How long before Go-Go Bars share the Fate of the Dinosaurs?

[fountainhall]

A contentious headline, to be sure, but it is intended as a follow-on to the threads about gay Bangkok and Pattaya in the 1980s and beyond, one that may also be of interest to those considering retiring here in the next 10 тАУ 20 years.

Most posters in the earlier threads agreed that a lot has changed in the commercial gay nightlife establishments, including the disappearance of much of the fun of the early days. Things have never been quite the same since the governmentтАЩs social order campaign in 2001. The advent of social networking sites is also having an effect. One poster recently noted on another board that during a three-week visit to Pattaya he had spent only 3 nights in bars. His evening entertainment had been mostly arranged via the internet.

I wonder how far these changes will go? In the next few years, will we see further radical changes that might end up with most of the bars (gay and straight) and the more obviously public forms of sex and prostitution disappear?

I raise this merely as a topic for discussion. One writer whose books on Asia have fascinated me is the American Alex Kerr. A resident of Bangkok for close to two decades, he had spent most of his earlier life living in Japan. Written in Japanese, his first book about how Japan is losing its traditional culture and customs тАЬLost JapanтАЭ won that countryтАЩs highest literary award. He remains the only foreigner to have attained that distinction.

One of his latest books is тАЬBangkok FoundтАЭ. This is no tourist guide. Rather it is a book for those who live here, or regular visitors who want to learn more about Thai culture in all its many forms after they have тАШdoneтАЩ the temples and enjoyed the nightlife. Openly gay, Kerr clearly has a very wide circle of Thai friends and he bases his comments on extensive research and interviews over many years. Here are some excerpts from the section dealing with nightlife.


For whatever reason, Bangkok unquestionably has the most extensive and international gay scene in all of Asia . . . A young kiwi friend of mine, on his first visit to a gay disco in Silom Soi 2, took one look at the crowds of men, and could barely contain himself. тАЬWhen I die, I want to come here!тАЭ he said . . .

Yet despite the festival atmosphere in Silom, Thai society is hardly the open sexual paradise that many foreigners imagine . . . Young ladies of good families are educated to be sexually quite conservative. Gays usually do not come out to their parents, and many stay permanently in the closet for fear of losing their jobs.

In fact thereтАЩs a strong streak of puritanism running through Thai society. Austere Chinese morality, which frowns on sensual indulgence, plays a role, due to the large share of BangkokтАЩs population with Chinese roots. You can also see vestiges of colonial Western values from the 19th century, which Thailand took to heart in the process of modernisation . . . You wonтАЩt find in Bangkok the open flaunting of sex that you find in Japan, such as shops selling sexual paraphernalia, or newspapers sporting pages of photos of adult video stars, which blue-suited salarymen peruse in the train on their way home from work . . .

Ironically, openness to foreigners works against Bangkok in the eyes of the world. Prostitution is just as large a business in Japan as it is in Thailand, maybe even larger, but it bothers foreign visitors and journalists much less, if at all . . . This is because most of the sex is not accessible to foreigners; they just donтАЩt see it [and in any case are generally not welcome in the commercial establishments] . . .

I have what I call тАЬthe Weimar Republic theoryтАЭ of Bangkok. As dramatised in the movie тАШCabaretтАЩ, there was a brief moment of sinful freedom in Berlin during the Weimar Republic (1919 to 1933). It was the era of Kurt WeillтАЩs bittersweet music and Christopher IsherwoodтАЩs novels and stories By the mid-1930s the Nazis had stamped it out, and eventually all that remained was a legend of тАЬBerlin in the 20s.тАЭ Those who experienced it spent the rest of their lives telling others of the wild days that were now gone forever.

In time, the more outrageous forms that prostitution takes in Bangkok (sex shows, go-go bars with half-naked boys or girls) will disappear. For those things, Bangkok stands far out on the scale of what most cities in the world see as acceptable. I donтАЩt believe it will last. Slowly but surely we are seeing a clampdown, and itтАЩs a matter of time before the тАЬsinfulтАЭ Bangkok we see today fades away into legend, just as 1920s Berlin did.
Kerr goes on to highlight the clash of generations тАУ the ultra conservative elders and the desire by the young for greater freedom. But an easing of sexual mores does not mean that the younger generation approves of the open displays of commercial sex in Bangkok. Almost exclusively, the vast majority of younger men prefer to meet in the relative privacy of discos, drinking clubs or behind the walls of gay saunas, for example.

I tend to agree with Kerr. How long it will take, I have no idea. Probably many more years. Commercial sex will continue to be available, certainly as long as poverty exists in the countryside and Thais from all strata of society seek it out. Eventually, though, will establishments catering largely to foreigners become just a memory?

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l597/fountainhall/Bangkok_Found_Cover1.jpg (http://s1125.photobucket.com/user/fountainhall/media/Bangkok_Found_Cover1.jpg.html)

Bangkok Found тАУ published by River Books 2010

[francois]

Think positive, the Dinosaurs were around for 100 million years so maybe the demise of the Go-Go Bars is premature?

[joe552]

I tend to think that those of us now in our 50s might still be visiting for another 10 or 20 years will keep the sex for sale trade alive for some time to come.

[joe552]

And then there's NIrish guy - so the boys can relax for a while yet

[Jellybean]

Think positive, the Dinosaurs were around for 100 million years so maybe the demise of the Go-Go Bars is premature?
The above point made by Fran├зois also occurred to me after reading the title of this topic.

And then there's NIrish guy - so the boys can relax for a while yet
I particularly liked the above comment by Joe552, it did make me laugh тАж sorry NIrish!

But Alex KerrтАЩs predictions seem unduly pessimistic and his comparison with Berlin in the 1920s, before the Nazi rise to power, probably doesnтАЩt stand up to detailed scrutiny. It sounds to me like a headline grabber more than a serious comment.

In the previous interesting topic about Bangkok in the 80s, created by fountainhall, shows that nothing remains the same forever, change happens. ItтАЩs as certain as death and taxes. It appears to me that there is a greater choice of places to meet тАШthe boy of your choiceтАЩ today than there was in the 80s. One only needs to look at the plethora of Internet dating sites and other sites such as PlanetRomeo and Grindr where you can find a money boy ready and willing to take care of your needs for a price.

I donтАЩt possess a crystal ball and therefore cannot predict the future, but my gut feeling is that the go-go bars, in some shape or form, are going to be with us for many years to come and certainly long enough to satisfy my needs. After all, they donтАЩt refer to prostitution as тАШthe oldest professionтАЩ for nothing and reports of the early demise of go-go bars are, to coin a phrase, probably greatly exaggerated, but a great subject for discussion nonetheless.

[Marsilius]

I tend to think that those of us now in our 50s might still be visiting for another 10 or 20 years will keep the sex for sale trade alive for some time to come.

Not just "those of us now in our 50s"... Guys currently in their 20s, 30s and 40s will all reach a stage (maybe in their 50s?) where, if unattached and lonely or if interested only in much younger guys, they will enter and thus perpetuate the market for money boys.

I cannot see prostitution - whether overt or covert - ever coming to an end as long as the demand is constantly reinforced by those entering the lonely decades and replacing those leaving it at the other end when they die. In fact, increased longevity and the resultant growing numbers of guys living through their 70s, 80s and even beyond, may well mean that demand for paid-for sex is currently growing.

Of course, as the original quoted piece suggests, Thai governments (as in 2001) or changes to Thai social mores may eventually restrict the supply of willing young men entering the sex trade, but I suspect that that will be a very slow process.

[joe552]

Well as I said, NIrish guy who is only 24, has many more years of keeping the boys of Thailand in paid employment.

I agree with you Marsilius - the trade won't go away, but technology and government interference may change how we access that trade. Personally, I'd rather see a boy in his undies in a bar than rely on a photo on Romeo.

[Manforallseasons]

Thailand's commercial gay sex scene has been slowly dying for years but like every city prostitution will continue in the parks, by the palace, train stations etc.

[joe552]

And Christian will continue to keep us informed about the activities in the parks.

[neddy3]

Personally, I'd rather see a boy in his undies in a bar than rely on a photo on Romeo.

Could not agree with you more, Joe. :ymhug:

I'm hoping there are years of life left in the go-go bars.

[anonone]

Well as I said, NIrish guy who is only 24, has many more years of keeping the boys of Thailand in paid employment.



=))

[Nirish guy]

Well as I said, NIrish guy who is only 24, has many more years of keeping the boys of Thailand in paid employment.



=))


Ha ha oh if only that were true Joe, hell I'd settle for those same numbers just turned back to back even and be happy with that !! ( 45 actually just for the record).

And to add to the discussion I actually haven't off'd one single guy from any go go bar this entire trip ( and I can't remember the last time I did hardly)!

I've off'd a few guys in Sunee bars but that was only more as of courtesy thing to the owners and to boy to keep everyone happy as I was already talking online to all the various guys anyway. The vast majority of my hook ups this trip have been through mainly grindr, followed by Gay Romeo, Jack'd, Gaydar, line and what's app ( from old contacts seeing I'm here and getting in touch again) plus a few other lesser used apps, then there are some randoms hook ups from guys in bars, plus at the beach, a few Thai dancers from cabaret shows, my personal same as always massage guy and a few guys at sansuk suana plus a few friends of friends on and after us all being out on a night out perhaps with their friends they then contact me about an hour after their friend leaves to say "can I cum over" plus last night one of my regular bar guys who's staying long time with his customer in Mosaik who had to out to "see his friend" and no doubt a few more avenues I can't recall now.

In low season it really is a buyers market here and every two hours or so I switch my phone on to find maybe 6 new messages ( at least) each time and that's fairly consistent right throughout my trip I find and of course as I'm all about helping the poor I feel it's my Christian duty to nail as many of the guys who contact me as is physically possible and that my wallet will allow ( well the cute ones anyway) and thankfully both regions are still holding out ok - but just about mind :-)

[lego]

I tend to agree with Kerr.
Count me in. Like him, I think there will always be prostitution in Thailand, just like everywhere else on this planet. But I also think that the face of prostitution will change, to be more in line with what's deemed "acceptable". The military rule might speed up that process somewhat, but as you've pointed out, the writing was already on the wall.

[catawampuscat]

It surprising that boy Gogo bars are newly opening (reopening) in the Boyztown area on Pattayland Soi 1.
New Lucky Seven and Dream Boys this month. They've been full of boys with some customers, when I've stopped by.
The old City Boys in Sunee plaza scheduled to reopen within a month.

The boy bar has certainly changed, but for those who like to see boys alive and in the flesh, it's an easy fun option.
I've used the internet sites and reconnected with boys I knew before. I like the bars and am willing to
put up with barflies, loud music,obnoxious mamasans and cigarette smoking, if they have the boys that rock my world.

[LoveThailand]

I think go-go bars in Bangkok will remain a big draw to the increasing numbers of Chinese of both sexes for the foreseeable future. Maybe they'll save them? Not that I appreciate the company of screaming middle aged Chinese matrons :)
But they do come for the shows and bars seem to depend on their drink bills more and more it seems...

[joe552]

You raise an interesting point, LoveThailand - if the bars cater more and more to women, would the attraction still be there? For me, I think not.

[a447]

I believe the gogo bars are here to stay.

Some observations from the OP's post:


Young ladies of good families are educated to be sexually quite conservative. Gays usually do not come out to their parents, and many stay permanently in the closet for fear of losing their jobs.

This is true of most countries. It's nothing new.


but it bothers foreign visitors and journalists much less, if at all . . . This is because most of the sex is not accessible to foreigners; they just donтАЩt see it [and in any case are generally not welcome in the commercial establishments] . . .

Most of the venues are not really accessible to local Thais, either, as they wouldn't know they exist. And most foreigners never see anything outside of Soi Twilight; they know nothing about Thai for Thai establishments. The full-on gay scene in Bangkok seems to be restricted to 2 sois- Soi Twilight and the small soi down past the Tawan bar. It's not as if every area of Bangkok has such areas.


But an easing of sexual mores does not mean that the younger generation approves of the open displays of commercial sex in Bangkok.

No, but they have been tolerating them since the 70's. Why should this change?


Eventually, though, will establishments catering largely to foreigners become just a memory?

I don't think so. The burgeoning Chinese market - there are literally millions of them willing to pay the exhorbitant drink prices - will ensure the bars survive.


I tend to think that those of us now in our 50s might still be visiting for another 10 or 20 years will keep the sex for sale trade alive for some time to come.

As has already been pointed out, there are generation coming up behind us to take our place.

[christianpfc]

Prostitution will remain, no doubt.

For Bangkok gogo bars, I think it's more a case of overpricing (and not military rule or better job opportunies elsewhere), I don't recall going to any Soi Twilight gogo bar this year (but Super A in Soi 6, with a friend who came for holiday), but have been to many bars in Pattaya.

I think most of the money customers pay in Bangkok gogo bars goes to landlords and bribes and over-staffing (hordes of waiters and mamasans and some touts), and only a small part goes to the boys. You are paying for someone's third wife's second car! (To be fair, I don't pay anything, I just walk through the soi once or twice per week and ogle and thank god that I don't have to pay those prices because there is Pattaya and gay saunas and discos and saranrom.)

Finding new sexual partners is now almost completely real-life for me, I usually don't even log into gayromeo or grindr when I am in Pattaya (because I know enough boys there, and even worse they know I am in town), and in Bangkok real life encounters far outnumber online encounters.

[fountainhall]

I think most of the money customers pay in Bangkok gogo bars goes to landlords and bribes and over-staffing
The mamasan at one of the beer bars in Soi Twilight told me some time ago that the 'fees' to the bib for an inside go-go bar then stood at Bt. 160,000 per month. For the beer bars it was, I think, Bt. 40,000 per month. One obvious question then arises. If the military government is serious in clamping down on corruption, one of its stated aims, what will be the effect on the above 'fees''? One scenario could be that bars will have less overheads and prices might come down. New players might even enter the scene. Another scenario is that the go-go bars are eventually closed since they are effectively places that encourage prostitution. Such encouragement may not in itself be illegal (frankly, I do not know) but prostitution here definitely is. Also bars that provide "rooms upstairs" are definitely acting illegally under The Entertainment Places Act.

[Oliver]

It's simple; too many bars, too few falangs in Pattaya.
When I first came in the 90s, there were about fourteen gogo bars. Most of them were in the Boyztown area and most (but not all) were busy. Nowadays, a dwindling supply of ageing falangs are supporting a huge number of bars- that is when they can tear themselves away from Gay Romeo.
Furthermore, a sizeable number of my generation are now in relationships. The last place my boyfriend wants to go in the evening is a gogo bar.

[joe552]

But Oliver, what about the influx of Asian women who may keep the bars open?

[LoveThailand]

It's simple; too many bars, too few falangs in Pattaya.
When I first came in the 90s, there were about fourteen gogo bars. Most of them were in the Boyztown area and most (but not all) were busy. Nowadays, a dwindling supply of ageing falangs are supporting a huge number of bars- that is when they can tear themselves away from Gay Romeo.
Furthermore, a sizeable number of my generation are now in relationships. The last place my boyfriend wants to go in the evening is a gogo bar.

It was about 25 years ago and, as mentioned many times before, the bars were a necessity then given that GR, Grindr etc were not available. The scene does not rely on a certain generation - does it? People age all the time and go through life cycle :)

It is true that now there are so many ways to hook up apart from bars - the internet, the street, what have you. But I for one - enjoy the bars atmosphere - even if I do not off any man and will be sorry to see them go.

[fountainhall]

The burgeoning Chinese market - there are literally millions of them willing to pay the exhorbitant drink prices - will ensure the bars survive.
That market is certainly going to mushroom and there will be a lot of gay guys arriving as a result. But will they do more than pay for drinks, I wonder? Two unattached gay friends from Kunming visited Bangkok a few months back. I took them to Soi 4 which they really enjoyed. One wanted to have a look at Soi Twilight (Duangthawee). Initially they did not want to go inside a go-go bar and so we just had a drink at a beer bar. Eventually one decided to pop into a go-go bar on his own. He had a drink, a smoke and came out 15 minutes later. He had no interest in offing a boy. That seemed to fit a pattern - that many Asians seem to be more reticent about offs than westerners

I see a lot of Asians whenever I am in Soi Twilight. But I rarely see them taking guys off. If that is the pattern - a drink or two, watch the show and no offs - is perhaps it one reason why drinks prices have risen so much? And can those bars continue in existence without a reasonable revenue from offs? More importantly, will the boys continue working there if they are not making money from offs?

[orson]

with the absence of nudity in the shows in bangkok, i wonder if the touchy feely bars like nature boys / golden cock have toned down as well?

[fountainhall]

This post is long! But most was written by shamelessmack under his handle macaroni21 on gaythailand.com. I repeat it here because during the discussion on go-go bars, there have been several comments about the past and present, but little suggestion about how they might be made more attractive to patrons of all nationalities.

3 1/2 years ago there was a similar thread on gaythailand.com. Shamelessmack was well known for his blog. He also posted on gt.com under the handle macaroni21 and his last post was in April 2011. No-one seems to know why he then disappeared and his public blog ceased. That blog was widely read and considered one of the most interesting, informative, helpful and fun blogs about gay Thailand, especially the various bars and massage establishments he described in great detail. He even devised a couple of templates each with a series of abbreviations for the type of boy, build, looks, expertise etc. Posters on all the boards have frequently lamented his disappearance. If any reader happened to make copies of those templates, do please post them.

The link to the gaythailand.com page is listed at the end. The thread was titled тАЬOriginal Twilight Bar in BangkokтАЭ. The post I reprint is Post #3.


I do think that the days of the "spectacle"-type shows are nearing an end, i.e. the idea of a big central stage, with customers sitting quietly a distance away. It's too detached. The Wow factor made up for it, but it's wearing off fast. That said, two years after they end, others will reminisce achingly about the glory days of the shows and diss whatever will have replaced them.

----

I ask myself, if I were to launch a new bar, how would I do it, bearing in mind the economic trends?

Etrend 1: Boys expect to earn more as cost of living rises.

Etrend 2: Good-looking, good attitude boys may be scarcer, so trying to stock a bar with 100 boys (like Dream Boy today) would be unrealistic. Perhaps 30 - 40 boys would be max.

Etrend 3: The "arms-race" of doing ever more elaborate shows that need to be re-engineered frequently to keep them fresh costs an arm and a leg.

Etrend 4: Audience numbers will be flat until the great wave from China materialises. . .

Etrend 5: Even then, the Chinese may never be all that keen to off (reasons explained in the other thread Holiday Sunday Numbers Seem Down), but will likely be prepared to pay a small premium for small shows and nude dancing, something they don't get in their home country.

---

How will I address these issues? Perhaps I would hypothetically build a bar with a layout like this:

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l597/fountainhall/Shamelss_macl_bar_drawing.gif (http://s1125.photobucket.com/user/fountainhall/media/Shamelss_macl_bar_drawing.gif.html)

The operational model will be rather different from current, in response to each of the 5 economic trends mentioned above.

But first, I'll walk you (as customer) through the bar:

1. No women, no Thais under 20 years old, allowed.

2. No smoking inside the bar.

3. You enter and receive a number tag from the cashier (like in a sauna). All purchases made inside the bar will be charged to that number; you settle the account on departure. Perhaps a cover charge (200 baht?) can be paid on entry if the competitive environment allows it. That prepaid cover charge can be consummable, i.e. it is set off as a credit against purchases of drinks.

4. In the main salon, you will see several boys dancing in their briefs on the stage behind the bar. You are free to just sit at the bar, but you are obliged to order your first drink.

5. You may call a boy over, buy him a drink (or not) and sit with him in the sofas, and if the brief conversation works out, you off him.

6. Every hour on the hour, the captain announces "Showtime now. Anybody interested?"

7. Let's say 13 customers are interested. There are two more who are here to off a boy and aren't interested in the show; they continue to sit in the main salon, where boys continue to do their rotations on the stage -- in other words the show should not inconvenience these customers.

8. The captain opens two private rooms and splits the 13 customers into two groups, putting six in one room, seven in the other. The charge for the show is 200 or 250 baht per customer, which includes a second drink.

9. The show thus takes place in a more intimate setting -- a room no larger than a small bedroom -- where the boys dance a mere arm's length from the seated customers.

10. The boys either dance nude or dance in a manner that strips to nude. The etiquette is NO TOUCHING unless the boys invite you to lay your hands on them briefly. Naturally, the boys are encouraged as part of their routine to invite the customers by turn to do so from time to time, in order to up the thrill quotient.

12. The show is mostly done on a small, low podium/stage that is 2 metres by 2 metres (the size of a king-sized bed, enough space to allow for acts of sodomy if that's what the show requires).

13. In each room, the show involves about 6 boys (or maybe 8 boys if the cost structure allows it). In the first half, each boy does a 5-minute dance solo, either (i) coyote-style, (ii) Manila macho-dancer bar style, or (iii) Chiangmai style. In the second half, the 6 (or boys are paired or trio'ed for their routines.

14. From the customer's perspective, he is in a really intimate setting with boys hardly more than a metre away, making frequent eye contact and with seductive smiles. He is also invited by the dancing boys to touch and caress them now and then. The show has a degree of personal attention that a bigger showspace cannot provide. Although the customer had been asked to stump up an extra 200 or 250 baht for the show (on top of the first drink), he is getting value for it.

15. The economics is that the six or seven customers in a private room will have put up 1500 or 1750 baht for the show. Involving 6 (or boys, the labour cost for each room's show will be 600 (or 800) baht with each boy getting 100 baht for an hour's work (serious dancing, not shuffling)

16. The duration of the show is about 45 - 50 minutes, comprising 9 - 11 acts. At the end, the rooms have to be vacated for cleaning in preparation for the next round of shows. If a customer wants to see a subsequent show, it's another 200 or 250 baht, though for most people, 45 - 50 minutes will have been enough!

The economics of such a bar has the following characteristics:

The typical customer will be buying two drinks: the first drink on entry and the second drink either because he wants to sit with a boy prior to an off, or because he wants to see a show. Two drinks per customer is a significant improvement on the present one-drink average in most bars. The important thing though is that the customer must feel he gets value from paying for a second drink, and that is where an intimate, hands-on show comes in.

Staffing characteristics:

The bar doesn't need a lot of boys. Assuming on average at each hour, only two rooms are opened for shows, the bar needs only 12 boys (6 boys per room), plus another 10 - 12 doing the rotation in the main salon. If there's a surge of customers and all four private rooms need to be used, the same 12 dancing boys can cover all four rooms by having each dancing team of six boys to stagger their routines between two adjacent rooms. Double the work, yes, but double the earnings.

Competitive advantage:

Because there's a show every hour on the hour, customers can come any time that is convenient for them. The bar is able to attract customers at those hours where other bars aren't doing shows. Bars with "blockbuster" type shows can't afford to put up more than one-and-a-half of them per night, so they can't have a show going on through the entire evening. This little bar can.

---

The business model responds to the economic trends thus:

Response to Etrend 1: Currently, gogo boys are mostly wasting time, doing little and earning nothing unless/until they get an off which is "jackpot money". In the new business model, the boys are working for pay for many of the seven or eight hours they are in the bar. For each set of dancing in a private room (each boy does an average of two 5-minute items per 45-minute set) a boy earns 100 baht. Assuming a typical boy gets to do three sets a night, he earns 300 baht. Multipled by 25 days a month, he has base earnings of 7500 baht before tips.

Response to Etrend 2: As boys become scarcer, the bar runs on fewer boys, but these boys work harder to deliver satisfying shows. Running on fewer boys also means the bar owner can get a little picky about which boys to hire, thereby keeping the "good looks" factor, boosting the rate of offs.

Response to Etrend 3: No more elaborate staging for shows and the costs associated with that.

Response to Etrend 4: In an era of flat tourist numbers, such a bar will rarely look empty. That's because it is divided into small spaces, and you only open such spaces as are needed (also save on airconditioning). A small salon or private dance room with 6 customers in it looks a lot better than a bar that can seat 100, but has only six people; the atmosphere is more encouraging.

Response to Etrend 5: The bar and its boys draw revenue not by relying on high rate of offs -- in a new era of Chinese tourists this may not be realistic -- but by getting customers to pay for a second drink in order to get a satisfying show. Of course, any offs that the bar/boys get will be good too.

Operational imperatives for success:

A bar that requires boys to actually work through a seven-hour shift (rather than sit about or shuffle about as at present) requires boys with a good work ethic. This especially as every boy must be able to perform on stage, equipped with a handful of routines, executed reasonably well (i.e. with artistry, with good eye contact and seductive appeal to customers). This means training, training, training.

I also think it is imperative to address the problem of service quality after being off'd, but that's a separate issue . . .
Please bear in mind that the prices listed are as they stood in early 2011. They are over 50% higher now. Would the bib actually permit such small-scale shows with a touchy-feely element? Who knows? Something similar seems to work without a problem in Nature Boys. But the above model for larger bars is certainly interesting.

http://www.gaythailand.com/forums/topic ... r-bangkok/ (http://www.gaythailand.com/forums/topic/6548-original-twilight-bar-bangkok/)

One obvious question then arises. If the military government is serious in clamping down on corruption, one of its stated aims, what will be the effect on the above 'fees''? One scenario could be that bars will have less overheads and prices might come down.When should I start holding my breath? The only corruption the coup leaders are interested in stamping out is the corruption that shovelled the money into the Shinawatra family's pockets rather than the Army's pockets. Even then they're interested only in recalibrating, not abolishing.

[Jellybean]

Ah, ShamelessMack, a blast from the past fountainhall. I thoroughly enjoyed reading his blog. Thanks for posting the report on how he would improve the experience of going to a go-go bar. I remember reading it at the time and thought his suggestion was a positive contribution to the debate and very well thought out. It was after reading his reviews of massage parlours and outlining the way they operate and what you should expect, that persuaded me to try them out.

You asked if any reader happened to make copies of his templates. I searched through my old Word documents and found a document listing the massage parlours in Bangkok that he had reviewed in 2009. Not sure if that was what you had in mind.

Unfortunately I could not copy and paste it to my reply. Sorry, not really sure how to go about it. Anyone any suggestions?

[fountainhall]

. . . found a document listing the massage parlours in Bangkok that he had reviewed in 2009. Not sure if that was what you had in mind.
Thanks, but it was not a list. He had devised these quite complex templates that basically gave at a glance information about the boys/masseurs and perhaps also (I cannot quite recall) about the establishments themselves. Maybe Christian with his younger mind may remember more detail. I kept a few of his recommendations but never thought about keeping the templates.

[Jellybean]

Oh, I thought it was a reasonably complex template, not a mere list, which covered such headings as:

> Distance from Sala Daeng
> Standard of facility
> Type of Boys
> Number of Boys
> Selection Method
> Bed Type
> Showers
> Lockers
> Price

But sounds like I am barking up the wrong tree from what you say.

[fountainhall]

It was more complex than that. It had columns and then a series of letters (caps and lower case) and various numbers for each of the masseurs/boys. Clearly the masseurs/boys will almost all have changed, but once you got the hang of the system, it was ideal for summarising quickly each massage/off experience. I suppose there's no reason why someone else could not devise something similar. It would just need some thought - and then extensive research :p

[Up2U]

It was more complex than that. It had columns and then a series of letters (caps and lower case) and various numbers for each of the masseurs/boys. Clearly the masseurs/boys will almost all have changed, but once you got the hang of the system, it was ideal for summarising quickly each massage/off experience. I suppose there's no reason why someone else could not devise something similar. It would just need some thought - and then extensive research :p
You have just been nominated! :ymapplause:

[fountainhall]

Ha! Thanks Up2U. I guess I set myself up for that one! It would certainly be an interesting project, but time consuming and I generally only visit a massage establishments every three months or less. Once a template has been devised, Christian could be an ideal collator of the info, but I expect he'd need some financial assistance to get through so many places in a short time. ;)

[christianpfc]

I remember shamelessmack's blog, it was a great resource in my first years of coming to Thailand.

Unfortunately, I have only little printed or saved matter, I put everything in this article: http://christianpfc.blogspot.com/2013/1 ... found.html (http://christianpfc.blogspot.com/2013/10/shameless-mack-fragment-found.html)

I remember his massage parlor overview table (as Jellybean describes the headings for the columns), and have a printout somewhere (will scan and add if I find it). Massage is not my main business, instead I am trying to visit as many gays saunas as possible (and was thinking of a table with address, entry prices, accessibility, and most important theme days as I prefer underwear day).

And he had scheme to describe body shape and body hair. Shortly after I thought of taking a closer look and adapting his scheme, the website went private (before I did take a closer look or at least save articles).

Jellybean, you can send the document (website?) you saved to me and will edit it for publication (I know there can be problems when opening with a different browser or a new version).

[Jellybean]

Jellybean, you can send the document (website?) you saved to me and will edit it for publication (I know there can be problems when opening with a different browser or a new version).
As requested, IтАЩve sent the document to you Christian. I hope you can unravel it and post it here. The 2009 review of Bangkok massage parlours by ShamelessMack might be of interest to members who havenтАЩt already seen it.

[christianpfc]

Thank you, Jellybean. I didn't find a way to insert is as text, but saving as picture works (and amazingly, brings up the lower end of the explanations which is not visible when the original document is open in Word).

I must say the prices are quite high, and that was 2009. Now (2014) I pay 450 to 500 Baht for one hour oil massage in Silom (two different places, about once per month, same masseur), and 1000 tip for happy ending. But then, I frequent only places in low to medium price range, but would give them 2 to 3 stars by shamelessmack's definitions.

[attachment=0:3pa0elcu]shameless mack massage bangkok 2009.gif[/attachment:3pa0elcu]

[fountainhall]

Many thanks Christian and Jellybean. The other table of boy types I recall was much more specific than merely athletic, medium and twinks. Perhaps it only applied to certain bars and certain go-go boys rather than the massage establishments.

What would be a help to most visitors to Thailand - and no doubt expats - is a thick pocket-sized booklet similar to that published in Japan every year. This lists almost every gay establishment in the nation providing details not only of location, size, contact numbers and type of establishment, but also the type of clientele - e.g. bear bar for bears to meet slim guys under 40/small bar for young bttms to meet older tops/and so on. It takes a lot of the guesswork out of a night out. I used to call this The Pink Guide, but I think it's accurate title is The Otoko-Machi Map. I am sure a447 will know if this is correct. It sounds a bit like the listings in the back of the free hand-out gay magazines in Thailand, but it has much more information in an easily read coded format.

Japan is so organised that if you venture into a small Japanese only bar (you'll have to have a Japanese friend unless you speak pretty good Japanese), even before serving you a drink the mamasan will gently and discreetly enquire if you are a bttm or a top. Knowing your preference, he will then make a place available for you next to one or two guys whom he knows to be looking for the opposite! Talk about service!

[a447]

Yep, it's called the Otoko Machi Map (чФ╖шбЧуГЮуГГуГЧ). I belong to a few clubs so have ever needed it. I could have used it on my last trip though, but basically relied on the internet.

There are also lots of listings in the gay magazines, but would be of no use to foreigners if they don't read Japanese. This, coupled with the fact that many of the bars listed are hidden inside buildings which are very hard to find, and also the fact that many bars don't have any signs -or the sign is in Japanese characters - make Japan a frustrating destination for gay travellers.

And, of course, there are no Thai-style gogo bars. They do things their own way. So the bars in Thsiland may eventually disappear, but Japan will just continue on.

[fountainhall]

. . . the fact that many bars don't have any signs -or the sign is in Japanese characters - make Japan a frustrating destination for gay travellers
Whilst generally this can be true for those who think all bars welcome foreigners, I suggest it is certainly not a reason for avoiding Tokyo. There is enough gay venue info and easy directions on various internet sites and some publications (e.g. Time Out's excellent Tokyo guide) to direct the gay tourist to bars which do welcome foreigners like GB, Arty Farty and Kinsmen, and the two busy '24 Kaikan' saunas in Shinjuku and Ueno. Definitely not so easy in other cities, though.

As you say, whatever happens to the bars in Thailand, Japan will go its own way and the gay scene in its infinite variety will thrive.