up on stage or fondled by an ageing faring sitting in the audience for their commission from one watered down Coke. In the "old days" there seemed to be a much greater camaraderie amongst the boys and many did seem to be enjoying their work.

As to a447''s view re the Chinese, what seems to be happening based on my not very frequent visits is that a group will go to a bar, order a drink, see the show and then depart. So they are not lashing out nearly as much as the westerners of earlier years. At present most of the mainland Chinese visitors seem to come in groups. Given the herd mentality, the chances of any of them offing a boy will be extremely slim.

There are of course more independent guys coming from Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan and Korea, and they tend to flock here during public holiday periods in their home countries. But these guys are a younger, hipper and generally wealthier crowd. They are happy to stay at the up market hotels - anyone who visits the pool at the Sukhothai on Sathorn at Christmas or New Year will see hordes of gorgeous Asian bodies! These guys tend to spend a lot of time shopping during the day and then hitting saunas like Babylon and Sauna Mania in the evening. Later they will go off to Soi 4 and the dance clubs and discos like DJ Station and G.O.D. The go-go bars are just not their scene. So over the longer term I cannot see Asians as a whole making up for loss of patronage in the go go bars.

Also, the bars never depended exclusively on foreign clientele. I often wonder why there are certainly a lot less Thais now visiting them than used to be the case. Once again I can only speculate that many now depend on social networking. There are saunas galore around the outskirts of the city catering almost exclusively to young Thais, and few westerners go near the large drinking bars with their excruciatingly loud music and no English spoken on Ramkhamhaeng, Ladphrao and elsewhere.

Will it all last? As I suggested, I believe the main go-go bars in Bangkok will die out. Sex will always remain available, though. It will just be found in different ways.

[neddy3]

I would like to thank fountainhall for his two thoughtful postings on Soi Twilight, and the changes there.

Seems pretty accurate to me. :ymsigh:

[neddy3]

Ok, so the 1980s were the best time. When I was a teenager. I hope Cambodia will soon be how it was in Thailand in the 1980s.

Then I'm afraid that you're in for a big disappointment. :(

[a447]

Fountainhall, from what I have noticed on recent visits to Soi Twilight bars, the Chinese come in groups of three or four guys, sometimes accompanied by females. They have a guy or two sit with them and buy quite a few drinks and spend quite a lot. One thing you never see is them nursing one drink all night.

But after the show they get up and leave. The guys miss out on the real money because they are not offed. But the bar itself does very well out of them.

When large Chinese groups turn up in the soi, following the flag, they just gawk at us "queers" without going into the bars. And I've never seen them sit down and have a drink in one of the beer bars.

Just in and out like a sailor's dick, so to speak.

[Oliver]

This is all true but I'd suggest that the problems with go-go bars were there before the arrival of the Chinese tour groups and even before Gay Romeo. I appreciate that my memories of the bars in Bangkok, Pattaya and Chiang Mai in the 90s are influenced by the fact that it was all new to me then; however, I maintain that the guys in those days actually danced; that they interacted with the punters ; and that, in every respect, the bars were more fun and employed more cute guys. The decline started in the early 2000s in my view and I suspect that it was partly the result of changes in Thai family and social/economic life as well as issues relating to the running of the bars.

[latintopxxx]

gay romeo, grindr and such like have definetely had am averse effect on gogo/beer bars. Whilst I still enjoy going to gogo bars as I get a sexual thrill out of seeing the whores on stage trying hard to flog their arses...most of the time its simply so much easier to shop online....I even negotiate price and ehat i expect online...so no surprises....and when there is a surprise if he isnt too hideous I use it to my advantage.

[fountainhall]

I maintain that the guys in those days actually danced; that they interacted with the punters ; and that, in every respect, the bars were more fun and employed more cute guys. The decline started in the early 2000s in my view and I suspect that it was partly the result of changes in Thai family and social/economic life as well as issues relating to the running of the bars.
Could not agree more - and the 1980s were even more fun than the 1990s! I certainly believe the decline gained major momentum with the Purachai/Thaksin 2001 social order campaign.

Its perhaps worth remembering that Purachai was named The Nation's 2001 Man of the Year (whatever that might have meant)! In its encomium the rag gave the pros and cons of the social order campaign. Here are a couple of pro comments -


The interior minister assumed his post with a vow to crack down on vice. To the surprise of almost everyone, he did. When Purachai Piumsombun took the Interior Ministry's helm in February, there seemed only two probable scenarios for his future: he would flop sooner or just a little later. It appeared there was no way this man, a virtual "nobody" a couple of years earlier, could stand the pressure that came with overseeing the biggest, most corrupt and politically turbulent bureaucracy. To begin with, he was just an academic. What did his doubters know? The presence of the soft-spoken father of three was felt right away, and his impact fast became far-reaching. By the middle of the year, his name was mentioned as a possible stand-in prime minister at the height of Thaksin Shinawatra's Constitution Court trial. Then came the "social order" that forced many of us to drink beer from ice buckets after midnight while looking over our shoulders like frightened animals. And today, even Prime Minister Thaksin would be reluctant to run against him in a popularity contest . . .

. . . for a change, Thais have seen a politician stick with his initiative, always ready to defend its value and plough ahead despite growing protests. Purachai has travelled north and south to make sure bureaucrats, many of whom benefit enormously from the night-life industry, take him seriously. Senior provincial officials who let underage patrons enter pubs under their noses have been transferred. "Police have had to work twice as hard, and we have been scolded twice as much," said Lt-Colonel Paitoon Saengruang, a deputy crime-suppression chief at Bangkok's Hua Mark station. "But you can't question the minister's intention and integrity. How can you, considering the notorious characters who had tried to control the Interior Ministry?"

Since I am interested in how it was before 'my time', I am buying up old Spartacus guides via the Internet. The first one has arrived. It is the 2001/2002 edition.

It says the first gogo bar in Pattaya was established 13 October 1982. It's name Gentleman Club. (So before that time only beer bars and cruising?). Or did Western gay men only started coming to Pattaya in the 1980s?

No mention in this edition of Copa and Wild West Boys. Also when I look at the map in it, the Ambiance hotel was already in Boyztown, but at another spot. Is that an error or has this hotel indeed moved? Many names of bars I do not recognise. So a lot of name changes in the last 14 years. Sunee Plaza is already mentioned, but no Eros. So Copa, Wild West Boys, Eros is all after 2001/2!

[fountainhall]

did Western gay men only started coming to Pattaya in the 1980s?
Not sure why you have such an interest in the past! I was in Pattaya in early 1984 and don't remember there being more than a handful of gay bars. I met one guy in what I think was the Cafe de Paris but it was then a long narrow bar on the other side of the soi.

You must surely know that the sex industry started catering to westerners when there were floods of Americans coming to Pattaya for R&R during the Vietnam war. Utapao, the airport near Pattaya, was a major US air base for B52 bombers and so Pattaya became one of the nearest centres where GIs could take R&R breaks. Obviously it was the girlie bars that started up and flourished at that time. Not sure why it took so much longer for gay businesses to open, but the fledgling westerners' gay scene in Bangkok and Pattaya only seemed to start up in earnest in the late 1970s, although I have read of two of three bars opening earlier than that.

There had always been a flourishing sex underground for locals - as is the case today. I hear tales of bars and brothels in Klong Toei where westerners would never be allowed, even if they could find them. How much of this is true, you'd have to ask a Thai.

I want to know out of historical inrerest. The date I gave above about when the first gogo bar in Pattaya was introduced is not easy to find. Sociologically this all is interesting. At least for me it is. Also what changed and why.

If beginning 1980s there weren't many bars then does this mean real mass tourism of gay Farang to Pattaya was not happening back then yet? Now the average gay in Europe knows Pattaya is good place to go. Did the average gay guy know this also in 1982? Or is it only with the 1990s that most people got to know about Pattaya?

Yes I know how it all started. With the soldiers. But that is start of hetero sex tourism. I am only interested in gay sex tourism. How and when did that start. And when was it on every gays radar in Europe?

[Oliver]

Get hold of a copy of Michael J Burchall's "Boyztown". I bought mine at Ambiance. It tells the story of the first bars from the perspective of the owner of one of the best (and still much mourned, at least by me), Cockpit. A good read....particularly if you trying to fill time on the plane journey to Thailand!
"What's sex got to do with it?" by Dennis Dewsnap is also relevant- part of it that is- also acquired in Boyztown. I forget where.

[paperboy]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
memories

Get hold of a copy of Michael J Burchall's "Boyztown". I bought mine at Ambiance. It tells the story of the first bars from the perspective of the owner of one of the best (and still much mourned, at least by me), Cockpit. A good read....particularly if you trying to fill time on the plane journey to Thailand!
"What's sex got to do with it?" by Dennis Dewsnap is also relevant- part of it that is- also acquired in Boyztown. I forget where.

Thanks. I will buy it next time I am in Pattaya!

[neddy3]

did Western gay men only started coming to Pattaya in the 1980s?
Not sure why you have such an interest in the past! I was in Pattaya in early 1984 and don't remember there being more than a handful of gay bars. I met one guy in what I think was the Cafe de Paris but it was then a long narrow bar on the other side of the soi.

Ah, Caf├й de Paris brings back very vague memories from long ago.

It is obvious from your posts that your memory is much sharper than mine.

Where exactly do you think it was? What is there now?

Was it late 80s or early 90s?

[fountainhall]

Where exactly do you think it was? What is there now?
Was it late 80s or early 90s?
I know the date as I was only in Pattaya once in the 1980s and throughout most of that decade I kept a record of all my flights. From that I know my visit was the end of February 1984. If my memory is correct, it was on the side of Boystown where Ambience is located although I cannot pinpoint an exact location. I also don't recall any go-go dancers - just a bunch of friendly freelancers.

[neddy3]

Thanks for that.

No, Caf├й de Paris was a bar, without go-go.
A freelancer pick-up joint is probably accurate.

Too long ago, but maybe Funny Boys is now close to the site.

Feb 84. OMG, over 30 years! :ymblushing:

Does anyone know how far back Michael Burchall's book goes?
And if Ambiance might still have it? Likely not, with all the changes.

The guys your guys were fucking in the beginning of the 80s are now in their fifties, or even already 60 year old. The guys you are fucking now weren't even born yet for quite some years when you first came to Thailand.

Do your guys sometimes recognise an old Thai from age 60 and think: "My God, is that that hot guy from 1982 I have fucked twice a day back then? I wonder if he still recognises me? He looks so old and rimpled now".

Do these kinds of thoughts sometimes pop up? :-)

[Oliver]

According to Michael Burchall's book (which details all gay establishments in Pattaya between 1982 and 2008) there were three Cafe de Paris bars. One was in Walking Street and closed in November 1987; another on Second Road on the site of Moonlight (where the guys wore little green kimonos....remember?) which closed in 1988; and a third in Boyztown proper (PL3) which closed in 1990.

Do your guys sometimes recognise an old Thai from age 60 and think: "My God, is that that hot guy from 1982 I have fucked twice a day back then? I wonder if he still recognises me? He looks so old and rimpled now".

Do these kinds of thoughts sometimes pop up? :-)If we're being totally realistic, the greater likelihood is that they're dead, from AIDS.

[Patanawet]

it was on the side of Boystown where Ambience is located although I cannot pinpoint an exact location. I also don't recall any go-go dancers - just a bunch of friendly freelancers.
That wasn't COCOBANANA. later to move to the end of the soi and then to become Panorama was it?

[christianpfc]

There had always been a flourishing sex underground for locals - as is the case today. I hear tales of bars and brothels in Klong Toei where westerners would never be allowed, even if they could find them. How much of this is true, you'd have to ask a Thai.
Are your referring to a thread on gaybuttonthai http://gaybuttonthai.com/viewtopic.php? ... 7&start=90 (http://gaybuttonthai.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6587&start=90) or do you have independent sources?

I went to Klong Toey Slum and didn't leave a stone unturned in search of these underage brothels (so I could warn others not to go there!), in vain: http://christianpfc.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... -main.html (http://christianpfc.blogspot.com/2015/01/klong-toey-slum-1-introduction-and-main.html)

Now Klong Toei district is more than just the slum, these places might be outside of the slum.

I have an explanation why there are fewer Thai customers than before: there are plenty of saunas and karaokes and they can get boys from the internet. Inflation in Soi Twilight is about 10% per year, far above inflation for other goods.

If I didn't have an underwear fetish (which cannot be satisfied in Saranrom or online), I would probably not go to gogo bars (now 95% Pattaya and 5% Bangkok, despite living in Bangkok). Certainly not for the shows!

It has been mentioned before that Dream Boys' boys complain about lack of offs. I said it before, maybe show and selling sex should be separated (and there are already bars in Pattaya without show, which I prefer; and there are venues that just have show, but without nudity, like Alcazar, Tiffany, Coliseum).

Since I am interested in how it was before 'my time', I am buying up old Spartacus guides via the Internet. The first one has arrived. It is the 2001/2002 edition.

It says the first gogo bar in Pattaya was established 13 October 1982. It's name Gentleman Club. (So before that time only beer bars and cruising?). Or did Western gay men only started coming to Pattaya in the 1980s?

No mention in this edition of Copa and Wild West Boys. Also when I look at the map in it, the Ambiance hotel was already in Boyztown, but at another spot. Is that an error or has this hotel indeed moved? Many names of bars I do not recognise. So a lot of name changes in the last 14 years. Sunee Plaza is already mentioned, but no Eros. So Copa, Wild West Boys, Eros is all after 2001/2!

Finally the second Spartacus guide I ordered has now also arrived. It is the 1994/1995 edition.

No Sunee mentioned. No Jomtien mentioned.
It basically is only Boyztown, plus a highly recommended bar "Adam & Eve" in Soi 2.
Also Boyztown contains far less clubs/bars than currently.

Looks to me the gay scene in Pattaya in 1994/1995 was almost only confined in a very small section of what is now Boyztown.

So no wonder many older members of this forum think it was all much more crowded in the past. There hardly were any venues back then!! All gay tourists had to go to the same few places.

[christianpfc]

When consulting old Spartacus guides, keep in mind that there is a delay between collection of date and publication. I had a look at the Thailand section of current Spartacus guide, gay venues change name or go out of business that fast in Bangkok, half of the information was not accurate any more (information was 1 to 2 years old).

[Surfcrest]

No Sunee mentioned. No Jomtien mentioned.
It basically is only Boyztown, plus a highly recommended bar "Adam & Eve" in Soi 2.
So no wonder many older members of this forum think it was all much more crowded in the past. There hardly were any venues back then!! All gay tourists had to go to the same few places.
I recall having an earlier publication of Spartacus with me, my first trip to Thailand. Even back then, so much changed so fast that it was only partially accurate at best. I don't recall much happening in Sunee, the first Jomiten bars were down on the corner toward's the 7-11 and there wasn't much, but the beach was quite the spot back then...Dick's has been in the plaza since the late 90's I think?

Adam & Eve was indeed one of the biggest and best clubs in Pattaya. There were other clubs dotted up the Soi's running north from Boyztown including Nautilus (One of the first underwater shows) and the "Ballpark"...I recall a good club way up near the Balcony Restaurant on North Road. I think we had a few threads over the years on Pattaya clubs from years gone by.

Surfcrest

[Smiles]

I recall having an earlier publication of Spartacus with me, my first trip to Thailand. Even back then, so much changed so fast that it was only partially accurate at best.
And that is exactly why gay thailand message boards should not even bother with guides to gogo bar/massage (gay) joints, host bars etc etc . And I include Nickey's stuff ~ attached to the top of the Forums as if it is Mose's obligations to The People. That site is unaccurate much of the time: no fault of his, its just the unfortunate nature of the beast .... in Thailand gay places of all kinds change like the hurricanes. None of the sites get it correctly anyway, and frankly, bad information is much worse than no information.

My (unwanted ... I understand) feeling is that the dudes-on-the-ground (i.e. the members here) up-to-date info is heads and shoulders above any specific website purports to be. And further to that, I suggest that message boards should not even attempt to get into the business of venue info in the first place. It's a mug's game.

Bottom line: ignore the established websites who pretend up-to-datedness. They ain't, and never wiIl be.

Out of topic but I just have to write it down. I hope it is OK because it is an interesting observation:

The 2001/2002 edition of Spartacus does not contain a listing for Saudi Arabia. The country isn't mentioned at all. But the 1994/1995 edition does. It warns you, but it mentions cruising areas. But only for pick up, it warns not to do anything publicly. Must have been a very courageous contributor of that guide to explore the gay life in Saudi Arabia in the early 1990s. I wouldn't have had the guts.

But between 1994/5 and 2001/2 something must have happened. Spartacus doesn't mention the country anymore.

[vnman]

Out of topic but I just have to write it down. I hope it is OK because it is an interesting observation:

The 2001/2002 edition of Spartacus does not contain a listing for Saudi Arabia. The country isn't mentioned at all. But the 1994/1995 edition does. It warns you, but it mentions cruising areas. But only for pick up, it warns not to do anything publicly. Must have been a very courageous contributor of that guide to explore the gay life in Saudi Arabia in the early 1990s. I wouldn't have had the guts.

But between 1994/5 and 2001/2 something must have happened. Spartacus doesn't mention the country anymore.

I think that the Spartacus is just as useless as Utopia. Outdated information you really don't want to rely on. I'd rather get my information from people like Christian, who with no monetary incentive writes about his experiences in his blog.

What hasn't been discussed and is definitely partly debit for the changes is the age restriction that has been enforced of the years. I think we can divide it into 4 groups. I'm sure everyone can figure out what they are. No matter if you think that it's good or bad, it has done something when you eliminate the reason to come for the first 3 of the 4 groups.

Then there is the minimum wage hike that got introduced a couple of years ago. I have no proof of this but I do have a strong feeling it's partly the reason less boys leave home.

What hasn't been discussed and is definitely partly debit for the changes is the age restriction that has been enforced of the years. I think we can divide it into 4 groups. I'm sure everyone can figure out what they are. No matter if you think that it's good or bad, it has done something when you eliminate the reason to come for the first 3 of the 4 groups.

Then there is the minimum wage hike that got introduced a couple of years ago. I have no proof of this but I do have a strong feeling it's partly the reason less boys leave home.

You mean because a minimum wage has been introduced less boys volunteer for being a gogo boy, because they can earn now a reasonable income with a 'normal' job? Good point. That can indeed explain why there are less boys (if there are less boys; I didn't sadly experience the glorious years). But also the dating apps must play a role, I am very sure. It has to be.

By the way, I have no idea what you mean with 4 age groups (you say age restriction can be divided into 4 groups?)? Aren't it just two? Below 18 and above 18? Yes the guys who come for below 18 will not come anymore if the age limit is now more enforced. But this was already so in 1994/5. This is what Spartacus 1994/1995 has to say about this (page 787):

"Thais tend to be more flexible about "under-ageness". A 15 year old Thai, whom Westerners would see clearly as a boy, can already have done his share of working for his family or for himself for some years. On the other hand there is clearly no room for paedophilia in Thailand......The age of consent is 15 in Thailand for both sexes, but having a young person between 15 and 18 with you for the night requires parental consent, otherwise severe penalties are imposed. Police checks have increased and in many bars it is stated that the men working are over 18. In case of doubt ask for ID".

So even in 1994/5 a paedophile visitor risks serious jail term. A visitor must have been extremely dumb to take the risk. Even then the advice was to always ask for ID.

[vnman]

But also the dating apps must play a role, I am very sure. It has to be.

I wasn't excluding, just adding to what was already suggested.



By the way, I have no idea what you mean with 4 age groups (you say age restriction can be divided into 4 groups?)? Aren't it just two? Below 18 and above 18?


Sure you can say 18 up and down...but that is not how it went. First it was the peads, then the hebephiles and recently...last two years, the Ephebophiles. Even though the last can still enjoy the upper limit of their preference. That's why I said 4 groups. You could make a case for any number of groups, but I was referring to what wasn't on offer anymore and the group that stayed away because of that.

Sunnee always had a bad reputation because of that. But even if you didn't look for the darker side of it, you could have great fun. Walking to my favorite host bar always made me pass venues where you could see the shady side of sunnee. I, like most of you have my own opinion about that, but you cannot deny, sunnee was a vibrant place because of it's mix of darker and lighter side.

Ok clear now. My preference is 16-25 roughly. Luckily all legal in me country. Does this make me an Ephebophile? (Wikipedia says this is the age group 15-19).

And it seems to me to be such a normal preference!

Aren't most people, both hetero and gay, lusting for bodies in that age group? You rarely see a hetero man preferring a 40 year old above a 15-19 year old woman. It is what the average human is wired to like. Car adds show a 18-20 year old woman next to the car, not a 40 year old one, let alone a 30 year old one. How often do we not read about female teachers having sex with their 15-19 year old pupils? It is almost daily in the newspapers. It is extremely common.

Yes I heard the stories about Sunee. I just can't explain it. Because it is very tempting for poor Thai to blackmail these Farang. These Farang have taken huge risks. I do not give a moral judgement (well I will: liking a 16 year old is for me normal, liking a 10 year old is sick). But someone who takes so much risk is very dumb. And if I am to believe Spartacus 1994/1995, it was already very risky back then. Such a person doesn't deserve to walk free. If you take such irresponsible risks, (no matter if it is for me personally morally OK or NOT OK) you just do not deserve it ends in your favour. Because it is rewarding stupidity. Stupidity should not be rewarded.

[vnman]

I do not give a moral judgement (well I will: liking a 16 year old is for me normal, liking a 10 year old is sick).

It's hard to distinguish your own preference with that of the masses. I don't think being sexually interested in someone who could be your son or even grandson will be seen as normal by the masses. From that perspective I don't see much difference between the two groups you mentioned. There is also a big difference between liking and giving into urges and even abusing.

I had a discussion about this in that past and agree that it is a moral debate. Many don't see it that way and I cannot understand that. What if the law in a country would make all ages fair play? Don't tell me that you would not have a heavy opinion about grandpa with a 6 year old. Since the law allows it, your heavy opinion is purely a moral one.

I understand that this thread is far from the Copa topic the OP started with, so I shall give it a rest. That bar and the one before (throb something) that has never interested me. Neither the bar across the street. At least, I'm assuming that they still have the manly mens on offer. I'd rather walk a few doors in the direction of 2nd street where the air is a bit more Twinky.

I don't remember who said it, but i agree that I rather see show and gogo bars separated. But it's a bad sign to see another gogo disappear. I have seen many turn into host bars or whatever, only few the other way around.

That bar and the one before (throb something) that has never interested me

I just looked it up for you in the 2001/2 Spartacus guide. Your memory is excellent. "Throb Bar" it was called. Next to it was "Splash Bar". All before my time.
And it looks were the Copa hotel is now there was a sauna?? "Body Club Sauna".

[vnman]

See if you can find something about a kick-boxing venue where you could take the boys off.

I asked about this before but cannot find anyone that knows this place. It was probably on tv 25 - 30 some years ago...Dutch TV i might add. The cutest boys were fighting and after the fight you could take them home. Anyway, that is what the report was about. I cannot remember the tone of the report. Could have been anywhere from amazement to disgust.

See if you can find something about a kick-boxing venue where you could take the boys off.

Don't read anything about a Pattaya kick boxing venue where you can take boys off. I checked the 1994/1995 edition and the 2001/2002 edition.

Was it real boxing? Or was it just a bar where the boys simulated boxing as part of a show? Then the bar is maybe listed, but if the guide doesn't say anything about the kind of show then hard for me to find it. Spartacus gives very brief descriptions or none at all.

But if it was a real kick box venue, then I am positive that both editions I checked do not mention it.

[Patanawet]

That bar and the one before (throb something) that has never interested me

"Throb Bar" it was called. Next to it was "Splash Bar". All before my time.

Throb and Splash were one bar conjoined; owned by Kevin. Now Copa.
Before that it was a cabaret bar 'Cockpit' owned by Michael.

[Surfcrest]

Ok clear now. My preference is 16-25 roughly. Luckily all legal in me country. Does this make me an Ephebophile? (Wikipedia says this is the age group 15-19).

And it seems to me to be such a normal preference!

Aren't most people, both hetero and gay, lusting for bodies in that age group? You rarely see a hetero man preferring a 40 year old above a 15-19 year old woman. It is what the average human is wired to like. Car adds show a 18-20 year old woman next to the car, not a 40 year old one, let alone a 30 year old one. How often do we not read about female teachers having sex with their 15-19 year old pupils? It is almost daily in the newspapers. It is extremely common.

Yes I heard the stories about Sunee. I just can't explain it. Because it is very tempting for poor Thai to blackmail these Farang. These Farang have taken huge risks. I do not give a moral judgement (well I will: liking a 16 year old is for me normal, liking a 10 year old is sick).
I'm not sure how luckily legal you'd be in your home country because logically, someone of that age bracket lives at home with their family with the protection of their parents (I'd hope). And while two consenting adults might be a loophole in the law, once you get past that you'd still have to explain procurement. It's like the eye of a storm, foolish for one to think they can engage in that back home in any country including the Netherlands.

Comparing this to 40 year old hetro men chasing after 18 year old women is quite different than what you're chasing in Sunee. Women mature faster than men and young Asian men can look much younger than their age. An Asian "boy" in the 15-19 year old age bracket is likely to look even younger...very "illegal" younger. Is liking a 16 year old normal? No.

Allowing you back Goosood I can see was a failed experiment. Your previous characters AsDaRa (Also AsDaRa2 on Gaybuttonthai), AsItIs, abidismaili and so many others leads me to believe that none of this nonsense or all of it might be true, which makes you a liability for this Board...so adieu once again.

Surfcrest

[BOY69]

That bar and the one before (throb something) that has never interested me

"Throb Bar" it was called. Next to it was "Splash Bar". All before my time.

Throb and Splash were one bar conjoined; owned by Kevin. Now Copa.
Before that it was a cabaret bar 'Cockpit' owned by Michael.

Le Cafe Royal hotel was split to the current one (the owner changed) and to the Copa hotel, so the Copa group includes what was Splash,Throb and a half of Le Cafe Royal years ago.