Pattaya - SunneePlaza -What's the deal with CrazyDragon? [Archive] - Sawatdee Gay Thailand the oldest and most popular gay forum on Thailand and South East Asia

newalaan2

July 18th, 2013, 20:56

it does seem a shame that "something" can't be done to make what was once a very enjoyable bar in Sunee inviting and enjoyable again ?
There have been a few threads regarding KrazyDragon on here and other forums where the owner did participate and gave honest asessments of the trading conditions and 'red tape' facing bar owners. KD is between the devil and the deep blue sea. It's a huge bar and according to the owner when last discussing it, there was just too much 'operating costs' to justify a gogo bar which is what it was always best known for. If that's still not an option and beerbar/hostbar is the only other, the problem is the bar lay out. I don't know of any beerbar which is not open to the soi it's on.

Topman tried in vain for a long time to have a totally enclosed bar work as a non-agogo bar. The problem is as the OP says, there is nothing to look at, no central focus, no dancing boys, just boyless tables. In all beer bars the main entertainment is simply enjoying your drink with a view. The passing pedestrian traffic is the main entertainment, without that there is nothing. Perhaps a pool table and/or TV screens but essentially you are just sitting there staring at four walls. The bar next door crazy pub is a good example, the whole front is open air, further back there is pool table but you can still see what's happening around the outside of the bar. Despite vowing to pay a visit on my last recent trip I just didn't see the attraction of staring at four walls with so many other bar options, had it been open to the soi I would have definitely gone in.

To stand any chance, the main outside wall would need to be ripped down and changed to either a mix of glass and open air with a terrace, or all open. Colonial gets away with a small terrace and big bar because the 'enclosed' section has a total glass frontage with 2 sets of sliding doors and inside there are TV screens. I don't know if KD could get away with it's present set up but with dancing boys as a focal point (fully clothed) or if that would still be classed as a gogo bar for the purposes of tea money. I noted that Maxis in Soi Twilight, Bkk used to have the main bar area enclosed glass and a large terrace out front. That was changed a few months ago, where they got rid of the glass frontage behind the terrace to be all open air. The bar manager there I have known for years said the customers preferred the new set up, it was easier all round for access to the bar area, toilets and the waiters had better access everywhere.

I do hope the owner posts soon and comes up with something nice and cool that will be an enhancement to Sunee and it all takes off for him.Me too, Double Shot has raised the bar in sunee and contributed to making the area more attractive, changes to other bars do not need to be to this level to enhance things in sunee, any level of improvement is positive.

I suggest waiting until he does
Not sure what this means, wait until his announcement before making suggestions? For what purpose? Waiting for what exactly? Obviously it will be the owner who decides, meanwhile a forum is for posting thoughts and ideas which are not much good to the owner once a decision is made.

Nirish guy

July 18th, 2013, 22:04

while I'm waiting I'll just pop off and spend my money elsewhere in the meantime
That's about what the owner expects.

Good, then he won't be too disappointed, but the knock on effect of that is a loss if "goodwill" as I now feel ( and felt ) like an established bar trading name was trying to encourage me to to come on and spend money where even they didn't assume I would as the product (now) available was sub standard perhaps, so in this case I guess they'll now have to work twice as hard as before to earn that goodwill back again - bearing in mind that my original purpose of going to the bar was to support the owner.

But, if what you're saying GB is that "hey look he knows its not great just now, knows you'll all be drinking elsewhere until he gets it sorted and bare with him" then that is fair enough I guess - but the "go in drink with boy" part does leave a bad goodwill taste and is something for the owner to consider.

However and again to be fair to the owner I believe there are rules about bars being shit in Sunee and leases that can be taken back etc so perhaps that's his reasons for staying open but in a limbo state and if so then it's maybe more a case of not great communication with your own customer base to let them know that ( more than the one email several months ago now) that is the problem. But still to end on a positive note he should be happy that people still care what happens to his bar and do wish to return at some point in the future and that the plaza is going forwards not backwards in terms of other bars plans as well - all more positive than negative I hope he'll agree.

Manforallseasons

July 18th, 2013, 22:16

This baby is on its last Legs.

Gaybutton

July 18th, 2013, 22:36

I suggest waiting until he does
Not sure what this means, wait until his announcement before making suggestions?
I meant you might as well wait until he announces his plans. He has already decided what he's going to do, so suggestions are rather superfluous at this point. If people want to speculate or post suggestions for him anyhow, go ahead.

if what you're saying GB is . . .
All I'm saying is he said he will announce his intentions "soon." What he didn't tell me is how soon "soon" is. In the meantime, for now the bar is open if anyone wants to drink there, but there is only a skeleton staff at present.

MiniMee

July 19th, 2013, 01:07

A few days ago I spoke with the owner. He said he will soon be announcing his intentions. I suggest waiting until he does.

Thanks, but no thanks, for your suggestion.

If people want to speculate or post suggestions for him anyhow, go ahead.

Thanks for granting your permission. Most of us already understand that is the purpose of a discussion forum such as this.

bucknaway

July 19th, 2013, 02:11

It is kinda silly to ask a talkers board to stop talking about a topical subject

thaiguest

July 19th, 2013, 02:42

Have to say I've had the same experience, I actually did want to go and show my support for the owner but like yourself looked in the door and didn't quite "get it" and some guy (manager perhaps ?) muttered something about "yes go in, drink with boy" but a) I didn't see any boys and b) I didn't fancy going in and sitting in what looked like a closed bar ( maybe it was to early and he meant later perhaps to be fair to him?) - but as I know the owner reads and posts on here occasionally as hopefully constructive criticism the whole point of whatever it is you're trying to turn the bar into just isn't apparent ( from the outside anyway) and leads on to either assume the bars closed or just not the sort of place you want to stop off.

Again ( and giving the owner every chance here) I know he'd mentioned about making structural changes etc later in the year so maybe the bars in a state of limbo or something just now, but it does seem a shame that "something" can't be done to make what was once a very enjoyable bar in Sunee inviting and enjoyable again ?

"Didn't quite get it" is exactly what I mean.
There is a lack of focus in this bar right now. The interior ambiance is that of a nite-club type venue- dimmed lighting etc. but the guts (boy-show) has been pulled out of it. It's like as if the new owner/owners has pulled down the house without building an alternative home.
I know what beer bars are, I know what go-go bars are but I sure don't know what's going on in Crazy Dragon, Sunnee Plaza.
It's easy for me to point out failings as I'm not an investor in Sunnee Plaza but I'm doing so in this case because I don't want to see another iconic venue go to the wall without some interest being shown by the long line of previous customers.

Gaybutton

July 19th, 2013, 06:40

It is kinda silly to ask a talkers board to stop talking about a topical subject
For Pete's sake, I don't know why some of you twist a perfectly innocent response into something else. I couldn't care less whether anyone wants to discuss it, start rumors, start speculating, make suggestions, or anything else. The OP asked what the "set up" is and what's going on at Krazy Dragon and I responded by posting what I know about it and pointing out that the owner said he has already made his decisions. Isn't that terrible of me?

bucknaway

July 19th, 2013, 07:08

Since you picked my quote to reply to I will respond but as a rule I try to stay away from message board back and forths.

That being said.....

We all read what you said, and we have read what the owner has said in other threads. We can speculate as to the disposition and direction of the bar. Others who have more info may want to chime in just as you did.

Now as far as you suggesting that we go and start rumors.... Well you're just being silly.

I myself wonder if he is regretting his purchase? Not regretting it because it is not as profitable as he had hoped but regretting it because of all the secret rules as well as hush-hush cost involved along with his personal risk running a gogo bar?

Beachlover

July 19th, 2013, 09:52

I suggest waiting until he does
meanwhile a forum is for posting thoughts and ideas...
OMG Newalaan... Thanks for the reminder! :rolling:

For a moment I thought I was on another forum. I had to look at the address bar of my browser to check I was still on SGF. Phew!

:sign5: :sign5:

puckered_penguin

July 19th, 2013, 10:47

Krazy4thai

July 19th, 2013, 14:36

The owner of Crazy Dragon purchased a run down sleeze bar and fairly quickly took out the remaining sleeze. Rather than make a go of it he has been letting it drift and concentrated on his other interests Nice Boys. Meanwhile Crazy Dragon is up for sale for 2m Baht even though he purchased it for 1.5m Baht. Hey, you have to recover your losses somehow!

This is all rumors of course.

Interesting : I dont know if I'm the only one out of the loop here but I didn't realise the new owner of KD also has an interest in "Nice Boys".
just a thought, but wouldn't moving Nice boys into the old KD make sense, get it off the less worn track of Soi VC and into the Sunee Plaza proper., away from Mic My and it's bad rep and track record.

At least prop the door open more often so it doesn't look so much like it's still a gogo to the unsuspecting. Rip down the Krazy Dragon sign, rename the bar and maybe generate some interest until planned renovations can be done.
Would possibly have to do a DS bar kind of make-over to eventually take off if it's going to.
I noticed with interest my first night in the Plaza this trip that Good Boys ripped down their front wall.It's still dark and gloomy and has the same old rough trade hanging out the front on stools ,and as of my latest info is still charging gogo bar prices for drinks. The new KD owner will surely have to do something pretty special to re-vamp. Case on point, Double Shot.
Just a few of my own personal thoughts on the KD saga, as an initially disappointed fan of the old KD
The new owner of KD has posted on a few occasions that he listened to his potential customers when changing the format to a beer bar, but I wonder looking at some replies here, to whom did he listen.??

scottish-guy

July 19th, 2013, 15:02

...For a moment I thought I was on another forum....

In your case, quite understandable.

timmberty

July 19th, 2013, 16:50

...For a moment I thought I was on another forum....

In your case, quite understandable.

yes and i bet he had to delete the 5000 word artical he wrote about gaybutton being a disgusting.. etc etc and posting his pictures again ... before he realised it was the PBB he thought he was on .. then after realising hes not a poster on gaybutton, it could only be sgt

netrix

July 19th, 2013, 18:16

This baby is on its last Legs.

Long gone. Krazy Dragon has been slain.
If I had an extra 2 million baht and if it was really for sale, I'd buy the bar just for the name,
and then move the famous sign and brand to Boyztown and open a new gogo bar.

I was chatting online with a friend from the USA last week. He's visited Pattaya and Bangkok
before, and his first question to me was, "Is Krazy Dragon still there?" I think the new owner
has no clue the power of the brand he's killed off. My first couple of trips to Thailand I didn't
even know Sunee Plaza existed. That was until I heard about the famous Krazy Dragon and
went in search of it. It was a very fun place to hang out for a while and drink with the guys.

Funny, my friend's second question was "How about Wild West Boys, is it still there?"
I had to tell him that WWB is another barely alive bar that killed off it's popular brand and
lost it's clientele.

I know every one of us on these forums act like we know better than the owners, but some
of us actually do have a clue what makes the popular bars popular. Listening to a couple
of loud posters who never used to visit a bar because they didn't like it isn't the way to
please years and years of clients who loved a place and came back year after year.

MARK

July 20th, 2013, 01:15

Well the KD website clearly states it is now for sale at 2.25m which would indeed make the new owner a tidy profit but that's what business is all about making money one way or the other. So good look to George.
George only made one mistake forgetting that its the boys that earn the bar the money and although the boys at the KD never have been or would be to every ones taste they knew how to work a bar. :hello2:

arsenal

July 20th, 2013, 08:45

I am reminded of GBs quote.

"The two greatest days in a bar owners life are the day he buys the bar and day he sells it"

catawampuscat

July 20th, 2013, 10:04

Walking thru the Pattayland sois, on our way to see the two Xboys bar shows,
I lamented to a good buddy about the complete downward spiral of WildWest boys.
It had been great years ago, lost its way, lost its boys and gone
from best to worst.
Same can be said for Krazy Dragon. It had been spiraling down
before current owner and is now absolute worst boybar in Thailand..

Special show on the 21st at XBoys (smoking) and always hot hot hot. Sometimes,
the tobacco smoke makes it tough to enjoy but usually worth it.
XBoyland (no smoking) almost always a great erotic show and super hot
last night.

Manforallseasons

July 20th, 2013, 12:40

Would you like to be a part of the excitement? (COPIED FROM KRAZY DRAGON WEBSITE)

The Krazy Dragon is for sale

2.25 Million Baht

(approx. 75,000 USD)

Serious Inquiries Only

Come be a part of the crazy nightlife of Sunee Plaza

Please contact George@krazy-dragon.com

puckered_penguin

July 20th, 2013, 12:51

Now for sale for 2.25m. I guess as it loses 1/4 million increments the price goes up correspondingly. Hope it is sold soon.

MARK

July 20th, 2013, 15:17

I am reminded of GBs quote.

"The two greatest days in a bar owners life are the day he buys the bar and day he sells it"

arsenal, O M G that made me laugh its just so true, but there are some fantastic memorable people and moments in between. :salute:

Dodger

July 20th, 2013, 18:17

2.25 million baht is a lot of money for a sign...especially when the only thing holding it up is the last leg that its been perched on for the last 5 years.

No boys...no business!

Beer put a "For Sale" sign on Nice Boys back in May and stated he was tired of all the stress and wanted to start enjoying life a bit more. Knowing that, I'd be surprised if he had any intentions of buying the sign over at KD...evan at 1.0 million baht - which of course is what farang bar owners in Sunee end up selling their businesses for after reality sets in. Just ask Jim (previous owner of JimJimmyJames) or Edward (previous owner of Corner Bar) or Michael (owner of Corner Bar before Edward) or a dozen others.

It was rumored on the sois last year that Maddam Sunee was not going to renew the leases in the Plaza after 2 more years and had intentions of selling the property. I think Beer over at Nice Boys sees the writing on the wall (he always does). Beer also sold his half share of Moon Staw Karaoke (sp?) on Soi Yensabai last year about the same time that the rumors of Maddam Sunees intentions surfaced. According to sources the Moon Staw property was also under Maddam Sunees control. Two weeks later he purchased a karaoke on Third Road which was not owned by Maddam Sunee. To me, this was an indicator of things to come. You will all have your own opinions of course.

DragonMaster

July 20th, 2013, 19:00

I am reminded of what a good friend once told me. "Opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one." It certainly holds true on this forum. Let me address a few specific things here.

I myself wonder if he is regretting his purchase? Not regretting it because it is not as profitable as he had hoped but regretting it because of all the secret rules as well as hush-hush cost involved along with his personal risk running a gogo bar?

No Bucky, I have no regrets about my purchase of the bar. Unlike most of you I knew what I was getting into. I purchased the bar with the hopes that it could be turned into what it was several years ago. I already knew about the "secret rules" as you put it and the "hush-hush" cost involved in running a bar here in Thailand. Something most of you have no clue about, but that's beating a dead horse and has been covered by several other posters including myself before.

Rather than make a go of it he has been letting it drift and concentrated on his other interests Nice Boys. Meanwhile Crazy Dragon is up for sale for 2m Baht even though he purchased it for 1.5m Baht.

Now I know why puckered_penguin is puckered, he's full of it! I'm sure Beer would be quite suprised to find out I have an interest in his business. Also the assertion that I bought the bar for 1.5m Baht is also untrue. Better pucker up more penguin and find out facts before you make an ass of yourself again. The price on the website has not changed and just shows you are either ignorant or illiterate, perhaps both.

Interesting : I dont know if I'm the only one out of the loop here but I didn't realise the new owner of KD also has an interest in "Nice Boys". just a thought, but wouldn't moving Nice boys into the old KD make sense, get it off the less worn track of Soi VC and into the Sunee Plaza proper., away from Mic My and it's bad rep and track record.

I do NOT have an interest in Nice Boys, and Beer who owns Nice Boys has not discussed this kind of merger with me, although Nice Dragon, or Krazy Boys might be a good name. Mic My is open again and has a new owner/manager, perhaps it's unfair to keep dwelling on what happened before.

The new owner of KD has posted on a few occasions that he listened to his potential customers when changing the format to a beer bar, but I wonder looking at some replies here, to whom did he listen.??

Obviously not all of the experts on this forum who have never been here, come once a year, or don't have any money to spend, but are loaded with suggestions. If it's really of interest to you, I had input from many other bar owners, current customers, and believe it or not, even the police. All were sound suggestions by people who live here and know the environment and run businesses.

If I had an extra 2 million baht and if it was really for sale, I'd buy the bar just for the name, and then move the famous sign and brand to Boyztown and open a new gogo bar.

I really don't think you would if you were smart. This only shows how little you know. Do you think you would just waltz into Boyztown and open a new gogo bar? You really need to get a clue. It would far more expensive than you realize. I already looked into that option and it is not viable. While some of you might indeed know what makes a bar popular, most of you haven't a clue how to run one. The object is to try and make money and if that doesn't work, you make some changes or try something else.

2.25 million baht is a lot of money for a sign...especially when the only thing holding it up is the last leg that its been perched on for the last 5 years.
Beer put a "For Sale" sign on Nice Boys back in May and stated he was tired of all the stress and wanted to start enjoying life a bit more. Knowing that, I'd be surprised if he had any intentions of buying the sign over at KD...evan at 1.0 million baht - which of course is what farang bar owners in Sunee end up selling their businesses for after reality sets in. Just ask Jim (previous owner of JimJimmyJames) or Edward (previous owner of Corner Bar) or Michael (owner of Corner Bar before Edward) or a dozen others.

Another expert without a clue! Where did you see anything about Beer wanting to buy KD? Certainly not here in this thread. Rumors about Mrs. Sunee selling the plaza have been circulating for some time and without a basis in fact that any of you can come up with. All speculation and BS until we hear from the source. You guys wonder why bar owners don't listen to you, well here's a good example.

================================================== ==============

Now that I've answered a few of these comments, I'd like to enlighten you to a few more facts.

While I was in another bar recently which will also remain nameless, I watched as a farang customer was giving one of the boys a blowjob in plain view of all the other customers on a sofa. There seem to be a lot of visitors to Sunee which leave their brains on the airplane when they come here. Guys, there are CCTV cameras in ALL entertainment venues you visit and these are accessible by the police to view. This is the law in Thailand and presents an additional risk to the bar for fines and closures, but it seems none of you really give a crap about that as long as you can satisfy your hormonal urges in public or elsewhere.

There are currently three bars in Sunee Plaza that are actively looking for buyers. Most are ones that some of you like to visit, but I'm not going to name names here. If you are observant you will figure out which ones they are. There are at least two more that are considering either selling or closing and another that has closed already. Why? Because the posters on this board are not sufficient to support any of them, and like it or not, Sunee will never return to the "Good Old Days" with all the sleaze you want, no matter how much you wish it to be.

Another note of interest to you sleaze lovers out there who criticize me for eliminating most of the sleaze. Several nights ago, a tourist who came to Sunee Plaza walked into one of the bars some of you like, and took hidden video of the boys jacking off. The police came soon after and closed the bar along with fining the owner 40,000 Baht. Do any of you really think that this is worth the risk when running a business. I certainly do not! 40,000 Baht is a lot of money to pay to satisfy the needs of a few punters who think 140 Baht for a drink is outrageous. Just how many drinks would one have to sell to make up that 40,000 Baht?

When I purchased the bar, I made a commitment that I would give the bar a given period of time to at least break even or I would sell or close it. It is not an emotional decision based on the good old days of wishful thinking, but a business decision. As most of you know who read earlier posts, we wanted to re-model the inside and give the bar a facelift. We finally got the estimates for this last week which came to 550,000 Baht. I just don't believe the risk/reward ratio is there to support the additional expense. If any of you believe you can do better, step up and buy the bar, or better yet, why don't all of the experts here form a partnership and keep all the posters on here happy.

I really do find it amusing how many of you critized the new Double Shot bar when it opened and said it would never work, it was too loud, it was too bright, the boys were not interesting, the music was terrible etc. etc. etc. Now I see in quite a few posts that this is becoming the new standard, and the bar is getting more popular as time goes on.

Manforallseasons

July 20th, 2013, 20:06

The Godfather

MiniMee

July 20th, 2013, 20:15

I have no regrets about my purchase of the bar. Unlike most of you I knew what I was getting into. I purchased the bar with the hopes that it could be turned into what it was several years ago.

So, why didn't you do just that?

puckered_penguin

July 20th, 2013, 20:37

Its about 12 years since 2 cameras were required to be placed in bars. One to cover an entrance and another the interior. I should think that the intelligent bar owners ensured the cameras actually got only a corner of a bar where nothing actually happened etc. So I think you are using this as an just another excuse for your failure to actually make a go of it.

How many new staff did you actually hire? How much did you spend on upgrading your new purchase and how much did you spend advertising your new investment? The questions are rhetorical!

What did you think you were getting into when you purchased a run down bar?

OK this is my last post on this subject as the subject is boring, as is, living in the past.

timmberty

July 20th, 2013, 21:36

i dont quite get what you are saying dragon master..
on the one hand you are telling us you knew all the facts and figures when you was buying the bar, and what it would cost to do what you wanted to do ..
then using the other hand you are telling us that after weighing up the altenatives you decided to sell ..
im glad you knew what you was doing, cause if you didnt all the people on here you have told to shut up might have a reason to laugh at you.

firecat69

July 20th, 2013, 23:28

"
I really do find it amusing how many of you critized the new Double Shot bar when it opened and said it would never work, it was too loud, it was too bright, the boys were not interesting, the music was terrible etc. etc. etc. Now I see in quite a few posts that this is becoming the new standard, and the bar is getting more popular as time goes on.[/quote]

And here of course is the point. Yes there were many people here who questioned the Changes that created Double Shot. And the jury is still out , his friends can not likely continue to support the payments he makes to many of the boys. High season will have to bring lots of customers and then we will know.

But the point is this new owner did something. He spent money and he made changes and he at least has a chance of success.

Pray tell what did the DragonMaster change at KD . Zero that I can see and of course that is why it is a failure!

Dodger

July 20th, 2013, 23:34

DragonMaster wrote:

Dodger wrote:

2.25 million baht is a lot of money for a sign...especially when the only thing holding it up is the last leg that its been perched on for the last 5 years.

Beer put a "For Sale" sign on Nice Boys back in May and stated he was tired of all the stress and wanted to start enjoying life a bit more. Knowing that, I'd be surprised if he had any intentions of buying the sign over at KD...evan at 1.0 million baht - which of course is what farang bar owners in Sunee end up selling their businesses for after reality sets in. Just ask Jim (previous owner of JimJimmyJames) or Edward (previous owner of Corner Bar) or Michael (owner of Corner Bar before Edward) or a dozen others.

DragonMaster Rersponse:

Another expert without a clue! Where did you see anything about Beer wanting to buy KD? Certainly not here in this thread. Rumors about Mrs. Sunee selling the plaza have been circulating for some time and without a basis in fact that any of you can come up with. All speculation and BS until we hear from the source. You guys wonder why bar owners don't listen to you, well here's a good example.

DragonMaster,

It's obvious from your comments that you're extremly upset about your loss of business which led to your current circumstance and nobody can blame you for that, but I hardly think you can blame the members of this forum for your demise.

I am certainly not an expert (on any subject) but not without clues as you suggested. I know many of the farang beer bar and gogo bar owners in Sunee Plaza personally and know what they paid for the business when they first showed up in town - and what they eventually sold it for a few years later. A farang who invests his money in one of these businesses in SP will end up losing money in the end, and it doesn't take an expert to observe this reality.

I never made any comment or insinuation regarding Beer wanting to buy your business - so your comment above is a bit bewildering., but if he did, I believe the place would have a chance of surviving - at least in the short term, because Beer knows what it takes to bring in the customers..."BOYS". I mean no offense by the comment I'm about to make - but every time I've stuck my head in Crazy Dragon over the past 5 years all I saw was a few boys appearing as if they were retired song teaw drivers sitting around punching buttons on their smart phones. Not exactly what one would expect to see at a gogo bar in SP...or in Thailand for that matter.

All that said - I wish you good luck with the sale of KD and hope that a Thai picks it up and breathes some life into it with or without the same sign.

DragonMaster

July 21st, 2013, 04:20

Knowing that, I'd be surprised if he had any intentions of buying the sign over at KD...evan at 1.0 million baht

Sorry Dodger, I took the above comment you made as an insulation that perhaps he might be interested in buying the bar. I'm really not upset at all. The loss of business right now is the fact that it is low season and something I fully expected. Regardless of what I say or try to explain, members of this forum like to post rumors and make up things that they know nothing about. This is what bothers me. I could care less what the members of this forum think I did or did not do with the business. The decision to sell the bar was made after a number of factors. One of these is risk management and was planned since the purchase.

Pray tell what did the DragonMaster change at KD . Zero that I can see and of course that is why it is a failure!

Probably nothing you would be able to understand and the bar is not a failure.

i dont quite get what you are saying dragon master..
on the one hand you are telling us you knew all the facts and figures when you was buying the bar, and what it would cost to do what you wanted to do ..
then using the other hand you are telling us that after weighing up the altenatives you decided to sell ..
im glad you knew what you was doing, cause if you didnt all the people on here you have told to shut up might have a reason to laugh at you.

Actually I do know what I was doing. The decision to re-model the bar was made well after the purchase and the cost for that was not known until last week. Maybe that clears it up for you.

I should think that the intelligent bar owners ensured the cameras actually got only a corner of a bar where nothing actually happened etc. So I think you are using this as an just another excuse for your failure to actually make a go of it.

How many new staff did you actually hire? How much did you spend on upgrading your new purchase and how much did you spend advertising your new investment? The questions are rhetorical!

Not an excuse for anything, just information for those who may not know. Many bars have more than one camera inside and the possibility exists that your actions could be recorded. If you can't keep your hormones in check in a public place, then you run certain risks. That's all I was pointing out. I'm glad your questions were rhetorical, since none of these are any of your business to begin with. Thanks for not posting any more on this.

So, why didn't you do just that?

It wasn't for a lack of trying. When I bought the bar we had a core of a few boys that had been there a long time. We put out ads for boys as well as word of mouth around Issan and Pattaya. Even with extra money offered for salaries and tips, boys did not want to come work in Sunee. I could have hired boys from Laos, Cambodia, and Burma, but that would be illegal and risk fines and closures. We did get a few new boys and actually had about 15 at one point. As much as everyone fantasizes about what should have happened. It didn't!

Now finally for all you busy bodies on the forum who think I'm upset and have failed, and the bar is long dead, I'll tell you what is really happening so perhaps some of the BS here will stop. As far as I know to date, Beer is not buying the Krazy Dragon, nor is anyone else who currently owns a bar in Sunee Plaza. The information in my last post after the replies to comments was for information. If it was useful, so be it, if not then ignore it, but stop speculating that I put it out there because I'm upset about the business. I am not. I told Mark and John when I bought the bar, that I would give it time and try to make a go of it, but if it wasn't working out that I would sell it. That is part of the equation now. My BF has been managing the bar since the purchase and has worked pretty hard to make it go and yes, with supervision. Some of you already know this, but for the rest of you, I now work full time for the Tourist Police here in Pattaya and it has taken most of my spare time. It's a lot of fun and allows me to keep up my technical skills. I am very happy here with the way things are working out. You will be seeing more of us around Sunee soon. I can't wait to hear what speculation and rumors will start when that happens.

timmberty

July 21st, 2013, 05:12

well that sounds promising dragon master .. a failed bar owner becomes a plastic copper , then tries to disadvantage the bars that are doing well in the place his own bar failed ..
you must be well proud of yourself.

firecat69

July 21st, 2013, 05:45

If it is so hard to get boys I wonder why MIcMy could re-open with lots of new boys and former Tom Yum could open with a new crop of boys. I hasten to add it is much harder to get boys to work in Sunee vs BTown area. Reason is simple, many boys feel the clientele in BTown treat them better (baht) tips, offs drinks etc.. There are many customers that frequent BTown that never have been or will ever go to Sunee for a mountain of reasons.

The reverse is certainly not true. Boys need to make money and they go where the money is . Ten days ago sitting in ToyBoys at 915pm there were 15 customers and in 30 minutes I watched 6 boys being taken off. Same at FunnyBoys . Don't get me wrong there are plenty of Bars in BTown not making it but the successful ones are doing quite well and their customer have little to worry about being caught in a raid. I do not remember the last raid in BTown.

I sympathize with someone running a GoGo Bar in Thailand. It is a very difficult project especially for someone who has no idea what he is doing.

But to try to tell us, that he is happy that he sunk some serious money into an already failing Bar , failed to turn it around and now is offering it For Sale for more then he paid strains credulity.

Nobody will pay anywhere near what he is asking , even if there was someone that thought they also had the magic formula.

Sunee is hanging on because of the success of a few Beer Bars and may survive but the glory days of past GoGo Bars is over.

Beer knows it which is why Nice Boys is going down hill.

Yes Sunee still has some Sleaze and that is attracting some customers but with that the owners must either pay more to the BIB or get raided. Not a very comfortable business to be in!!

DragonMaster wrote:
"I have no regrets about my purchase of the bar. Unlike most of you I knew what I was getting into. I purchased the bar with the hopes that it could be turned into what it was several years ago."

This is the hardest statement to reconcile. To turn it into what it was years ago would mean to make it the King of Sleaze. That is why it became popular and is the complete opposite of what the DragonMaster said he wanted. I just don't get it!!

colmx

July 21st, 2013, 06:27

To own a bar is something that i have always fantasized about...
Ever since my first days in Pattaya~12 years ago i always thought that i could run a better bar and have better boys than all the other bars...

However deep down i know that realistically the personality of the owner (and/or their manager) is what brings the customers into a bar

My personality would never attract any potential customers into a bar... and it seems to me that neither would dragonmasters.... his failure a s business owner it seems is down to us forum posters and not his ineptidude

DM - in my opinion... based on you most recent posts...you come across as one of the biggest ignoramouses that has ever posted on these boards
I didn't think it would be possible for anyone to beat Neal in terms of being a complete c*nt... but it sees that DM has completely surpassed him by his recent postings...

And to then it seems that as he had completely failed as a business owner... he will now basically join the local gestapo and try to undermine those that actually are being successful is pretty low...

Based on some of the recent UK documentaries covering the pattaya tourist police it seems that you will fit right into the circus as one of their dumb clowns :occasion9: :occasion9:

Lets hope that your foray into the plastic police is equally as (un)successful as your foray into being a bar owner!

scottish-guy

July 21st, 2013, 06:48

Have I got this right - a bar owner operating within the sex trade is officially working for the tourist police?

:sign5:

colmx

July 21st, 2013, 06:57

Have I got this right - a bar owner operating within the sex trade is officially working for the tourist police?

:sign5:
Yes!
And possibly helping to harass those businesses that are doing better than this!

Dodger

July 21st, 2013, 07:23

DragonMaster wrote:

I now work full time for the Tourist Police here in Pattaya and it has taken most of my spare time. It's a lot of fun and allows me to keep up my technical skills. I am very happy here with the way things are working out. You will be seeing more of us around Sunee soon. I can't wait to hear what speculation and rumors will start when that

I remember when Thomas (previous co-owner of Corner Bar) joined the tourist police motivated almost exclusively on being able to wear the uniform. Yes, I know it sounds crazy - but that was Thomas. Most of his contributions during his short-lived tenure with the tourist police involved standing around walking street guiding drunk tourists back to their hotels - or assisting at road blocks which was his favorite gig. I was at Corner sharing a beer with him one night when one of the local street kids known for his pick-pocketing skills sat across the soi waiting for his next victum. I asked Thomas why he didn't detain the boy and call the BIB using his tourist police badge as the means to accomplish this. Thomas just turned to me and said that he wouldn't get involved as Sunee Plaza is controlled by the local BIB who are networked with the local mafia.

GD...you may want to consider the advantages of just cutting the loss of your business and calling it a day. Losing money on a deal gone bad is one thing - but running around on mafia turf with a plastic badge and squirt gun could result in an even bigger loss.

Just a thought!

catawampuscat

July 21st, 2013, 10:09

A complete and utter failure. Face the facts, don't play games. Many learn
from their mistakes. Of course, gay men who are conservative right wingers
should play policeman and not run boy bars. Face the music
and stop making excuses.
Krazy was once the best, now the worst..

DragonMaster

July 21st, 2013, 17:59

Wow, the general ignorance here is really astounding regarding the Tourist Police. These are the guys that many of you would run to for help if something was stolen or you were beaten up by a Thai. It is unfortunate that you aren't able to appreciate the good things that this organization does, but I guess that would be expecting too much from some on this forum.

There are indeed some people who join the group for the wrong reasons and most have either left or have been asked to leave. Some of you referring to the organization as "Plastic Coppers" with "squirt guns" really do reinforce your ignorance. The guys I'm working with are pretty dedicated to helping out tourists with problems. Nobody is harassing the bars as is being suggested here, and we have been asked by Sunee management to have a presence. Being a bar owner, I can tell you that getting the Pattaya police to respond while a farang gets the crap beat out of him is pretty useless. I have seen it first hand and made the call to the police myself. It took over an hour for someone to show up. I just hope that none of you ever find yourself in that situation of having five or six Thai's beating the crap out of you, and if you do, you might even be grateful that the "Plastic Coppers with squirt guns" come to help you. Things in the Tourist Police have dramatically changed over the last several years.

Of course, gay men who are conservative right wingers should play policeman and not run boy bars. Face the music and stop making excuses.

Amusing, but hardly relevant to the discussion. Try harder to be relevant.

running around on mafia turf with a plastic badge and squirt gun could result in an even bigger loss.

As I said previously, a man without a clue. Who and where is the so called mafia some of you keep referring to?

However deep down i know that realistically the personality of the owner (and/or their manager) is what brings the customers into a bar!

Gee, all of the posters here who keep saying it's about the boys must not have your insight. I get along fine with the customers, so I think the other posters may have it right.

My personality would never attract any potential customers into a bar...

Really???? From the rest of your post, it just proves my point about everyone having an opinion.

DM - in my opinion... based on you most recent posts...you come across as one of the biggest ignoramouses that has ever posted on these boards
I didn't think it would be possible for anyone to beat Neal in terms of being a complete c*nt... but it sees that DM has completely surpassed him by his recent postings...

Thanks for the compliment Colmx. The level you have reached with your comments says a lot about you too.

To turn it into what it was years ago would mean to make it the King of Sleaze. That is why it became popular and is the complete opposite of what the DragonMaster said he wanted. I just don't get it!!

Of course you don't and you probably never will. I wasn't trying to make it what it was when Peter owned the bar and had explicit shows. Just keeping dicks out of customers faces, which many were uncomfortable with.

Reality in the marketplace is the reason I'm selling the bar, because unlike some of you, I will not spend all of my savings to support a venture that is not breaking even. That is a good business decision, not a failure. Let someone else come in and make it successful if they can. I'm not blaming the forum posters for market conditions in general. None of you are that important in terms of the world economy, unemployment, and travel trends even though you might think so.

It's really a shame that so many of you are unhappy with yourselves and your lives either at home or here in Pattaya. I still find it hard to understand, that if things are so bad in Thailand, why do you come here, or why do you live here. I am quite happy here in Thailand and maybe it's because my entire life doesn't revolve around bars and Sunee Plaza specifically. Regardless, I'm tired of trying to explain things to all of you, because in the end, you guys just don't get it, and no amount of explanation will apparently change that. :dontknow:

You guys all have fun whining, insulting, and trying to outdo each other. In the meantime, I have a life to live with my plastic friends, squirt gun, failed business and friends who do have a clue. :occasion9:

firecat69

July 21st, 2013, 19:15

You need to be reminded that you were the one who came to these forums and told everyone the big plans you had for bringing KD back to the top of the heap. You were the one who told everyone you didn't believe in the sleaze and you would have a better idea and you would fill us in as time went by. You were the one who asked for suggestions and then never bothered to listen to any of them.

Do I think anyone could have turned KD around without doing something drastic. No I don't. I think an operator like Beer with the ability to get boys might have had a chance. But no farang was going to have a chance

In fact you did nothing and the only thing you supposedly changed and really did not was the weenie wagging.

You are in complete denial if you don't think you failed. Of course you did. You invested a substantial amount of money and will probably get only a small % of that back if any. You were going to bring KD back to its former greatness. Instead it got continually worse under your direction and now only a fool would spend good money for what is just a shell with no business.

Does that make you a failure , of course not. But in this endeavor you most certainly Failed.

arsenal

July 21st, 2013, 19:28

I don't think anything can prepare a new bar owner for the goldfish bowl you will be running your business in. Hundreds of posters watching your every move.

Dodger

July 21st, 2013, 20:30

DragonMaster wrote:

dodger wrote:

running around on mafia turf with a plastic badge and squirt gun could result in an even bigger loss.

DragonMaster wrote:

As I said previously, a man without a clue. Who and where is the so called mafia some of you keep referring to?

I have to ask myself how any person could own and operate a gogo bar in one of the most corrupt environments on the planet and not be aware of his surroundings. Actually, I don't have to ask myself that question.

GD...Are you going to start your campaign as a Pattaya Volunteer Tourist Police Officer by squelling on the BIB who you pay hush money to in order to operate your pay-for-sex bar, or are you going to wait until after your bar is sold?

I have had the opportunity to meet several tourist police during my romps around Thailand and view them as serving a credible cause. Many are retired police officers or guys who worked in similar trades who take their work seriously and do in fact provide a good service to visiting tourists. But GD, in all honesty, I don't view you as being in the same category, as running an illegal business which promotes prostitution (such as your bar) is not exactly the type of prerequisite one would expect for becoming a tourist police officer...regardless of what you did in a previous life.

Furthermore, your statement about how they (the Tourist Police Organization) somehow suggested to you that your service would be needed in Sunee Plaza is not the least bit credible and I don't for a minute believe it. I believe you made this insinuation merely as a way to lash back at those who you blame for the loss of your business - and those are the people who prefer sleaze when they visit Sunee Plaza which didn't fit your business model at Krazy Dragon. You need to get a grip!

bucknaway

July 21st, 2013, 21:30

Of course you don't and you probably never will. I wasn't trying to make it what it was when Peter owned the bar and had explicit shows. Just keeping dicks out of customers faces, which many were uncomfortable with.

I wonder... Where are those customers who complained about the guys showing their dicks?

I think Gordon Ramsay would yell... "What Customers?! What Customers?! You're flipping place is empty mate!" (Is it empty? I don't know I am in the USA).
Gordon would continue to say, "If ya had customers you would not be on a message board insulting and building ill will with the community."

http://i44.tinypic.com/1z3pl5y.jpg

Manforallseasons

July 21st, 2013, 23:16

GD...Are you going to start your campaign as a Pattaya Volunteer Tourist Police Officer by squelling on the BIB who you pay hush money to in order to operate your pay-for-sex bar, or are you going to wait until after your bar is sold? (Quote)Dodger

DragonMaster you turn my stomach.

vnman

July 21st, 2013, 23:21

I was sitting in one of the bars last week when a man in civilian clothes walked by. When he passed by I could see the word POLICE on the back of his black shirt. My first response was *not repeating* A day later found out it was the Dragonmaster.

I agree that most of the posters here have no clue about running a bar in Sunnee or anywhere else in Pattaya for that matter, but fact is; neither do you DM. Statements like "I said I would give it a go." what kind of business model is that? Buying a bar in Pattaya is 99% of the times an emotional purchase, just like buying a timeshare. Your efforts to justifying it as a rational decision is just as unbelievable as the reason you give for wanting to/ or having joined the Tourist police.

A lot of people are in denial, but sunnee is sinking and the demises of your bar is just another part of that. I guess that the best decision you have made is not investing more money into a bottomless pit by refurbishing.

Another poster referred to Double Shot as an example. Please tell me how this bar is ever going to make its money back? The difference is that the owner hasn't bought the bar with that as priority. He bought a toy that he gets to play with when he wants, and he does. Anyone who thinks to do the same with a healthy business model will be hanging up a for sale sign sooner than he could have imagined.

Half of sunnee is empty or for sale. Please explain why that is. It's because there's no money to be made! And if you think I'm wrong, why not buy a bar? Not enough money? That's probably the reason why you think you could make some in sunnee.

Don't get me wrong, there is still some fun to be had in Sunnee but for me it's a weekly or bi weekly visit.

catawampuscat

July 22nd, 2013, 01:04

The history of farang boybar owners is full of disasters, arrogant know it alls, and all in denial to the
bitter end. Remember the genius who thought Sunee needed a lady boy gogo bar.
Peter, who started Krazy
Dragon was a true genius who understood what the customers wanted and gave it to them.
Anyone remember the karaoke bar for farangs and their bfs. A disaster.. Spotlight another disaster..
I am sure the members here can come up with many more ill-fated foolish concepts..

catawampuscat

July 22nd, 2013, 14:40

Need to correct comments crediting Peter with the concept and initial organization.
Mark played a major role and deserves kudos.:-)

DragonMaster

July 22nd, 2013, 20:05

Furthermore, your statement about how they (the Tourist Police Organization) somehow suggested to you that your service would be needed in Sunee Plaza is not the least bit credible and I don't for a minute believe it. I believe you made this insinuation merely as a way to lash back at those who you blame for the loss of your business - and those are the people who prefer sleaze when they visit Sunee Plaza which didn't fit your business model at Krazy Dragon. You need to get a grip

Dodger, spend some time learning how to read before you post, it might be helpful. Below is what I wrote, try reading it again slowly. I believe it clearly said that Sunee management asked us to come and have a presence here. The fact that you don't believe it for a minute is completely immaterial. You are quite welcome to march yourself over to the Sunee management office and inquire for yourself. After you've finished that task, you are welcome to come back here and admit that you were wrong. You're the one who really needs to get a grip, not me.

Nobody is harassing the bars as is being suggested here, and we have been asked by Sunee management to have a presence

For all of you that just love to bitch about everything and make up things that you don't know anything about, I'll make one last attempt, but I'm growing weary of the grade school antics by some of you on this board.
First, let me re-iterate for those of you who just don't want to believe anything other than your own BS, the decision to sell the Krazy Dragon does not mean it has failed, or that I failed. The decision to sell the bar was made after weighing the cost benefit of re-modeling the bar and the time it would require to recover those costs. Even the most simple minded among you should be able to understand this. Yes, I had great hopes and things didn't progress as quickly as I had hoped. The point is, I had a plan and I have stuck to it without an emotional attachment to the bar. If you believe that I have failed because I'm not spending every penny I've saved to make the bar successful regardless of the final outcome, then you really don't have a clue. The problem with some of you, is that the fantasies of what you expect do not meet reality. That resorts to ravings of how I failed, how Sunee Plaza is dying, and somehow that I am blaming the posters here, or that I'm bitter because I failed. I am not angry, bitter, resentful, or anything else that you guys want to throw out there. The posters who feel it necessary to say I'm this or that, don't know me, or my background. None of you are really in a position to make moral judgments about my involvement with the police or the bar, so get off of those pedestals. I bought the bar for my BF of 8 years so he would have a chance to run his own business. He is not farang, he is Thai. He is friends with Beer, Nuey, and Noi, all well known in Sunee Plaza. It is my investment, and I have discussions with him regularly about the bar and the plans for it. He is also not new to the bar business in Thailand and has worked in several bars in Bangkok and Pattaya as a waiter and manager. He certainly knows much more about the bar scene than most of you on here. It was a mutual decision not to spend more money to re-model it. It's that simple, really it is! For those of you who support the Krazy Dragon, you have my thanks. To the rest of you who continue to behave like grade school children, it is the customers who actually come and enjoy themselves that matter in the end, not the whiners who don't come, can't read, speculate, or fail to understand simple English and launch their pathetic personal attacks. You have plenty of choices when it comes to countries and bars to visit. Take advantage of it. If we decide to continue on and revert the club back to a go-go bar, it is our decision not yours. If we sell the bar, it is our decision not yours. If we close the bar and walk away, it is our decision, not yours. Fair enough?

I'm not sure why so many of you are so negative about the Tourist Police, but I suspect as with the bar scene, most of you don't have a clue what the mission of the TPV's or the FTPA is and what we do. The division provides a valuable service to both the Royal Thai Police and the tourists who come here and cannot speak Thai. Many of the Thai officers speak limited or little English, French, German, Russian, Chinese or whatever else comes along. We have people from many different countries that can help in that regard. Not every police officer in Thailand is corrupt, and not every police agency condones corruption. Yes, it exists and until their is enough money for the police to support themselves, I suppose it will continue and some will abuse the system.

In the end, I'm here to have a good time and spend the time with my Thai and farang friends. Some of you should get off the computer and try it sometime.

Nirish guy

July 22nd, 2013, 20:51

Dragonmaster said : I am not angry, bitter, resentful, or anything else that you guys want to throw out there.

But unfortunately you seem to come across that way every single time you post :-(

vnman

July 22nd, 2013, 21:53

The decision to sell the bar was made after weighing the cost benefit of re-modeling the bar and the time it would require to recover those costs. Even the most simple minded among you should be able to understand this.
I wish I was simpler then, because I would have made this decision before the purchase. But then again, I did a simple bachelor's in business and didn't get my education as waiter and manager at several special bars around town.

The point is, I had a plan and I have stuck to it without an emotional attachment to the bar.
If your plan was buying it to sell with a profit, kudos.

But You're right, I don't know you. I just went with the first impression you left on me and judged accordingly. Good luck selling the bar, shouldn't be to hard. :binky:

firecat69

July 22nd, 2013, 22:00

DragonMaster wrote:

"In the end, I'm here to have a good time and spend the time with my Thai and farang friends. Some of you should get off the computer and try it sometime"

What a joke. No one has spent more time on this forum answering other posters and doing everything to demean them. The DragonMaster is the one who needs to get off his computer.

He can't take the truth!!. He thanks all his customers!! He has none!! He actually thinks because he has essentially closed the bar although technically open that he has not failed. Anytime you invest money in a project and all it does is lose money , you have failed.

When your only hope is to find a sucker to bail you out , you have failed. KD was bad when he bought it and now it is worse. Because he is smart enough not to throw more good money after bad does not mean he didn't fail. He did!!

thaiguest

July 25th, 2013, 04:02

As the Original Poster of this topic I asked a simple question and it has given rise to a frenzy of response. This testifies to the iconic place that KrazyDragon held (and obviously still holds) in the Sunnee gay scene
The venue is now a shambles due partly to shambolic management style of the new owner (DM) but it has to be stated that he bought an declining product in the first place; it seems to me that the previous owners lost interest and energy some time before the sale and let the place go slow-mo. This is to be expected in the high-energy stakes of running sex-venues in Thailand.
DM bought into this particular sex-venue (with eyes wide open) and it would be expected that he would infuse new energy into the business and bring it to a more successful level. Instead he went off on a morality campaign against 'sleeze' which is not a definitive term ('sleeze to a southern-belt Baptist, for instance, is anything not involving man/woman and even then the missionary position only) - a campaign more typical of an american christian evangical wing-nut than that of an investor in a venue of prostitution.
So that brings us to the business end of the issue.
Investors in Sunnee cannot buy or sell the physical buildings. They can only sell on the customer base and the 'goodwill' of the business. This 'business' is made up of many factors; attractive boys, good management, a winning formula, a solid customer base and so on. The object of the exercise is, surely, to pay the rent, wages and utilities and after 3 or 6 years sell on to recoup the original investment and perhaps make a profit.
The response of DM is to patronise the posters on this forum as not being business savvy (a bit rich coming from him), implement the typical default plan of all failures (sell) and embark on a wider campaign of 'cleaning up' Sunnee by bring in (the mostly straight) Tourist Police.
Has he consulted with his fellow bar owners on this proposal?
Common curtesy to his neighbours-in-business would dictate that he should. I doubt if the other bar owners or their customers will take kindly to tourist police wandering around in what is not a tourist area but a privately owned district built up by the gay community over many years. It's up to the bar owners to contact the Sunnee office to voice their objections if indeed they find this proposal unacceptable, which I, as a customer, certainly do.
But it's probably another 'eyes wide shut' concept from Mr. DM.
But I wish him good luck in his efforts to sell KD on. , that is if he has any product left to sell.

christianpfc

August 5th, 2013, 22:43

colmx

August 6th, 2013, 05:27

However deep down i know that realistically the personality of the owner (and/or their manager) is what brings the customers into a bar

I don't think so. For me, there are three reasons to go to a bar: boys, boys and boys.

For most bars I visit, I don't even know who owns them, or only because I read the owner on the forum.

What i meant to say in that post... was that obviously the boys are what attracts people into the bar... but if the owner is a boor or an ignoramous... most people will not be back...

bucknaway

August 6th, 2013, 05:45

I think it is fair to say that KrazyDragon is just going to circle the bowl until it finds new ownership.

SimpleSoul

August 6th, 2013, 07:31

I just read this thread and feel a lot of you should feel ashamed; perhaps I am too serious as well as too simple...

Dear DM,

Why bother? Why bother to explain yourself to these people? I just do not see why you need to post a response. It maybe masochistic in some sense; it may be because you know some of these people and so see the need to defend your honour. Don't waste your time. Your comments reveal what you think of them; you are probably right with what you say about their 'insights' into running a business in Thailand, in Pattaya, in Sunee... Do you really think you need to explain yourself to this ill-informed critics? Drop it. For sure, the customer base, or potential customer base obviously will have almost no idea about what is good for a business. ONLY, the business owner can know for sure. I take what you have written at face value. If you are not being wholly truthful, then that is your affair, I for one will not second guess. I mean, why would I feel the need to bother?

Dear Critics,

Leave the man alone, for goodness sake. A few of you might benefit from glancing in the mirror before spewing out your vitriol. Who gives a f*** if, as some of you believe, some crazy guy is just throwing his money away?? Why do you disbelieve him with such ferocity? What is wrong with you all? As DM wrote, some of you do need to get out more.

By the way, what on Earth is wrong with the idea that the tourist police might be a bit more active in Sunnee? Why is that a negative? It must be a positive and I suppose if you think otherwise then you are at the wrong end of society. I write this in full knowledge of police corruption here, but this is neither unique to Thailand nor is it all pervasive and it is NOT a reason not to have the added security of police wandering around.

Clearly, the halcyon days of yore, often cited here by people with seemingly long memories, are long behind us... and things change. Get Over It! The market is changing irretrievably. A business owner has to think about not only the supply side side (boys/product) but also on the demand side (paying customers). On the supply side these 'boys' clearly either want to have a REAL life not prostituting themselves (at least I hope this reason is growing) or they can freelance through GayRomeo, Jack'd, Grindr, Badoo, Fridae, Recon, Gaydar, Scruff, FaceBook, Instagram, Twitter or whatever. A business owner has to operate in this environment. On the demand side you have increasingly poor Europeans and other westerners (exchange rate changes) and largely poor Russians (low end tourists). Unless the market dynamic changes then such bars face slow deaths. On top of this the minimum wage offers people better job opportunities than selling themselves and denying themselves their proper self respect. Besides these factors there are other macro economic dynamics. For example, the authorities are trying to change the economic status of Pattaya and moving us up the value chain by, for example, trying to be more cultural and attract higher class tourists... Obviously, such flesh entertainments will not fit in. Sure, some corners will thrive, for the sleazers that still want to visit, BUT you get that everywhere anyway. So, this is a changing environment and longing for the so-called good old days is just plain pointless.

Again, the above is just my humble opinion, but mainly my plea is for you all to please relax...

Finally, isn't the idea of this forum supposed to be, at the basic level, a support resource for the gay community? The continual frenzied bitching about this, that and the other is so damned boring. I can handle boring BUT it seems to me to be a colossal waste of time and effort.

The OP asked a simple question that did not need all this hatred to spew out.

Sadly, I know and understand that my view of the world is too simple. People like to be hunched at their computer and write things in a vile and of course largely anonymous way. The anonymity providing them the space to be just horrible, negative and, for gays of course, super bitchy. So, I end with a plea for a lot of you to please get a life.

[s m i l e].

bucknaway

August 6th, 2013, 08:30

If you disagree with something I said, I sure would like to know what it is and why you would think I should not have said it on a message board.

Marsilius

August 6th, 2013, 16:02

...By the way, what on Earth is wrong with the idea that the tourist police might be a bit more active in Sunnee? Why is that a negative? It must be a positive and I suppose if you think otherwise then you are at the wrong end of society... Sadly, I know and understand that my view of the world is too simple.

The trouble is not that we who think otherwise are at the "wrong end of society", but that we suspect that the self-nominated do-gooders of the Tourist Police are quite likely to be people who like wearing uniforms, throwing their weight around, acting in a superior manner and, as such, would be predisposed to perceive us in that way.

Genuine police personnel in many countries must now go through some sort of gay awareness programme, whereas the Thailand Tourist Police are likely, I would suggest, to bring all their unreconstructed and authoritarian (and quite possibly homophobic?) instincts to bear as they swagger around Sunnee Plaza.

DragonMaster

August 6th, 2013, 17:53

SimpleSoul,
Thank you for your words of support. This board is full of members who just cannot live without spewing out negative bullshit whenever the opportunity presents itself. Regardless of how many times you try to explain yourself or give logical explanations, there is always some superior genius here who is waiting to pounce on a post. Some posters here are handicapped when it comes to reading what was posted before spewing out a response, and others are just plain assholes plain and simple. Most of the posters do not live in Thailand, some have never even been here, and others don't come often enough to be important to a business. Some who do live here really can't afford it and have become bitter old queens who cannot leave.

Marsillius,
What an ignorant post. What do you really know about the Tourist Police in Thailand? From your post, nothing. We all know that there is a very good reason to perceive some of the people who frequent Sunee Plaza to be on the "wrong end of society".

we suspect that the self-nominated do-gooders of the Tourist Police are quite likely to be people who like wearing uniforms, throwing their weight around, acting in a superior manner and, as such, would be predisposed to perceive us in that way.

I have a big news flash for you. The uniforms we wear are hot in this climate, and the only weight I see being thrown around are from those members who might eat a little too much. Look in the mirror about superior attitudes along with some of your fellow posters. The Tourist Police division here has changed a lot over the last five years. The volunteer force of both Thai's and farangs is not what it once was when Big Trouble in Tourist Thailand was filmed and shown in the U.K. Members are now required to submit criminal history checks and undergo three months or more of training before being allowed to serve with the Royal Thai Police. Many of us including myself come from either a police or military background.

Genuine police personnel in many countries must now go through some sort of gay awareness programme, whereas the Thailand Tourist Police are likely, I would suggest, to bring all their unreconstructed and authoritarian (and quite possibly homophobic?) instincts to bear as they swagger around Sunnee Plaza

It might interest you to know that there are gays actively serving in the Tourist Police Division and many others who are gay friendly. I can't imagine any of the guys I work with coming into Sunee and swaggering around as you suggest. We were not asked to come to Sunee Plaza to harass the bars or the customers, but for another entirely different reason which could affect some of you who might actually be on the wrong end of society, or be victims of theft. Here's another news flash for you, the Tourist Police ARE genuine police and why would you think they all need to be made aware of gays in Thailand. Give me a break! This is not the U.K, or the United States. There is far less homophobia in Thailand which is why most of you like coming here. The only thing I can see that would make anyone homophobic is reading all of the bullshit and attacks that are posted here regularly.

If any of you are really interested in why the TP were asked to come, you can send me a PM and I'll be glad to explain.

The Krazy Dragon is under new management and is once again a go-go bar effective August 1st, so give it a rest.

anonone

August 6th, 2013, 18:17

SimpleSoul,

If any of you are really interested in why the TP were asked to come, you can send me a PM and I'll be glad to explain.

The Krazy Dragon is under new management and is once again a go-go bar effective August 1st, so give it a rest

Wow. Talk about burying the lead...literally at the end of the post. :tongue3:

Care to expand a little bit about this DM? Go-go bar like the old KD? Something different? Is the new management someone we know?

As today is August 6, anyone in Pattaya care to wander by KD and see what it going on now?

bucknaway

August 6th, 2013, 18:55

I wonder if the owner stands outside the door of the bar and throws stones at passersby demanding they come into the bar. Why not? That seems to be what he is doing here.

Marsilius

August 6th, 2013, 19:35

Had you, DM, read my post - or even the extract you actually quoted! - just a little more carefully, you would have understood that I was writing about the perception that many of us have of policemen and some of the people who choose it as a job. Perhaps that is based on the experiences many of us will have had in the days before the police were forced to become more gay-friendly.

What you say of the reality of policing in Thailand may actually be true, for all I know, but the police have a long way to go in convincing many of us that the old homophobic attitudes have been abandoned and they need to address that negative perception if they want to be seen in the way you suggest.

The fact that you crow about the fact that the tourist police attracts ex-military and ex-police cuts no ice. Are we supposed to think that all of those are necessarily ipso facto good people? I used to sit close enough to one ex policeman on the beach at Jomtien to hear his conversations but to repeat their subject matter here would breach the board guidelines. I also heard him threaten to kill someone with his police-issue firearm. Thankfully, he was arrested a year ago for an (again unmentionable) offence in Pattaya - though, as so often happens, while the arrest was reported in the Pattaya Mail along with pictures of him in flagrante, a search of their website reveals nothing about any subsequent court case or punishment.

arsenal

August 6th, 2013, 20:35

Am I the only one who finds simplesouls' and dragonmasters' style of writing eerily similar? Is there something we should be told?

a447

August 6th, 2013, 20:43

No.
And yes.
But don't hold your breath!

lukylok

August 7th, 2013, 00:57

Passed in front of KD tonight at 9.30 PM and the door was closed.
No mention of new management.

bucknaway

August 7th, 2013, 01:25

Damn it luke! We want a report on the goings on! If a weed grows in the cracks of the pavers we should be told! How very dare you be so selfish as to enjoy yourself and not satiate our thirst for all that you are drinking in? I'm hurt! Nay, I'm diss appointed. For shame!

Manforallseasons

August 7th, 2013, 01:56

To Serve And Protect!

colmx

August 7th, 2013, 02:39

The Tourist Police division here has changed a lot over the last five years. The volunteer force of both Thai's and farangs is not what it once was when Big Trouble in Tourist Thailand was filmed and shown in the U.K. Members are now required to submit criminal history checks and undergo three months or more of training before being allowed to serve with the Royal Thai Police.

Thanks for the clarification on this DM

I have to say that "Big Trouble in Tourist Thailand" in tourist thailand did no favours for the Tourist police volunteer division...
It made them out to be rent-a-cops and complete bozos

It was obviously juts a vehicle for one of its stars to promote his media business and help become the Honarary British consul

And the worst part was the subsequent arrest of the Pattaya "SWAT team" aka "Pattaya Police Counter Terrorist Unit" not long after the broadcast of the show...
http://www.pattayaone.net/pattaya-news/13961/founder-of-pattaya-swat-team-arrested-by-immigration-police/

DragonMaster

August 7th, 2013, 02:55

Am I the only one who finds simplesouls' and dragonmasters' style of writing eerily similar? Is there something we should be told?

Yes, you are hallucinating. Go take your meds and get some rest.

SimpleSoul

August 7th, 2013, 07:35

It seems I touched a raw nerve by mentioning the wrong end of society. Of course, this statement was included to be provocative. It worked. Anyway, simple as I am, I still maintain that the gay community needs to fit in. We can not expect to be a special case and not have the tourist police overseeing Sunnee or elsewhere. I am not a prude by any stretch but I do think some of the guys who visit Sunnee etc could show some self respect and deference to Thai society; get a room for goodness sake -- there are plenty and they are cheap as chips.

Some clarifications:

Buck, I was not alluding to anything specific that you may have written. My post was meant to be a general observation to the posters on this thread. I agree with you that you have the right to pass comment on what people write, of course!!! Perhaps the new management at KD will come here to try and retrieve some goodwill and lob back a few of those stones you mentioned.

On the police. I am not an apologist for the police. I have never had a run-in with them so perhaps my life is truly very simple. I am properly respectful when I am asked anything and I have found that to date I am not troubled as some people appear to have been. To be crystal clear, I am not necessarily saying that you may have brought problems on yourselves with bad attitude but some of the words written here do hint at some attitude problems to authority.

Marsillus, I did find what was written about homophobia in the Thai police and some of your other observations a bit disturbing. But, as with DM, I will accept what was written; why would anybody lie? Rhetorical. However, can you please share with me, at least, why you make such statements? It also seems you have a problem with people volunteering. I assume this is based on direct personal negative experience, could you please share and expand upon why these 'self-appointed do gooders' are such a problem? And what is all that silliness about they are only in it because they like wearing uniforms? Even if it is true, who cares? Do you TRULY think that the police authorities in Thailand would allow uniform queens to join if they had no aptitude at all for either volunteering or tourist police work? Again, do you have personal evidence or is all this just your own prejudice? Gay awareness training???? I am genuinely interested to know more about this. Does this happen? if so, can you share where? In your post, you used phrases like 'I suggest' and 'quite likely' suggesting this is just thinking out loud sort of stuff. Can you please give some background?

Similarities of writing style with DM... well, that was not something I expected. if you mean he has re-used some of my phrasing in his 2 subsequent replies, that is true. As to the veiled suggestion or hint about 'is there something we should be told' - yes, I will tell you not to look for silly pointless conspiracies where there are none. Just to be crystal clear I have no connection whatsoever with DM. Frankly, I wouldn't know any of you even if I tripped over you. Anyway, thanks for those couple of comments as I feel like I have arrived on this forum. Oh, for any doubters, please just read what I have posted previously.... Now I feel like I am trying to make this point too strongly... Hahaha, can't win.

Manforallseasons, is the guy on the left in yellow Russell Grant???

Anyway, thanks all for responding; nothing worse than writing something and sitting here glued to the laptop waiting for a reply and nothing comes..... Oh no, sorry, I don't do that, right!!!!

S m i l e.

arsenal

August 7th, 2013, 08:57

simplesoul: Ok, I accept your ecplaination. Anyway according to GB KD is about to become a gogo bar again. If this is the case then let's give it time to get going.

Marsilius

August 7th, 2013, 12:08

...Gay awareness training???? I am genuinely interested to know more about this. Does this happen? if so, can you share where?

The following link provides information that will make you a less simple - if a rather better informed - soul.

http://www.chuckstewartphd.net/Police.html

There are plenty of other similar projects that can be easily found by Googling.

Captain Swing

August 7th, 2013, 12:29

. Anyway according to GB KD is about to become a gogo bar again. If this is the case then let's give it time to get going.

With all due respect to GB, does something in Pattaya not happen until he says it does? DragonMaster himself announced this yesterday IN THIS THREAD. Didn't that count?

arsenal

August 7th, 2013, 13:45

My apologies. Due to their unremitting length and sometimes tetchy nature I don't bother to read DMs posts all the way through.

MARK

August 9th, 2013, 15:59

So has any one dropped in the the KD since the new opening on the 1st August curious to know how its doing and what are the changes. :dontknow:

TOQ

August 9th, 2013, 16:01

I will be back in Pattaya in a couple of days and I will check

lukylok

August 10th, 2013, 00:45

I was in KD tonight and can confirm the return to the previous formula. The boys are not shy and very willing to play ! And very VERY glad to be back to the old system. Most of the old boys have emigrated to other bars, but there are new faces, some very attractive.

firecat69

August 10th, 2013, 01:23

All of a sudden the DragonMaster has had a conversion. What a surprise no principals when it comes to his bank account!!

bucknaway

August 10th, 2013, 01:41

Be nice, he made a mistake. The last thing he wants is a message board full of folks saying "I told you so."

firecat69

August 10th, 2013, 03:03

Sorry I don't agree. He used this board extensively to say he did not like sleaze and there would be no sleaze in his bar. He made it vey plain that he did not like it on moral grounds much more then business grounds .

So now it appears his morals have changed and it has nothing to do with I told you so. In fact I am not a fan of sleaze but that is fine because if I don't want to see it then I just don't frequent the Bars that have it.

I remember the days when KD was packed and had many boys. It was a fun place because of the energy . That was a long time before this most recent purchase. If it returns to its Glory days that would be great for the area. But there is no doubt the only chance of that happening is Sleaze.

Manforallseasons

August 10th, 2013, 03:32

He has to be the number one idiot farang ever to do business in Sunee!

bucknaway

August 10th, 2013, 03:56

a447

August 10th, 2013, 09:30

The sad part is that the owner can't seem to post in a way that will win over the the people he needs to make his business profitable.

You are presuming that all his potential customers are members of this board. That is probably not the case.

arsenal

August 10th, 2013, 09:35

MFAS: I think there have been many candidates for that title over the years.

Buckie: I agree with you. Let's not give the guy a kicking because he wanted to run his business his own way.

DM: STOP posting. One, it pisses customers off. Two, it will turn you nuts.

Firecat: We haven't seen you here for a while. You haven't changed. Unfortunately.

MARK

August 10th, 2013, 15:34

One thing that I quickly learned was that you do need to win over the forum boards, there are far more people that read them than post. And no they are only one part of a business advertising tool, I would not say they can make or brake a business in Pattaya but they can be the difference between profit and loss a very low season and no season. The KD web sight was always an invaluable tool for promoting the business I did almost no work on the sight my self and left the work to some one that can spell lol I will not mention his name as I have not asked if I could but I do believe letting the sight fall away can not have helped the business.

I live in hope that the KD will one day return to the business it was a few years ago :alc: .

firecat69

August 10th, 2013, 16:08

MFAS: I think there have been many candidates for that title over the years.

Firecat: We haven't seen you here for a while. You haven't changed. Unfortunately.

I really could care less what you think as I am sure you care less what I think. That is why they have the ignore feature. Please feel free to use it!!!

arsenal

August 10th, 2013, 18:07

Firecat: Ignore you, goodness me no. You are perhaps our seventh best troller. But with hard work and a few timely deaths you could rise to the lofty heights of third or fourth in a few years.

a447

August 10th, 2013, 22:22

It's great to see that KD has reverted to the old sleaze. That's what Sunee is famous for. BTW what has happened to the old Goodboys bar since it closed.? Any sign of a new establishment opening soon, or is it still in darkness? Last time I was in Sunee the wanking bar had moved across the street directly opposite the old bar.

bucknaway

August 10th, 2013, 22:35

I think I will be glad also. I wonder what the drink prices are? The website shows conflicting information.

lukylok

August 11th, 2013, 01:25

Drink prices are 140 if my memory is good. That was not my first concern after a very nice visit.
Good Boys is open again, opposite KD, as an open bar, but there is a screen......
Not visited yet.

bucknaway

August 11th, 2013, 03:58

:scratch: Lukylok, I am starting to think you are not as innocent as I thought you were....

a447

August 11th, 2013, 10:39

Good Boys is open again, opposite KD, as an open bar, but there is a screen......

So what happened to the bar with the screens that opened next to KD, after Goodboys closed? Are there now 2 bars with screens?? Do the boys work back and forth between the 2 bars??

Or is there only 1 bar?

The KD of old resembled Goodboys at times; there were often farang publicly chuck-wowing the boys at the table. I know it was pretty dark in there, but still, .... And I'm not suggesting KD go down that path, but when I used to be a frequent visitor, I eventually got tired of the format - boy comes around, squats down in front of you, pulls out his cock and puts his hand out for a tip. He'd then continue on his way and eventually wind back at your table, where he'd do the same.

So I hope they keep that format but can also come up with something else to keep the customers interested.

DragonMaster

August 11th, 2013, 20:05

Sorry I don't agree. He used this board extensively to say he did not like sleaze and there would be no sleaze in his bar. He made it vey plain that he did not like it on moral grounds much more then business grounds .

Show me a post where I objected on moral grounds. Perhaps you should re-visit sunnee-gogo-bars-cleaned-t27657.html (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/sunnee-gogo-bars-cleaned-t27657.html) and read your own moral judgments.

As a matter of fact, I said that it was OK for the boys to play discreetly which is hardly an objection on moral grounds.

firecat69

August 12th, 2013, 07:55

As usual you pick one thing out but fail to comment on the fact that you said over and over and over again you did not like sleaze and there would be no sleaze in your Bar period.

Try to deny that!!!!!!!!1

This is just one of your moralizing many many quotes. " If you just have to see boys wanking and waving in front of you, go to the nearest pharmacy, grab
yourself a pack of Kamagra, find a good Thai porno, and make a vist to Gay Romeo or better yet, take matters into your own
hands."

Now all of a sudden it is perfectly all right for the boys to be waving their weenies and the customers touching them with their hands..

What Bullshit will you spew next?

DragonMaster

August 12th, 2013, 14:29

Well Firepuss, I guess you just can't help yourself. You have taken a quote from a post I did 9 months before I took over the Krazy Dragon. It had nothing to do with KD, but was in response to the posts regarding Boyztown and some of the problems bar owners could have catering to the wishes of a few posters. If you define sleaze as the boys wagging their dicks right in front of your face, that's what I objected to and that's what the boys were instructed not to do. If it's going on again, it's because I haven't been there to see it, but the policy has not changed in that regard. Regardless, you have said several times that you don't like sleaze so what goes on in KD or any other bar shouldn't concern you, other than the fact you're trying to be relevant by posting your own self serving bullshit to get attention. What a loser.....

firecat69

August 12th, 2013, 16:01

You are the unbelievable loser!!.. In the same post you say you don't allow weenie wagging but if its going on , its is because you are not there.

What a joke. It's your Bar, get your Ass in there and run it the way you have told everyone you were going to.

You are perfect example of why so many Bar owners in Pattaya fail. It's their Bar but they can't even spend 4 hours a night in there when there are customers to see it is being run the way they want it.

Then they find all sorts of reasons for their Failure except their own incompetence and laziness!!!!!!

Dodger

August 12th, 2013, 17:47

The "sleaze factor" in any boy bar, regardless of its location and venue, is the result of the atmosphere the owner decides to create and manage.

Some people would suggest that any establishment that operates in the sex-for-pay industry is sleazy simply based on the venue itself, but to most gay farang punters (including myself) the sleaze factor is nothing more than the owners preference for how his staff should conduct themselves in the process of luring customers. If the bar encourages its staff to promote groping - then the customers the bar lures will be those who enjoy groping. If the bar provides a venue where "looking" and not "touching" is encouraged - then the customers the bar lures will be those who enjoy looking.

Regardless of the "sleaze factor" the success of any gay bar (beer bar or gogo) relies totally on the quantity and quality of the boys the bar staffs...nothing more and nothing less. It's this one very basic principal that makes the difference and nothing else really matters. I've known bar owners who spent big money fitting their bar with new sofa's, colorful lighting and all sorts of sparkly decorations who end up having to jerk the sign off their door due to lack of business, when, at the same time, the bar down the soi which is dark and dreary, has sofa's with the stuffing falling out and a hung nam door which is falling off its hinges, is packing in the customers. This phenomenom is for one reason and one reason only...they have the boys.

I for one didn't frequent KD much in the past and it's not because the boys were wagging their peters in my face - it was because the boys simply were not my preference, and if they were, I would be the last one complaining. I'm not suggesting to KD that they start staffing the type of boys I like because that would be obsurd, but I am suggesting that they (KD) consider providing the quantity and quality of staff that alure the most customers.

Opening a boy bar is an extremly challanging process, especially for a farang who is not tapped into the boy supply-chain. The Thai owned bars rely heaviliy on the abilities of their mamasans to recruit (and keep recruiting) fresh talent. This typically involves hiring a mamasan (or mamasans) who are networked with the boys who live in or near their home towns in Isaan or some other region. When you see a mamasan just sitting around out in front of bar empty of customers and he/she isn't on the mobile phone making connections then he/she is probably not the best candidate for recruiting boys. A good mamasan, as much of a pain in the ass that she can be at times, is worth her weight in gold.

I personally believe that Krazy Dragon can be sucessful, evan more successful than it was with the previous owner, if they can secure the services of a few good mamasan recruiters and focus on staffing a broad selection of boys in sufficient quantity. A bar the size of KD should plan to staff 30-40 boys at a minimum. I know, easier said than done. The interior of the bar always appeared upscale to me and the people inside were always friendly. If the boys are there the customers will come (including me), and if they are being encouraged to let it all hang out - than it would just that much better. Keep the staff +18, perform random drug screening, don't allow underaged patrons, avoid illegal sex shows and keep the license current. None of these things drive business - they only jeoparize it and promote further corruption which is the driving force of the decay we see in Sunee Plaza.

Nirish guy

August 12th, 2013, 18:16

Speaking as someone who also runs a business ( and I can't believe I'm doing this) but in defence of bar owner/s in general - so WHO exactly is paying for these 30-40 boys and the one or two manasans that it is suggested they recruit ? Not to mention the licence/s, the tea money to the police ( and everyone and anyone else who believes they're entitled to a cut of your profits) all while the 5 or 10 customers you're maybe lucky to get in to your bar in low season sit and drink their 100 baht beers - very slowly and all whilst complaining that they know a place where the beer is only 80 baht and yes ok that's 40 miles away and isn't isn't a go go bar but if THEY can do it why can't here !?

So while some of the ideas above may be sound in terms of what would make for a fun bar they should to be fair to the owners also have SOME basis in the "real world" - and THAT I believe is where DM is at as I'm sure he would agree that to do such things would be lovely perhaps - BUT to do so AND to make a profit while doing so is a WHOLE other story maybe and just how long does one keep pumping ones money into a BUSINESS where you can SEE that it's not turning a profit and being run as it is at present probably wont in the future ?

And that's not to say that KD can't be made profitable in the future by the way, but just FOR WHATEVER reason not now and not by it's present owner it seems, so, after his best efforts (be they good or bad) DM decided he's invested enough money for his liking to enable him to find where his business plan ( or lack of one perhaps) is taking him and so is going to stop - or at least try something else ( or some might say back to where he started again - and perhaps about to repeat exactly the same judgment calls that maybe some think were the start of his problems in the first place - but they are of course his calls to make and at some point he will have to accept that too in that maybe some of his judgement calls HAVE resulted in things ending up where they have as in all businesses the buck ultimately (should) stop at the top.

On the other hand I'm sure DM would say "ah, but if you only KNEW the TRUE costs involved in running the / a bar the way you would like me to then YOU too would not say carry on as you suggest" and I guess only HE knows the answer to that one point and as it IS his money it's his call and if and when he sells up well at the rate Sunee bars change hands we'll soon see what the next guy ( and the next guy and the next guy perhaps) make of it - and THEN I guess we'll maybe be in a position to know who was right and who was wrong all along perhaps ?

Dodger

August 13th, 2013, 08:25

Nirishguiy wrote:

Speaking as someone who also runs a business ( and I can't believe I'm doing this) but in defence of bar owner/s in general - so WHO exactly is paying for these 30-40 boys and the one or two manasans that it is suggested they recruit ?

Answer: A person who intends on maintaining a profitable business.

Operating a boy bar without a solid plan regarding staffing definately places the business in a high risk category, and I'm not for a minute suggesting that operating a boy bar in the current economic climate is a wise move at all, I'm just trying to emphasiza the fact that without the boys the business is likely to fail. If you open a donut shop intending to sell donuts - you need the donuts to sell first.

Beer, owner of Nice Boys, has approximately 30-40 boys working the stage on various nights, although staffs none of them. Beer changed his business model 2 years ago when he found himself competing with web sites like Gayromeo which he felt contributed to the decline in business. The boys who work at NB are now considered suncontractors (freelancers) and can come and go as they choose, although are not paid salaries. His plan was brilliant. He was apparently able to afford the overhead expenses you referred to, and at the same time have a good supply pf boys to satisfy a steady steady of customers. I know NB is now up for sale, but from what I understand it's not because of a failing business - it's because Beer, after 15 years of working 7 days a week at various bars in Sunee Plaza (including NB's) is ready for a break.

It's a tough proposition any way you carve the turkey. You can't have the customers without the boys - and you can't get the quantity or quality of boys without the customers. I believe that staffing a bar on a subcontract basis creates a win-win situation for both the boys and the bar owner, and finding the right mamasan to do the recruiting is imperative.

My hat's off the GD for making a second attempt and only make these kinds of remarks because I would like to see him succeed.