Happy Ending = back on subject !

[bucknaway]

Please vote on what you think is a fair tip for a massage in Pattaya that includes a happy ending. You can only choose one selection but you are permitted to change your vote if you have a change of heart.

I will admit that this poll may be a point of reference for me when I get my massage in Pattaya. :glasses7:

[arsenal]

To all intents and purposes a massage is exactly the same as an off, indeed I often take the masseur back to my hotel where the facillities are better and more comfortable. 1200 Baht for the boy will give him a happy ending after he has given you one. :laughing3:

[TravellerDave]

I don't think a massage is good value if your objective is sex rather than the therapeutic benefit. I stay in Pattaya but like the Dongtan gay beach in the afternoons. Returning from the beach I have sex on my mind and go for a massage.
The massage fee is 500 plus say 700 tip making 1200. Enjoyment is so much better in the room rather than the massage cubicle.
Maybe I would give a larger tip for anal or some rimming.

[arsenal]

Travellerdave: 700 baht tip is perhaps why there are less boys available than in previous years. Derisory. In fact. Shameful.

[bucknaway]

Travellerdave: 700 baht tip is perhaps why there are less boys available than in previous years. Derisory. In fact. Shameful.

Tell us about your tip, not what you think of others tip. Feel free to explain why you tip so lavishly. :glasses7:

[latintopxxx]

fools....i get a massage and a fuck for under 1200......and i make sure the massage bitch cums too...

[Marsilius]

The heading to this post asks what customers do tip. The introductory text to the poll asks what customers should give as a fair tip. That inconsistency will lead to confusion in responses.

I imagine that few, if any, customers give more than what they consider they should (i.e. the "fair" amount). But equally I suspect that many cheap Charlie's will, when they do pay up, try to save their precious spending money by offering less than what they might, in their heart of hearts, consider to be fair.

If the OP wants guidance as to what to pay, he needs to clarify whether he wants moral guidance in the abstract ("should pay") or advice as to what the practicalities of the market really are ("do pay").

[bucknaway]

I don't want direct advice on what I should pay/tip, I am more interested to know what the average may be and I will decide what my tip will be as related to the satisfaction I receive.

[arsenal]

Bucknaway: I'll tell you what I think of others tip if I choose to. Massage and sex for 1200 Baht...lavish? Like I said, I think 700 Baht is shocking. Tell me Travvelerdave. Do you tell the boy that's what you're going to pay him prior to commencement? Just curious.

[fedssocr]

what if it's just massage and a hand job? That's what I would expect most people get for a "happy ending". Depends a bit on the place too. Some places the boy stays dressed the whole time while others he may go naked and offer a more interactive time.

[bucknaway]

I guess the tip also has to take into account the Quasimoto factor as one radio guy likes to put it.
If you rank high on the Quasimoto scale, you should pay more compensation I would guess.

Also the place and the guy giving the massage would be a factor

[latintopxxx]

bucky boy.....u r so like totally confused....the quasimodo factor does not apply to paid sex....u have the cash....u rule...so simple even I understand it...and apply it with gusto....
As for some previous comments by other posters...my rukes for a massage..
boy must be cute (at least in my eyes)
boy must know how to actually massage..or else I send him away and get another one..and I have done that before
boy must be naked..if not...rule above applies
boy must provide a full sexual service over and above the massage...that is always arranged and checked before hand...and the full amounmt to be paid pre-arranged
and lastly...boy must also cum..and smile..and be pleased I chose him...

i apply the above rules...on a regular basis...no problem...

[bucknaway]

So far it seems the range is from 500 to 1500 baht
With the higher tips it may be better to do a bar long time off.

[colmx]

As others have posted there is a big difference between a full sex massage that you get in the like of Blue house, Arena, Hero etc

And the quick release that is offered at the end of an oil massage in one of the "legitimate" massage shops....

Bucky - which kind of happy ending are you talking about?

If its a simple hand job from a fully dressed guy then i think that the 1000+ figures that are been spoken about here are ludicrous!

[Nirish guy]

So far it seems the range is from 500 to 1500 baht
With the higher tips it may be better to do a bar long time off.

That assumes that that time wise / sex wise a long time off is what one actually wants - sometimes it might just be a quick afternoon impromptu passing on the street and called in a for quick fuck sort of deal that's appropriate ( who said romance is dead :-) and so a long time off wouldn't be either required or desired - especially as you may in fact have been on your way to meet up with your long time off for the evening when you got distracted in the first place by some cute massage guy offering his wares, sometimes a nice massage ( which could genuinely have been the reason you called there too of course) and a nice quick fuck afterwards is just ideal to allow you to move on to other things and assuming the guy does a good job then the 1000 baht area is to me about right as don't forget of you go with the long time off you're probably not then getting the good massage and if you off the massage boy then the shop will load your massage cost accordingly to take him off the premises.

Actually it might have been interesting if the poll category of 750 - 1000 baht was in fact split to show the two figures separately as I think there's quite a difference between the two figures perhaps ( apart from the 250 baht of course) but if 50% are ticking that box did the answer relate to the lower or the higher figure then - that would be interesting to know maybe ?

[colmx]

BTW when i go to a "normal massage" shop and the massage is just a normal massage with absolutely no sexual contact i usually tip the rate of the massage to the boy
i.e. 300B massage gets 300B tip

If there is a happy ending on my part... and one that involves no kissing, sucking, fucking touching or him removing his clothes i usually pay the massage shop with 1000B and give him the 700B change as a tip...

If more ensues... well then thats usually 1-2000... depends on how much happened...
Now if only i could find Tae the 2000B massage guy again... wow!

[joe552]

and one that involves no kissing, sucking, fucking touching or him removing his clothes

colmx, in what way does this constitute a happy ending massage? just curious

[timmberty]

and one that involves no kissing, sucking, fucking touching or him removing his clothes

colmx, in what way does this constitute a happy ending massage? just curious

christian had a happy ending a while back .. they forgot to charge him.

[joe552]

:sign5:

[Nirish guy]

I'm guessing Colmx meant him touching the boy perhaps not the other way round joe otherwise I guess that would be just LOOKING at the boy and coming aa he's just SO cute, but while Thai boys might be beautiful I doubt there are many that are just THAT beautiful - although now that I think about it ...... :-)

[joe552]

not for the first time NIrish, you've managed to confuse me. How can you get a massage without being touched? Is this happy ending that colmx means, the customer just wanks while looking at the boy? I'm at a loss, as I've never been for a massage (happy or otherwise) so don't really know.

[colmx]

Joe:
What i was trying to say was that the Masseur jerks off the customer with a quite mechanical technique.
At the same time the customer is not touching or pawing the masseur in any way and the masseur is fully dressed...
Very unromantic... but happens a lot if you are being massaged "down there" and the soldier stands to attention!

[joe552]

and people pay for this service? :dontknow: I can do it myself for free.

thanks colmx for explaining. one never stops learning about Thailand on this site.

[Nirish guy]

??? Now you're confusing ME Joe, so what, are you saying that you've never come across ( excuse the pun) the situation that Colm describes, where its not a full on sex massage place but in the course of the normal massage when either by the wee bugger doing his damnedest to get you hard just for the possibility of a tip or more likely perhaps during the normal massage you get hard inspite of your best efforts to think of last nights football or something that suddenly the massage guy or girl either asks - or perhaps doesnt bother asking and just goes ahead and takes care of that for you, then cleans up and carrys on the massage as if nothing happened ?

As Colm says is more mechanical than sexual almost but sometimes it is a blessed relief just to enable them to get on with the massage with you lying there with a stiffy for the next hour.

Are you SURE it's Thailand you've been going to all these years !!? :-)

[colmx]

Are you SURE it's Thailand you've been going to all these years !!? :-)
Thy don't have massage shops near the Khmer and Shiva Temples that Joe solely visits when he is on his trips

[joe552]

Here's a confession, NIrish - I've never had a massage in Thailand (except for a foot massage which doesn't really count). I went to a blind massage place in Siem Reap once, but that was to relieve the pain of a day on a motorbike out in the country.

Sometimes when I off a guy from a bar, him giving me a massage is part of the package - but that's not the same thing. I really can't see the point of paying the same amount I'd pay to off a boy from a bar, to someone who's merely going through the motions. For the money people are paying, I can have a boy in my room who'll give me a massage when I want. and the rest, and convince me he's enjoying it.

[fedssocr]

of course a lot of the sex massage type places openly tell you the "minimum tip" amount. I generally use that as a guide for what I will tip. I'll only tip over that in a couple of cases: if he was REALLY good either at the massage part or the sex part, or I'm leaving Thailand tomorrow and won't be back for a year so and I have some extra cash in my pocket that I feel like giving him. Sometimes both of those will apply. A few years ago I had a massage at Fan Club in Soi Convent. Masseur was not my typical type (a good bit older than I usually go for), but had an amazing body, fantastic massage technique, and was a lot of fun after the massage was over, and I was heading home the next day. He got probably 2x the minimum tip on that occasion

[loke]

Happy ending I voted 750 to 1000 .

It doesnt happen too often , I visit a massage place for a massage , not sex. But if the boy is cute and things escalates I will tip 1000 .

[dab69]

Happy ending I voted 750 to 1000 .

It doesnt happen too often , I visit a massage place for a massage , not sex. But if the boy is cute and things escalates I will tip 1000 .

If the boy wasn't cute- I would just massage myself...
which happens all too often even on vacation.
I think sometimes I am more picky
than ChristianPFC.

[bucknaway]

Happy ending I voted 750 to 1000 .

It doesnt happen too often , I visit a massage place for a massage , not sex. But if the boy is cute and things escalates I will tip 1000 .

If the boy wasn't cute- I would just massage myself...
which happens all too often even on vacation.
I think sometimes I am more picky
than ChristianPFC.

Where do you get your massages from? Don't you get to pick the guy massaging you?

[colmx]

Where do you get your massages from? Don't you get to pick the guy massaging you?
As per my last post in this thread... there is definately a disconnect between the original posters question and reality... or at least he has to frame his question around a location...

In 70% of the Pattaya masage places you can not choose your masseur... they are assigned to you in rotation... and in fact there is no sex expected

On the other hand in Bkk in 80% (I guess) of the places you CAN choose your masseur

Of course the difference is in BKK you expect sex... in pattaya... if you get sex in a "non Sex" venue... its just a bonus

[bucknaway]

Where do you get your massages from? Don't you get to pick the guy massaging you?
As per my last post in this thread... there is definately a disconnect between the original posters question and reality... or at least he has to frame his question around a location...

In 70% of the Pattaya masage places you can not choose your masseur... they are assigned to you in rotation... and in fact there is no sex expected

On the other hand in Bkk in 80% (I guess) of the places you CAN choose your masseur

Of course the difference is in BKK you expect sex... in pattaya... if you get sex in a "non Sex" venue... its just a bonus

That is good to know. I didn't know that in Pattaya you could not choose. IF they pick a guy I am not thrilled with I may have to pretend I have someplace to go.

[RonanTheBarbarian]

Bucknaway, as you are a bit shy, I would suggests just going to places where they give you the choice.

From what I have read of you, i am guessing that if you went into a massage place and they assigned the troll to you , you would be too embarrassed to back out.

As far as I remember, i was offered a choice in the BoyzBoyzBoyz place, and in Magnolia spa, they have all the guys listed on an Ipad with pictures, and you pick from that.

Magnolia might actually be a good choice for you as it is in a secluded spot in east central Pattaya, (they do free pick-up if you ask).

[colmx]

That is good to know. I didn't know that in Pattaya you could not choose.

I should clarify that in the likes of BBB, Copa, Scandic, Blue House and Nascissus - as far as i know you ca choose your masseur
These places are basically brothels dressed up as massage shops - where sex is expected as part of the service

In the other massage shops around Tuk.com that are staffed by Gay boys... the sex is not expected... but is often found and sometimes welcome..
In these places the boys work on a rota... so you are assigned who ever is next in line...

[Nirish guy]

In the other massage shops around Tuk.com that are staffed by Gay boys.. In these places the boys work on a rota... so you are assigned who ever is next in line...

I have to say I almost never follow their rota in those areas as the way I see it in those places sex of some description is usually a given and I'm damned if I'm being paired off with someone I don't fancy in some shape or form - especially as the reason I probably stopped by in the first place was seeing a cute guy I fancied sitting outside their place. I find an out held hand to the boy I want to go massage me is usually enough to let the manager or boys know my intention and I find if they do try the "ok, it's this boys turn next" they do usually ask " he ok for you" and if he's not the boy I stopped for I've no problem switching.

It's different if I'm going for a proper massage where no sex is expected or even wanted, but even then ( as I suffer from a bad back half the time I'm in Thailand) I always ask " ok, who can "really" massage as I have sore back" and if the rota guy gives me a look of "shit, not really" then I've no worries about asking for the best masseuse available and take it from there, where maybe then the new guy who maybe isn't great at massage sees that and goes and learns his craft a bit better.

Again in a sex massage place I accept the massage will probably be crap to average or good if I'm lucky and that's fine but in a "real" massage please I do want and expect a proper good strong massage and not the cop out thirty gallons of oil poured all over my back and the guys hands just randomly rubbing it in in the hope that it feels good ( which it rarely does).

[anonone]

colmx.

If you are referring to the likes of Som Jit, etc....it is possible to pick your guy. I found a real cutie there once, sitting out front. I stopped to chat with him and asked if he wanted to give massage for me. No issue at all and popped right upstairs.

They do work on a rotation, but I would imagine it would be possible to buck the line at the Day/Night places (Som Jim, Relax/2, Nakarat) using the approach above. I agree if you just walk in and ask for massage, you get the next man up.

If there is no one that strikes me right off, I do often just take my chances with the staff lottery. Have had some fun times with guys I would not have specifically chosen that way. A good method to expand horizons, so to speak.

[anonone]

( as I suffer from a bad back half the time I'm in Thailand) .

It is those damn concrete beds at Mosaic...

:sign5:

[scottish-guy]

...boy must provide a full sexual service....and lastly...boy must also cum..and smile..and be pleased I chose him...
...

http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/latintopxxx-the-movie-t29643.html :ura1:

[joe552]

I don't think it's the beds, anonone - it's really the amount of time NIrish spends on his back with his legs in the air that's the problem. He's not as young as he used to be.

[Nirish guy]

( as I suffer from a bad back half the time I'm in Thailand) .

It is those damn concrete beds at Mosaic...

:sign5:


As you know only too well Anon you are in fact 100% right about that and Joe you get maybe a 25% score as I find that its the vigorous actions required by my DOING the fucking that does for my poor back - but you were on the right tracks - actually ( seeing you didn't ask ;-) in that I find the activities you describe just might actually help ones back as it leads to more stretching of the back muscles ( and a few others perhaps too :-) and that of course as far as your back goes anyway is always a good thing.

[latintopxxx]

anonone, i also employ the same method, like to chat with the boys outside and see which ones are keen to provide extras, the boys at prime massage (close to tawan in BKK) always used ti hang around outside. But recently they changed management and this no longer seems to happen. not sure why!!

[timmberty]

sorry to change the subject, but latin i must ask you, has your .............. button broke ?

[bucknaway]

anonone, i also employ the same method, like to chat with the boys outside and see which ones are keen to provide extras, the boys at prime massage (close to tawan in BKK) always used ti hang around outside. But recently they changed management and this no longer seems to happen. not sure why!!

I've never had any luck at Tawan Bar. When I have gone there I either get ignored by the guys, or I get hit on by the server who promises me a free sex encounter but I doubt it will truly be free and i'm sure they are hoping for a top guy and I would only disappoint them so I always decline the offer. The other scenario is a guy who is not much my type coming over to me and having a conversation with me and often explaining how the bar works as related to the guys and offing them. I play along and soon they are offering to have an encounter with me for 4000 Baht or more. I think I am willing to let them think I am new to the scene because 1. they are not my type and I am just killing time and having fun. 2. I am curious to see if they see me as a "Fool and his Baht."

The other thing about Tawan is that I have read more negative posts about the guys on the web then I have read positive so I am kinda on guard when at the bar.

[pennyboy]

Anytime I go to any of the massage shops around TukCom or the male only ones on Second Road opposite Boyztown I always have the masseur of my choice.

[latintopxxx]

timmy troll, nothing wrng with my............bitton, but someone complained so being very willing to please I stopped using it.
Buckyboy, i have no issues with tawan, most of the time excellent beef to gawk at, good shows, lotsa fleas, cok and butt. and no pressure to ever off anyone.

[timmberty]

timmy troll, nothing wrng with my............bitton, but someone complained so being very willing to please I stopped using it.
Buckyboy, i have no issues with tawan, most of the time excellent beef to gawk at, good shows, lotsa fleas, cok and butt. and no pressure to ever off anyone.

wow to called a troll by you is a bit special, i assume you meant troll, as most of the other words need a spell check. and people complain about me

as for pleasing people ?? you have bored people to tears for years about your saddle riding skills, you have often been asked to give it up, but never have.
and scotty asks you to start using correct grammer, and you do it!!!!

bty what you done with beachlover ? forgot the password..... nows thats trolling.

[joe552]

latin - please tell me the reference to fleas in your last post was a misprint - did you mean flesh or are you into insects as well as ponies?

[scottish-guy]

Well, only Latintopxxx can tell us if he's into insects - but with his penchant for picking up the cheapest street/railway/sewer boys wherever he goes, he must have more than a passing acquaintance with crabs.

[bucknaway]

Why all this boring bashing on Latin?

[scottish-guy]

I'd be extremely surprised if Latintopxxx felt "bashed" in the slightest - just as Christian does not feel "bashed" when we have a poke his financial frugality.

Latintopxxx knows when he relates his "adventures" that he will provoke a response (and some might say he appears to relish it), just as Christian's expenditure lists and surreal adventures provoke a response.

With all due respect, the trouble with you Bucky, is that you appear to have a very thin skin and no sense of humour whatsoever - this has been amply demonstrated in the recent past when innocuous criticism has caused you to freak out, accuse people of being racist, and stomp off in a sulk - declaring that you will not comment further - because your ego has been pricked. :dontknow:

[bucknaway]

Y'all have gone beyond having a poke at Latin, he can't make a single post on the board without having a rerun of bashes directed at him and its the same stuff over and over again. Nothing new and nothing fresh its just the same stuff. He may play it off as not caring but the rest of us see it and we remember that there are those that will use our posts to attack us/ poke fun at us to the point of boredom and sickness.

[scottish-guy]

..there are those that will use our posts to attack us/ poke fun at us to the point of boredom and sickness.

You're not seriously playing the "victim" card now, are you?

If it's all right by you, I'd prefer to hear from Latintopxxx himself whether or not he is traumatised by people poking fun at his pony-riding escapades. I strongly suspect he isn't.

[bucknaway]

Scottish, as a former mod you know you we're trolling Latin and the only ones having fun was the bashers. You HATE it when we ask you to stop having your evil fun but its not funny dude. It stopped being funny long ago.

There is a reason why you are always in these types of board arguments.

[pong]

Why all this boring bashing on Latin?
Wow-completely agree with you this time. It gets sooooooo real boring-the same all the time. Even at kindergarten kids are told: once is enough, a joke is only 1 time funny.
What I personally, perhaps due to these for some funny-seeming responses, really regret is that Latin has also stopped posting his most interesting foreign trip-reports and the joys of seeing boyflesh dancing on tables in towns like Vilnius, Budapest etc. But I admire his courage in not withdrawing from posting at all. He might be better suited for some other notorious board.

[scottish-guy]

Well, Pong, if what Bucky says is true and Latintopxxx is traumatised by some innocuous banter on SGT then I doubt he'd survive very long on that other board you allude to, where they tend to be ever so slightly "robust".

Anyway, I'm in a sulk now and refuse to respond any further. :crybaby: :crybaby:

[latintopxxx]

me traumatised??? whatever gave anyone that idea?? Please pile it one, I enjoy the pain!! Must admit at times I do get annoyed/put off when board members accsue me of lying or wildly exagerating about my escapades. In fact quite the opposite, I get up to lotsa shit not only in Thailand but also Europe that would make my "riding the stupid whore like a pony" seem like an act of goodwill.
I have an above average interest in sex, its my hobby, I'm motivated by porn, stuff like privateboymovie, georgesgang, machofucker, straighthell...you get the picture...and play out my fantasies. You only live once, so why wait, and in a place like Thailand (or Brazil, South Africa, etc...) lwhere everything is possible why not?
I enjoy pushing the proverbial envelope, sometimes almost to breaking point, I have fun, they get paid, its their job!!

[Impulse]

Latintop looks like the devil. I saw his photo on GR. If I was his trick, I would run out the door right away!I would not look back!

I'm not bashing LT.....take it as a compliment I guess. :dontknow:

[latintopxxx]

Personal attacks=not nice. I can understand and accept attacks based on my personality or actions as these are factors I can control, but based on looks??? I'm so mortally offended, think I will lock myself in a dark room with a bottle of whisky and have a good sob session.

[scottish-guy]

How can you meet 2 boys in a Sauna in Bangkok, and not get your hole?

Or did you?

The juicy details are what Joe requires.

[Nirish guy]

And more importantly DOES meeting anyone in a suana even count as "scoring" as let's face it it's what you are both there for and so is more akin to shooting fish in a barrel I'd have thought rather than being successful at hooking up with everyday non scene Thai guys ?

[christianpfc]

Ok, if you really want to know all the sordid details: the first boy is not so much my type, but with the second one, I went to a room and I fucked him in 3 positions: first he on his back with legs up, then doggy, finally I on my back and he on me. Meeting today failed due to rain.

Non-scene is not that easy. I gave out my phone number two weeks ago in a shopping center, and he called me that very night. But we didn't get together again (we had a date for the following day, he cancelled it, twice!).

But yesterday, I walked past a house in the slum, and spotted a cute boy. Standing on the road and trying to get a better look, they noticed me and invited me to join them for drinking (I stayed there about 21:00 to 22:30). I got groped by the cute boy's older brother (the picture is not the groping, the picture is later before I left).

I count this as success (being groped by a slightly drunk Thai man who is not my type). The cute boy got shirtless as well (unfortunately, no pic) They invited me to join them another day, earlier in the evening as there would be more boys around. If the cute boy had not left before me on his motorcyle, I would have asked him to drive me home or accompany me home (because I am afraid of the dark or of ghosts). Then I would have invited him for another beer in my room.

Small steps.

[joe552]

christian, I hope there isn't a strong family resemblance between the brothers (I know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but still...)

[timmberty]

you said it a lot nicer than i could have joe.
the picture reminds me of some kind of gay superheros.. tho the outfits could be a bit better, the masks are spot on.

[joe552]

I'm still wondering why christian is hanging out with such a skinny guy? :dontknow:

maybe the younger brother has a bit more meat on him

[latintopxxx]

u guys are acid tongued haters, no matter what christian does u tear him to pieces!!

[joe552]

latintop, I am sure christian is as capable as you are of taking a little harmless ribbing. if not, and he's been offended by anything I've posted, then I'm happy to apologise.

[scottish-guy]

I suspect Christian would be rather disappointed if he didn't get some "gentle ribbing". I can't recall anybody ever being genuinely offensive to him.

[bucknaway]

Well it looks like the poll results are gone:-(
That sucks

[latintopxxx]

ok. maybe I'm taking it all too seriously.

[blazer]

Lots of places in Pattaya to get a good relaxing massage . I like to get a good one to two hour massage at least every other day when visiting Pattaya. A favorite reason to visit.

Most of the traditional gay massage shops like Duo House in Jomtien or Copa in Boystown or Blue House and Royal House in Day Night are looking for a minimum 800 baht tip or more for a one hour massage.

The 300 baht one hour gay massage shops around Tukcom, about a half dozen of them or so, are known more for their good massages rather than being know for having the cutest guys.

But they are OK by me. You pick the guy you want, and this is a good place to get a great massage. Try a masseur out, start out with a one hour foot massage, see how it goes, and then add an oil or cream massage for another hour if you like what you see. A 400 baht tip for a one hour massage at these shops is very well received.

[christianpfc]

Everyone who has been following my tales even remotely can easily name five reasons why the guy in the picture is not my type.


I'm still wondering why christian is hanging out with such a skinny guy?

It might come as a surprise for some (but I mentioned it when I wrote about the Burmese of indeterminable gender, age and ethnicity in my neighborhood) but I sometimes hang out with people I have no sexual interest in (but it certainly helps if they have cute friends or family members), to improve Thai-German friendship and to increase mutual cultural understanding.


Well it looks like the poll results are gone:-(
That sucks

What poll results? I was away for the weekend, did I miss something?


Lots of places in Pattaya to get a good relaxing massage. ...

I largely agree with that that post, but I can't see how it fits to the subject or anything that has been said of topic in this thread.

[daf4]

Any guys been to magnolia spa recently heard it was good anyone recommend it

[bucknaway]

Christian, I made a thread with a poll that for some reason got merged with your thread and in the process the poll results were lost. I would redo the poll but I'm posting from my cell phone.....