Shan Shaggers, Chiang Mai

[Tobi]

I've been reading over at http://www.gayinchiangmai.com that the majority of workers in the "entertainment" business in Chiang Mai are Shan People (from Burma?). I have no moral objections whatsoever in paying-to-play when it's entirely voluntary, ie. based on enjoyment or greed, etc. etc. but I do have ethical qualms when it's based on trafficking or absolute necessity. I've not found anything definitive on what the actual score is up north, so if anyone can enlighten me, I'd very much appreciate it. Thanks! Tobi. x

[arsenal]

This is a question about morals and ethics. Therefore I think it's best handled by the boards resident expert on such matters. Latinpox.

[Tobi]

If you have nothing nice to say about someone @arsenal, go sit next to @a447. :P

[Brad the Impala]

Good call Arsenal!

[Tobi]

Just get a room @Brad the Impala, I'm sure @arsenal will do you short time. :P

[a447]

Tobi, he could sit next to me, but it's very crowded at the moment...he'd have to stand up and join the queue...lol

But I love the title of this thread. Hilarious.

See, I can say something nice!

[Tobi]

Aw, thank you. However, I'd rather someone got to answer the sodding question FIRST before you incontinent wombats totally hijack it, although I won't consider that's happened and it's a lost cause until @fountainhall adds seat pitch or duty free shopping tips to it. :P

[a447]

Tobi, the reason why no-one has answered your question is probably because we don't know. How the hell are we supposed to know the background of these guys?? How are we to know if they've been trafficked? To us, they are just sexy guys shuffling about on a stage, hoping to be offed.
Are the Shan boys working out of necessity? Probably, but it's not something I've ever discussed with them. The only discussion revolves around who will be the bottom and who will be the top.
All I know is that after they receive their compensation, they leave the room with a smile on their face.

BTW, you appear to be a new member of this board. However, your comment about Fountainhall tends to suggest otherwise.

So what name did you post under previously?

[Tobi]

Tobi, the reason why no-one has answered your question is probably because we don't know.

Oh, for the love ofтАФ give other people a chance! This board isn't solely about the destitute pursuing prostitutes in Pattaya. It's only been a few hours. I've noticed that the owner of http://www.gayinchiangmai.com kindly answers questions here, and it's from that website I learned of such facts.


So what name did you post under previously?

Beachlover*. :P

*see comments here: http://d.pr/1c71e

Tobi, the reason why no-one has answered your question is probably because we don't know. Oh, for the love ofтАФ give other people a chance! Just think of a447 as I do - the ratty little fox terrier who's forever yapping at your heels. There's no need to take any notice of him.

[Tobi]

What are you? HIs bitch chihuahua?!! :P

What are you? HIs bitch chihuahua?!!Thanks for the suggestion.

[Brad the Impala]

Aw, thank you. However, I'd rather someone got to answer the sodding question FIRST before you incontinent wombats totally hijack it, although I won't consider that's happened and it's a lost cause until @fountainhall adds seat pitch or duty free shopping tips to it. :P

So wise about board ways and yet so newly joined!

[ddsfo]

i think over 90% of the working people in the world do so because they need the money. while there
might be minimum wage rule of 300 baht/day in the LOS, in reality here in chiang mai the shan workers
(typically in construction) make 200 or 250 a day. many of the shan boys do not have legal status
so many other types of work are closed to them. go-go bars are an alternative where they form a
social gang and a family of sorts. they can get food at Adam; if desperate, a place to sleep.
they hang out together, go to after-hour bars and get drunk together.
they are not trafficked from myanmar, the border is porous enough so for some hundreds of baht you
can get here independently.
at least at Adam, they can say "no" to a customer. the manager may not like to hear too many "no's"
but i have gotten "no" with medical excuses and it was OK with her. on occasion i know boys have
been roughly groped and/or the customer was drunk and the boy did not go with him. the boys
are not sex-slaves and if they are "not in the mood" or bored you may get very little play for your pay.

[Smiles]

This topic is of no interest to me, but " ... incontinent wombats ... " shows flare. :D

Carry on ...

[BonTong]

Tobi, the reason why no-one has answered your question is probably because we don't know.

Oh, for the love ofтАФ give other people a chance! This board isn't solely about the destitute pursuing prostitutes in Pattaya. It's only been a few hours. I've noticed that the owner of http://www.gayinchiangmai.com kindly answers questions here, and it's from that website I learned of such facts.

I don't want to get dragged into a flame war, but since Tobi asked so nicely and it is a topic I know something about, I'll try to respond within the limitations of a public forum.

You could write a book on this subject and still not fully explain it; before, trying to comprehend the situation with the Shan and trafficking in Chiang Mai there are couple of pre-requisites to understand.

1. The issue of trafficking has become very emotive and many NGOs and Christian organisations use this to promote their own agendas and raise money for their activities. Some have a blatant anti-gay agenda and want the world to believe that the sole cause of exploitation of тАЬboysтАЭ in Chiang Mai is nasty gay farang paedophile sex abusers. Many of the other reasons behind trafficking, and what goes, on they choose to ignore. There is a great deal of deliberate misinformation out there, which seeks to highlight the effects rather than the causes.
[list=2:2c1nh3yu]2. There is one subject in Chiang Mai that is rarely discussed openly, but has been a major factor in the city's development and what goes on here. ItтАЩs how many of the nouveau rich made their money and is a significant factor in the power base of influential people and the structures of organised crime. It is not something IтАЩm going to expound on in a public forum, but if you donтАЩt understand this hidden factor and its reach, you canтАЩt understand Chiang Mai and Northern Thailand. /:) [/list:o:2c1nh3yu]

As a direct answer, quite a few Shan boys working in the bars have been trafficked or exploited, though not always in a direct way. You have to remember the whole bar business is controlled by organised crime and interlinked with #2 above and other activities such as illegal gambling. There are quite a few working in тАЬDebt servitudeтАЭ to unscrupulous bar owners. Many are paying dues to the Shan Mafia and other traffickers too.

A typical example of indirect trafficking is when Shan boys are trafficked from refugee camps and controlled areas near the border to work as low paid labour in Chiang MaiтАЩs construction industry (i.e the boy pays money and/or is in debt to a trafficker to get them out of the camp, or across the border, and to a job in CM. Some are even sold to traffickers by their families!). They start living on site but eventually get to meet up with other Shan people and interact with their peers. Their social life starts off innocently drinking Chang beer, then Lao Khao and sooner or later proceeds to #2 :-o .

Once that bridge is crossed, working construction becomes a problem and #2 has certain costs associated with it. One of their new тАЬfriendsтАЭ then introduces them to the sex industry. Sooner or later they get busted, money changes hands and they are locked in by their habits and тАЬdebt servitudeтАЭ. Of course, itтАЩs not like they had many better prospects.

On the other hand, there is a minority of the boys who saw the opportunity for a professional career and came to the job out of choice to make money. They are usually very good at what they do.

I would have liked to write a much longer answer as the above hardly scratches the surface. But, we are talking about organised crime, gangsters, mafia, tribal militias, and rebel armies with factors that reach right to the top in Thailand. ItтАЩs best not say too much.

[attachment=0:2c1nh3yu]Khun Sa - Mon Tong Army.jpg[/attachment:2c1nh3yu]
To understand Chiang Mai you have to understand the history

[BonTong]

go-go bars are an alternative where they form a
social gang and a family of sorts. they can get food at Adam; if desperate, a place to sleep.
they hang out together, go to after-hour bars and get drunk together.
Your rose tinted glasses work well. I always thought go-go bars were houses of prostitution :-\ .

Next we'll be hearing they get free Thai ID cards, full medical insurance for life and a full salary pension at age 25. Oh sorry I forgot, none of them actually get a salary...... Though you would think some of the bars could run to a clothing allowance for some clean, well fitting white underwear.


they are not trafficked from myanmar, the border is porous enough so for some hundreds of baht you can get here independently.
Yes, and this includes payment of the necessary bribes to get to Chiang Mai without being stopped at check points. How is that NOT trafficking when they are paying someone to facilitate their illegal transportation :-? ?

[Tobi]

Hey BonTong,

Firstly, thank you so much for wading past the tap-tap-tourettes and their addled inanities to answer my original question. I wasn't expecting such a considered and indepth response. It really is appreciated.

Secondly, I get "#2", and also understand it's never simple, ie. if no-one offs them, how will they eat? etc. However, despite my madly spinning moral compass, there are some directions that I don't go and this тАФ for me тАФ is one of them.

If you know of any legitimate organisation that is genuinely trying to help "these guys" (sorry, having looked, I'm unsure if Shan People, Tai Yai, Hill Tribes, etc. are all one and the same category in this regard) and that hopefully isn't a God-squad with an anti-gay agenda, I'd be grateful if you'd post it here, or PM me if you'd prefer.

Again, many thanks for taking the time and trouble to give me an "edumacation". :)

Tobi. x

[ddsfo]

i often enjoy your posts here, Bon Tong. your sarcastic self-righteous reply to me is disappointing.

but continuing in your style,
i assume you never enter larger buildings in this town built less than
15 years ago since they were mostly built with exploited shan blood.

before sitting down at a restaurant/bar, do you check in the kitchen for any illegal shan workers
making 200 baht/day?

i used the phrase "social gang and family of sorts". "gang" is not without a dark side when it involves young men.
almost all boys there learned of Adam through friends there. some boys make connections
and stay awhile. others soon get tired of the exploitation (no salary) and leave.

CM go-go bars are not paradise because of the reality of food and some shelter being available.
your welfare state sarcasm adds nothing to the decision.

there are numerous dynamics in the bars that bother me but are you insinuating that they are involved in
human trafficking? there is no slavery nor forced labor. exploited, yes, but that is not trafficking.
and exploitation is common around here. the very public cabaret show in the night bazaar area
requires a 7 day/week work commitment. a typical workday is about 5 hours. earlier this year
the salary was 5000 baht/month (they recently got a 1000 baht raise). that now works out to 200 baht/day
but i guess it is less than a full work day so it is "OK" that it is less than 300 baht.

[marti]

Does anyone else find Tobi's attitude a bit of a put off?

[dab69]

Does anyone else find Tobi's attitude a bit of a put off?


+1

she's probably overcompensating again for
her "rope" learning

[thaiguest]

I've been reading over at http://www.gayinchiangmai.com that the majority of workers in the "entertainment" business in Chiang Mai are Shan People (from Burma?). I have no moral objections whatsoever in paying-to-play when it's entirely voluntary, ie. based on enjoyment or greed, etc. etc. but I do have ethical qualms when it's based on trafficking or absolute necessity. I've not found anything definitive on what the actual score is up north, so if anyone can enlighten me, I'd very much appreciate it. Thanks! Tobi. x

I have ethical qualms about YOU.
Anyone who knows anything about the Thai Yai (Shan) from C. Mai or C. Rai knows that the vast majority has not recently arrived from Burma. Their families have settled there for many generation and are full Thai citizens. I met many Thai Yai boys who speak only Thai.

[christianpfc]

others soon get tired of the exploitation (no salary) and leave.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they leave because they are not popular with customers. I cannot imagine a boy who is popular leaving the bar and working something else (low paid, long hours, dirty dusty dangerous).

Getting on the stage in underwear the first time is the most difficult step, from then on it gets easier. (Conclusion from my own development regarding being seen nude by other, maybe far fetched.)

At prices close to what you pay in Europe (comparing apples with pears: gogo bars in Thailand to directly arranged meetings with money boys without middle men; from what I read, no personal experience with prostitution in Europe), it is rather the customer who is exploited.

[ddsfo]

some boys make connections and stay awhile. usually that
means spending nights with customers but on occasion
there are boys that seem to get by on tips and being with
customers in the bar.

if a boy is popular enough then he makes an income
and doesn't notice the exploitation (no salary). his
"salary" goes towards supporting the bar where
he makes connections to customers so perhaps
he then tolerates this.

[BonTong]

i often enjoy your posts here, Bon Tong. your sarcastic self-righteous reply to me is disappointing.
Apologies, I'm always sorry to be a disappointment. :ymsmug:


before sitting down at a restaurant/bar, do you check in the kitchen for any illegal shan workers making 200 baht/day?
In many of the places I go to the, customers are Shan . The people being exploited in the kitchen are often Wa Deang or Jin Haw :-o .

Believe me, I absolutely understand the issues of Shan exploitation. And the reasons why they are treated the way they are by Thai people, and allowed to be treated that way by Thai officialdom are quite abhorrent. You are preaching to the converted on this one.


i used the phrase "social gang and family of sorts". "gang" is not without a dark side when it involves young men.
almost all boys there learned of Adam through friends there. I can't comment about Adam specifically, given my connection with it.

Aside from the bars, you maybe understand already that there is a big gang culture among Tai Yai youth in Chiang Mai and this extends right back into Burma and places like Loi Tai Leng or its adversaries. It has a very dark side to it :-$ . These outside gangs also extend into the bars in various ways. To understand it better read some of the history about the gentlemen who's picture I posted earlier, then extrapolate that through to the current day activities of the various interested groups on both sides of the border. This is part of the #2 I referred to in an earlier post.

The gangs and the Shan social community in CM look after their own quite well. It is good business for the bars to provide some paternalistic assistance to the boys, and also to be seen to be doing so in the eyes of Western patrons. However, the reality is they are psuedo legal businesses there to make money for their owners and parters in crime, and not social welfare centres. Hence my caustic response to your comments.


there are numerous dynamics in the bars that bother me but are you insinuating that they are involved in human trafficking? there is no slavery nor forced labor. exploited, yes, but that is not trafficking. and exploitation is common around here.
Good, we are agreed on the exploitation part, which I might add, anyone who visits a go-go bar is partaking in. "Debt Servitude", happens too: some might call this a common sense business practice, others would call it exploitation or forced labour. The rest depends on how you define trafficking.

The UN defines Human Trafficking as (https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/human-trafficking/what-is-human-trafficking.html):

The recruitment, transportation, transfer, harbouring or receipt of persons, by means of the threat or use of force or other forms of coercion, of abduction, of fraud, of deception, of the abuse of power or of a position of vulnerability or of the giving or receiving of payments or benefits to achieve the consent of a person having control over another person, for the purpose of exploitation. Exploitation shall include, at a minimum, the exploitation of the prostitution of others or other forms of sexual exploitation, forced labour or services, slavery or practices similar to slavery, servitude or the removal of organs

I'm not insinuating anything. However, some Shan boys have certainly come to be working in the bars via a route which at some point, either directly or indirectly, included one of the methods set out above. I leave it to others to apply their own moral judgement as to how this is or isn't trafficking and how much the bars and their silent partners are complicit in it.

This is a difficult subject and I do not want in any way to support the agendas of some groups, as I set out in point #1 of my earlier post. Furthermore, as stated several times, the big picture here involves groups of people and their actions that could not be safely discussed on an open forum.

[BonTong]

If you know of any legitimate organisation that is genuinely trying to help "these guys" (sorry, having looked, I'm unsure if Shan People, Tai Yai, Hill Tribes, etc. are all one and the same category in this regard) and that hopefully isn't a God-squad with an anti-gay agenda, I'd be grateful if you'd post it here, or PM me if you'd prefer.

Shan is the English name for the ethnic group largely inhabiting the Shan State, it is a subset of the Tai ethnic group and they are called Tai Yai (meaning big. or greater Tai) in the Thai language (N.B it is Tai Yai NOT Thai Yai). The Shan refer to themselves as Tai. The Shan then has many sub groups.

There are also many other Burmese ethnic groups apart from the Burmese themselves (i.e Bamar or Bumans) These include the Karen and Katchin; people from both groups live in Chiang Mai, many as refugees. There are also the hill tribes who are native to northern Thailand and neighbouring countries. These include Akha, Mong, Lahu and Karen.

Of western organisations/NGOs working with the Shan it's hard to find many serious ones that don't have a religious motivation. Many support organisations are run by the Shan themselves, or the power structures related to the Shan State Army and Restoration Council of the Shan State amongst others. I suspect many are wary of the Christian organisations given the damage inflicted on the Akha people and their culture by the Christian Missionaries - but that is another story.

A good starting point for information is: panglong.org (http://www.english.panglong.org/), a major resource on all things Shan, and produced in Chiang Mai by Shan people.


Again, many thanks for taking the time and trouble to give me an "edumacation".
I'm glad it was useful.

[latintopxxx]

seems like everyone is a flipping victim...and the moment they gain some power they turn into abusers...look at south sudan....to be frank I dont even know what to believe anymore....reminds me of the story of when a priest was asking for an extra collection during sunday mass for the starving ethiopians...and a little old lady put her hand up and said..."but father when I was a little girl they were already starving...shouldnt they all be dead by now" ....remember live aid?? didint solve the problem...and even now when some people try to help its accepted sorta grudgingly because of supposedly negative christian connotations...its like I'm hungry but please only lobster and champagne for me.....

[catawampuscat]

When I was a lad, mum would say, finish your dinner, people are starving in China. Never made much sense to me.
Farangs rationalize paying
for sex. It's easy to do. Morality parameters were forever destroyed by hypocritical child rapist clergymen whose
main function was to teach sin and guilt, hatred and diddle as many preteens as they could.

Bon Tong one of the few that knows what he's talking about. He certainly knows the gay scene in Chaing Mai

[BonTong]

Bon Tong one of the few that knows what he's talking about. He certainly knows the gay scene in Chaing Mai
Thank you.

Here is another take on Shan boys and Trafficking (http://www.gayinchiangmai.com/News/2015/shan-boys-trafficking/) that some might enjoy ;)

[latintopxxx]

I'm not convinced!!! Now explain the rent boys in Rio, Sao paulo, Cape Toen, Joburg, Praugue, Morocco, and more....are they all trafficked?