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newalaan2
January 24th, 2014, 15:58
Face, Gaeng Jai and the limits my bf will go to avoid confrontation conspire to offer some of the strangest (to me/westerners) situations I have ever come across or witnessed in my life. Just one of the many things you have to come to terms with in Thailand. The first couple are in relation to my bfs village, but it's a feature of life anywhere in Thailand.

Just light-hearted observations.

We are walking through the village near the outskirts, we see a lad coming the other way from another village, he is gay but not generally liked in the area as he is a 'pest' when drunk and a trouble making gossip at other times. It's too late for the bfs normal first option of "avoiding action" in embarrassing or confrontational situations.........take another route before he notices! As we get closer the guy slows down to interact with bf. Bf stops and asks if the guy wants to join us later as we are having some friends and family round to the house. The boy says no thanks as he has a prior engagement, but thanks bf for invite, bf replies "sorry you can't make it, never mind maybe next time" (or words to that effect). Yes says the lad.

After the guy goes I ask, "why did you invite him to our get together tonite? you as well as all the others coming don't like him because he changes mood and personality when he gets boozy, he knows it, your friends know it so he doesn't like mixing with your friends. So why ask him?" The reply is.... "Gaeng Jai you know? Gaeng Jai!!" and it's a 'firm' reply!

So my bf asked someone he doesn't like to attend a party he doesn't want him to come to and the guy turned down the invitation showing disapppintment that he couldn't attend a function he had no intention of going to because he doesn't want to go and had absolutely no intention of accepting the invitation. So what was the point of the exchange, I was baffled. What if he HAD accepted it "he would have spoiled the night" I offer up......bf replies........ "he would never have accepted, he knew it, I knew it!". Even more baffling.

"Face" can be frustrating and odd at the best of times. "Gen" the muscular gay best volleyball player in the village goes to work in Scandanvia twice a year for about 3 months at a time. It isn't particularly skilled work but a friend of a relative stays there and the hourly wage is excellent for whatever he does. That twice a year income allows him to not have to work the rest of the year at home in the village. He stays in a 'normal' Issan village home although brick-walled and in good repair, has very little inside just the usual huge telly, fridge, sofa etc... Not particularly comfortable or attractive looking inside or out, a nice tlied floor is the best feature. So what does he do with his money? Buys a 1,000,000 baht top of the range vehicle, not even a pick up truck, an SUV. He 'put down' a basic up front payment and pays it up monthly over years. It's worth about 3-4 times the home the family live in. But here is the thing, this purchase has elevated him into a much higher social level not only in the village but in his own mind.

To see this lovely spanking-new vehicle parked next to the house is odd, when he is in the village he is just plain old "Gen" although with a slightly higher status in the villagers mind, but when out and about he sees himself in the same way as other strangers who don't know his background do, as a HiSo man about town. Pulls up in his one million baht car and gets instant attention wherever he goes, gets much more (false) fussiness at the 'pumps' . He of course HAS to be SEEN parking in a spot where he is SEEN exiting this vehicle. At the local buffet, the parking boys will always find him a space close to the restrauant where he can be seen, even though there are a few vehicles lining up there before him, they also accept any preference given to him. He of course tips them in accordance with his new found HiSo-ness. It's bizarre.

Avoiding confrontation/face. Bf would rather lose money on a deal than have a confrontation. We went to Surin area with two friends (the ones now in Navanakorn) We had to have an elephant ride of course there. It is late in the day the manhoots are winding down. We appear, they are delighted to have customers late in the day. I agree a price for very short 2 elephant rides at Bt500 per elephant. We finish trip the manhoot waits for payment, I say bf to pay him as I have to get the car, he comes back to the car, I am now owe bf Bt500.."why?" apparently the manhoot said "only Bt1000! how will the elephants eat I need at least another Bt500!! quote forcibly to bf, so of course he immediately caves in and gives it. I would'nt have, bf knows it, the manhoot knows it, my mistake for letting him pay!

We are exiting Paradise complex Phuket, I have an agreement with the hotel for 50% off the expensive parking. The security guy at the gate of the complex kindly suggested it to me. After 2 days of the car sitting the cost is officially Bt400, I have a chit from the hotel reception to reduce it to Bt200. We stop at the gate, the guy takes my parking ticket and chit and asks for Bt400, this is the same guy who suggested I get a concession, "but why? I have a chit!"........but the chit isn't stamped properly! "but you know its from reception and I know it is"....so I offer Bt200, the gate man is unsure, bf digs me in the ribs "just pay him the Bt400! just give him!" I whisper back "but he will just pocket the Bt200 I have gone to the trouble of trying to secure for us!" needless to say my Scottish-ness kicks in, I reverse the car, take back the chit, walk to the hotel and get the 'proper' stamp...the receptionist says it shouldn't have mattered the security guy knew the chit was ok without the stamp! we go. Bf starts up..."why didn't you just give him Bt400 we would have got out quicker!" We are in Phuket for a holiday we have loads of time....the correct fee was Bt200, we could buy lunch with that! I scratch my head, rather than have an issue, bf would have given Bt200 more. Of course it's not the money for me just the principle, but worth it in the opinion of bf for avoiding confrontation (at any cost!).

There are many other examples. Any other members with extreme examples of "gaeng Jai" or "face" and "face saving" and have the Expats/long time visitors come to fully understand when these situations are occurring?

Yraen
January 24th, 2014, 20:11
Kreng Jai is all around you, between Thai in all situations. Just keep your eyes open. And don't forget the related subservience shown to people of superior status. Now that really rubs foreigners.

It is not something you will ever completely understand, so just go with the flow.

Thai that are around foreigners frequently soon learn that we will take up issues that they would dance around, not to save their own face so much as the face of the other party. The Three Wise Monkeys put to practical effect.

My other half gets embarrassed when I take up 'issues' directly because being forceful or direct diminishes my face - in the opinion of the person to whom I am talking. (Think about the last time you were expected to just stand around at the hotel's front desk because the staff were chatting.)
Gradually my man is learning to talk with me man to man. I keep telling him that Kreng Jai does not matter very much to me. Slowly he has learned. :) - I think.

I do try to recognise these situations but some are so subtle that I find it very difficult. When it is two Thai interacting, I go and look in the shop windows or something equally enchanting.

Don't fight it - This is Thailand after all. Isn't it the differences that make Thailand attractive to us visitors?

January 25th, 2014, 02:37
It's not all "face" and "Thai culture". Some of the behaviour described I can observe in my own office in Farangland. The most typical example is people who organise meetings knowing full well that certain invitees cannot attend, and sometimes have waited until they're sure a particular person can't attend before organising the meeting. I have a particularly recalcitrant employee in my team who simply won't do certain aspects of her job but has set her heart on a sideways promotion that's coming up in a few months. I am biding my time, but she will be black-balled.

anonone
January 25th, 2014, 07:15
Another great post Newalan.

I have seen the same type of behavior with a car. Thais that will go into debt and really can't afford it, but do anyway to show how much they are "worth".

BF has a long-time Thai friend...grew up together in their village. He is VERY Hi-So acting, and it does bug me a lot to see how "fake" and uppity he gets.

I am pretty observant and think I pickup on most culture things, but the Gaeng Jai is a tough one for sure.

newalaan2
January 25th, 2014, 15:51
Thais that will go into debt and really can't afford it, but do anyway to show how much they are "worth".
In another post I made about the village and the options for gay lads to work I noted there wasn't much in the way of growth as far as business and industry was concerned around the town/villages in Issan where bf lives for new employment. The only new buildings and major refurbishments I see between visits seem to be undertaken by banks competing with eachother, how many banks do you need on a high street? On the main town centre road there are about 8 bank buildings and 4 or 5 Gold shops and this is not a particularly big town. Yet no new large industry to produce an influx of actual cash.

But the main thing I noted on the last trip was a massive new Chevrolet dealership on the only large road between the town and the villages. There has only ever been a small Mitsu dealership over the 6 years or so I have been visiting the area, then suddenly this huge place appears with adverts offering cars from 99 baht deposit to be repaid over 60+ months etc... and within weeks of this opening bf said a stack of folks in the village had their new Chevrolet. I mean it takes the folks here all their time to buy one of those vital two-stroke hand driven tractors, they rent other vital farming machinery because they can't afford them, but a new car? Yep we'll have to have that! Also normally, if a villager does have the wherewithal they would buy a very practical vehicle like a pick-up truck, or to show a bit of 'wealth' they might get a top range pick-up truck, a multi use vehicle invaluable for agricultural households as it can double as a work-horse and carry loads of family/extended family members. But no, the most popular car 'seen' around town is the small/medium size saloon, which holds 5 at a push with limited boot space and they are now all over the place.

This, notes the bf, has added a lot of pressure on many of the wannabe snobs to buy just to "keep up" as you always get some villagers who perceive they are more upscale than others, now with this new dealership their hands are being called on the 'face' front to see if they really can produce "proof" of this superior-ness, Rushed purchases are going to give this dealership a lot of business initially, and many villagers will land up with a heap of family debt over years. There is no real increase in cash around the village, it's obvious, only a small increase in daily farm labour rates, the mainstay income in the surrounding area. It's all borrowed finance. Bf reckons next big business opportunity will probably be serious loan-sharking over the next year or two.

lego
January 25th, 2014, 16:22
Thanks a lot for sharing your impressions, newalaan2! Interesting read.

thaiguest
January 25th, 2014, 16:56
There's a little detail you're missing here which has to with DISRESPECT to you.
The mahoot money and the parking money that boyfriend paid and wished to pay was YOUR money- not his. I see Thais all the time waiting for the return of change from fellow Thais in amounts as low as 1 baht.
It's big face for them to be the guy /lady who gets the falang to hand over extra cash to a fellow Thai. You see you're basically a "cash cow" to be milked whenever possible whether you like to be told this or not. There's also the fact that the boy ignored your wishes in the mahoot case and tried to over-rule you in the carpark case. And no, he's probably not special and different from the rest.

anonone
January 25th, 2014, 18:03
But no, the most popular car 'seen' around town is the small/medium size saloon, which holds 5 at a push with limited boot space and they are now all over the place.


So true. Last time I went up to the village, BF asked me to rent a sedan/regular car instead of the basic pickup that I usually opt for. I think it is seen as more upscale, since it has no utility use on a farm. Almost like driving a pickup would be similar to driving a tractor around...

cdnmatt
January 25th, 2014, 19:06
Some of you guys over complicate this whole "greng-jai" thing completely. Basically, it's nothing more than acting on empathy. That's it.

If you're sitting around eating a bunch of chicken wings, and you offer the last one to someone across the table even though you want it, that's greng-jai.

If you're on the metro, and stand up to offer your seat to someone else, that's greng-jai.

If you invite someone over to a party to be nice, even though you don't really want them there, that's greng-jai.

If you're going for an outing, but there isn't enough room for everyone in the truck, and you stay back and give up your spot, that's greng-jai.

That's all there really is to it. There's nothing mystical or complex about it. Although I'm sure quite a few Thai guys love making it sound really mysterious, becuase it makes them feel special, plus makes you an easier target to be taken advantage of.

Nirish guy
January 25th, 2014, 23:38
But no, the most popular car 'seen' around town is the small/medium size saloon, which holds 5 at a push with limited boot space and they are now all over the place.


So true. Last time I went up to the village, BF asked me to rent a sedan/regular car instead of the basic pickup that I usually opt for. I think it is seen as more upscale, since it has no utility use on a farm. Almost like driving a pickup would be similar to driving a tractor around...

I had exactly the same instance happen and for exactly the same reason. I explained that in reality we would be going to his village and half the neighbourhood would end up piling in to join us if we were going anywhere so the pick could easily seat 6 or 8 inside and another however many in the trunk part with the kid off - but no, saloon car it was and they would just all have to squeeze in on top of each other as "face" was more important than comfort apparently ! Go figure !

Bobett
January 26th, 2014, 00:54
There's a little detail you're missing here which has to with DISRESPECT to you.
The mahoot money and the parking money that boyfriend paid and wished to pay was YOUR money- not his. I see Thais all the time waiting for the return of change from fellow Thais in amounts as low as 1 baht.
It's big face for them to be the guy /lady who gets the falang to hand over extra cash to a fellow Thai. You see you're basically a "cash cow" to be milked whenever possible whether you like to be told this or not. There's also the fact that the boy ignored your wishes in the mahoot case and tried to over-rule you in the carpark case. And no, he's probably not special and different from the rest.

I agree with thaiguest 100% on this. As falang thais dont expect us to have any face. We are not thai and from childhood they are taught that to be thai is everything.Anyone else is a 2nd class person. We are only respected for having money,the more money the more respect.

Iv been here a long time and accept this and still love it here and would never leave. You just have to chill out and go with the flow.

January 26th, 2014, 03:17
If you're on the metro, and stand up to offer your seat to someone else, that's greng-jai.It certainly would be and I've never, ever, ever seen a Thai do this except once, a couple of weeks ago, where a Thai stood up so a child - a child for god's sake - could sit down. Even seats carefully labelled for seniors are never offered to seniors if there's a younger person sitting there and a senior comes along. Perhaps it happens on the metro near where you're currently living in Thailand Matt?

lego
January 26th, 2014, 10:50
I'm using the MRT and the BTS on an almost daily basis, and I've certainly seen many Thais give up their seats for children, elderly people and pregnant women. The only real difference to a Western country, from my experience, is that children (and not just toddlers) are ALSO considered extra-deserving of a seat, so unlike in the West, a child wouldn't give up their seat for an elderly person. Mostly those who seem eager to give up their seat are guys in their 20s and 30s.

Manforallseasons
January 26th, 2014, 15:07
The Op's long winded post can be summed up with little hokus pocus and the use of some common manners and or the use of your money. Just a side bare I cringe when I see older falang Y children and bar boys , they have no idea how foolish they appear.

dab69
January 26th, 2014, 22:35
The Op's long winded post can be summed up with little hokus pocus and the use of some common manners and or the use of your money. Just a side bare I cringe when I see older falang Y children and bar boys , they have no idea how foolish they appear.

they might as well be offering advice
with clown paint on their face?

thaiguest
January 26th, 2014, 23:49
There's a little detail you're missing here which has to with DISRESPECT to you.
The mahoot money and the parking money that boyfriend paid and wished to pay was YOUR money- not his. I see Thais all the time waiting for the return of change from fellow Thais in amounts as low as 1 baht.
It's big face for them to be the guy /lady who gets the falang to hand over extra cash to a fellow Thai. You see you're basically a "cash cow" to be milked whenever possible whether you like to be told this or not. There's also the fact that the boy ignored your wishes in the mahoot case and tried to over-rule you in the carpark case. And no, he's probably not special and different from the rest.

I agree with thaiguest 100% on this. As falang thais dont expect us to have any face. We are not thai and from childhood they are taught that to be thai is everything.Anyone else is a 2nd class person. We are only respected for having money,the more money the more respect.

Iv been here a long time and accept this and still love it here and would never leave. You just have to chill out and go with the flow.

I've edited out my reply as I misread your word "agree" as "disagree". Don't know why- the bars are closed so I can't claim "mao-ness" Sorry.

Manforallseasons
January 27th, 2014, 00:52
The Op's long winded post can be summed up with little hokus pocus and the use of some common manners and or the use of your money. Just a side bare I cringe when I see older falang Y children and bar boys , they have no idea how foolish they appear.

they might as well be offering advice
with clown paint on their face?


Exactly :ymapplause:

dab69
January 27th, 2014, 21:27
not half as foolish as a man in white clown face paint
offering advice with bar boys would look...

doubt if any would
even notice the bar boys

Manforallseasons
January 28th, 2014, 00:08
The Op's long winded post can be summed up with little hokus pocus and the use of some common manners and or the use of your money. Just a side bare I cringe when I see older falang Y children and bar boys , they have no idea how foolish they appear.

they might as well be offering advice
with clown paint on their face?


Were you sober when you wrote this?

dab69
January 28th, 2014, 11:33
The Op's long winded post can be summed up with little hokus pocus and the use of some common manners and or the use of your money. Just a side bare I cringe when I see older falang Y children and bar boys , they have no idea how foolish they appear.

they might as well be offering advice
with clown paint on their face?


Were you sober when you wrote this?


Were you a little twerp
when you wrote this?

Think I already know the answer- nevermind

christianpfc
January 29th, 2014, 09:22
I agree a price for very short 2 elephant rides at Bt500 per elephant. We finish trip the manhoot waits for payment,...
The op means "mahout".

Regarding the cars, it's the same in Europe:
people buy things they don't need with money they don't have to impress people they don't like.

marti
January 29th, 2014, 16:28
It's not all "face" and "Thai culture". Some of the behaviour described I can observe in my own office in Farangland. The most typical example is people who organise meetings knowing full well that certain invitees cannot attend, and sometimes have waited until they're sure a particular person can't attend before organising the meeting. I have a particularly recalcitrant employee in my team who simply won't do certain aspects of her job but has set her heart on a sideways promotion that's coming up in a few months. I am biding my time, but she will be black-balled.
Beg your pardon but this analogy does not fit the OP at all. It is totally different.

Mancs
February 2nd, 2014, 22:00
I have told the Thai man I am seeing that I will look after him; I am not here to look after tuk tuk drivers. Taxi drivers the world over try it on-so they need a bit of push back. Blackpool or Nong Khai-same same.

loke
April 12th, 2014, 19:59
I dont understand this . Best thing is not to speak , just have sex .

thaiguest
April 16th, 2014, 14:45
I have told the Thai man I am seeing that I will look after him; I am not here to look after tuk tuk drivers. Taxi drivers the world over try it on-so they need a bit of push back. Blackpool or Nong Khai-same same.

Not exactly the same.

If for some (unlikely) reason your Thai friend ended up paying for a taxi for both of you in Blackpool you would not try to push him into paying an unfair fare to your fellow-Englishman-the taxi driver.

(Assuming that there's such a thing as an 'english' taxi driver now left in England.)