Contact Lost With Air Asia Flight Over Indonesia

[fountainhall]

News is filtering in of an incident involving Air Asia Flight QZ8501 which took off from Surabaya in Indonesia and was scheduled to land in Singapore at 08:30 this morning. Soon after 07:00 (Singapore time) the pilot apparently requested an unusual routing. At 07:24 contact with the aircraft was lost. The Airbus A320-200 was then flying over the Java Sea and is reported to have had 155 passengers and crew aboard - almost all Indonesians. The plane has not landed in Singapore. Search and Rescue crews are on their way to the scene. The background colour on Air Asia's Facebook page logo has been changed from red to grey.

[Surfcrest]

[youtube:3vax5bzv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuFDNEuOJVI[/youtube:3vax5bzv]

[fountainhall]

As the search for the remains of QZ8501 continues into another week, there has been a great deal of speculation as to what happened and why. One source of more informed comment is the Professional Pilots Rumour network, PPRuNE.org. Accepting that this is a site for rumour and conjecture, the comments are generally from professional pilots, engineers and ground personnel. Thus they are more informed тАУ and vastly more technical тАУ than the usual rumour mills. As usual with chat sites, though, some posters will have axes to grind, pet theories to promote - and it is sometimes difficult to winnow out fact from fiction.

Having read through its 1255 posts to date, though, certain issues have come up that have mostly escaped comment from the professional media commentators тАУ and even the experts they regularly put on air to give their opinions. Here is a sample.

Sudden Change of Departure Time

We know that Air Asia moved the time of its departure from Surabaya forward by about 2 hours. Some passengers could not be contacted and turned up at the airport to be told the flight had departed. So this change was made at extremely short notice. Why has no reason so far been given for this? (Post 1117)

However, anyone who has read through Air Asia's Terms & Conditions will have noted this clause -

9.1 However, times shown in timetables, schedules or elsewhere are subject to change at any time and from time to time and we shall not be liable in any way whatsoever for any loss incurred by passengers as a result of such change
In other words, we have the right to fly you when we want to fly irrespective of the date/time printed on your ticket or whether or not we are able to inform you in advance! Caveat Emptor!

Provision of Official Weather Report

No Weather Report was provided by Surabaya Airport Authorities to the pilots.

There are regulations about preflight weather briefing that each and every pilot has to take before they fly. But AirAsia doesn't do that. They expect their pilots to download the weather forecast them self and print it out them self. Its just plainly wrong to break every rules that we have, in the name of cost efficiency. (Post #1156)
Today has seen publication of leaked information that the pilots took off without any requested weather forecast for the route. That information only arrived at Air Asia in Surabaya after contact with the plane was lost.

Leaked official documents show Indonesia AirAsia had allegedly violated procedures which resulted in the pilots of the doomed flight QZ8501 not receiving a requested weather report before flying out into stormy weather, Jakarta Post reported today . . . тАЬAirAsia took the (BMKG - IndonesiaтАЩs Meteorology, Climatology and Geophysics Agency) weather report at 7amтАЭ. . . Flight QZ8501 departed from SurabayaтАЩs Juanda International Airport at 5.35am local time.
http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malay ... pers-show1 (http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/indonesia-airasia-pilots-didnt-get-weather-report-leaked-papers-show1)

The First Officer (FO)/Co-Pilot

We know the First Officer was French. What we do not know is his official relationship to Air Asia. There is a lot of discussion on PPRuNe about тАЬP2FтАЭ тАУ pay to fly! Some airlines will accept first officers on the basis of the flying skills on their resumes (often in light aircraft) and their ability to pay the airline for their seat! Extraordinary as this may seem, rather like some Formula 1 drivers first officers on some airlines literally pay the airline to fly so they can build up their flying hours.

We know the French First Officer changed careers close to mid-life and only got his PilotsтАЩ License at the age of 42. This has brought the following response from a pilot setting out the minimum requirements -

1500 hours on basic airplanes with no or little automation,ideally flown as an instructor constantly practicing stalls and basic maneuvers are a background that no AFDS protection can substitute. Stop P2F and enforce such rule worldwide or more and more people will die. If I had to start an airline I would only hire pilots with FI rating and experience. (Post #915)
This in turn brought more responses тАУ

With you there, but, the problem is the "suits"/ accountants ain't gonna let it happen, as FO's are now a revenue source too (Post #929)

The FO was a P2F? And a midlife career change at that - usually the very worst candidates for a professional flying job are the career change guys. If you don't start this profession at an early age, the innate skills aren't firmly planted. (Post #917)
To be fair on the First Officer, there is as yet no confirmation that he was P2F when actually flying that aircraft.

What High Altitude Stall Procedures had the cockpit crew been given during Flight Simulator Training?

We know from many posts that flight simulator testing rarely puts pilots through very high altitude procedures in the case of pitot tube failures and how to get out of stall situations. This post headed тАЬCEO Mr Fernandez тАУ tell us about their simulator trainingтАЭ) sums it up тАУ

Simulator training? What a joke. My first high altitude stall scenario came after AF fell into the ocean. That was also the last time I have done high altitude stalls. (#959)
Authority to Fly the Route

Whilst the Indonesians are claiming Air Asia had authority only to fly on four days per week between Surabaya and Singapore and Sunday was not one of these days, the Civil Aviaition Authorty of Singapore has confirmed that Air Asia had the rights to vary its schedule on the route тАЬin response to market demand or operational requirements.тАЭ (From Post #1117) Singapore therefore had no issue with the flight landing on a Sunday.

Insurance for the Plane and Passengers

If the Indonesian governmentтАЩs claim is correct, though, there will almost certainly be massive repercussions regarding insurance.


Insurance Coverage would be denied. I took this paragraph from the Air Asia (site)

Insurance

тАЬCommercial flights scheduled by AirAsia Berhad, it being always understood that by AirAsia Berhad has at all times the requisite and valid licences or similar authorisations for scheduled air transportation and landing rights for fare paying passengers as issued by the relevant authorities in the country in which it operates, and that in accordance with such authorisation, maintain and publish schedules and tariffs for passenger service between named airports.тАЭ

Since it does not have the appropriate authorisations (i.e. Route permit) than the insurance company can decline to pay. (From Post #1156)
It seems Mr. Fernandez may be facing quite a number of additional questions sooner rather than later.

What I've seen relates largely to the total incompetence of Indonesian Air Traffic Control. As well, in the last 24 hours there's been a lot of chatter about whether Air Asia has a permit to fly that route on that day of the week. AA says it's a seasonal permit and they did, Indonesia ATC says it isn't and they didn't - which begs the question of what the Indonesian authorities actually manage.

It reminds me of a friend who once sat in a Quaintarse aircraft at the old Don Meuang airport while the pilot gave a 5-minute rant over the PA about the complete, total, utter incompetence of the Thais. Perhaps a447 was on duty that day and can give us further details?

[fountainhall]

It reminds me of a friend who once sat in a Quaintarse aircraft at the old Don Meuang airport while the pilot gave a 5-minute rant over the PA about the complete, total, utter incompetence of the Thais.
No doubt that was the pilot of the Qantas 744 which was landing at Don Mueang during a rainstorm in 1999, overshot the runway and got stuck in a ditch. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau ruled this as pilot error and blamed Qantas for not teaching their pilots "how to land on wet runways"!! :-o

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... in/452118/ (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/452118/)

And that's why Quaintarse stopped using Bangkok as a hub and moved all their operations to Singapore. Bangkok now gets a single (terminating) Quaintarse flight a day and a single Jeffstar flight every other day so a friend tells me (thanks a447).

[a447]

Always a pleasure, Kommie. Please feel free to ask me anything to do with Australia - better than taking a random guess and getting it wrong.

Always a pleasure, Kommie. Please feel free to ask me anything to do with Australia - better than taking a random guess and getting it wrong.What a fun fortnight it's going to be.

[a447]

Yep! I'll be fucking myself stupid over the next fortnight. Sure gonna be fun.

What about you? Mrs Palmer and her five daughters??.....lol

BTW, I think I might pick you up on yet another factual error. Stand by!

[fountainhall]

And that's why Quaintarse stopped using Bangkok as a hub and moved all their operations to Singapore. Bangkok now gets a single (terminating) Quaintarse flight a day and a single Jeffstar flight every other day so a friend tells me (thanks a447).
QF pulled out because it made a massive mess of its European operations over the last 15 years. 2 years ago it sold its soul to Emirates who are now taking most of its European business. Much of the detail can be found in the book "The Men Who Killed Qantas".

[christianpfc]

However, anyone who has read through Air Asia's Terms & Conditions will have noted this clause -

9.1 However, times shown in timetables, schedules or elsewhere are subject to change at any time and from time to time and we shall not be liable in any way whatsoever for any loss incurred by passengers as a result of such change
In other words, we have the right to fly you when we want to fly irrespective of the date/time printed on your ticket or whether or not we are able to inform you in advance! Caveat Emptor!
I haven't, but I'm aghast at this idea, as well as letting pilots pay to fly to collect hours. I will check alternatives before I book a flight with Air Asia again. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

[scottish-guy]

I rather suspect that many legacy airlines and almost all low-─Зost airlines will have similar clauses written into their T&Cs - but do I have sufficient interest to check it out - no.

Within the EU at least, such actions would entitle the passenger to compensation whatever the T&Cs may say

I'll be fucking myself stupid over the next fortnight.Based on your reports that's certainly true - you are fucking yourself, stupid. However that isn't the fortnight to which I am referring as you well know you sly minx. However, Mum's the word.
BTW, I think I might pick you up on yet another factual error.I didn't start holding my breath as quite frankly I don't care whether I make some error or another.

In examining the motivation for my posts you need to keep Occam's Razor in mind.

[a447]

You've already told us the reason for your posts - apparently, it's for your "own entertainment."

May I suggest you stick to the other "own entertainment" we are all familiar with. That way, you'll save yourself from the embarrasing clangers in your posts.

Just an idea. Remember Kommie, I'm here to help!

That way, you'll save yourself from the embarrasing clangers in your posts.As I've made it clear I am not all embarrassed by the clangers to which you refer so if you imagine that they are somehow a deterrent to me posting you are sadly mistaken; I shall keep on posting as I always have.

[Surfcrest]

[youtube:2v9ciq50]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn_M9xJwvU8[/youtube:2v9ciq50]

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/airasia-plane-crash-caused-by-faulty-component-crew-action/ar-AAfSpv2?ocid=spartandhp

The conclusion to the tragedy: