Lives of/options for gay over-18 year old Thais.

[newalaan2]

On Gaybutton Board there has been a good discussion about bars which included posts about in impact of technology, Gay Romeo, Grindr etc.. is making on the bars and available boys that led to comments that boys don't need the bars so much as things have changed for the better in Thailand with more opportunites than previous years. Also with the political situation at the fore again there are various claims by both parties that their policies offer better opportunities to young Thais for work and living conditions, but while it seems middle class thai do have a better lot nowadays has the situation changed much for gay lads from poorer Issan/North East backgrounds?

Just some musings and observations from recent visits with regard to my Thai bf and our gay friends and the lives they lead, and also to make note that not every gay Issan lad heads to Pattaya for easy money. I would be interested to see what other's have experienced with younger Thai friends. I have friends from both middle class Bkk and the less well-off Issan.

What are the options for gay lads now compared to a decade ago? For middle class there is definitely more opportunites as their parents can afford further education and Uni places but for the Issan lads not much has changed I don't think. Maybe the next generation might see better times but for now I think they are still stuck with the same options as 10-15 years ago. Maybe different regions have different options.

My bfs village in Issan is part of a small collection of 4 moo-baans/small villages very close to one another and a small town about 4-5 kms away. While I have seen growth over the 6-7 years I have been visiting the area, not much in the way of decent jobs have been created in that time. Sure the daily wage for agricultural work has gone from Bt150 a day to Bt300 a day but parents still cannot afford the further education for a decent long term job.

So the main options for a gay lad in bfs Issan village are still the same as a decade ago. Work on the family land/family enterprise, pick up a good shopwork job with a steady income (Bt7-10,000 per month) in the area, move to an area with factory work (Bt10-Bt15,000 per month) or consider trying your luck in Pattaya/bkk bars/massage. Bf has 3 very close friends, I've kown them for all the years I have been visiting, they are nice, cute, attractive gay lads who could easily do well in the bars, only one has tried his luck in Bkk bars as his home circumstaces were dire when his father suddenly died and he is the oldest and only male. He only lasted a month or so. The other two just didn't think they could hack working bars and anyway simply didn't want to, but they never bad-mouth gay lads who do choose bar work, whereas I note that my Higher-So Bkk gay friends can be very distainful about gay boys and their peers who work the bars.

So about the only real option (apart from the bar scene) for them and many gay lads from Issan who don't like to be in their family's lives 24/7 and have a life of their own is to move away to an area with factories. All three of my bf's friends recently decided to move to Navanakorn, an huge industrial centre on the outskirts of Bkk. They work 12 hour shifts, have 1 day off per week as well as other holidays here and there. All earn about Bt12,000-Bt14,000 per month, a typical room for about Bt3500 a month shared between 2, in a modern purpose-built apartment complex, in fact the area is so vast that each identical block of flats has a huge number painted on the side from 1-40 for easy address recognition. But accommodation is excellent in these brand new blocks, with a large main room and kitchen area off incl balcony, a bedroom and toilet/shower room with western toilet. Many Pattaya expats on a limited fixed pension would probably be delighted with it despite no aircon.

On a Sunday, the main day off for factory workers, Navanakorn transforms into a massive bustling, busy town. It is self-contained almost a in parallel world, the sois are packed with furniture shops, white goods shops with top brands, high-end technology centres for iPhones, large screen TVs etc... all available, of course, on long term buy-now-pay-later deals to supply the apartments of all these workers who have a reasonable but guaranteed income. The amount of workers moving in and out of apartments creates a huge industry on it's own. There is even one (very busy central) soi with about 10 karaoke bars with females available every night of the week for single males with disposable income. 285Blend whisky sets available in all bars at about Bt500, folk pubs, dance clubs and huge outdoor restaurants without virtually a single western face to be seen. Street food is ridiculously cheap compared to the likes of Pattaya, with dozens and dozens of food outlets all twinkly lights and buzzing every night. Great atmosphere.

Their lives are pretty hum-drum most of the time, slogging 12 hour shifts followed by sleep and another 12 hour shift. Most nights though depending on shift times they do manage to squeeze in at least some leisure time and socialise in groups with beer/whisky set or even LaoKhao, plenty of other gay lads, manly and femme types, as you find all over Thailand but I see most femme boys are straight-acting and not as obvious and flamboyant as their Pattaya equivalents, so plenty opportunity for having boyfriends, giks, casual sex if the stars align. They all send home a regular decent fraction of their wages, as unlike their Pattaya counterparts they don't really have much lesure time to spend it and apart from essentials rent, food, transport, iPhone and TV needs are modest. One or two very close friends may share the purchase of a motorcycle on credit, but the area is so compact and motorcy taxis are ALL only 10 baht per journey there is hardly a need to.

Given the lack of weekly/monthly highlights they really appreciate a visit to the local folk pub like Tawang Daeng equivalent called Sen Jan and it's not an expensive night, a bit like a night at Tam Nan Issan in Pattaya but the evening starts at 9pm and most are getting drunk by 10-11pm unlike Pattaya where most places don't get going till 1am, but workers who finish shifts 7pm get home and get out early. And the places are bouncing at 10pm! packed to the rafters electric atmosphere, again never see another white face in the crowd and plenty of interaction from the thai guys but mostly gals and there is a surprising amount of them with good English skills which I expect is due to the fact many work for multinational firms where English would be the common international language. So young Thias here do not need the wallets of foreigners to fund their sanook time, they just share the fairly modest bill where bars and food outlet profits are based more on huge turnovers with small margins.

When I go to these venues I find it's mostly girls who approach, or 'chink' the glass, with many invites to tables on way to/from toilets for a drink, especially after 11pm. I really need to practise a mincing walk a bit more!, although there is no lack of gaydar moments. Live music interspersed with DJ sets and massive amounts of sanook!

The gay guys we know tend not to "think too much" about their lot in life, and just get on with it. Friends become their surrogate families away from home but many have known their friends from birth, and in my BFs village straight, gay and katoey boys are recognised and labelled at a very young age but with absolutely no prejudice just more as a matter of fact. In my bfs village gays/katoeys/straights are given equal respect with attitudes depending on the type of person they are as opposed to their sexual preferences.

It's interesting that while all three friends don't want to work the bars or to enter the entertainment/massage industry none would turn down the possibility of a western boyfriend, even a sugar daddy, but are not prepared to sleep their way around to find one. All agree and have said their families would probably be delighted if the chose that path, and in the village with traditional and modern villagers alike there still tends to be an attitude of...."isn't X so fortunate to have a western boyfriend to improve his/her life". "Prospects" still being as important as "love" when it comes to relationships between Thais themselves and relationships with westerners a step up the social ladder.

A rather rambling post with nothing particularly controversial or enlightening and no doubt of little or no interest to many, just some observations of the mundane lives many gay lads lead outside the sex-industry and a change from Pattaya bar reviews, perhaps a bit more relevant to those reading the boards who have moved-on over time from a Pattaya-centric visit/life In Thailand. I used to enjoy cdnmatt, smiles and other's snippets of life outside Bkk/Pattaya as the time split between Bkk/Pattaya sanook and normal life during my month-long visits to Thailand is about equal nowadays so I'm interested in both.

[Halfhansum]

Well i found it a very interesting insight Newallaan ... Thanks for that ..

[jimnbkk]

Fascinating post. I wish I could express myself so well.

[Brad the Impala]

Not rambling at all! Well thought out and interesting, in fact I'm going to read it again! To make sure I haven't missed anything.

[RichLB]

I really like that post and hope it will inspire others to share their experiences outside the usual Pattaya/Bkk topics. Thanks for posting.

[GWMinUS]

Not sure how I happened on this post from many years ago.
But I found it most interesting.
Right now I am dealing with two Filipino BFs and where they are going in life.
They are gay would never admit it!!!
I hope they find good work there and, above all, can help their families.
Achieve the respect they so want in life!!
Take care!!

An excellent discourse newalaan but only a passing reference to the main problem - a deliberate policy by the elite whose gay sons look down on Isaan money boys to keep the yokels in their place by denying them an adequate education whereby they can try for something other than being unskilled factory fodder. It's the same elite who now rally around Suthep when he reinforces their prejudices - that the peasants will "sell" their votes to a political party that promises to look after their interests. Oh the shame of it.

Come the revolution ...

[adman5000]

great reading. Thank you.

[Khor tose]

A rather rambling post with nothing particularly controversial or enlightening and no doubt of little or no interest to many, just some observations of the mundane lives many gay lads lead outside the sex-industry and a change from Pattaya bar reviews, perhaps a bit more relevant to those reading the boards who have moved-on over time from a Pattaya-centric visit/life In Thailand. I used to enjoy cdnmatt, smiles and other's snippets of life outside Bkk/Pattaya as the time split between Bkk/Pattaya sanook and normal life during my month-long visits to Thailand is about equal nowadays so I'm interested in both.

Nothing is rambling or unenlightened about this post, The same observations could be made about Thais in Chiang Mai, as in many ways it is still a village. Thank you newalaan for posting this

[christianpfc]

Very interesting, thank you very much for sharing.

I was aware of these industrial estates, but had no idea about the extent (like a small town, compact, no waste of time for commuting, according to your report), althought I regularly see them mentioned on camfrog.

If I understand correctly, you went there with your Thai friend? Which means residents there can bring friends into the area?


local folk pub like Tawang Daeng equivalent called Sen Jan
By chance, I have been to such a place (Sen Jan) in Bangkok recently. Their romanisation is misleading, for the benefit of future readers: р╣Бр╕кр╕Зр╕Ир╕▒р╕Щр╕Ч р╕гр╣М s─Гeng jan, in English "moonlight" http://www.sangjan.net/

[a447]

This is one of the most interesting posts I've read on sgt over the past few years. Really enlightening - a great read. Newalaan I hope you can post more down the track.
Thanks.

[ddsfo]

thanks for an excellent inside look at life and the options for young issan men.
can you say more about the one lad that lasted a month in the gay bar?
here in chiang mai the underclass (often illegal) is shan state boys.
when they are illegal, they are exploited with day work typically paying 150-200 baht/day

who tends to work at a gay bar longer seems to depend on 3 factors:
not already having a reasonable day job (working day + night results in a quick burnout--even if they want that new iphone);
being offed at least a few times per month;
developing good social connections at the bar;

since the boys are not offed very often, most of their work time is with each other, if a new
boy has a good social fit with the others at the bar, it makes being there much better.
here the boys have the option of saying no to a customer. they seem to do that one out of 10 or 20 customers,
usually because the customer is drunk. a new boy that fits in is told which customers can be a problem.

[Pattayamale]

"So the main options for a gay lad in bfs Issan village are still the same as a decade ago. Work on the family land/family enterprise, pick up a good shopwork job with a steady income (Bt7-10,000 per month) in the area, move to an area with factory work (Bt10-Bt15,000 per month) or consider trying your luck in Pattaya/bkk bars/massage."

Great post. The quote above led me to think about some of the guys (6) I have known for more about 15 years. They all came from the same village near Korat. All friends of my fiance (yes, he and I will marry in the next few weeks in USA).

During the last 5 years, they have either started their own business or started working for Ford, Mazda, or Toyota. None had more that a high school education (most 6 grade). None other than my fiance, has the support of a farang.

All have a fairly new truck or car. 2 have been able to open a business for their parents. All go back to there village when they can,

Those that work for the car companies (3) do have good salaries, are paid overtime, get paid vacations, and so far a substantial yearly bonus in excess of 100,000. They also get job training. One sent to a plant in Japan for 2 weeks.

I believe that these opportunities did not exist for many Thais then. Maybe the opportunities to move closer to middle class are improving in Thailand.

Another observation, several of those working at bars/massage are Laos and Burmese.

[newalaan2]

Just to put some detail on the guys I refer to on the thread and may pop up if I post a follow-up post (the stuff I cut out from the original post as it was far too rambling and long). I have a thai bf whom I met in Oct 2006 in the home town/village I describe in the post. We didn't become 'an item' until 2007 a good few months later. So for the first 6-7 years of Thailand trips I visited Bkk, Pattaya, Chiang Mai, Phuket, Cha Am/HuaHin regularly and had various overnighters, giks, fuck-buddies, bar boys etc... just like most of us here have experienced and no doubt are still experiencing!

I also have known my closest and most trusted thai friend (apart from bf) for near 14 years whom I met on my very first trip to Thailand in a folk club/pua-chee-wit venue. He is straight with occasional bi-moments. He is married now with a son. I borrow his pick-up to travel round Thailand when visiting. He and my bf have turned into very good, trusted close friends, although bf is more at home with his lady..haha.. He used to have a typical Issan food roadside eatery with 5-6 tables/living accommodation attached in Ayutthaya for a few years until the big floods a couple years back. He then moved to Navanakorn to find steady work with his lady. Coincidentally it was the very same area (couple kms apart) that our gay friends from bf's village went to work. There are also 2 female friends from the village who have worked in Navanakorn for 3-4 years previously who the gay lads stayed until they found their own apartments. These were the reasons I found myself visiting Navankorn every trip for the last 2-3 years.

I have another Thai guy, (now only friend), who was a fuck-buddy before I met my bf who lived in Bkk but was not in the sex-industry with a very stable home life... mother in local government.... father pen-pusher in police. He was not one of the sheep and had a mind of his own which his parents have been very understanding of. They accept his gayness and I am his only Western friend......again they accepted that. We finished as occasional lovers after I met my bf, but have kept in touch and he gets on ok with bf when we met up and have gone out to the clubs/bars in Rachada and elsewhere around Bkk....but never Silom he really wouldn't be seen dead there. That is how dismissive his friends are about boys in the sex trade.

I have a number of gay lads I know who were previously long time sex buddies, working boys from Pattaya, again before I met bf some who still work in Pattaya bars many now waiters, managers etc.. including M the owner of Happy Place who I met the very first week he arrived in Pattaya from his home in Bkk to work the bars. That was my connection to Neal and the ONLY common ground I shared with him. From that relationship I have a great deal of detail from Neals time as bar and forum owner but which I would not post on public forums as that would be lowering myself to Neal's gutter dwelling life, and anyway, have yet to establish from the owner here what subjects can be tackled without concern of deletion or censorship.


I hope you can post more down the track.
I actually cut out a stack of text after I read back the post to correct spelling errors and realised I had rambled far more than I thought as I composed it 'on the hoof' without any real structure. I had moved on to talk about life in the village for gay lads and examples of some misconceptions of attitudes to westerners and aspects of village and gay life in the 'sticks' some who have never visited might have. I'll try find time to re-post it.


I was aware of these industrial estates, but had no idea about the extent (like a small town, compact, no waste of time for commuting, according to your report), althought I regularly see them mentioned on camfrog

If I understand correctly, you went there with your Thai friend? Which means residents there can bring friends into the area?
Well I had always been aware of these areas due to various friends not really connected to the sex scene going to work there for periods of time. When my long time friend and bfs friends from the village went to work there I started visiting more regularly and finding out bit by bit.

Originally I went there with my bf to visit my long time friend (i'll call Tee) whom we had visited regularly when he lived in Ayutthaya with his lady, then moved to Navanakorn after Ayutthaya was flooded and their small eatery and room were ruined. But yes, no problem with me visiting the area and although I get a lot of double-takes from many thais as they are not used to seeing a white face, I am welcomed everywhere I go. I can speak a very little thai so can order food, talk to motocy taxi drivers, bar staff, shop staff and general folk which clearly helps. I always usually remember to talk 'normal' thai in Bkk as opposed to throwing in the Lao/issan words I hear all the time, as I only learned thai from books for the first 2 years after which I got lazy and just used the same language of the thais I was 'socialising' with...oh and from songs on Karaoke VCDS I played on my portable DVD.

Yes, residents are free to do what they like and no restrictions on who can come and go. The apartment blocks are 5 storeys, all have balconies, lots of street parking all round. There is even a central bin collection/emptying centre where the refuse trucks collect rubbish and residents can clean out their wheeled-bins and leave them to dry in the daytime sun. There are absolutely NO SHOPS within the apartment blocks area, only room for parking and motocy taxis. But everything is a stones-throw outside the apartment block compound and everything within is very orderly, clean and well kept. The 'town' area with the shops, restaurants and bars has only one way in and one way out, which is why unless someone takes you there specifically you would probably never know of it's existence, yet there are thousands of people. It is very ghetto-like.

It is set apart from the main Navanakorn through which the main Bkk trunk road from the North/north-east runs. The traffic jams on this 5 km strech last from 8am Sunday morning to midnight, and every night from 5pm to 10-11pm. The highway is in fact one long and slow que with dozens and dozens of buses in the jam. These are the chartered buses for the workers of specific factories who transport their workers to the further-flung living areas outside Navanakorn itself...even as far as Ayutthaya. It is actually difficult to take-in the numbers involved in the industry there. The numbers are staggering.


By chance, I have been to such a place (Sen Jan) in Bangkok recently. Their romanisation is misleading, for the benefit of future readers: р╣Бр╕кр╕Зр╕Ир╕▒р╕Щр╕Ч р╕гр╣М s─Гeng jan, in English "moonlight"
Thanks for the education and website link. When I hear Thais mention Saeng-Jan, it has sounded to me like, sanjan, sainjan, sentjan....but I have never seen it Romanised anywhere. I knew it meant "moonlight" as it is the name of one of the most favourite and well-known songs of Thai folk/rock superstars Maleehuanna. Who write deep meaningful, thoughtful songs about life.....and it's good and bad elements, romantic and realistic looks on life, and are my, and many of my thai friends favourite band of Thai musicians.


but only a passing reference to the main problem - a deliberate policy by the elite whose gay sons look down on Isaan money boys to keep the yokels in their place by denying them an adequate education whereby they can try for something other than being unskilled factory fodder. It's the same elite who now rally around Suthep when he reinforces their prejudices - that the peasants will "sell" their votes to a political party that promises to look after their interests. Oh the shame of it.Come the revolution ...
Ah yes "kommentariat" I deliberately kept out any politics and opinions I may have.......in favour of a factual account of my experiences to save getting into any disagreements/arguments etc.. as opinions tend to encourage. I have the same opinion of Organised Religion through the centuries to now, but that's a different thread.

Anyway according to my bf thai politics have "nothing to do with me". BUT! of course you are correct with your comments as you already know, and even from my occasional interaction with more middle class Hi-so Thais I can gauge their snooty, superior attitude to lower classes and working class boys, although my middle class bkk friend is very open minded many of his 'friends' who seem to accept me ok, are downright insulting to boys who work in the sex industry.

From my observations in Navanakorn I can see the full extent of the unskilled factory fodder you mention and the sheer numbers it takes to keep that industrial output going. It is difficult not to compare those bland purpose-built apartment blocks for the workers in Navanakorn to the same equivalent rows of terraced housing built by factory owners during the British Industrial Revolution in the Northern English towns and cities last century. But the actual politics are for another thread.

[francois]

"
Those that work for the car companies (3) do have good salaries, are paid overtime, get paid vacations, and so far a substantial yearly bonus in excess of 100,000. They also get job training. One sent to a plant in Japan for 2 weeks. .

I do know one Thai who I helped to leave the bar scene and who did get a job with Ford at their plant in Laem Chabang . Although the pay is decent it still is a hard life for him. But a100,000 TB annual bonus? That would be equal to what they earn in one year.

[Smiles]

What an excellent, detailed and thoughtful topic you've started Alaan. I can relate to a lot of what you've included in your original post - especially the time line.
The board needs much more of posts such as yours. (I'm thinking already).

[BonTong]

Great thread and some very valid observations.

Here in Chiang Mai most of the time I am with younger Thais, both friends and work colleagues, some gay, all gay friendly. Although none work in factories, many have regular тАЬworking classтАЭ jobs, be it electrician, air-con maintenance, delivery drivers, hotels, restaurants or what have you and their lifestyles are similar to what newalaan describes.

Actually, Tawan Deang in Chiang Mai is a regular couple of times a month night out for these guys. And itтАЩs a mixed crowd, not all gay that go out together. They go out to plenty of other local places too, largely Thai style bars and restaurants that many farang living here arenтАЩt even aware of.

Coincidentally, IтАЩve just written an article about similar themes to those set out in the first paragraph of the OP. Aside from economic factors, a big change I see is the fact prostitution is far less acceptable than it was a few years ago. I have seen this in our circle of gay friends from various rural villages in Northern Thailand.

Back when, several of the older boys were real Soi Twilight pros, yet the younger generation, now in their late teens and early twenties want absolutely nothing to do with that scene. Some even express considerable distaste for Farangs who automatically assume them to be prostitutes and available for a fee. Despite being gay, they wonтАЩt go anywhere near Chiang MaiтАЩs so called тАЬgay barsтАЭ.

You can read more of my thoughts on the subject here, though some may find the conclusions unpalatable: Chiang Mai City News тАУ Where did all the Nice Boys go? (http://www.chiangmaicitynews.com/news.php?id=2852)

N.B. sorry to post this twice as I'd already mentioned this article in the A bit of nostalgia from Chiang Mai (http://sawatdeenetwork.com/forum/bit-nostalgia-from-chiang-mai-t30176.html#p284960) But it seemed to have some synergy with the discussion here.

[BonTong]

here in chiang mai the underclass (often illegal) is shan state boys.
when they are illegal, they are exploited with day work typically paying 150-200 baht/day
Whilst I agree with the statement and strongly sympathise with the plight of Tai Yai people in Chiang Mai, I'm not sure it's relevant in the context of this thread. Whilst clearly an underclass here the Tai Yai's do not have a monopoly. There is another underclass which is the different hill tribe people and there is a very clearly defined Thai underclass; northern Thai people (with ID and Thai ethnicity) who come from rural villages. They are badly looked down on by the Thai Chinese hi-so families that run the city in the same way that the rural Isaan boys others have referred to are.


who tends to work at a gay bar longer seems to depend on 3 factors:
not already having a reasonable day job (working day + night results in a quick burnout--even if they want that new iphone);
being offed at least a few times per month;
developing good social connections at the bar;
Ummm, again, not untrue, but its not the way most of the Tai Yai guys I know have come to be, or stay in the sex business. The Shan have a strong social network here, not to mention their own mafia that control a lot of what goes on :-o . Most Tai Yai bar boys I've talked to were introduced to the bar through their friends and social connections, rather than that being something developed in the bar (i.e the "social connections" are more expansive than just the bar, or even all the bars). The route I see as more common is guys coming to CM to work in construction or other menial jobs (either voluntarily or trafficked), then they get into a peer group who's lives revolve around Yaabaa, alcohol and gambling. Their peers introduce them to the bars as a way to finance their lifestyle.

On the other hand, there are almost no gay Thais working in Chiang Mai's gay go-go bars, but that's another topic.

[morse]

Thanks for your post. I found it was NOT rambling and very interesting. There is always much more to Thailand than meets the western eye. I will look forward to more such posts! From you or anyone else.

[newalaan2]

Here in Chiang Mai
Thanks for your response from a Chiang Mai perspective, it was just the kind of reply I was hoping for.

I'm hoping others can chip in with their experiences of the gay thai guys lives they know of, it would be great to hear from those with Issan gay friends to see if there is common ground between the various responses and to see how they compare to my own. Especially their experiences with village life for a gay lad, which I hope to find time to also post about.


(I'm thinking already).
Hope you can turn that into a post, your engaging post about the house trouble back in your boyfriends village was actually the inspiration for me to post something outwith the usual Pattaya bar reports.


They also get job training. One sent to a plant in Japan for 2 weeks.
Yes this seems to happen in many companies. One of the details I didn't mention about the boy who tried the bars for only a month before giving up, is that he will be going to Sth Korea soon for training (start of the year), he hasn't the best English skills and is a very dedicated guy on whatever he sets his mind to (apart from bar work apparently!) and that must be what his bosses have picked-up on, he is excited and hesitant at the prospect in equal amounts. I hope he is back before my trip late next month, so I can catch up with his progress. Thanks for your input.

[christianpfc]

I wonder how working Thais manage to go to late night venues and then to work next day. I do it about twice per month, if the place closes at 2 am (sangjan) or 3 am (DJ station), I am in bed an hour later and have to get up at 8 and start work at 9. I couldn't do it every week.

I met several gay Thais who would be a good intellectual match for me, but are not so much my type. None of them frequent the gay scene (bars, discos, saunas), all encounters were on the internet.

A friend B from Germany is in Thailand for holiday. He met with a Thai boy who works in a factory in Chonburi (I should have asked for details, especially how he can take several days off work) and came on his motorbike to meet B in Pattaya. They know from camfrog and now chat on skype. B is in his 60s, overweight, does not speak Thai and his English is limited. So is the Thai boy's. They have a common vocabulary of a few hundred words in English. I translated German/Thai for them. The Thai boy looks fine, with short hair I would consider him a potential sexual partner. B just compensates his travel expenses (and a bit more). It's a miracle how they found together.

B is chatting with another Thai boy who lives in Ayutthaya and writes good English. The boys earns about 10,000 Baht per month and is leasing a car for about 6,000 Baht per months. This is only possible because he stays with his parents and has no expenses for rent. Still, buying petrol is a problem. That boy will come by car to see my friend.

From my own experience, there is the boy whom I met in Babylon Sauna in September and have been seeing almost weekly. It took me some weeks to figure out that he does not sell shirts at the night market Dalat Klong Lot, but is a regular at Saranrom park. His English is very limited, we communicate in Thai only. Two weeks ago, he became an employee of Hotmale in Soi Twilight. Quite an upgrade! I went there to off him (400 Baht off fee, 1500 tip; expensive, but I had told him the week before that we could meet again next week and called that night to ask where he is, so it would have been rude not to go). Two days ago, we met again and he told me he left Hotmale because I was his only customer in seven days of working there. 500 Baht every day is better than 1500 Baht once per week? I told him about Classic Boys, where he would fit in better than Hotmale. But lack of English must a huge problem in any bar.

I think we are overestimating the extense of the Farang oriented gay prostitution scene. Let's assume there are 5000 (my estimation) boys working in Farang oriented gay bars (gogo or host) in entire Thailand, and each of them has 10 friends who know about their work, that makes 5000 boys with first hand experience and 50,000 who know second hand. If we assume that there are 10 million Thai males age 20 to 30, that means 1 out of 200 has a friend who works in the scene.

There is not a boy in every village who knows someone who works in a bar!

[Sooty]

I met several gay Thais who would be a good intellectual match for me ...I'd have thought Thailand must be brimming with guys who meet that onerous criterion.

[Pattayamale]

This from THE NATION newspaper Dec 17, 2013

"Small and mid-size automobile businesses in Thailand are locked in an escalating battle for workers with big carmakers.
"Toyota is an important customer, but itтАЩs poaching workers from us with generous bonuses," said the manager of a small Japanese autoparts supplier in Thailand, after a college graduate the company had trained left the job after only a year to join a local Toyota affiliate.

Toyota Motor Thailand stunned the industry this year by offering annual bonuses of roughly 10 monthsтАЩ pay to its labour union.

The unionтАЩs position was fortified by the booming home market. The Thai governmentтАЩs two-year tax relief programme for first-time car buyers drove new-vehicle sales in the country to an all-time high in 2012. This kept Japanese automakers, which account for more than 90 per cent of the market, running their local factories at full capacity towards the first half of the year.

Following in ToyotaтАЩs footsteps, other carmakers and auto-part suppliers offered similar bonuses. This encouraged workers at smaller Japanese auto-part makers to jump ship to Toyota and other firms."

These are great opportunities for those that like this kind of work. As many here know, the auto industry UNIONS in America sure helped start the large middle class there too....which has been fading for several years now.

[ddsfo]

Most Tai Yai bar boys I've talked to were introduced to the bar through their friends and social connections
I agree with this being a common process. what i meant was that it is more likely for the boy to stay at a particular bar if he fits in well with the larger boy crowd at that bar. given the social shan network operating here in chiang mai, i wonder if each bar tends to only have boys from a particular gang working there.

[Yraen]

As a regular visitor to Thailand over the last 2 decades, I too have been invited to the non-gay "gay sanook" bars in Bangkok. As BonTong noted, most gay boys go out with their friends, male and female, gay and straight, and have a fun night out drinking and dancing at their table. The only negative for me was the incredibly low stool on which I had to sit - not being Thai, my legs were always in the way. :)

BonTong, I have read your article about CM twice now and you may find some resonance in this YouTube 'movie'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHgS7IG9n8Q While it is pertinent today, it has its roots in the Sydney Gay Games 2002.
Enjoy.

[adman5000]

Christian said:
I think we are overestimating the extent of the Farang oriented gay prostitution scene. Let's assume there are 5000 (my estimation) boys working in Farang oriented gay bars (gogo or host) in entire Thailand

Christian, is this a statistical extrapolation from your sampling/census?

Also- what is included in the gay prostitution scene you refer to?
Do you include massage and spa places? (how many guys on thaimassageboy website?
Do you include Gayromeo and similar sites?
Do you include freelancers at parks, saunas, DJ stations, Jomtien beach and similar?

If I use your strict definition of listed go-go and host bars - you could count how many such places are on Dreaded Ned or similar(probably some not listed). Appear to be about 60+ just in BKK. You could do similar for CM, Pattaya, Phuket, etc.

I would be curious what type of totals you feel the total scene exposure is for Farang.

[christianpfc]

Adman500, you have a point, I raise my estimation to 10,000 Thai boys working in the gay prostitution scene aimed at Farang.

That would be in (order of decreasing number) Pattaya, Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Phuket. (I've never been to Phuket, and to Chiang Mai only three times, but from reading I know the scene there is much smaller than Bangkok and Pattaya. In other towns more or less absent, there might be a few bars in Hua Hin and a bar or two in entire Esaan.)

Bangkok: Soi Twilight and vicinity maybe 1000 boys working in gogo and beer bar (out of these only 500 present, others holiday, day off, absent for other reasons), let's assume another 2000 on gayromeo (and other online dating sites and apps), and 1000 massage boys in entire Bangkok

sauna: I never witnessed any form of prostitution in saunas, not even hints
DJ station, soi 4: there might be up to 50 boys, negligible
freelancers (park and street trade): negligible (Saranrom is not aimed at Farang, I have never seen another Farang there looking for boys)

Pattaya: gogo bars 1000, beer bars 1000, gayromeo 3000, beach negligible

Chiang Mai: 500

Phuket: 500

That makes 10,000

The criterion is if a boy is so much involved into prostitution for Farang that he makes a significant part of his living on it, and that he would tell his friends about it.

[Smiles]

" ... The criterion is if a boy is so much involved into prostitution for Farang that he makes a significant part of his living on it, and that he would tell his friends about it ... "
I think you assume too much.

Say what you want, but there is indeed a 'stigma' in village life regarding working in gogo bars or just general prostitution.
The stigma has not at all much to do with being in the 'gay' area of that, but being in that area at all. I am aware of many young Thai guys who are shipped off to Bangkok or Pattaya (et al) ~ or ship themselves off ~ who would never in million years let the folks (and by that I mean family as well as friends) back home in on where they work. They'll say "cooking in a restaurant" or "waiting tables" or "working in a factory" or "at the mall" etc etc ... or just be hopefully vague ~ they can get away with that if they send enough money back home to Mom.
But actually spouting out to the family that they work selling their bodies ... not so much. Thai (Isaan especially) family's have a reasonably high tolerance of the news that their kid is gay, but in general I doubt that tolerance would extend all the way to prostitution.

A Thai guy working in a GoGo Bar would be only very rarely be point of discussion in the village (even with 'best friends). The odds of family members losing face because of his honesty would be just too much to bear.

[scottish-guy]

.... I never witnessed any form of prostitution in saunas....

:-o

You're joking, right?

[lego]

newalaan2, thanks for starting this thread & for your very interesting posts!

I live in Bangkok and most of my Thai friends have decent (with regards to both reputation and salary) jobs. However, most of them are incredibly bad with managing money, and/or have to support their families, so I think a big part of the overall increase in salaries over the last years has been eaten up by inflation and higher debt.

Those of my friends who are originally from Bangkok are typically sort of mollycoddled: They had the option to study at university, they could (or still can) live with their parents without having to pay rent, it's usually their family that supports them instead of the other way round. On the other hand, those of my friends who moved to Bangkok to work, originally from Isaan or other parts of Thailand, are much different, they got their decent jobs they have now by hard work for many years, and most of their earnings have been sent home. That shows in many ways.

I'm not that old yet and I hadn't visited Thailand before "online hookups" became popular here. So it only seems natural to me that many of the younger generations of Thais who want to earn some (extra) cash by working as prostitutes use GayRomeo and the likes instead of working at a bar or massage shop. I think having a "presentable" full-time job and doing some freelance work also has some advantages as far as having to tell friends and family back home what they're doing is concerned.

[adman5000]

I agree with the comments by Smiles and Lego.

Christian- I think your adjusted number is closer to my guesstimate.

I usually misjudge or underestimate the "face" aspect. So I am sure in most instances the guys lead a bit of a secret life in regards to families. But I also think there is a level of silent acceptance by the parents as long as the money comes in. I know the pressure on sons by the mothers to bring in money to the family is significant.

[colmx]

Pattaya: gogo bars 1000, beer bars 1000, gayromeo 3000, beach negligible

...

That makes 10,000



Of the 3000 on GR - surely the Gogo, beer bar boys are a subset of that 3000 population?

So in actuality that 5000 becomes 3000?

i.e. there are 3000 GR boys, 2000 of whom work in some sort or bar or gay massage venue?

[christianpfc]

.... I never witnessed any form of prostitution in saunas....
You're joking, right?

No. I have seen boys who are moneyboys in saunas, mostly in company of a Farang. He might pay them for company, but they probably met outside. I remember only one case of a boy who is a moneyboys who was not attached and who seemed to be available.

Anyway, saunas have non-prostitution policy. So I maintain my point: there is no prostitution Thai/Farang going on in saunas, or the extent is so small that it's negligible. If you have observations to the contrary, please share.

Colmx, there is an overlap between gayromeo boys and boys who work in fixed location, but it doesn't matter for the overall estimation if there are 1000 boys more or less. But you are probably correct that there are far less than 3000 boys in Pattaya who work entirely on gayromeo.

Smiles, how they know in Isaan about bars in Bangkok and Pattaya? Clearly, nobody gets the idea out of the blue that there might be places where they can dance in underwear for a Farang audience and make more money in a night than working a week in their hometown. There must be rumors, or they know someone who knows someone.

My corrected estimation is that 1 out of 100 boys age 20-30 knows someone who works in a bar or massage and can ask for details if he is interested. Working in a bar is a niche market, like playing in an orchestra in Europe to make a living. It's just not on the table as a possible area of work for the vast majority of Thai boys.

[BonTong]

Chiang Mai: 500
...
The criterion is if a boy is so much involved into prostitution for Farang that he makes a significant part of his living on it, and that he would tell his friends about it.
As far as Chiang Mai is concerned the criteria: тАЬprostitution for FarangтАЭ knocks the numbers down considerably.

Karaoke: maybe 100-150 guys, nearly all Shan with a few hilltribe guys. Clientele is almost exclusively Thai so these donтАЩt really count.

Go-go: Four bars, maybe 30-50 boys per bar, including those who donтАЩt show up every night. Almost exclusively Shan, total perhaps 160. Clientele depends on the bar (AdamтАЩs and Free Guy have more Farang, New My Way and Circle, more Thai/Asian)

Massage: 17 Shops promoted to Farangs, maybe 10 boys each and 50% Thai, 50% Hill tribe other. Total 170. There are other massage places, and Karaoke that arenтАЩt visible to Farangs, but they donтАЩt meet the criteria (we wonтАЩt go into the age and ethnicity of the guys who work there).

Freelancers and street kids: Night Bazaar/Thapae Gate/Muang Mai/Santitham/Kamtieng/Arcade etc тАУ Who knows as they come and go and arenтАЩt the same every night. But only the Night Bazaar is really тАЬprostitution for FarangтАЭ. Maybe 5-15 guys there most nights, perhaps a pool of not more than 40 in total, (most of whom are hilltribe). Very few ethnic Thais.

As to gay Gay Romeo etc тАУ Personally I donтАЩt use it, but from friends I get the impression there are hundreds of Thai boys on here in CM, but IтАЩm not sure how many would class as making a living from it. I suspect only a few tens of guys, but I may be wrong. The rest just do it for pocket money.

Another group is those who go to the big clubs and collect FarangтАЩs phone numbers, some just want sex, others are looking for a donation or sponsor. Lots of these guys in Chiang Mai but very hard to quantify how many. However, most only do this for pocket money so again they donтАЩt count and arenтАЩt working visibly as prostitutes. Similarly, many gay boys are the Mia Noi for older/wealthier Thai sponsors (often supposedly straight).

So, in terms of ethnic Thai guys fitting ChristianтАЩs criteria in Chiang Mai, its only perhaps 50% of the prostitutes working in massage and a few on Gay Romeo, perhaps a total of only about 150 ethnic Thai, and maybe 250 Shan and Hill tribe.

Of course, the most successful prostitutes are the young тАЬtrophy boyтАЭ boyfriends who live with old Farang sponsors whilst waiting for the inheritance. There are quite a few of these in Chiang Mai, perhaps even a few hundred as a lot of these guys donтАЩt go to gay places so arenтАЩt visible.

[lego]

Smiles, how they know in Isaan about bars in Bangkok and Pattaya? Clearly, nobody gets the idea out of the blue that there might be places where they can dance in underwear for a Farang audience and make more money in a night than working a week in their hometown. There must be rumors, or they know someone who knows someone.
Believe it or not, sometimes police raids of Pattaya bars make the Thai mainstream TV news. These bars aren't always gay bars, of course, but I think nowadays most people in Isaan have a pretty good idea of what's going on in Pattaya (thanks to TV, newspapers, YouTube clips, gossip, ...).

[dab69]

christianpfc wrote:
"nobody gets the idea out of the blue that there might be places where they can dance in underwear"



I have read of such places.
this is dispicable.
off with their underwear at once!

[newalaan2]

UPDATE/FOLLOW UP.

Didn't realise this original thread was as far back as Dec 2013, so now it's almost 4 years on. I was going to update this thread a couple years ago, but like many other previously frequent SGT contributors just lost the enthusiasm for the forum under surfcrest.I realise many who read the original post probably won't be here now, so apologies for resurrecting such and old one but I know one or two might still be here and even may remember it or be interested to know how things worked out for the boys in question. Also on my most recent trip we met up as usual with the two lads from the original post (as we always do) but recent events had landed one of the lads with a happy ending, so to speak...so I thought maybe a good time to update their lives from those Navanakorn days.

One of the 3 lads from the original post did head to Korea not long after I made it and remained working there for about 2 years before heading back to Issan to open a coffee shop style cafee in Kalasin. So that worked out ok for him. The other main two lads in the post worked away in Navanakorn for about another 18 months or so. I can't use their real names/nicknames as since they finally made the move to Pattaya may be known to members here. So we'll name them JayD and Vee.

After about 2 years in total of the factory treadmill in Navanakorn with occassional tasting of the delights in Pattaya through rare visits there when my bf and I came for hols and took them along, both JayD and Vee thought the time was right for a change and dedcied to have a go at the find-a-boyfriend route, in Vee's case preferrebly a farang one. JayD had tried his hand at Bkk barwork for a month before going to Navanakorn but didn't take to it. With these rare visits to Pattaya and keeping up with friends who worked there, Vee (who had never tried bar work) especially was keen to try and find a foreign boyfriend. Even though he had little English he has a great personality which would hopefully see him through the tricky Pattaya terrain. Vee always found farang genuinely attractive and always tried to connect with foreigners who worked mostly as management in the Navanakorn factories. Unfortunately for him he found all he encountered were more interested in the female gender, so he decided to head to where there might be an abundance of gay male foreigners....Pattaya!

Apart from those rare visits with us to Pattaya, there was all the gossip/info coming in from all the other gay lads from their home villages/town already working there, so digs/lodgings, support, help etc.. were already in place so getting settled would be no problem. Neither liked the idea of working as Gogo boys though. So either find a 'normal' job in 7-11 or the like, or find work in the bars as waiter/cashier etc. JayD found that waiter/barker and some part-time DJing suited his skill sets and Vee was willing to try the waiting game. In every part of Issan everybody knows Pattaya is where a gay lad can 'catch a break' and what it's all about. There is a very large gay social network around my bfs villages and nearest town with all types of people within that large circle from HiSo, government workers to farm workers and those in 'ordinary' work and those who have made their way to Pattaya/Bkk to search out 'opportunities'. They all kinda mix, certainly are all connected through facebook so there little going on that is not public knowledge between them, but the lads who have decided not to venture to Pattaya are not critical of the lads who do work the scene, in fact there are some 'wish they could' but for family or some other reason can't/won't. It certainly isn't a negative thing in their world. Family, non-gay or general Issan folks might well have a different view though.

The other main reason for having a try in Pattaya was the chance to immerse themselves in a gay lifestyle away from the home gossip, prying eyes and interference. The liasans with customers are but a small part of many of the lives of gay lads on the Pattaya gay-pay scene. Hanging out with friends enjoying a pressure-from-family free lifestyle socialising at clubs, bars, food-buffets is also a big attraction, I mean they are young and life passes very quickly as we all know. If they can carve out a lifestyle which suits them and at the same time manage to contribute to family funds...all's good. Also around the time of making the decision Vee had a major change in family circumstances back home which made taking a decision to change track easier.

Thus Vee joined the staff at BzBzBz Boyztown as a waiter, JayD joined as outside barker/waiter with occasional DJing in the area. Vee found the going hard at first due to his lack of English skills, but being bright managed to get by and pick up what he needed to know quite quickly. What surprised him the most was the number of customers who were not native English speakers, I think he expected them all to come from UK/USA with a few english speaking Germans for some reason, but found many from France, Italy, former Eastern Bloc and Asian, so not only had he to contend with his poor English he had to try to get to grips with all these other damned foreign languages! Being a very likeable lad and popular with his peers helped immensely as other's happily assisted him gain an understanding of various nationalities.

At this stage I will say I know a lot of the goings-on in BBB, while it was a place I never took to when the Scottish bosses were in charge I still knew some of the senior staff there through other avenues, even the current version hold little interest for me. But I know the 'management' through friends of bf from home villages/town of which there are 'levels' best described as many chiefs and few Indians, however both Vee and JayD got to be in with the furnishings there and so as close friends with bf and myself we are treated very well when we do visit, free bottles of whisky at Birthdays and special prices at all other times, but because I know so many there tend not to visit often and never alone only with bf, so for that reason I am trying not to give too much away with the 'insider stuff' but still keep it factual without landing somebody in trouble...me for instance!

Anyway, JayD made very quick progress, he is a hard working lad, very sincere and dedicated. Can turn his hand to anything really. Good communicator so did well outside BBB helping to get the punters in. Also multi-tasks around BBB, decent English and trustworthy. For Vee it was a slower, steady-as-you-go progress, once he mastered the butchered English that most Europeans use he found he earned well just on tips and drinks alone and got used to the very occasional off which suited him as he could pick and choose, which he did. When he did get an off he seemed to get on well with customers and did best with returning regular westerners/repeats. It was great visiting every 3 months and noting his progress especially on the language front. While I have always had enough very basic Thai to communicate with him over the years especially as he got used to my butchered style of Thai/Issan it certainly helped further as he picked up English phrases and words.

Eventually after a couple of close-calls, he did finally meet a lovely farang bf. A youngish good looking guy and they seem very well suited. I have know Vee since he was 15 back in the bfs village and when speaking with his farang bf find him describing exactly the Vee as I've always known him to be, so it seems Pattaya didn't manage to change him dramatically, he deserves and nice partner and I think his farang bf is fortunate too as Vee is not the cynical money-grabbing type and like JayD is very trustworthy. Just before our last visit, in mid-Sept his farang bf took him out if the bar to be full-time bfs....the happy ending I mentioned earlier. After we left he was due to visit his bfs home country, his very first trip outside Thailand borders. JayD is also very content with his lot and his role at BBB as he enjoys all the different/various challenges which come along with working in the bars. Having an incredibly laid back attitude too has really served him well.

As I say I've had to be careful about what info I revealed as they are real people not just a fiction story, but I also just wanted to update the journey of these two gay Issan lads and the options open to them as they progress through life to their current situations. They arrived in Pattaya only after trying the other routes, working at home back in Issan, then at least giving the 12-hour shift factory work in Navanakorn a go for 2 years before deciding to try the route many make a bee-line for without trying something else first. Both seem very content with how things have turned out for them.........so far!

[joe552]

A really interesting post, newalaan, thanks for taking the time.

[cdnmatt]

It 100% depends on their willingness to learn, and unfortunately, from my experience at least, many from the poor villages just don't see the value in education. How is that going to help me catch fish, or build a home, or her buffalo? Type of thing...

If they have a willingness to learn, then they're capable of anything they want. One option many of them choose is getting hooked up with a farang who takes care of them.

One thing I can say is Kim started up about 6 small business ventures during my time with him. Without question, the best was selling "neua yang" (raw Thai BBQ / jao-awwn) meat at the local markets. Long 14 hour days, as you're up at 6am to head off to the butcher and markets to get everything. Then all morning and early afternoon at home cutting everything up, and bagging it all, making the nam-jim, broth, etc. After that, it's selling at a couple different markets throughout the day. However, after expenses, it would probably bring in about 25,000 baht profit every month.

That one was by far the best. Cost about 20,000 baht in total to start up, which included the purchase of an old, second hand motorcycle with side cart, ice chest, tables, and everything else.

[latintopxxx]

newlaan always a pleasure reading your input, easy reading, like travel magazine. As is well known I rarely interact with money boys, to me its all about the sex....however on one occasion I engaged what I thought was a fit lad in his 20's only to have someone clearly in his mid thirties show up. My initial reaction was to tell him that the deal was off as his face pic clearly didnt match the adverised goods.
He turned out to be quite a cheeky fellow, lifted up his t-shirt to show a washboard stomach and said that he had a good body, si after negotiating an age discount I fucked him..the sex was great...really great..he was very enthusuastic.
Afterwards he much to my annoyance got very chatty...for some reason I couldnt ignore him..must have caught me in a weak moment..wanted to know about me, where I was from, was I gay (LOL), did my parents know, what I did for a job, why I liked Thailand.
We had a really good conversation, his english was good, turns out he was straight, from Isaan, had an affair, divorced, had 2 kids, lost a factory job, went through several regular BHT10,000/month jobs ...was introduced to whoring by a younger cousin and has never looked back since as he claimed to be making minimum 30,000/month.Supports his kids who live with his mum and is paying off a piece of land he bought back in his village where he intends living once he's too old.
I asked him what it was like as a straight guy to bottom..he was really good at it...he laughed and said ..practice..didnt particularly enjoy it, gave him no pleasure as witnessed by the fact he didnt get an erection..it was a job.
He didnt identify as gay, didnt mix with gays, never had sex with Thais only with foreigners, liked Taiwanese and japanese as they paid more, apart from his cousin nobody knows what he does for a job, he wasnt proud...it was the easiest way to make a living, but he certainly seemed to be thinking about his post MB future.
Longest in depth chat I've had with a MB.

[joe552]

latin, that's the most interesting post of yours I've ever read,

[latintopxxx]

yes, occasionally I do interact with the locals, must admit I thought he was softening me up with some sob story for some extra cash...but no, he just wanted to chat..I rather enjoyed it and liked the fact he wasnt the usual stooopid big hair do young dumb full of cum MB who spends his cash as fast as he gets it...he actually had a plan

[neddy3]

Well done, Latin. A good post.

I think that you should try interacting with the locals a bit more often.
We might even find your humanity.

[arsenal]

All my offs are like that Latin. Be careful, enjoying their company as well as their bodies can become seriously moreish. And very very few of them make these stories up. It's just two people having a nice conversation about our respective lives.

[latintopxxx]

...now dont think Im getting all soft and nice...this was a one off....it appeals to me to think of them as being there just to give me pleasure...

[latintopxxx]

..amd neddy..i do have humanity..I actually give to charity...not the save the fucking whales types..but real ones..

[bobsaigon2]

Some good posts, make me wish I could revisit and rekindle contacts I had with guys who were pleasant and entertaining, not only when we were in bed together.

[latintopxxx]

why dont u?? with facebook and grindr and line and whatsapp to name a few its free and easy...I have a fairly large circle of aquiantances and we often plan stuff on whatsapp or facebook....one will start off with an invite like..Im off on a " pussy pounding holiday in Pattaya" ..who's in??"

[bobsaigon2]

why dont u?? with facebook and grindr and line and whatsapp to name a few its free and easy..."

Because, Latin, I am 77 f*cking years old and health issues prevent me from travelling. :)

[latintopxxx]

oh...reinforces my mantra.." fuck 'till u drop"...

[dinagam]

[QUOTE=latin..however on one occasion I engaged what I thought was a fit lad in his 20's only to have someone clearly in his mid thirties show up. My initial reaction was to tell him that the deal was off as his face pic clearly didnt match the adverised goods.
He turned out to be quite a cheeky fellow, lifted up his t-shirt to show a washboard stomach and said that he had a good body, si after negotiating an age discount I fucked him..[/QUOTE]

I bet the man was equally generous with his own discount for older clients.

[christianpfc]

Thanks for the update.

Neither liked the idea of working as Gogo boys though. So either find a 'normal' job in 7-11 or the like, or find work in the bars as waiter/cashier etc.

But I know the 'management' through friends of bf from home villages/town of which there are 'levels' best described as many chiefs and few Indians...

That once again confirms my observations, everyone wants a piece of the cake, but nobody wants to get on the stage in underwear, hence there is an excessive number of staff in gogo bars.

[Oliver]

i believe that this is the most interesting series of posts I've ever read on the forum. Thanks to everyone.

[latintopxxx]

christian...thats why I refuse to tip those damn mamasans and waitstaff in gogo bars...only one that gets tips are the gogos.
Dinagam...funny!?

[arsenal]

I've never quite worked out why go go bars have so many non go go boy staff. Inefficient.

[scottish-guy]

Someone has to wipe up the jizz

[latintopxxx]

arsetroll...u do realise that just about all the staff are offable??? dont u??
scotty...u been watching too many cum shows...and they are probably there to mop up the drool from all the geriatrics

[latintopxxx]

..anyway...as usual we have done a huge detour and gone totally off road where this topic is concerned. In reality the main reason that the vast majority of these guys enter prostitution is because of the money...the easy money...most are as lazy as can be and are happy to sell their bodies and self respect as it pays more than a 7-11 employee and heavens forbid sure as hell a lot easier than working on a construction site.
Question to be asked is why do they find themselves in this situation...why the lack of schooling, opportunities, why is their best asset their bodies??
And before we wonder..its not unique to Thailand..world is awash with guys attracted to whoring by the lack of opportunities elsewhere...

[latintopxxx]

Maybe I've not been asking all the right questions but one difference I've just realised between Thailand and a place like Brazil is that lots of MB in Brazil are part time, usually available after hours or on weekends, most tend to have low paid regular jobs that serve as their baseline income....the MB jig is usually a sweetener.

[joe552]

Jeez, here I am agreeing with latintop again (don't worry, lads, I have doctor's appointment scheduled) The boys I've been with over the years (nowhere near as many as latin, I suspect) all had that same attitude. Do the prostitution thing for 10 years, then when you reach 30 move on. The sensible ones (there must have been some) actually saved some money, and maybe started their own little business. But I suspect the majority pissed it up against the wall and reached their 30s with nothing to show for it. What they ended up doing, I've no idea.

I asked my oldest of the 2 friends I''ve been talking about what he did for work, and his reply was "food". Does he work in a factory, restaurant, kitchen. Has he perchance become the food critic for the Bangkok Post. These are the hard questions I intend to put to him in January.

Anyway, latin. I'm going to disagree with your next post, whatever it is, 'cos all this agreeing is making me uncomfortable.

Just a quick mention of the guy I've been talking about who's hoping to go to Morocco - when I was last there, he worked in an internet cafe. Now he teaches massage. He has ambition. I've no doubt he slept with men for money, does that make him a money boy? Not in my eyes. There's something to ponder, lads.

[latintopxxx]

on same subject but going way back have just started reading " A class apart-The private pictures of Montague Glover".....how I wish I lived in 19th century England..

[joe552]

Oh come on, latin, nobody is going to believe you actually read books! So you want to live in the 19th century? Two words - Oscar Wilde

[RonanTheBarbarian]

I remember that Montague Glover book, and from what I recall, it was mostly pictures, so I believe Latin may be actually reading (wanking over) it.

If I remember rightly old Montague was a rather posh English guy who took loads of pictures of his labourer boyfriend wearing tight trousers with an obvious bulge...a lovely little book, really!

[joe552]

Haha, that sounds more like it Ronan

[latintopxxx]

I was going to point out that as outlined in that very fine book that a large driver of rent boy trade was driven by economic needs, so the situation obviously is not limited to Thailand. As Thailand slowly creeps up the economic ladder the MB sex trade will slowly diminish.
Same situation is encountered world wide, vast majority of MB are driven by lack of regular opportunities.

[joe552]

I hate it when you make sense, latin

[arsenal]

It seems to me that there is actually no shortage of boys to work in the bars. Looking at the new bars that have opened recently such as Winner Boys, New Cupidol, 360' Degree Bar, Prisma all of them have been able to find plenty of boys to work there both straight and gay. It's only the lack of customers that means the supply dwindles down. If they were full of customers they'd be bursting at the seams with boys. Take Prisma, Toy Boys and Scandic all together and you've got over 60 available boys just from those three places.

[kkjason]

It seems to me that there is actually no shortage of boys to work in the bars. Looking at the new bars that have opened recently such as Winner Boys, New Cupidol, 360' Degree Bar, Prisma all of them have been able to find plenty of boys to work there both straight and gay. It's only the lack of customers that means the supply dwindles down. If they were full of customers they'd be bursting at the seams with boys. Take Prisma, Toy Boys and Scandic all together and you've got over 60 available boys just from those three places.

This is very true. The money, if you can command it, is still quite good. It still amazes that some of the boys working in Family Mart or 7-11 make roughly 40 baht an hour. And those guys work their ass off. It must be difficult to hear from their friends who spend the night drinking, on our dime, and get paid for it at the same time. Just one off a week would net them more money than they would make in an ordinary week somewhere else. Now, let's also talk reality - The bar scene is not for everyone, nor should it be. I have lived in Northeastern Thailand since 2008. I love the laid back life here. You don't need much here to be comfortable beyond your wildest dreams. Many of these boys live very simple lives - and they love it. They don't need more than a few hundred a baht to not only survive, but thrive in their village. As the OP has stated, there are loads of opportunities springing up all around the Northeast. While it does not net the possible thousands of baht one can make on a good night in Bangkok or Pattaya, many of these boys no longer want it.

I really think the lure of the big city is slowly giving way. I remember in 2008, when I went to my now husband's home in the village, we could barely get a signal with AIS. No other mobile service would even work out there. Today, we have Fiber Optic Internet out there that is actually faster than at our home in Khon Kaen - go figure. I guess what I am trying to say is that times are really changing in Thailand and the boys are realizing that they no longer need the bar scene to be happy. I am happy to see that. Hope it all makes sense - Perhaps I'll start posting more - I sure enjoy the new 'feel' to reading the posts now being made by civil people who love this country - Good on you all!

[Oliver]

Don't forget the pleasure the working guys derive from their friendship groups. It's not unusual for a group to arrive together in Pattaya as old friends from school, or the village or even as family members. There is a sense of camaraderie amongst them; a guy who has a successful night will treat his friends to dinner, or help with the rent. They will sometimes share a room, particularly in their early days, and enjoy social activities together.
Retired guys will speak of the pleasure it gave them to be in groups-particularly gay ones- after a degree of isolation at home. And of course, Pattaya, with all its faults, was an thrilling, vibrant environment for those coming from a small village in Isaan.

[a447]

I think you're spot on, Oliver.

My Pattaya regular moved there with his brother and a group of friends from the same town. They all work in the sex business, share rooms and hang out together. And they look after each other, sharing offs amongst themselves - "Can you take my brother instead? He hasn't had a farang this week" - and, of course, help each other out when times are tough.

And they also work at the same bar. When one changes, the others follow.

[bobsaigon2]

Jason, You appear to be a perfectly pleasant, rational, intelligent individual with no grudges to bear. Your posts will be much in demand on SGT.

[arsenal]

Hi KKJason. Welcome to the board. Living in KK with your partner from a small Thai village and loving the simple life means you've already got quite a lot in common with CDMatt. It will cerainly be interesting to compare the different viewpoints on what is essentially the same ifestyle.

[latintopxxx]

kkjason...not sure i agree with your statement that the country boys thrive in the quiet village....i suspect having access to the internet heightens their awareness that the world beyond the village is a lot brighter.
They also see nice brick houses with proper roofs being built around them and want the same...and the quickest way a boy with limited prospects can make fast money is peddling his body..
And here I have to agree with u...it really does amaze me when I find a handsome specimen behind a family mart counter working for slave wages..a 3 hour romp on my dick would be the equivalent of 3 days wages..
Thailand still has a long way before the country side catches up and becomes truly middle class.
Another country that Im fast becomong afan of is Brazil..and Im not talking about the mega cities like Rio and Sao Paulo..its the reginal towns of up to 2 million people....grinding poverty drives many into whoring..all colours and types available..

[Oliver]

A 447 reminds me that in my my early days in Pattaya I was sometimes asked by dancers to take one of the guys who hadn't been offed for a long time. In one case, he was someone who, I was told, would lose his job if he didn't find a falang. To my eternal shame, I didn't. I've felt bad about it for twenty years.

[a447]

So, what happened? Am I to presume that he lost his job?

[Nirish guy]

I've felt bad about it for twenty years.

WHY !? Not your fault that he wasn't very good or popular at his job - if I was crap at my job for whatever reason I wouldn't get a pass, I dont see why a Thai guy should be any different and if you didn't fancy him enough to off him that's not exactly your fault either.

To feel bad about that for 20 years is to me crazy - plus it was of course probably all just bullshit anyway and if you went back there the next week you would I'm sure have found him still working away.

For all you know if it WAS true that perhaps you actually did the guy a favour, as maybe his heart wasn't in the work hence why no offs and IF so he lost his job because of that non off then maybe he went back to work elsewhere, is much more happy today because of that and is in fact thanking you for that for all you know.

Either way I'm betting that 20 years later HE still doesn't feel bad about it (or even remember it or care).

[Oliver]

OK...I'll add something that I was too embarrassed to mention earlier; the guy was deaf and the dancers told me that this made it difficult for him to attract falangs. It was my first or second visit and and I was, at that time, too enthralled by what was on offer to think beyond my desires. And yes, Nirish, I've told myself that I may have done him a favour; for one thing, he may have been saved from hiv.
Nevertheless, if you know your TS Eliot, you may remember the phrase "to do the right thing for the wrong reason" in Murder in the Cathedral. If I did him a favour , it's because I fancied someone else more than him.
A 447....I don't know. This happened at Cockpit (old-timers will remember it with affection) and I don't recall returning that visit.

[arsenal]

Deaf or not makes no difference Oliver. You didn't fancy him and that's the end of it. I offed a boy from xxxxxxxx and he only had one eye, the other was glass. I offed him because I fancied him, had I not I wouldn't. "I can do anything anyone else can do" he told me indignantly when I asked him about the difficulties of riding a motorbike with only one eye.

[cdnmatt]

Oliver, don't worry about it at all. Being deaf is his "normal", so I'm sure he just shrugged it off, and kept pushing forward in life.

Fun fact: Disabled people don't like being treated like they're disabled.

[latintopxxx]

the things people worry about..and for 20 years too...oliver u should have done a latin and taken advantage of the situation...seen the silver lining as they say...negotiated a rock bottom price...remember he needed it more than u..

[latintopxxx]

..and nirish..Im shocked..shocked i say at your callousness...wheres your humanity..

[gerefan2]

the things people worry about..and for 20 years too...oliver u should have done a latin and taken advantage of the situation...seen the silver lining as they say...negotiated a rock bottom price...remember he needed it more than u..

Latin, you need a triple C.

[joe552]

Oliver, it doesn't sound like your decision not to off him was because he was deaf, but simply that you found another boy more attractive. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't think I'd mind offing a deaf boy. I don't speak Thai, and many of the boys I've been with have minimal English, but then, I'm not offing them for their conversation. So if I found the boy attractive, I don't have a problem. Presumably he could communicate with at least one of the other boys, so you may have missed the opportunity for a 3some.

gerefan, what' a triple C?

[gerefan2]

A triple C is a Character Conversion Course. Latin should enrol on one after that last post of his.

[Nirish guy]

Fun fact: Disabled people don't like being treated like they're disabled.

And yet some people never stop going on about their alleged disability, strange that.

[joe552]

NIrish, my mother taught us you should never make fun of the afflicted.

[scottish-guy]

"Don't mock the afflicted"?

Are you sure you're not getting your mother mixed up with Frankie Howerd?

:D

[latintopxxx]

dunno..gerefan..MB is deaf...cant hear my instructions...and he's scream ugly (must have been if even oliver turned him down)...think thats room for negotiation...afterall he's not exactly a young Brad Pitt look alike...now is he?? or do u offer to pay the same for a toyota corolla as u would for a lexus?? I know a rides a ride...but thats simply silly

[joe552]

"Don't mock the afflicted"?

Are you sure you're not getting your mother mixed up with Frankie Howerd?

:D

Sorry, SG, I don't understand that.

[cdnmatt]

dunno..gerefan..MB is deaf...cant hear my instructions...and he's scream ugly (must have been if even oliver turned him down)...think thats room for negotiation...afterall he's not exactly a young Brad Pitt look alike...now is he?? or do u offer to pay the same for a toyota corolla as u would for a lexus?? I know a rides a ride...but thats simply silly



Jesus christ latin, you probably would do that too, wouldn't you? Instead of paying far market value, take advantage of him instead. Stay classy...

Maybe you should get a job at a mental health facility, or something. You'd probably love it.

[scottish-guy]

Sorry, SG, I don't understand that.

"Oh no, don't mock, don't mock the afflicted" was one of Frankie Howerd's catchphrases

[latintopxxx]

matty...thast where u get all confused...he's deaf..not addled...hello!?! U do know the difference..especially as a so called blind person...
So I assume u r quite happy to order fillet mignon...get served rump steak..but still pay the fillet price!? Get real...

[kkjason]

Jason, You appear to be a perfectly pleasant, rational, intelligent individual with no grudges to bear. Your posts will be much in demand on SGT.

Well thank you - You are right - Life is too short to live with grudges. I made the move here to get out of the rat race in America more than ten years ago and haven't regretted that decision one bit - Thanks for the greeting -

[kkjason]

Hi KKJason. Welcome to the board. Living in KK with your partner from a small Thai village and loving the simple life means you've already got quite a lot in common with CDMatt. It will cerainly be interesting to compare the different viewpoints on what is essentially the same ifestyle.

Not sure about the thing in common bit - But life here sure here is different. Khon Kaen, of course, is no longer a small city. In fact, this place and Korat are beginning to provide a lot of good opportunities for young people. I don't think they really feel the need (many of them) to head to Bangkok when they come of age. We shall see if it continues - At some point, the bubble is likely to burst, but then we'll just have to see if it can rebound. I love being able, though, to get to my husband's village in just 90 minutes - now, that's a whole other world entirely.

[latintopxxx]

question for u KKJ, any gogo bars or MB in Khon Kaen?

[kkjason]

question for u KKJ, any gogo bars or MB in Khon Kaen?

Hey There Latin - Believe it or not, there are no gogo bars of any variety in KK - straight or gay. It seems that the local government has long had a policy against them, and it's worked to this point. There are places to hook up, and plenty of discos, but none that are exclusively gay. There is one disco that has one section that turns almost totally gay with hot young Thais after 11pm, but that's it. Sounds like a boring place - but I assure you - it's not. Just not any gogo bars.

Now to your money boy question - Yes - and loads of them. Khon Kaen university is here and is the largest university in Essan and I believe the 5th largest in Thailand. There are always young money boys looking to make some extra cash - They are not hard to find and they are eager to please. The level of English amongst that population is also surprisingly good, especially if you land a boy that is in the English program at KKU. A fun evening can be had out drinking and then back in bed - I'm not sure when they sleep, because they will probably end up at the disco after you say good night for the evening -

Hope that answers the question -

Cheers -

Jason

[latintopxxx]

ok, so that kinda answers my question..a country boy no longer has to decamp all the way to BKK, he can just take a 90 minute bus ride to the nearest largish town to fuck his way into retirement.

[scottish-guy]

Fucking one's way into retirement has always been my motto

:p

[francois]

latintop, you do have a way with words!

[MiniMee]

Sorry, SG, I dont understand that.


Oh no, dont mock, dont mock the afflicted was one of Frankie Howerds catchphrases

Since Scotty thinks it is somehow relevant today, on an international forum, to quote catch phrases by an obuscure British comic, born more than 100 years ago, we can at least begin to fathom why he thinks his rare comments on gay Thailand, based upon limited personal experience from a mere decade ago, have any relevance today either.

[scottish-guy]

Why you think it's been "a decade" since I was in Thailand requires not only explanation but an indication of the basis on which you make that claim.

As to the rest of my post - Joe asked the question, and in public - am I meant to ignore it?

[arsenal]

I would say that the large majority of my offs over the last 10 years and many visits documented here have had few options for life but they have nonetheless maintained an optimistic disposition. I am interested in other members experiences.

[joe552]

arsenal, I hope I'm reading your post correctly. You're saying that you don't expect to find a "life partner" in Thailand, but really enjoy the times you are there? Is that a fair summation?

In which case, I would agree with you. When I first started going, and met Kwan, and fell in love, I dreamed about living there full time one day. As has been teased out on another thread that's not an option. But I've had some amazing holidays, met some lovely guys and have great memories. I only had one bad time, and that was down to my drinking. But since then, it's been great, and I've missed it hugely over the last couple of years.

[arsenal]

Nothing about my post relates to my life Joe, just my experience with Thai boys and their life chances. As I said, I would be very interested to hear from other members, especially those who have been there regularly over the last decade as Thailand has changed considerably in that time.

[joe552]

Sorry arsenal, maybe I'm being a bit dim, but I don't see the distinction between your life and your experience with Thai boys. Surely the latter is part of the former? Not wanting to start another row, just confused.

[sglad]

Sorry arsenal, maybe I'm being a bit dim, but I don't see the distinction between your life and your experience with Thai boys. Surely the latter is part of the former? Not wanting to start another row, just confused.

I don't find it confusing. I suppose some people are quite efficient at physically and emotionally compartmentalising their lives especially if there's a part involving buying sex from men young enough to be their children or grandchildren. The very mention of Thailand might raise eyebrows back home. Some of these guys aren't out at home and only "gay it out" in Thailand and other faraway destinations. I'm not at all saying this applies to arsenal as I don't know and don't care about his private life but I have met a couple of guys like the ones I described in my almost-a-year here.

[joe552]

An interesting point, sglad, thanks.

[sglad]

he can just take a 90 minute bus ride to the nearest largish town to fuck his way into retirement.

...or into the retired, as the case may well be.

[latintopxxx]

arsenal..ALL MB have an option...unless they have been kidnapped and kept chained to a bed they are all free to leave and do something else...there are lots of menial low paying jobs (beach attendant, construction work...)that require minimal education...or they could just stay in the countryside and work the fields.
Reason they are whores is because its quick easy money..catapults the good ones into the middle class if they were clever enough to save/invest their earnings.
Even the crappy ugly ones would if they put minimal effort into it earn more than the minimum daily wage of bht300.
As for maintaining an optimistic outlook, most show up with a fake smile...they know they are there to get fucked by a random stranger..most as in vast majority are easily led...guess after being used by countless guys they are used to being told what to do..they have limited self respect...many show up high on something ....these can be lotsa fun... ..apologies if I burst someones bubble about true love or something...they are not lost innocent creatures...they have chosen this life...

[arsenal]

Latin. They have few options and one of those options is to be a mb. Despite the ungenerous deck of cards life dealt them they still have an optimistic manner. That's my point. Can't see how anyone can disagree with that.

[neddy3]

Agreed. The pleasant disposition of Thai boys who have few opportunities going for them is often very apparent. And welcome.

It makes a contrast to the Western culture.

[kittyboy]

WHY !? Not your fault that he wasn't very good or popular at his job - if I was crap at my job for whatever reason I wouldn't get a pass, I dont see why a Thai guy should be any different and if you didn't fancy him enough to off him that's not exactly your fault either.

To feel bad about that for 20 years is to me crazy - plus it was of course probably all just bullshit anyway and if you went back there the next week you would I'm sure have found him still working away.

For all you know if it WAS true that perhaps you actually did the guy a favour, as maybe his heart wasn't in the work hence why no offs and IF so he lost his job because of that non off then maybe he went back to work elsewhere, is much more happy today because of that and is in fact thanking you for that for all you know.

Either way I'm betting that 20 years later HE still doesn't feel bad about it (or even remember it or care).

I sometimes find posters responses interesting. This being one of those times. From my perspective it does not matter why the OP felt bad about not offing a deaf boy. Opinions about whether a person should or should not feel bad about not offing a deaf boy 20 years ago are opinions that reflect that posters opinions..and as like to say opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.

For me, what is interesting is what feeling bad about not offing a deaf boys tells us about the OP.
Maybe the OP seems themselves are a decent person who wants to help others...or does not want to harm others..was asked to help someone and did not. I do not know..I am guessing but it may be they see their actions as not consistent with the view they have of themselves and it is that inconsistency that bothers them.
Just a thought.

[Oliver]

I suppose I should clarify....it was twenty years ago and so my recollections are not infallible. I was in Cockpit. At some stage, a group of the dancers approached me and pointed out a friend (in whom I had not been interested) and told me that he needed an off that night or he'd lose his job. Would I please off him? i didn't fancy him and so I said no. It was later- perhaps much later- that I recalled the event and regretted it.
The issue was not his deafness but his impending unemployment; the disability was relevant in so far as it was pointed out that he was deaf and this made it more difficult attract customers.
I was reminded of what happened during thc course of the fascinating discussion of the life-chances and opportunities for working-class youngsters in Thailand.

[Brad the Impala]

I am guessing but it may be they see their actions as not consistent with the view they have of themselves and it is that inconsistency that bothers them.



I think that's a very good point, and looking at Oliver's posts that may well be the source of the regret. I can relate it to a couple of instances in my own life, that still niggle at me, where I could have done more to help someone, and in hindsight should have.

[scottish-guy]

I had a thing going with a deaf lad at home for about 6 months, decades ago.

I can't remember whether it was before or after the thing I had going with the 3 midgets, but gentle readers will be relieved to know it wasn't during.

He was profoundly deaf, with two enormous hearing aids, and poor speech - when I was a kid we'd have called him "deaf & dumb" but of course that's politically incorrect now.

His deafness caused few problems really and he lived in an apartment with two other young lads who were similarly afflicted.

[dinagam]

Did you try setting up a sound equaliser with a screen to project the graphics so that the deaf lads could have noted the pitch and intensity of the groans and moans in the room?

[joe552]

Coincidentally, I'm due to have a hearing test next week, and it's like I'll need a hearing aid.

[scottish-guy]

Did you try setting up a sound equaliser with a screen to project the graphics so that the deaf lads could have noted the pitch and intensity of the groans and moans in the room?

No it wasn't a gang-bang I was only involved with the one of them - don't let's exaggerate!!

[bobsaigon2]

Hope the hearing aid won't be necessary, Joe, but if it is, at least they are quite small these days.

I've an American friend who sometimes went with the boys to the discos. At first I couldn't understand how he could bear the noise. Then I realized that he couldn't hear a thing. He wears two hearing aids, easily removable at discos. Incredible lip reading skill he has.

[scottish-guy]

I always wear ear protection at discos in Thailand or Vietnam - of the type where the volume is clipped to a safe level, but speech can still be heard

I already have bilateral tinnitus and I don't need it made worse thanks to the unregulated sound pressure levels they operate at.

[Nirish guy]

I dont mind admiting that I AM currently sitting here in work wearing two small hearing aids and I KNOW for a fact that my time in thai discos and night clubs is at least partially responsible for that occurance ! I actually have very clear recollections of at least three incidents of my walking out of several Thai late night clubs with loud ringing in my ears that lasted for up to two days at a time and I'm reliably informed that THAT was a sure sign of hearing damage taking place.

On top of that and to add to the problem I also played in a cabaret music band for about 10 years and so spent many nights standing on a stage, way to close to amps and speakers etc, but I KNOW my hearing loss increased dramatically after numerous trips to Thailand and I became more and more aware of that after each and every trip.

Of course I HATE the idea of having ( or choosing) to wear any sort of visible hearing aid and whilst I dont necessarily "NEED" them i.e. I'm not totally "deaf", I cant deny that they're not useful or that I'm not "hard of hearing" sometimes and hate them or not they ARE bloody handy when perhaps in a business meeting and not wanting to sit struggling to hear every word or in a busy restaurant and not having to concentrate so intently on my dining companion that they begin to think that I'm falling in love with them as I'm staring at them so much :-).

So my advice to all ( as needing said hear aids came as a big shock to me) is yes defintely to wear ear plugs or the likes when in Thai clubs and to hell with what it looks like as once your hearing STARTS going, that's it, it's going and it's never coming back so be sure to take care of whatever hearing you have left !

PS for the record I do remove said hearing aids when out partying as I'd hate to ruin my good looks ( Joke!).On the [;us side ( if there is one) I also suffered from Tinitus and the aids seem to have reduced that somewhat, plus they also give me a GREAT excuse to TOTALLY ignore my BF whenever I feel like it as I "can't always hear him" ( when it suits me) - so, always a silver lining eh ! :)

[colmx]

they also give me a GREAT excuse to TOTALLY ignore my BF whenever I feel like it as I "can't always hear him" ( when it suits me)

Thai guys seem to be born with that same ability.... to completely not hear something when it suits them!

[bobsaigon2]

Thai guys seem to be born with that same ability.... to completely not hear something when it suits them!

That is true to some extent but in defense of any non-native speaker of any language, there is a certain minute adjustment of attention that is involved in receiving input from another language. And sometimes the adjustment is simply not available, not functioning until it has been brought to the attention of the non-native speaker.

And sometimes, he is just not very interested in hearing what we have to say. :))

[christianpfc]

...They have few options and one of those options is to be a mb. Despite the ungenerous deck of cards life dealt them they still have an optimistic manner. That's my point. Can't see how anyone can disagree with that.
I think the premise is wrong. There are job openings everywhere, hotel staff, cooks, servants, 7-Eleven, a Thai can find a job in 5 minutes if he wants, if he speaks English in 3 minutes. BUT it will be the minimum wage, which does not allow to buy the new Samsung, you will have to hook up with a Farang to get that.

There are millions [quotation needed] of SEAsian foreign workers in Thailand, mostly construction work and other long and hard, low paid labor, jobs that no Thai would want to take.

A Farang friend made the mistake of sending his bar-boy-friend money while he (FF) was in Europe, for months. The boy reported back that he went to job interviews, but didn't get a job, when in reality he partied away the money, and months later, when the money flow stopped, just returned to the bar FF picked him up in.

[latintopxxx]

....not for the 1st time I gotta agree with christian...sorry christian I know this is not going to exactly endear u to some board members...
But truth is that the VAST majority of MB are in the business because its easy money...its fast money...and almost no effort needed..for heavens sake some customers like joe just want a hug and a cuddle and maybe a half arsed bj...
Im not judging the MBs or criticizing them...or calling them lazy...they choose the life...so NO I dont feel sorry for them...or any sort of special allowances should be made. then u better perform or I will be bitching for a discount...simple..