Is the word " I love you" has any meaning at all?

[ziv77]

I am posting this question after having a very bad experience just last week. The story begins when I wrote to J ..who I saw in Gay Thailand. He is from Vietnam, 28 years of age, very cute, has a nice smile, Intelligent, university graduate. We were writing to each other for almost 4 months in the Internet, sending SMS messages. Slowly, getting to know each other, We both felt attached to each other, to the extent that every mail was signed off with "I love you" "I think about you all the time" "I miss you" and more. I wish to emphasize, that I live 10,000 km away from Vietnam. With the messages, I begun to phone him occasionally, and indeed i fell in love with a person that I never met. I was led to believe that our feelings are both mutual, and we love each other very much. So far so good. We made a point to meet in Bangkok last week for few days and then go to Pattaya, being together with each other. Proper arrangments were made, I booked hotel in Bangkok and J.. booked in Pattaya. On the 12 of this month, J.. flew in from Vietname and I flew to Bangkok. He was waiting for me at the airport, and our meeting was very exciting. Sex between us was divine. I gave J.. many presents that I brought over for him, but never heared the word "THANKS": Of course, Being the older guy, I paid for our meals etc. The second date I took J.. to a fancy resturant, after having a good dinner together we left. Again, J.. never said "thanks". This has moved me a bit to the extent that I asked him, why dont you say thanks? you are inviting a guy every where, at leasr the guy should appreciate it. From my question, J.. was offended - yes offended and made a sour face From that point, I dont know nor understand, our relations started to deteriorate, and next day, J.. decided to take a room by himself, and not to stay with me, claiming, that he has to work at night, as he brought over his laptop with him. We of course continued to stay at the same hotel, I on floor 11, he on floor 12. I tried to understand, asking him, how can you say that you love and make such a big fuss out of a question, but never got a striaght forward reply. One evening we stil went out, the remining 2 evenings J.. went out by himself. I understood that he will be going by himself to Pattaya. I have tried to reason with him why he is behaving the way that he does but to no avail. I came from such a long way to be with him, as all was planed between us, and suddenly because of my question, everything turned upside down. On Saturday the 17th inst, I left the hotel early in the morning, going to Thai office downtown, and J.. left for Pattaya. When I camr back I found a note from him say that he is sorry for hurting me, signing "I LOVE YOU"
I was down to earth, and so hurt, that I guy whom I stil love very much can act the way he did. Never will understand how can one hurt the other with no reason at all. I decided that i am going back to my country, after having changed my flight ticket for Sunday the 18th.

I phoned j... in pattaya and told him that i leave tomorow, and thought that he would have at least phoned to ask how do i feel but yok.

J... has the habit to reply to almost everyone who writes to him signing these messages "Kiss and Hugs", while on one hand telling me of his love to me etc. he told me about an Australian guy who is prepared to do everything for him, planing to visit him at the end of the year in Vietnam. May be J.. writes tp him ,as well as ,to me that he loves him, who knows? I love him very much and I am so hurt by him of no reason whatsoever, and fail to understand this situation. How can a guy spit in your face the way he did. He is not a guy of the street, he is well manered and educated. God - who can give me a reply as to WHY??? I said to him ok just let me know why??? True, the world did not start with J... nor will it end with him.

Readers, please let me have your opinion, as I am now in a terrible state of mind, feeling very hurt with tears in my eyes
Thanks

Thank you is not something part or said in the asian culture. It is something we as westerners are brought up to say and expect in return for giving something. Most thai boys after being around farangs know that we expect it and will say thank you. This is where two cultures collide and often makes it difficult in dealing with an boy. The failure here is to understand asian culture and expect too much from the boy too quickly as he first must understand you and what you want to hear. That being said It sound slike their may be a wife or gf on the side.

"Thank you" is not said in Asian culture? But bar boys have somehow "learned that farangs expect it", so they say it?

Where do you morons come up with this stupid misinformation?

[ziv77]

Is that a reason to behave the way he did just because of a difference between cultures?
He knows quite well to say thank you and he did say it on few occasions but not to me. This notwithstanding the fact that the guy in question is well educated

I love you and i love sex with you mean so many different things.

1 is so eay to say - the other is nice but often can change quickly.

99% of asians do say thank you - but its if they mean it or not is what you need to know.

Well, thank you is used differently in Thailand, than at least the US.
Americans quite often have the habit of saying Thank You in a restaurant everytime a waiter brings anything. This can get to be a little ridiculous if you keep asking for little services, but again, it is quite common, and considered good manners.
In Thailand, I have been advised by Thais that to say thank you to a waiter for ANYTHING makes you the Thank You sayer look like a freakin' idiot. It is still a hard habit to break.

About your Viet guy, yes there are cultural differences, but he sounds like a higher end MB to me, eh?

[ziv77]

The Isuue here is not thank you yes or no. The issue here is that I believed in a guy who wrote to me every day how much he loves me, and that he thinks of me all the time, and that for almost 4 months with messages going back and forth, and all of that before we met. When we did meet he was offended about my remark that at least thanks you I deserve for gifts given to him, for spending money etc. All what i wanted is for him to show some kind of appreciation. He is not a money boy by all means. , and because of a remark made by me our whole relation broke up. I am asking is that Love?? I am not naive but how can anyone behave to another, when I came 10000 km to be with him as we plant
This is the issue not the thanks you

Who can know exactly what went on between you to, but as an outsider looking at what you said, I don't think it is at all surprising that a love relationship started BEFORE meeting in person fizzled out so quickly in REAL LIFE. In fact, it would be much more uncommon if it didn't. Ever consider he used the thank you issue as an excuse? Anybody experienced in relationships and relationship ENDINGS knows about the MOMENT in a newer relationship when one or both realize IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. It is usually a very little thing, but it just RUBS the WRONG WAY, and the other realizes he really doesn't or cannot have love feelings for the other. I think your friend had a MOMENT.

[Dboy]

In asian culture, relations between humans are considered to be a type of warfare. Seems to be that "love" is another tool in this war.


Dboy

I'm still trying to figure out what "Asian culture" is. I suppose it may refer to that which is common between the cultures of Papua New Guinea, Bhutan, Iran, and Sri Lanka...whatever that may be.

And you guys laugh at Thai boys for thinking all "farangs" are the same!

Hi Ziv,

I think Thaiquila's post is probably right - however, while the relationship might have been unrealistic - I imagine the pain you have feels very real. You sound like a nice guy, with a lot of love to give. Easier said then done, but try to move on - and find somone more deserving,

[catawampuscat]

Most of us living in Thailand have witnessed Thai boys and girls at the internet cafes with three or four or more farangs on screen and they are
telling each one that they love him and they miss them and the reason the need the money.. While most farangs realize it is a con game, many
farangs also play the I love you game for their own reasons and sometimes it is the Thai boy that believes the farang and he gets hurt..

It is a game and the author was lucky that this encounter started off well and that he at least got his jollies for a while..Probably, the Vietnamese
guy had two or three or more farangs whom he was meeting in BKK and probably moved on to a better prospect, maybe with more money or just a sexier
body or more handsome face.. The fact that he had a laptop would indicate to me that he was not just in contact with one farang.. He probably
didn't like the farang or thought he could do better.. It sure wasn't love!!

I recently had a boy tell me he loved me on the first off..I was amused and laughed and told him I had many years experience in Thailand
and that I like many boys and have many boyfriends etc.. I made the mistake of giving him my mobile number and he started the I love you
SMS and phone calls..The sex was excellent and I offed him a couple of more times and then he started telling me how he wanted to quit go go
dancing and start a business..His birthday was fast approaching and he had to go to his village for a family ocassion.. When I continued to tell
him in English and Thai (mai dai works wonders as it means "cannot") that I liked him but didn't love him or want him for a boyfriend, he just
keep up the SMS and last time I went to his bar, he was pouting and pleading with me about his love and upcoming birthday but I held firm and repeated
that "I am the boss, I like sex, I like many boys and don't want a boyfriend" and he finally seemed to get it when I refused to buy him a drink,
or offer him a seat and told him I would not go with him for his birthday.. Even great sex is not worth getting into the emotional trap and all the
bullshit of the I love you crap.. I was actually insulted that this boy would think I was so stupid to fall for the lies, especially after he knew my long
history and I made it clear that I didn't love him but liked the sex.. He will no doubt find a sucker in Pattaya who believes him and falls for
the con game and rescues him from the go go bar and sets him up in business..good luck to all and I don't love you or even like you......... :cat:

Catawampuscat,

While you speak with much more experience then myself, I do believe in love, and think (hope) that it can happen.

It isnтАЩt easy, and both Farang/Thai have to take big emotional gambles and trust one another with how they feel тАУ but if the gamble pays off, I think it is worth it!

[Smiles]

" . . . take big emotional gambles and trust one another ~ if the gamble pays off, I think it is worth it! . . . "
It is absolutely worth it! And it absolutely can succeed . . . although success is a minority achievement.
But looking around me here at home amongst my friends' past and present relationships, the same could easily be said.

Having said that, I would venture to guess that attempting long-term relationships with (let's say) 18-24 year-old GoGo bar boys is almost assuredly a losing proposition.

Cheers ...

I am so sorry to read your story and it is clear that you feel very hurt by the way you have been treated.

Communication between people from different cultures can be fraught with difficulties.

However, to fall in love with a person you have never met is a huge risk. It is possible that once you two met, one of you would have changed his mind. Since you remained attached, you are the one who feels hurt, the other man has the control because he chose to end it, not you.

You left quickly, clearly too hurt to continue the holiday alone when you had planned and dreamt of the time together with your new lover.

Please do your best to let go of him and move on. He clearly does not want you, and that hurts, a lot probably..........

But you are someone who is capable of love, and searching for a special someone, so please lick you wounds and keep searching.

It has taken me a long time ( I am 47 now) to find a special person, but after almost two years of travelling to meet each other, and keeping daily contact (it has not been easy, and we have split up once last year) we are now planning our "wedding" for December this year.

So I can tell you that it is possible, you must go on believing that. But at the same time you must guard your heart too, and limit the damage when things go wrong. I cna remember many times when I have been hurt in the past, and one or two when I have been the one hurting someone else, not intentionally, but simply because I did not feel the same way about him as he felt for me. Unrequited love is the worst!!!

Take care, and I wish you well.

Love makes blind, a tunnel that makes you see your boyfriend as what you like him to be, not what he real is. All lovers wake up sooner or later.

Was it worth it ? Difficult question for many of us ...


ps : not copy cat ! :albino:

[Jetsam]

Love makes blind, a tunnel that makes you see your boyfriend as what you like him to be, not what he real is. All lovers wake up sooner or later.

Was it worth it ? Difficult question for many of us ...


ps : not copy cat ! :albino:

Very true Baziel, and they become your god once you are back in farangland , been there done that. Someone in this thread said that some farangs like to play a game with the moneyboys too, Ok I confess guilty , because it give me connection to the place I love .
I say to them I love u , in reality I don't love them but the place they live in.
And the moneyboy say I love u, but they don't love me but my money, simple as that.

... time in Thailand I fell in love, or so I thought! My second time I did the same. Of course in reality it was nothing of the sort, it was a mutually beneficial financial arrangement.

My present num friend, who I have been seeing for 2 months, is possibly the best Thai partner I have had, however, this time neither of us has at any time said I love you. We have said 'like' but never love. I do love his smile and laugh and the way he has a great time and tries to talk more and more English everyday. I love his dancing, his dodgy attempts at singing, his style, his love of Isan, his friends, the way he gets animated over a game of pool, the way he is still coy about being naked and the way he kisses. Again, the reality is that I am not going to be living in Thailand and as soon as I leave I know there will be another Farang to take my place. Perhaps if I was staying this is the one guy I would like to make a long term relationship with, but for us 'holidaymakers', I think the idea of love and long distance relationships should be put firmly in context.

There are a million stories in the naked city.

Come here.
Read all about 'Asian culture'--And (when you are thoroughly confused) forget it all!

I truly believe 'They' are as individual as anyone--And wonder (But not too much) if 'they' are 'acting' the stereotype? Acting: because 'They' think--&/or have been told, &/or we prove it by our actions--we expect it.

If I understand correctly; everything was fine until you asked for (verbal) thanks. Until that point; was he, by his actions, showing you he cared? Or might he have thought he was?
There's this 'thought' :drunken: from the ([i]Stupid) 70's movie: Love Story; (Dumb, whiny) theme song: ) Love Means You Don't Have to Say You're Sorry. It might be saying, "I love you," covers a lot of ground; fortunate or unfortunate, inaccurate deception, be that as it may.
That's why some (Catty-whup-em.) lean toward the 40's: "I Told You That I Love You, Now Get Out!"

And I'm not making light of your situation...well, no more than I do of anything else in life. How can one take seriously anything we enter...the way we enter life? By way of a...ugh!...I can't even type the word!

So now you know all you need know about Thai Culture and the Naked City; stop picking at the saddle sore and get back on the horse!...Before you wake up tomorrow--And find you're 93! (Like Pearl.)


ps : not copy cat ! :albino:
No, that's a copy rabbit.

And, just for the record, there's only one game I play with num: Hide the Sa...ng Thip. (What did you think I was going to say?)

Edith I Love You.

I consider it a rare treat if my friend at least wais when I give him something - I never gets "thanks" (in any lauguage) - but if I feel I need a "thank you" I ask for it gently and playfully: "cop khun mai?"

As noted by t/quila, my teacher taught that the thanking we go on with at every turn is just not done (or expected) in Thailand.

Edith I Love You.

How much?

(I love you too.)

boygeenyus is heads above the group on the issue of culture.

On another note - ziv77 if you resolve the problems (family, career, financial, etc.) that you are facing in your life at home, you might find that the wisdom deep down inside rises and solves your current emotional dilemma.

[Aunty]

I agree 100% with TrickyRich. Dude the guy just wasn't that much into you, if he was he wouldn't have treated you in such an inconsiderate and hurtful way. The guy has being a deliberately hurtful shit towards you, and the sooner you let go of him the sooner you can begin to heal and move on. Just notch it up to experience. An adventure, nothing ventured nothing gained! - but it just didn't work out. No harm in that. At least you found out what a user asshole he was when you first met him and not 6 months later when you'd given the wanker your soul as well as your heart and $10,000!

Mate this is really an important message for Gay men to learn and understand when they first meet or are getting to know another guy. Never, NEVER PAY ANY ATTENTION TO WHAT HE SAYS TO YOU, JUST PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT HE DOES TO YOU. When it comes to men, actions really do speak louder than words. Guys bullshit dude, wise up! They do it all the time. However what they do will tell you where their heart is at, not their sweet talking lying filthy mouths. I know it's painful to hear, but that guy didn't love you, and you know something YOU HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG TO BE TREATED THAT WAY by this guy. Asking him why he doesn't say thank you in no way justifies his extreme, ungrateful and inconsiderate behaviour towards you. If he loved you, he probably would have said, oh sorry please excuse my thoughtlessness, thank you for dinner. Or maybe expressed surprised as to why you would think he wasn't thankful. This boy's a chump in a pretty package, (and unless you treat him like a God and expect nothing from him, he doesn't want to know you) but honey there's sure as hell plenty of them around, Vietnamese ones included.

As for this 'Asians' don't say thank you thing - BS to that. My Thai friends (although of course your 'friend' is Vietnamese not Thai) always say thank you to me when I buy them dinner or take them out, and if they don't say it they show their appreciation in other ways. Too many of the men in here have being hanging around low-class hookers and other ho's and have forgotten what good manners are. Orientals wrote the book on manners, turning them into the highest art form.

I know it hurts, it always does, given the circumstances would you expect it not to? What can I say? It sucks, it's unfair, but the truth is you've probably had a lucky escape. We've all been there, more than once too! Don't over analyse it, there's nothing to work out here. it just didn't work out. This wasn't the man he promised to be. Welcome to life!

[ziv77]

[.

On another note - ziv77 if you resolve the problems (family, career, financial, etc.) that you are facing in your life at home, you might find that the wisdom deep down inside rises and solves your current emotional dilemma.[/quote]

Stargaze Thanks God i dont have family, career, financial etc. problems to resolve

My problem is emotional having deep feeling to a guy, who decided to act the way he did,I cant turn the switch from hot to cold as he did. So there is no dilemma here that I can resolve quickly. Only time will solve my emotional present status.

We are fast approaching our 5th anniversary together. We have had rough times and good times. He is a great help to me and I try to do the same for him.
You should keep trying. It can happen. It does happen.

Edith I Love You.

How much?

(I love you too.)

Long time - no pak wan!

I call himтАж after I find out he has a 2nd cell phone #he is with another farang in a hotel for money he tells me its his decision to be with this guy and hangs up on me, 3 days later he sends me this message:


dear my old love,
How are you ? i wirte this e-mail, just wonder how you are ..i have enough bad time,i think you do too. i dont need you to forgived me , i not ask you to come back, all it up to you .everything i do , i think it before, so i know this ,..time will tell the true . all i said now will be another liar..dont have to believe ...
anyway if you want to call me sometimes will be nice of you , but you wont i understand..am hurt too...but will try to be ok, i stil not changed ... i still love you ,and i do all my heart..wait and see ...nothing can tell now...
love you



my response:

To many things break and broken inside me, nothing I can do, nothing you can do....... so we say goodbye and remember the experience we share in our life together. Just remember in your life as u get older that we become like our mother and fathers and copy many of the same things they did........ You donтАЩt need to write me back because nothing more to say. I wish you happiness in your life.

C-U


His response:

I will but i dont care if u will answer me back , i will continure where i am at , i will do what our dream is..to send u pic of our new business..ideas
i will send u like this till one day that u understand me ...i feel that same ...but just some reson i cant tell u in my mind , but wait till am ok to tell u then i will...
all of thing i do , just becoz i love u ...and i will forever ..

[PeterUK]

How much?

(I love you too.)

I think, Oogleman, that Edith might be coyly suggesting that you prove your love in the time-honoured way - by setting up a monthly stipend in her name. Reminds me of the story of the famous American lawyer who did a favour for a female client. When she gushed, 'Oh, how can I ever repay you?', he gave her a steely look and said, 'Madam, since the Phoenicians invented money there's only ever been one answer to that question.'

[Dodger]

I just make pretend.

If he doesn't want to make love that night...I make pretend with someone else.

Long time - no pak wan!

It certainly must be!

[American Teacher-old]

Enough of the "they" and "we" statements. Here is an all-genuine "my" and "me" addition to this very interesting thread...

As many of you know, I have been with my boyfriend (husband) for six years now, and we are on the cusp of celebrating our 2nd year Wedding Anniversary next month. As with all relationships, ours has been one of intense romance, equal-respect, honesty, white lies, difficult times, happy times, funny times, sad times -- yet through it all -- despite the cultural snafus, it is stronger than ever! During these years, I have learned many things about him -- and myself, two of which directly apply to the meat of this thread...

"Thank You":

In my experience, this is indeed a word that Thai's rarely use naturally. As many have stated before, it is a western courtesy that some have learned -- especially the well-educated, but none the less, it has been learned for the benefit of the foreigner. With my husband, there was always gratitude in any gifts I gave him -- but it was shown through more Thai-like ways, such as a deep gasp (when opening a gift), a quick sniff (we all know about this), or just an incredibly wonderful facial expression filled with happiness (which incidentally I like the best). After a while though, I did help him to understand that the verbal gesture of a simple "thank you" was viewed immensly positive by westerners. This lesson was one of many I continue to teach him so that he might better become a more worldly and culturally diverse citizen of the world. He in turn does the same for me with Thai taboos and the like.

"I Love You":

In my experience, this one is the tougher of the two. Again, I don't believe saying this phrase is a natural occurence in Thai culture -- at least not to the extent that I (as an American) wish, and even expect to hear it. With my husband, this continues to be difficult for me culturally because I am one of those sappy 'ol Yanks who says the phrase several times a day to him. This is hard when each time I still wait for the return chorus and alas, all I am left with is a sweet smile and a brisk sniff! I remind myself however, that I know with every fiber of my being that he loves me... He shows me daily by the way he treats me, the gifts he gives me, and the mere fact that we share our lives together (all aspects intimate and otherwise). Still, sometimes, I need to hear it. On these occasions, I push him for it by asking him..."Do you love me?" I know it's silly and I know I sound like a love-sick teenager, but hell, it's how I feel. Anyhow, 70 percent of the time he will respond with "You know Dat, Tee-lak," and often, this is enough to satisfy me. Then, 10 percent of the time he will get short with me for asking so many times and eventually just stare me down until I give it up. The remaining 30 percent of the time, he gives in and returns the chorus. Then, there is the oh-so-rare times when he (unprompted at all) will lean over and kiss me softly, then whisper, "Tee-Lak, I love you so much!" These times are the best and the ones I put away in the back of my memory to see me through until the next. Complicated -- indeed. Worth it? YOU BET!

So, there's a little of me. It's been a long time since I have opened up on this board and I am ready for the hail storm of nastiness. However, hopefully this information will be helpful to some, and maybe even inspire others to look beyond the superficial surface of the Pattaya nightlife.

Fondly,
Chris

www.niddysnook.com (http://www.niddysnook.com)
** Home of Pattaya's Tastiest Cheeseburger! **

[Smiles]

In the light of being a long-timer with my guy (only!) for nearly 7 years now, I can agree with, and relate to, every single small anecdote which Chris relates above in terms of both the "thank you's" and the "I love you's". It's just like that ... so much so it's uncanny (perhaps we are sharing boyfriends).

In long term Thai/Farang relationships, Thai learns from westerner .... westerner learns from Thai: It just comes naturaly, being just one more way in which each helps to maintain the relationship.

In shorter term, less committed partnerships, the dynamic of "taking care" of the bond (by 'learning') is not so dramatic, and the cultural differences will always be more striking, and possibily more worrying . . . as in the case of not getting your culturally-expected "thank you's", or your "sorry's", or your "I love you's" up front and on time, and with roses.

Cheers ....

So, there's a little of me. It's been a long time since I have opened up on this board and I am ready for the hail storm of nastiness.

You won't have to wait long Chris, you can be sure that LMTU & his gang are at this very moment trying to work out how to spell words of more than three letters so they can slag you off. :cherry:

[Captain Swing]

I am not disputing anyone's observations, but I am curious why Thai children seem to invariably say " Kob Khun Khrap", at least in my limited experience? When I have given my BF's young relatives small gifts when visiting his village, they always "wai" me (usually holding the candy or whatever between their palms), and thank me. Is it that they have been coached to thank the farang (unlikely), or is this something that children must do, but not adults? Just wondering.

I am not disputing anyone's observations, but I am curious why Thai children seem to invariably say " Kob Khun Khrap", at least in my limited experience? When I have given my BF's young relatives small gifts when visiting his village, they always "wai" me (usually holding the candy or whatever between their palms), and thank me. Is it that they have been coached to thank the farang (unlikely), or is this something that children must do, but not adults? Just wondering.
I think thank you is used, but in different ways and times than farangs expect.

[quote="Captain Swing"]I am not disputing anyone's observations, but I am curious why Thai children seem to invariably say " Kob Khun Khrap", at least in my limited experience? When I have given my BF's young relatives small gifts when visiting his village, they always "wai" me (usually holding the candy or whatever between their palms), and thank me. Is it that they have been coached to thank the farang (unlikely), or is this something that children must do, but not adults? quote]

You will find that Thai children do this as a mark of respect to their elders, Thai or Farang.
They tend to stop doing it as frequently when they get to their mid-teens and the more that they mix with Farangs the less the Wai is used as a form of thank you.

The difference between Thai culture and Farang culture is that Farangs expect to be thanked in words for everything whereas Thais can accept a slight nod of the head as a gesture of thanks.

This expectation of a verbal thank you everytime and taking umbrage when those thanks are not forthcoming are probably the cause of more misunderstanding between Farang & Thai than anything else.

Quite frankly if you expect to be thanked for every little gesture you will be dissapointed. Where you are giving to someone who is poorer or considered of a lower status than yourself it is considered by the person receiving the gift as a gesture of sharing your 'wealth' and no words of thanks are needed. If you are unable to give without wanting an expression of thanks then stop giving, give from the heart not to boost your ego.

(The final paragraph is not aimed at you Captain Swing but as a general comment)

That's a nice sentiment. You see, we really can learn something from Thai culture.

A huge smile is a nice way to say thank you

[Captain Swing]

King Kong wrote:

[You will find that Thai children do this as a mark of respect to their elders, Thai or Farang.
They tend to stop doing it as frequently when they get to their mid-teens and the more that they mix with Farangs the less the Wai is used as a form of thank you.]

Thank you , King Kong. That's pretty much what I thought the most likely explanation was.

[Mi Cow Chai-old]

I think it was after about four years that I first heard my bf say I love you. I use to say to him, "I know you don't like me to say it but I love you." Now after 13 years it comes naturaly to both of us. Same with "thank you" . I agree that those words are not part of Thai Culture.

we are on the cusp of celebrating our 2nd year Wedding Anniversary next monthI'd have thought that someone posing (oops, posting) as a teacher would know that the word "cusp" derives from astrology, and means the boundary between two "star signs". To be born "on the cusp" means to be born eg. as Capricorn is declining and Aquarius ascending. It does not mean "on the brink of" or, indeed, "we are about to". Leave those sorts of solecisms to ignorant journalists, politicians, lifestyle gurus and other grammatical low lifes

On the other hand, he is an American

[SteveSF-old]

Cusp: a point of transition (as from one astrological sign to another or one historical period to the next) : TURNING POINT; also : EDGE, VERGE <on the cusp of stardom>. The definition from Websters online dictionary. Another great American invention!

Yeah, Americans are terrible people.

[Smiles]

" ... we are on the cusp of celebrating our 2nd year Wedding Anniversary next month... "" ... I'd have thought that someone posing (oops, posting) as a teacher would know that the word "cusp" derives from astrology, and means the boundary between two "star signs". To be born "on the cusp" means to be born eg. as Capricorn is declining and Aquarius ascending. It does not mean "on the brink of" or, indeed, "we are about to". Leave those sorts of solecisms to ignorant journalists, politicians, lifestyle gurus and other grammatical low lifes
On the other hand, he is an American ... "
Being on the "cusp" is almost always used ~ in everyday modern language ~ as an anology regarding "something" being on the edge of "something" else.
Thus ~ as in all other anaologies ~ it can be used quite correctly in less-than-original applications (in this case, not necessarily astrological . . . but about teeth, cardiac valves, or love affairs).


Main Entry: cusp
Pronunciation: 'kusp'
Function: noun
1 : a point on the grinding surface of a tooth
2 : a fold or flap of a cardiac valve тАФcus┬╖pal /'k&s-p&l/ adjective

You know that M. Homintern, and you are thus ~ in this case at least ~ being a complete pain in the ass, rather than the great disseminator of knowledge which you normally are.

Shame sir! And cheers ...

we are on the cusp of celebrating our 2nd year Wedding Anniversary next monthI'd have thought that someone posing (oops, posting) as a teacher would know that the word "cusp" derives from astrology, and means the boundary between two "star signs". To be born "on the cusp" means to be born eg. as Capricorn is declining and Aquarius ascending. It does not mean "on the brink of" or, indeed, "we are about to". Leave those sorts of solecisms to ignorant journalists, politicians, lifestyle gurus and other grammatical low lifes

On the other hand, he is an American

Grammar low lifes, surely.

[Doug]

I don't know how I came to this understanding or from whom but it was surly from my Thai experiences.

The act of giving a gift is primarily for the gratification of the giver. The joy of giving should be reward enough. I believe this to such an extent that I have, at times, said, "Thank you" to the recipient for accepting my gift. As someone mentioned, it's the gasp, the shy smile, the rush to a private space to open the wraping, etc, etc that is important to me.

As Smiles notes, "sorry" is another word most Thais do not use as westerners expect. This often comes into play when a Thai invokes " Khring jai", or saying what they think will make you happy, rather than disappointing you with the truth. Also, when they are late, or do not show up at all.

When I had been working with Thais about one month, a moved into a flat, and invited some friends to a "housewarming" party. Three Thai associates smilingly said that they would come. None of them showed. Two days later at work, I mentioned that they failed to show as they said they would. The answer was that at the time I invited them, they already had other plans. Annoyed, I said "then you lied." Their surprised response was that they had not lied, they just had not told the truth to be polite. No apologies.

Fortunately, most Thais are not yet infected with the western obsession with time. The Japanese adopted our obsession and the concomitant stress, to their detriment.

[Surfcrest]

I think itтАЩs fair to say that we westerners waste a great deal of our time worrying about what other people think of us.

I don't see that a lot with Thais and this especially applies when they are motorists or pedestrians.
They just don't seem to be as aware of their surroundings and/or concerned about other people, motorists or pedestrians.
If a Thai motorist hasn't decided which lane he / she would like, quite often they will straddle two just to block you from getting beside them. When in bumper-to-bumper traffic, they'll squeeze right up to the guy in front of them just to block access to someone trying merge in. I walked through an empty parking lot behind Hollywood Disco and had someone coming the other way walk right into me.

When it comes to saving face, many learn the hard way that the Thai face is quite fragile. To call someone a liar or a thief will push and relationship instantly beyond salvageable. To question anyone's family or upbringing is surely flirting with disaster. Loosing your temper accomplishes absolutely nothing and quite honestly makes you look foolish.

There are many things about Thai culture that we aren't going to learn right away and many of us will never know all the complexities. ItтАЩs always best to sit on your hands, try to absorb as much as possible about what is going on and then ask questions about it later. Reacting won't solve this misunderstanding, nor will it prevent the next from happening again.

Surfcrest

I've always thought poor old Surfcrest didn't have a clue about the Thais, and this post confirms that for me. One of my friends says that you can guarantee to keep a Thai boy entertained and occupied for hours - just buy him a mirror. Thais are absolutely obsessed with how they look, because how they look is in many ways what people will think of them. I, on the other hand, don't give a damn about what people think of me

you can guarantee to keep a Thai boy entertained and occupied for hours - just buy him a mirror. Thais are absolutely obsessed with how they look, because how they look is in many ways what people will think of them. I, on the other hand, don't give a damn about what people think of me

Amen to that!! Mirrors - powders of all types and thai soap operas should be banned!

[American Teacher-old]

When it comes to saving face, many learn the hard way that the Thai face is quite fragile. To call someone a liar or a thief will push and relationship instantly beyond salvageable. To question anyone's family or upbringing is surely flirting with disaster. Loosing your temper accomplishes absolutely nothing and quite honestly makes you look foolish.

There are many things about Thai culture that we aren't going to learn right away and many of us will never know all the complexities. ItтАЩs always best to sit on your hands, try to absorb as much as possible about what is going on and then ask questions about it later. Reacting won't solve this misunderstanding, nor will it prevent the next from happening again.

Surfcrest

Though I understand where you are coming from, I don't necessarily agree with the above statements. From a visitor's point of view, there may be validity to your thoughts -- but for those of us who live here and are involved in a long-term, living situation with a Thai, it is quite the opposite. There have, for example, been occasions where I have had to confront my husband on certain matters face-to-face (in private of course) - even though I knew it would cause him to "lose face" to me because he was wrong. Remember, we are in an equal partnership here -- and as important as it is for me to respect his Thai ways -- he must also respect my American ways. In some cases, this means we do it the Thai way, and in other cases not. If you are speaking purely about public situations or relations in the day-to-day world -- then you are right: we are in Thailand, we must conform to Thai values when at all possible. However, in our home, between the two of us -- there HAS to be a blend.

Secondly, I refuse to "sit on my hands" in any personal relationship I have -- whether it be a Thai, South American, African or whatever. After all, my feelings are important too, and to discount them or suppress them would in fact be supporting a one-sided relationship. There must be give and take in every intimate relationship -- there must be appreciation for both sides FROM both sides. Again, in public situations it is a horse of a different color, and Thai society dictates appropriate behavior in these instances.

Fondly,
Chris

PS -- Smiles, we will have to get together for a drink sometime and discuss our common relationship experiences. No doubt we share many other commonalities between our mates!

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it was surly from my Thai experiencesMany of us are

[Surfcrest]

Remember, we are in an equal partnership here

This is the part I have a hard time with.
What we believe, want to believe and what is isn't always the same.

Surfcrest

[American Teacher-old]

Remember, we are in an equal partnership here

This is the part I have a hard time with.
What we believe, want to believe and what is isn't always the same.

Surfcrest

Surfcrest,

I can only speak for myself and not for others. I certainly cannot force you to understand or believe my personal relationship with my husband, but I would urge you to look beyond your own stereotypes -- and perhaps beyond the more common situation in Pattaya.

I have been in MANY long-term relationships with Americans and other nationalitites. In all these cases -- including my current one, I have insisted on equal respect and equal partnership. Like in all relationships -- this doesn't necessarily mean equal financial situations or equal cultural norms, but it does mean EQUAL RESPONSIBILITY.

There is more to many relationships here in Thailand -- I believe -- than just the young money-boy/old rich farang model (though there are plenty of these too).

Fondly,
Chris

www.niddynook.com (http://www.niddynook.com)
** Home of Pattaya's Tastiest Cheeseburger **

MANY long-term relationships?

You're either very old, or your "long-term relationships" aren't very long.

MANY long-term relationships? You're either very old, or your "long-term relationships" aren't very long.Oh, I think you're forgetting that delightful comment from pete1969 (on which I still dine out) - "A year is a lifetime for a gay man, so a long-term relationship is one that lasts a year or more"

[Surfcrest]

I certainly cannot force you to understand or believe....

You know Chris I always laugh when I hear you Americans saying things like this.
Even suggesting you "cannot" leads me to believe the thought has crossed your mind:)



There is more to many relationships here in Thailand -- I believe -- than just the young money-boy/old rich farang model (though there are plenty of these too).

I'm sure you have had a great deal of experience with relationships. Clearly there is a difference between a paid relationship and mutual consent. The common denominator is that there is always a power struggle a sort of "tug-a-war" happening in any relationship including both of these. This might not be noticable in every relationship.

When we westerners say things to each other in a heated time, we tend to say things that we know we can take back later. All I'm saying is that the rules in Thailand are very different. I wouldn't advise anyone to wade into an agrument without exploring all the limits. To say things they may regret....and to wind up much like how this thread began.

Surfcrest

Cultural (sorry hawkins) differences are a mine field, the number of promising friendships I have ruined by insulting someone's car for example are incredible. I feel strongly that a Porsche is not for everyone, but just try telling a Chinese donut that, and you are guaranteed never to be spoken too again. Not even in the lift a year later.

[American Teacher-old]

When we westerners say things to each other in a heated time, we tend to say things that we know we can take back later. All I'm saying is that the rules in Thailand are very different. I wouldn't advise anyone to wade into an agrument without exploring all the limits. To say things they may regret....and to wind up much like how this thread began.

Surfcrest

This makes me laugh. If only you could be a fly on the wall for some of our arguments! Broad brushed statements just plain and simply can't apply for all!

Fondly,
Chris

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[American Teacher-old]

MANY long-term relationships?

You're either very old, or your "long-term relationships" aren't very long.

BG --

Everything is relative in life. A long time to an 18 year old is quite different than a long time to an 80 year old. I would venture to guess that you fall into the category closer to the latter.

For me, I have had several relationships that have lasted longer than three years. This to me is long-term. My current relationship is entering its seventh year -- and that is quite significant for me and my relative situtation.

Clear? Good.

Fondly,
Chris

www.niddysnook.com (http://www.niddysnook.com)

... boygeenyus! One of your fellow countrymen thinks you are closer to 80 than 18. Those hamburgers must have softened his brain :cherry:

[dave_tf-old]

Yes...somebody famous (Colonel Sanders perhaps?) once said, "It is more blessed to give than to recieve." There is some truth in the idea that the giver is the more rewarded in a Thai context. Karma, and all that. The monks don't wai the villagers for the early morning alms offering, after all. Yes, that's an extreme example, but at least a window into the cultrual context.

Sad that you would let this issue dash hopes for a relationship. But not everybody is cut out for crossing the great divide.

That's not to say that those who are capable of this broadmindedness must give up all the cultural comforts of home. Given time and communication, we all find a way to get some of our reward in the here and now. That's why we're not monks.

I'm a LOT closer to 18 than 80, thanks very much!

So, we're down from "many" to "several" now. That sounds a bit better. Thank you for not being such an exaggerating drama queen in the future.

[ziv77]

Sad that you would let this issue dash hopes for a relationship. But not everybody is cut out for crossing the great divide.

That's not to say that those who are capable of this broadmindedness must give up all the cultural comforts of home. Given time and communication, we all find a way to get some of our reward in the here and now. That's why we're not monks.



The only "crime" made by me was merely a remark that was used to j.... He used it as pretext to unwind our web relationship. The guy did not even bother to explain himself to me, and started to behave in a way uncalled for. If someone has his moment and wants to break relations, there is a way to do it, no matter from which culture you stem. Unfortunately, in my case this was not done[/b]

[ziv77]

[.When we westerners say things to each other in a heated time, we tend to say things that we know we can take back later. All I'm saying is that the rules in Thailand are very different. I wouldn't advise anyone to wade into an agrument without exploring all the limits. To say things they may regret....and to wind up much like how this thread began.

Surfcrest[/quote]


Surfcrest

My winding up was not because of what i said. What i said is not an insult at all. The guy involved hooked up to my saying as a pretext to break our short relation. I was dealing here with a very inteligent guy, with western education, holding an important position in his country, and not a guy from Isan or any up north farm in Thailand. There is a big difference.
What amazed me most, where his love messages all along, and when we meet everything exploded, this not to mention, that his behaviour turned 180 degrees, which left me very hurt.
How can anyone love someone, and because of a remark turn the switch off. it has nothing to do with my remark at all. There are ways and means between grown ups to solve difference if exit, but in my case there was not attempt, not even to sit and discuss, life went on as usual on the other side, runing to pubs and bars by himself until late at night and having a good time .How can you say to someone few times a day that you love him, by email messages, sending sms phone calls, and in a split of a second change completely.
This is my big question. perhapes adopt another way, and dont believe to lies being told to you, or alternatively, the guy has a mental problem and does not know basics in human behaviour

[Dodger]

ziv77,

It sounds like this guy has caused you more aggravation than he's worth. You have a choice; Keep on trying to figure out why he's an asshole - or find another Thai boy who will appreciate someone who is sincere...as you seem to be.

One key advantage that a farang has in LOS, is that he can have just about any guy he wants...none are free.

Life is too short for any of us to spend our days being depressed and lonely. That's why God gave Thailand to us gay guys.

Go get laid and fall in love again. Hell, it's easy...just love them all.

mai pen rai

[ziv77]

ziv77,

It sounds like this guy has caused you more aggravation than he's worth. You have a choice; Keep on trying to figure out why he's an asshole - or find another Thai boy who will appreciate someone who is sincere...as you seem to be.

One key advantage that a farang has in LOS, is that he can have just about any guy he wants...none are free.

Life is too short for any of us to spend our days being depressed and lonely. That's why God gave Thailand to us gay guys.

Go get laid and fall in love again. Hell, it's easy...just love them all.

mai pen rai


Dodger Many thanks for your kind words. I am not in Thailand, I am 10,000 km away, and we dont have Thai boys here (unfortunately). I fell hard for this guy and time will do its course . I am away from Bangkok only 10 days when the whole thing started. This is what I found as a farwell from J

"Dont be angry and dont feel sad Arie. I love you very
much. I regret that we could not live together much
longer. I had wonderful time being with you. WIll
never forget it.

Love you
j...n

[ziv77]

By the way Dodger, he is not Thai, he is Vietnamese from Ho Chi Mina City (Saigon)

How can anyone love someone, and because of a remark turn the switch off. It has nothing to do with my remark at all.

Someone I was seeing, and becoming serious about--And whose name I can't remember--became enraged and stomped off: "finito!" because, on our way to the disco, I said I didn't like a certain female singer.... Okay; I may have said, "She sounds like a turpentined cat, in heat, with vibrato where her brains should be!"
Men are like streetcars; another one came along a few hours later and stayed several years.
By the way: The singer made one recording.

Eighteen months ago, on my second visit to Pattaya, I offed a boy twice a week simply because I enjoyed his company. He was unusually intelligent and charismatic. Instead of taking him to my room for sex, I took him to a Karaoke bar of his choosing. After a couple of hours I gave him about 700 or 800 baht and sent him home for the night. He sang well and really enjoyed these visits as I did, although I never sang, just listened or chatted with him. On the fourth trip, he persuaded me to select a song to sing. Being opera trained, I chose a Tom Jones song. He applauded politely and commented, "You are a power singer." I did not respond. However, I never sang for him again and took him off again only once, not for Karaoke but for sex. Two weeks later he left to start studying for a career in acting at a university in Issan.
Although he seemed aware of it, he never broached the subject of my change towards him.
For those chaffing at the bit to tell me what an asshole I was, save it. You'd be preaching to the converted. But I was never so uncomfortable with it as I would have been had I done the same thing to a compatriot. Maybe I had eaten too much Tom Yum.
Incidentally, the lack of the use of the term, "Thank You," is not a pan-Asian practise. During the three years I lived in Taiwan, the most common expression I heard used between Taiwanese was Hse hse ni or Hse hse go e, meaning thank you or thank you one and all, the latter being often heard by people addressing a crowd or the TV audience. Also, salamaad seems to be common among Pinoy.

[dave_tf-old]

Dear Edith. Everybody is a critic.

The only "crime" made by me was merely a remark that was used to j.... He used it as pretext to unwind our web relationship. The guy did not even bother to explain himself to me, and started to behave in a way uncalled for. If someone has his moment and wants to break relations, there is a way to do it, no matter from which culture you stem. Unfortunately, in my case this was not done[/b]

Oh snap out of it! Who knows why he did what he did. Perhaps you smelled, perhaps you had bad breath, perhaps your three-incher was a little wee for him, perhaps you looked uglier, older and fatter in person than you did in your photographs, perhaps he was put off by your mannerisms, perhaps you bored him to death, perhaps he was unimpressed by your bedroom skills, perhaps he felt that you were a lousy conversationalist and your intellect didn't match up to his, perhaps you weren't as wealthy as he thought you were... These things don't translate well over the Internet. You fell in love with a chat icon with a honey tongue who obviously didn't feel the same way about you after you met, or never did.

What upsets you more - the fact that you were rejected or that you were rejected by an educated, sophisticated, financially independent guy, a theme that you have repeated ad nauseam? Underneath that heavy cloak of insecurity, you obviously have a very high opinion of yourself. Did you ever stop to think that a guy with his background might have had high expectations of you, just as you did of him, but those expectations didn't materialise on his side?

What kind of an invertebrate goes on and on over a failed Internet romance? If your effete, whinging personality seeps through to us over this anonymous virtual space, what more to an intelligent, worldly man who meets you in the flesh? You're not a relative of pete1969 by any chance, are you? You should be grateful that the charade wasn't prolonged and you were able to cut your losses early. Pete the Pansy Patong Potato never had the chance. Your Internet paramour gave you both a way out with that song and dance over the thank you thing. Take it and move on, slow as it may be - it's time to reunite with your fellow worms in your cyber hole.

[ziv77]

Why are you so negative in your writing, you whole article is full with venom. yes I fell in love with a guy and I am not ashamed of it. If you would have understood what I was trying to say in my bad English may be your thread would have looked other. By the same token, I only wanted to know why that's all, it could have been all the reasons mentioned in your thread. I expected from an intelligent guy to come and say why. After AL I came for him for the other side of the continent, the least to do was to say way. The rest does not matter.

Tonight I received I message from a guy in Germany, that he did to him the same, and that was in May of this year. All of that while flirting with me. I am getting to a conclusion that he likes to play with people like a com on whore. I would respect more a street whore then him.
Nothing to do with rejection or insecurity. I don't like to be taken as a sucker Miss Thorpe.
And mind you, there are much more beautiful boys in Thailand. The world did not start with him and will not end. I will tell you more, in my own way, I came across messages that he sent to few people - with whole of them he wants to meet. All of that before wet met!!! Cap ice.
I would expect a different attitude from a guy with his back round but made a mistake, a whore will always remain a whore

[ziv77]

I am quoting to you his last message left for me in Bangkok

"
Dont be angry and dont feel sad Arie. I love you very
much. I regret that we could not live together much
longer. I had wonderful time being with you. WIll
never forget it.

Love you

Now what would you say to that, is your theory correct, may be yes may be no.
I would suggest to you before smearing your ideas try to understand things in a negative objective way
Thaks[/b]

Miss sybil Thorp
Why are you so negative in your writing, you whole article is full with venom.

Some people love to harm your "hurt", Arie. This is the wold on SF. But also a lot off people go understand !

I hope you get over this sad story soon and forget, difficult for you but your only way out !

[ziv77]

[Some people love to harm your "hurt", Arie. This is the wold on SF. But also a lot off people go understand !

I hope you get over this sad story soon and forget, difficult for you but your only way out ![/quote]

Dear Baziel

I could not care less what he writes, its a free web.

The Interesting part here is that from day to day I discover new things about the dark side of J...n, and its more dark then light. I am getting mail from various people who read my thread and who know him. Its time that someone takes off his mask from his face, and reveal his true personality.
Take care
Arie

[American Teacher-old]

[Some people love to harm your "hurt", Arie. This is the wold on SF. But also a lot off people go understand !

I hope you get over this sad story soon and forget, difficult for you but your only way out !

Dear Baziel

I could not care less what he writes, its a free web.

The Interesting part here is that from day to day I discover new things about the dark side of J...n, and its more dark then light. I am getting mail from various people who read my thread and who know him. Its time that someone takes off his mask from his face, and reveal his true personality.
Take care
Arie
[/quote]

I too would be interested in seeing this happen. As they say, payback can be hell.

Fondly,
Chris

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