Is the USA watching us?

[bucknaway]

Well I am sure you have heard that the USA is storing nearly everything going through USA Servers is being stored indefinitely to be sifted through now and again as technology gets better, so that they can help find those doing illegal things.

How is this related to Thailand? Well, this program is focused on countries and Thailand is one of them. Also, if you send encrypted files, those are set at high priority to capture and most everyone in the Tech industry says that encryption only has a life span of 10 years before technology catches up and renders todays encryption weak at best.

And to think that many people who help to build the Google Search Engine are now working for the US Government helping them build and search the cache of information the government is capturing.

Any thoughts? Now remember what Mick Jagger said.. "Obama may not be here, but I am sure he is listening!"

[cdnmatt]

Personally, I think the program is far larger and more widespread than most of us would be comfortable knowing. I also think it's quite naive to believe this is a US-only operation. For example, take a look at the new data center in Utah the NSA has coming online in a few months:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... a-facility (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/14/nsa-utah-data-facility)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center

I would imagine this survelliance network spans far more than just the US. What I'm curious about is, how many countries (and which ones) are signed up, and feeding data into the NSA's network? Is it just a few Western countries, or do they have like 150 countries signed up?

[arsenal]

They're watching us, they're watching each other. It's what they do, watch, look, listen. Churchill called it The Great Game and The Wall of Mirrors. For an excellent understanding of how it (sort of) works you can't beat Frederick Forsythe novels.

[travelerjim]

Bucky...

Recent reports just in from NSA-SpyBiden says...

You did not make your bed Wednesday, Thursday & Friday morning...
... you are failing to pick up your "Tony the Tiger" pajama shorts as well... :dontknow:
and Frosted Flakes are strewn all over the bedroom floor.

You know the rules of the game...get in line Bucky! :violent1:

Joe :glasses7:

NOTE: If you believe this has been sent to you in error...
call 1-NSA-SpyBiden.

[Krazy4thai]

The only thing that bothers me about this post is the factoid that you say it's the USA that's doing the watching. if it was to turn out to be true, then is the US a responsible enough country to be in control of this data.... I think not.
But my distaste for America and nearly everything it represents is for a different time.
These big brother scenarios have been hinted at and discussed since the inception of the internet. We know that China and some less than happy to be freedom wielding countries can already moderate internet usage.
So as long as the US doesn't interfere with my viewing preferences let them peck away at my internet use, collect what they want and store it away somewhere. It will affect me naught.
In Australia at least the government has all the info it could need about it's citizens all neatly stored away in bits & bytes somewhere. Wanting to put this info on an ID card (the Australia card) had the civil libertarian freak show leaping on and off their soapboxes

I know it's not about the info they already have, it's the idea that they would know more judging from the internet sites we visit. So be it, I am involved in nothing dodgy or illegal and dont care if people know which sites on the internet interest me.
If this sort of thing helps root out criminals and other nasties it's got to be a good thing, we the "good" citizens of the world have nothing to fear. My only objection would be that the US would be in control of the whole shebang, until they could leverage it to their own advantage of course.

All that being said I believe that until it is positively proven in some way to be fact these factiods are best kept on the Orwellian bookshelf. I have yet to meet a technophobe who didn't blame his fear on " Big Brother". :happy7:

[Surfcrest]

You might find that popular opinion within the United States and indeed many other Western countries might overall agree with the practise of тАЬmonitoringтАЭ or gathering information in bulk and from all sources as an effective and accepted method for neutralizing terrorism. While you may not think it is anyoneтАЩs business to know anything about you, we know that this is the same shield terrorists hide behind and so by giving the government access to everything impedes the terroristтАЩs ability to hide anywhere.

You need only to take a look at the Intelligence Operation alone that was mobilized to track Bin Laden over a dozen years or so to see that if that was ever expanded to track non-essential information on any or all of us, the amount of resources that would be required to process this information would be astronomical. The study of information requires a great deal of тАЬpeopleтАЭ resources and unfortunately that isnтАЩt a reality for any government, including the United States. Computers can capture data from billions of sources and provide great tools to organize and sort this data for us, but its people who are required analyze this dataтАж.and make sense of it all.

No doubt this post alone has caught someoneтАЩs attention, if only for a second by virtue of the fact I mentioned the words тАЬBin LadenтАЭ. Conspiracy Theorists have always wildly over exaggerated the powers and capabilities of government.

I think the real question needs to be not that the government is collecting this information, but rather what are they doing with this information. This may be a question that needs to be repeated again and again over the ages, from administration to administration, as the world changes and as priorities changes alongside itтАж.to ensure this information is always used to provide value to society as a whole.

Surfcrest

[scottish-guy]

Thats all very well Surfcrest - but I think one of the issues for ordinary people here in the UK is that whilst we don't object too much to the Americans spying on their own citizens, we sure as hell object to them spying on us.

Another concern is that the sheer volume of snooping seems to be far, far in excess of that which can reasonably justified as "intelligence-led" operations to prevent terrorism and is more akin to having your next door neighbour come into your house while you're out to ferret through all your private papers just for nosiness.

The only people who will not object to this kind of Big Brother treatment are the "I have nothing to hide" brigade - you know, the kind who put white squares on holiday snaps in case a monogrammed condom has been left on view!!

[Surfcrest]

Thats all very well Surfcrest - but I think one of the issues for ordinary people here in the UK is that whilst we don't object too much to the Americans spying on their own citizens, we sure as hell object to them spying on us.

IтАЩm just not sure it can be described as тАЬspyingтАЭ by all accounts of the word just by virtue of the fact that all information and indeed тАЬyour informationтАЭ is being included in the vast and growing pool being monitored. Based on the enormous size of it all, IтАЩm just saying that IтАЩm skeptical much more is being done beyond just sifting through it all for key phrases, words, names etcтАж..and hopefully following some of these up when itтАЩs possible. I believe we are talking about text messages, emails, web sitesтАжeven message boards, where the total volume of information is being continually scanned for leads, such as the name I provided in my last response. The example I provided is just one word that might trigger some attention, especially because this site is about Thailand and I can imagine Southern Thailand is one of the geographic areas that perhaps is going to attract more than just a glance. While they may not have found what they were looking for here, that is not to say that a different lead wonтАЩt turn up in the south and lead to something that could possibly save lives or anticipate violent eventsтАжsuch as what we recently witnessed in Boston. You need only look at the examples of New York, Madrid, Mumbai or indeed LondonтАж.that monitoring some individuals is going to be necessary to prevent possible recurrences.

IтАЩm not going to give anyone cause to monitor me and so I donтАЩt care if IтАЩm ever looked at for any reason. Other individuals involved in illegal activities or activities society as a whole frowns upon may have an entirely different experience. Hopefully members can link this to how I might be particularly more sensitive to certain SGT rules, not just because my name may be linked to the site but because it is my goal to eliminate our ban in Thailand and the need for members to use proxy servers.

Surfcrest

[scottish-guy]

....IтАЩm just not sure it can be described as тАЬspyingтАЭ by all accounts of the word just by virtue of the fact that all information and indeed тАЬyour informationтАЭ is being included in the vast and growing pool being monitored.

LOL -are you trying to be funny?

Call it "monitoring of my information" or whatever you want - as far as I'm concerned if my information is being gathered without my explicit consent then I'm being "spied" upon - and in this case by a foreign country.


IтАЩm not going to give anyone cause to monitor me and so I donтАЩt care if IтАЩm ever looked at for any reason. Other individuals involved in illegal activities or activities society as a whole frowns upon may have an entirely different experience....

Groan - this is the old "nothing to hide" argument used by the likes of the KGB, the Stasi, the Gestapo, et al- and is really ironic after we have just had a humungous row over message forums allowing members full names to be published without their consent.

I also resent the implication that the only people who might object to having their information collected/monitored are those who may be involved in illegal or frowned-upon activities, and I do not wish my objections to be misrepresented as such. You do realise of course that much of the sexual activities posted about on this site are illegal in various parts of the world, and a much higher percentage would be "frowned upon" by society in general? - again a little ironic.

No, my objection is on the basis of "civil liberties" - which I believe we are allowing to be eroded under the guise of being "protected" from potential terrorism - which many would argue we brought upon ourselves by indulging in illegal wars. The state's desire to protect its citizens might be more laudable had they not made those same citizens targets in the first place.

Finally, that a foreign country seems to be the one doing the montoring/spying adds insult to injury - as the affected parties have no way of democratically registering their objection to (or approval of) these practices. I do not remember voting for the USA to be my overseer.

[Surfcrest]

Then let me break it down for you a different way, so you know better where I am coming from and how we define тАЬspyingтАЭ completely different than one another.

In terms of Sawatdee Gay Thailand, this site stores an incredible amount of information. Each and every post, every single word in each post is stored in and indexed. If you've used the search engine, you would know how that is and that the search engine is no special power of the moderator or administrator, but is available to all of us, members or guests for that matter, unlike other sites. You donтАЩt need to have read every post and every word in every post for the search engine to go through all that information for you on your command. By having the search engine plugged into all this data doesnтАЩt mean anyone is spying on you or anyone else with access to this same search engine. It just means that your posts and every word you have posted in all of those posts are part of the information poolтАж.read or unread. That's not spying.....agreed? That's also not a whole lot different than what the Americans have admitted they've been doing...yes?

Once I start working with that information, specific to you or something you said is when we start crossing the line into monitoringтАж.to say the least. Say for example, IтАЩve noticed that it is your style to underline or to print in bold font certain words you like to emphasise. By filtering through all of the information ever posted on this board, I could use these parameters to find anyone, any post and indeed any words also highlighted in the same manner. This, in my opinion would fall more under the function of monitoring, rather than spying because IтАЩm not looking at information specific to you personallyтАжbut rather what you and anyone like you might have posted now or in the past.

Every time you log in and post, the site collects this data. While some members might travel a great deal, or log in from different IPтАЩs, use internet Caf├йтАЩs, proxyтАЩs etcтАж.this site is still collecting data, even from guests somewhat. While looking at or filtering this data may not tell me a great deal about you personally, once it is plugged into the same data for every other member, using variables such as time of day (as a simple example)тАжit starts to create a picture. This is where and how hydras are identified, without giving away much of the whole process. This is also precisely why I don't delete memberships of people that have crossed the line because keeping them active keeps this information in the pool as well, making it easy to re-identify them under different ID's.

Once I identify an issue and start investigating the lead, this is where we go from monitoring into something more....although I still wouldn't call it spying. Where I can substantiate a belief that someone is a hydra using considerably more variables. Clearly, I may need to gather enough evidence to prove to the person IтАЩm accusing of using hydras that heтАЩs been тАЬfound outтАЭ. And, as I said beforeтАж.this process does not require me to use any of the personal information members use to register. I do not care what any member's real name is or email address for that matter, this is irrelevant in the process. It's only an exercise into whether one member is connected to another.

If Neal is admitting on the PBB that he has 3 other identities here or Piss Elegant is going to put her neck way out on the block with a bold faced lie that she has registered successfully here 10 times in the last two weeks, then even all of us using the most simple tools could filter these fools out or substantiate a claim that they lack total credibility. For example today is Sunday June 30th and since Father's Day, Sunday June 16th we've had 4 new members sunniva, Jason, solice and ladygaga99 (the latter I haven't made my mind up on yet)....which only proves piss is piss...elegant or not. Go to Forum / Members / Find a member....and use Joined: using the drop down After and the date 2013-06-16 to see for yourself!

Clearly I would think that you Scotty would want me to continue rooting out and expelling hydras as IтАЩve been doing since mid-May or so. Yes I am using every memberтАЩs posting history data to identify leads and draw conclusions on these leads when IтАЩm following upтАж.but no, IтАЩm not spying on you, IтАЩm not even monitoring youтАж.IтАЩm just using your information to isolate other information....and for your / our benefit (hydra drone strikes).

I think youтАЩll find a similar approach from the Americans or your own governmentтАЩs strategy for monitoring your own people, but with vastly expanded capabilities to weed out terrorists, identify crime and the flow of money around the planet.

Surfcrest

[scottish-guy]

Of course I want you to find the hydras and "pipe the shit out of your home" as in my video above - but I was posting on the general world situation, not SGT specifically.

If any SGT member disagrees with whatever "data collection" measures this site takes or what it does with that data, they have the possibility of leaving - but unfortunately that's not an option in the wider scheme of things where we are hearing e.g. that our emails and phone calls are being routinely scanned.

[Surfcrest]

I was posting on the general world situation, not SGT specifically.
e.g. that our emails and phone calls are being routinely scanned.

And I was only using SGT as an analogy for the much bigger picture and to kill more than one bird with one stoneтАж..or a large rock might describe better what it would take.

Emails, phone callsтАж.absolutely. ItтАЩs not as though anyone is listening in to your phone calls or reading through your emails but rather your emails and phone calls are being filtered for key indicators. What comes up in these filters may be filtered several more times to filter down to the indicators typically found with the suspicious behaviour intelligence groups need to monitor or analyse. You may never know any of that is happening to your information unless they came up with something to address with you. From a security perspective, I would think this is keeping you safer. From a financial perspective, I imagine it is keeping your money safe by knowing where it is within all the other money in the world. The same would apply to crime, especially online crime.

From the example I provided in my earlier response, from saying the word Bin LadenтАж.someone from intelligence may have already accessed this site, downloaded everything I have ever posted or that has been linked to me on any other site (including what remains posted on the PBB) to determine whether I or anyone else on this board represents any sort of security risk. All this could have been done faster than it takes for you and I to even log on. Clearly it would take a lot longer over on bahtstopтАж.but thatтАЩs a separate discussion.

We might very well be talking about pedophilia than terrorism and so for these individuals, deleting their memberships and running away from message boards isnтАЩt going to protect them if they are carrying on this un-wanted activity through other traceable means. And for the rest of us, who have nothing to hideтАж..no one is interested in what we have to say. If it was ever revealed that an interest group was being monitored simply because they are gay and carrying on legal activities, that a lot of embarrassing questions would be asked of the monitors and their motives in relation to civil liberties.

So long as we are not moving money illegally around, weтАЩre not involved in terrorism and we are not involved in crime (from the broad sense of the definition) no one is spying on you because no one really cares.

Surfcrest

[joe552]

Apparently, the guy at the NSA who was monitoring me died of boredom.

Seriously though, it's not just the security services who are tracking our online lives - Google, Facebook or whatever sites we visit will record that. I don't see how you can avoid being tracked unless you stop using the internet. Do I feel comfortable with that? Not really, but since I can't do anything about it, I don't worry about it too much.

SG, do you have a solution?

[Manforallseasons]

Call it "monitoring of my information" or whatever you want - as far as I'm concerned if my information is being gathered without my explicit consent then I'm being "spied" upon - and in this case by a foreign country.(Quote)Scottish-guy


You can't be serious that they would bother monitoring you, now I'm sure B.L. believes he is a wealth of misinformation. :glasses7:

[scottish-guy]

Joe - I'm afraid "solving" all our information, emails, phone calls being illegally(?) accessed/screened/monitored by the USA is beyond even my capabilities LOL!! But I'm damned if I'll condone it by saying "I have nothing to hide, so it's perfectly fine"

MFAS - You're right, when we have high-powered, influential, international, millionaire playboys like BL in here, why would anybody waste their time monitoring little old me.

[Manforallseasons]

Joe - I'm afraid "solving" all our information, emails, phone calls being illegally(?) accessed/screened/monitored by the USA is beyond even my capabilities LOL!! But I'm damned if I'll condone it by saying "I have nothing to hide, so it's perfectly fine"

MFAS - You're right, when we have high-powered, influential, international, millionaire playboys like BL in here, why would anybody waste their time monitoring little old me.


All joking aside the most outrages bugging is the new aqusation of the U.S. easedropping on the offices of the E.U. In Wash. and Bruselles!

[Khor tose]

No, my objection is on the basis of "civil liberties" - which I believe we are allowing to be eroded under the guise of being "protected" from potential terrorism - which many would argue we brought upon ourselves by indulging in illegal wars. The state's desire to protect its citizens might be more laudable had they not made those same citizens targets in the first place.


I am in complete agreement with Scottish guy on this issue. It does not matter how much information they are gathering or for what reason. By the US Constitution this is clearly illegal and they know it or they would have gotten a legal ruling on it before they did it.

Per Wiki:

The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution is the part of the Bill of Rights which guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, along with requiring any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause. It was adopted as a response to the abuse of the writ of assistance, which is a type of general search warrant, in the American Revolution. Search and seizure (including arrest) should be limited in scope according to specific information supplied to the issuing court, usually by a law enforcement officer, who has sworn by it.

The use of mass spying is nothing more then a writ of assistance which is exactly what the founding fathers wanted to be stopped when they wrote this amendment. I really wish Snowdon would stand for trail as I would like to see the argument made that all he did was report a crime being committed. To me the man is a hero.

[Surfcrest]

Per Wiki:

The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution is the part of the Bill of Rights which guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, along with requiring any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause. It was adopted as a response to the abuse of the writ of assistance, which is a type of general search warrant, in the American Revolution. Search and seizure (including arrest) should be limited in scope according to specific information supplied to the issuing court, usually by a law enforcement officer, who has sworn by it.

The use of mass spying is nothing more then a writ of assistance which is exactly what the founding fathers wanted to be stopped when they wrote this amendment. I really wish Snowdon would stand for trail as I would like to see the argument made that all he did was report a crime being committed. To me the man is a hero.

Clearly the world has changed considerably since the founding fathers decided what they wanted for the United States at that time, oblivious to what has happened on 9-11 before and after.

The same would apply with The Second Amendment, the right to bare arms and the amount of senseless killing going on in the United States, especially of late.

Moses didn't come down the hill with this document, it was written by ordinary people at the time, unaware of the threats their country might face well into the future.

Sad is it, to hang on to these ancient beliefs and Amendments in stubbornness and allow these Amendments to stand in the way of common sense in modern times.

Surfcrest

[Nirvana]

I agree with Scotish Guys analogy on the subject ..
As for Surfcrest and a fellow Vancouverite you scare the hell out of me
giving credence to the workings of that asylum below the 49th parallel.....

[Surfcrest]

...so then, staying away from the legislature in Victoria is the solution, rather than tracking down the perpetrators?

Surfcrest

[Charin]

Yes, we scan.....hahah... :evil4:

[dab69]

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013 ... snhp&pos=2 (http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/25/20185516-report-us-hacked-into-un-video-conferencing-spied-on-eu?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=2)

Report: US hacked into UN video conferencing, spied on EU

Carlo Allegri / Reuters file
A taxi drives past the United Nations Building in New York, July 29, 2013. The main building has recently undergone a $1.8 billion dollar renovation.

By Andrew Rafferty, Staff Writer, NBC News
A German magazine reported Sunday that the National Security Agency secretly monitored the United NationтАЩs New York headquarters by hacking into the organizationтАЩs video conferencing system.
The weekly Der Spiegel cited documents provided by former U.S. intelligence contractor Edward Snowden that show the European Union and International Atomic Energy Agency were targets of the U.S. spying effort.
The NSA was able to crack the coding of the U.N.тАЩs video conferencing system last summer, the magazine reported.
Der Spiegel reported that one of the documents it obtained said, "The data traffic gives us internal video teleconferences of the United Nations (yay!)," according to a Reuters report.
Advertise | AdChoices


Within three weeks the number of decrypted communications rose from 12 to 458, according to the report.
Surveillance of the EUтАЩs work in New York began in the fall of 2012 when it moved to a new room, according to the internal documents reported on by Der Spiegel. The U.S. intelligence agency spied on plans for the EU mission and its technical infrastructure.
Der Spiegel reports that the documents provided to them reveal that the NSA has surveillance of more than 80 embassies and consultants throughout the globe, an initiative called "Special Collection Service.тАЭ
Earlier this year, Snowden leaked information to media outlets about far reaching government spying programs that intelligence officials say has damaged their ability to thwart potential terrorist attacks.
Before revealing himself as the leaker, Snowden fled the United States to China, where did gave an interview with the British newspaper The Guardian, revealing his reasons for going public with the information.
"I really want the focus to be on these documents and the debate which I hope this will trigger among citizens around the globe about what kind of world we want to live in," Snowden told the newspaper. "My sole motive is to inform the public as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them."
From there he headed to Russia, where earlier this month he was granted temporary asylum. The former Booz Allen Hamilton employee has further strained the relationship between the U.S. and Russia, prompting President Barack Obama to cancel a September meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin.
Snowden is wanted by U.S. authorities for leaking the classified information, and Russia's unwillingness to comply with U.S. calls for his return have outraged the White House and some members of Congress.
Officials are unclear what other national security information Snowden possesses and may leak.
NSA officials have maintained that all surveillance programs have operated within the confines of the law.
Reuters contributed to this report.

[latintopxxx]

if only they would not only read my emails...but also answer them..and file them away...oh what bliss!!