Should I have to pay this?

This past weekend I had a chance to go to a party for a boy about to become a monk. It was in Nikon which is in the South close to Hat Yai. I will write more about this later.

The Thai friend who asked me to go is a small bar owner, and when he asked me, it was for two days. He had lined up a car and driver for 5,000 bt inclusive of both. We agreed I would pay all the gas, and he would pay the car rental (as he was taking three of his employees with him).

The day before we were to leave, the plan changed because a friend showed up who had a license, so my friend decided to rent a Honda CRV and let the boy drive us (for free). The rate was only 4,000 bt then, and as before my friend paid for the rental, and I agreed to pay for the gas. I thought it worked out well for both us.

The trip was uneventful, and the party that night was really great. Everyone was really trashed, especially the boy who drove us. Toward the end of the night, the driver dissapeared, and then so did my friend. About thirty minutes later, I was summoned to drive with another boy about a mile away where the rented CRV was lodged in a deep ditch which the drunk driver had backed into because he missed the driveway where he was trying to back up to turn around.

By the time the tow truck got there the inside of the vehicle was soaked with water and it would not run. The next day my friend had it towed into town, and presto, two days later, there was total charges of 22,000 bt plus an extra two days rental (bringing rental charges to 8,000). It caused me a great deal of grief in my professional life because I suddenly had to miss two days work.

The clincher is that somehow this became my problem, and my friend fully expects me to pay the total 30,000 bt because I am a farang, and I was along on the trip (I'm putting words in his mouth). I did not hire the car, barely knew the boy they got to drive (although I did sleep with him on the trip--and tipped him), and took no responsibility for allowing a very drunk 21 yo to maintain control of the keys nor for monitoring his behavior. I feel very badly this happened, but I guess I fail to see how this is my problem.

My friend borrowed money to pay for everything. He tells me not to worry, but I know he wants me to help him pay back the money. I don't mind helping my friend, but frankly, taking 30,000 bt out of my monthly budget is very steep for me and would leave me having a pretty lousy month in terms of enjoying the pleasures of LOS. However, I do plan on giving my friend 10,000 to 15,000 bt over the next few weeks to help him out.

I also offered to let the driver stay with me (it is his problem after all), and I would give him 1500 bt per day (as well as pay for his food, drinks, and pocket money), and he could use that money to pay my friend the money he is causing him to spend. I thought it a great solution as I would be contributing the money but still not having to totally curtail my enjoyment (other than giving up my buterflying for three weeks to be with one boy). That offer was met with a flat refusal as my friend does not want the driver involved in having to pay.

Any reasonable advice on this one? Am I being a heel or being overly generous? Are there layers of Thai thinking that I'm overlooking? Have I lost all face with my friend?

Pete

Fascinating story indeed. Sorry for your agita. It does sound like you lose face with your Thai friend if you do not pay, but from the Western perspective you don't own anyone a satang. Anyone considering living in Thailand, be prepared for always being seen as the moneybags.

[colmx]

On my last trip we hired a boat and took around 20 thai friends on a trip to Ko Bpai - beyond Ko samet - to an island full of horny soliders for a day trip - But thats another story :albino:

On the way back the captain (and only crew member) was completely p1ssed out of his brains and was unable to drive the boat back to Pattaya.

One of our gang of Issan boys drove the boat back to pattaya - even though it was his first time ever in a boat.,.. luckily he had a good sense of direction... and even more luckily i was on the upper deck and oblivious to the fact the driver was unconcious!

As we reached Bali-hai the boy tried to dock the boat, but (obviously wasn't able too!) Luckily another captain came to our rescue.

When i asked my Bf who would be responsible if the boat sank or was crashed he said we aka ME!

Why?Because we rented the boat....
(the fact that our hired the boat and the driver was also hired didn't matter)

Moral of the story?
Take 2 crew...
Don't hire from Thais... unless u see some sort of insurance
Don''t let your captain drink!

Don't think you owe a single baht. Not sure how your friend sees it, other than every falang has an unlimited bank account and he wonders why you did not pay.

A few years ago I took 3 friends to Ko Larn for an outing. Two wanted to ride skidoos. The third hesitated and final gave into the peer pressure. I decided it was more fun staying in the shade reading.

All three were gone a good long time. Finally, the trio returned and trooped over to where I was enjoying my book and my 3rd or 4th beer. Long faces and an unhappy looking Thai man coming up quickly from behind. Seems that Lad number 3 managed to smash into a boat and did a fair amount of damage to the skidoo. A long discussion in Thai with lots of hand waving ensued with no one providing a translation.

Lad number 3 ran off crying and a gentleman who spoke reasonable English came over to explain the skidoo was damaged to the tune of 10,000 baht. The skidoo owner wanted to call the police and have Lad 3 arrested. Whoa, serious stuff. After examining the damage, the estimate was about right, and discussing the repairs we came to an arrangement. Not sure anyone expected I would pay, but there was an expectation.

To settle things and avoid Lad 3 dealing with the police, I covered the damages once I had a chance to get to an ATM on the mainland. I went and got Lad 3. He had gone into the rocks along the shore and I had to climb barefoot over the damn rocks to get to him. He was still crying and lamenting on how was he going to pay. It took some time to calm him down and I told him not to worry, all was taken care of, and lets get back.

The skidoo owner came back to Pattaya where I paid him. Many thanks and wais. I sent the lads home and I limped back to the hotel. Those rocks were murder on my feet and I managed to get a bit of sunburn. That night I was taken very good care of by the whole bar and Lad 3 made sure I was very happy the rest of my stay.

I does seem that the unwritten rule is...the falang pays. Glad the boat owner never showed up!

And if you don't pay, you are a bad farang.
It pays to be unpopular.

One of the problems is the type of Thai person many of you guys choose to hang out with. What would you really expect from a bar owner...someone who makes his living in an illegal business, profiting from the sale of young Thai flesh to sex tourists?

You don't owe anything, BUT,
a) can you afford it?
b) do you want to pay?
c) how friendly are you with the Thai friend?
d) do you want to remain friendly with him?

If you answer yes to a) b) and d) and very, to c) then I suggest you pay at least half.
You don't have to, but if I was in your position and answered my questions as above, then I would pay. I would also use this as a learning curve and be a lot wiser in a similar situation in the future.

[Monty-old]

Pete1969
You must know a senior Thai person,At Work or a Thai bar owner.that does not know the boys involed.
Tell him all, and ask him or her what you should do or pay. they will know all about losing face.
Thai's when they have problems or disputes in there village do just that.and all abide by that ruling.
I would pay 50% but as Thai's say IT IS UP TO YOU.

[Abuelo-old]

One thing that is not entirely clear to me is what your relationship to the driver was prior to the trip. Is it your friendship with him that got him involved in his driving duties? If so then I do think you bear some if not all of the responsibilty for the loss of those who used your friend to drive them.

If you did not know this guy and had no role in his being behind the wheel of that car then I don't see how you should pay much at all. You were an invited guest, you even offered to subsidize gas, your host allows an irresponsible friend to drive the car and damage it and now you think you have some moral obligation and are trying to see it from a Thai face point of view?!

Your friend made some bad decisions and got burned, at least you paid for the gas. You do need to select better friends, this one is using you.

[catawampuscat]

First , Thaiquila coined the word "moneybags" for farangs..Since we often call the boys "moneyboys", it fits that the farangs
could be called moneybags instead of ATMs..It is a little less harsh and since it is a much older word than ATM , it has a certain
cache..
One soon to be devastated farang, denied his bf was a moneyboy..Of course, he had met him at a Boyztown go go bar but this boy
was different and the farang would get angry if other farangs made any reference to the bar or the word "moneyboy"..He even accepted
that the boy had farang friends who only wanted his companionship but of course he was in denial and when the shit hit the fan and
the "moneyboy" showed his true colours, the farang couldn't handle Thailand anymore and left...He thought it was true love and also
finding out that the boy wasn't gay and had a girlfriend really shook his world but of course, being in denial is the only way the fantasy can
be maintained...
Some ways to stop being used as a "moneybag"... Pay the boys bills yourself..Go to the office and pay the rent.. Go to the hospital and pay the
bill or if not possible demand an official receipt as proof.. If the boy wants money for food, buy him some food or demand he show you the food..
Laugh out loud when a boy asks to "borrow" money from you..In Thailand "borrow" means you lend but there is no payback from the boy.. Only on very
rare occassions, does a boy honour a debt and it is just a method to loosen the moneybag in almost all cases.. Many boys think that if they "borrowed" money that time itself takes care of the debt and if questioned often a boy will say oh, that was a long time before or something like that..
There are several very old truisms that apply , like a fool and his money are often parted and never lend money to an idiot unless you are making
a gift.. By the way, the rumour mill in Sunee, has it that a certain farang well beloved on this forum had 8,000 pounds sterling lifted from his
room by persons unknown..Why this farang stays in the cheapest guest house in Sunee is odd but I forget the house policy of being blind on matters
of age or IDs... Who keeps so much money in their room and one mole even thinks the farang spinned this story himself for his own purposes, like setting up another farang for a big loan that will never be repaid.. Oh, those rumour mills... Sometimes one has to be more careful with a fellow farang than a moneyboy and be very wary when your new best friend asks you to borrow large amounts of money.. A word to the wise and all that jazz :cat:

By the way, the rumour mill in Sunee, has it that a certain farang well beloved on this forum had 8,000 pounds sterling lifted from his
room by persons unknown..Why this farang stays in the cheapest guest house in Sunee is odd but I forget the house policy of being blind on matters
of age or IDs... Who keeps so much money in their room and one mole even thinks the farang spinned this story himself for his own purposes, like setting up another farang for a big loan that will never be repaid.. Oh, those rumour mills...

Lordy, it's bad enough listening to many of the boys state their financial plights and asking to 'borrow' money, lawd knows I couldn't cope if other Farang started down this route too!

Oh and a question for those who live here permanently or have visited for many years, is it a low season thing that more and more boys seem to ask for money at this time of year than in high season? It seems now that every boy I speak to more than once now asks me for money, its now getting to the stage that waiters and mamasans are asking for money, not tips, but larger amounts of dosh. It could be a run of bad luck on my part or the fact that I have schmuck written on my head, but I am hoping it is just the usual low season pleas. Let me know.

As far as paying for accidents, I figure that if the venture is your suggestion, if you invited boys to an event or happpening and something goes wrong then you are responsible. If you are invited along somewhere by a boy(s) as a guest then it is not your responsibility, but you may wish to help out to the best level of your financial ability. I think, as with all things, you pay what you can afford, unless your drunk of course. I'm afraid the combination of drunkeness on my part and handsome boys often leads to a significant litening in the wallet.

[Davey612]

The original poster said that "he was putting words into his friend's mouth." How in the hell did this sense of quilt feeling degenerated into this thread of obligations to pay just because you are a falang?

I think you guys are thinking too much. In what other country where you travel do you expect this kind of behavior from the host? Simply put, it was his friend's idea, his friend did the planning and hiring, the original poster just went for the ride. If he thinks he is now expected to pay for the whole thing then it is a fiction in his head. If his so called Thai friend in reality expects him to do so, then you know what kind of friend it is. Friendship is universal and the same principles apply. Just because one is richer than someone else does not mean that the richer guy is supposed to hold the bag.

And please, don't give me the save face thing. Whose face are we saving?

There is always the implied threat in Pattaya if you don't play along with the role of good farang (sucker), then you risk being labelled bad farang, so for lots of people, this psychological intimidation has the desired effect, PAY UP.

If that had happened to me in my own country i would offer to pay a % for goodwill.

As it was a 5 man trip - maybe 20%?

Though legally you dont owe a cent. bad luck all round and hope it works out ok for you.

To clarify a bit:

Yes, I was an invited guest, and no I did not know the boy very well who drove. He was someone brought along by my friends (he is the best friend of another boy who went along).

My friend is a very good friend (probably my best friend in Thailand). I use the word a bit loosely as I am a bit more patron than friend although that has never been put to the test (meaning the man might still be a good friend to me even if I did not ever pay for anything). Like many Thai-farang relationships it is always complicated, this line between patronage and friendship.

Even though I said I was putting words in my friend's mouth, he did ask me several times to pay. The problem is that I could not because the ATM card I took on the trip had a limit on daily withdrawals and my credit cards were back in Patong. He borrowed money and pawned gold to pay for everything but there is still an expectation I will pay back the money for him (or at least help).

This friend and his business partner (another good "friend" to me) have been very good to me when I am in LOS. I return the favor by being good to them. I would be more than willing to help my friend even had I not been along on the trip. However, I am a bit put off by this sudden expectation and pressure to cover for something not my fault. It is not seen by my friend as doing a big favor to him but as something expected.

The thing that bothers me the most is that the driver takes no responsibility. I offered what I thought was a good face saving solution all around. The boy stays with me, and I will pay the debt for him (plus pay all his expenses, pocket money, and make sure he still has several thousand bt in his pocket at the end of three weeks). This way, I can save money on off fees and tips and not worry so much about the money I give to my friend. This solution was immediately rejected. This is what really pisses me off as I am expected to shell out 30,000 bt from my own pocket, and no one else has to worry, take any responsibility, or do anything else.

Last, the Paradise Complex is a very small place. I could go to Bon (owner of many businesses) to ask his advice as he also considers himself a good friend to me, but every boy involved has worked for him in the past, and it would only create very bad feelings. Best for me to give my friend 15,000 bt and chalk it up as a lesson learned. What lesson I've learned I'm not sure. What the fallout will be, I don't know. Best to do as my Thai friends tell me and not think too much and not to worry.

Thanks for all the good feedback.

Pete

[Aunty]

Yes well you're not just a Farang, you're the trophy Farang, ol' moneybags himself!

As I see it you have three options.

1. Refuse to pay anything. You didn't drive the car into the ditch and you're not paying for it. And I'm sure there must have been drink-driving campaigns in Thailand just as much as anywhere else. Take the moral high ground! Drinking and driving is wrong, how could this boy do such a thing, how could his friends let him do such a thing? Bloody Asian drivers!

2. I think a better face saving device for you and for the boys is for you to pay a part of the costs or repair (say 50%). And stick to your guns. If you are partly responsible it stands to follow that all the boys' must be partly responsible as well. Tell them you will pay your share, but only your share. And that the foolish drunk boy he has to pay, and the other boys' have to pay too as they should have been more responsible, they should have been looking out for and after each other. They didn't do that, they screwed up, therefore they pay for their mistake. It's a little loss of face for them, appropriate in the circumstances, but not catastrophic. They can put it down to a learning experience.

3. Stick to your guns and say yes you will pay it all but ONLY in exchange for boy-pussy, the boy has to pay you back, again for his foolishness and lack of judgment, and that is how he can do it. Take it or leave it otherwise you'll be paying nothing. At least this way you are not out of pocket if you save money on whoring other boys, which is probably why he rejected it out of hand when you suggested it to him because you are in effect not paying for it at all, he is. Perhaps you could try a combination of 2 and 3? You'll pay 100%, but the boy repays you 50% in sexual favours. If he says yes, bonk him immediately (at least you'll get one shag out of it) and then tell him to come back the next time for the money. Then at least you'll get two sucks of the sav.

In my experience people from throughout Asia love to haggle and cut a deal. You need to enter into that spirit here and let them do that as well. Don't be just be another generally uptight white protestant witch, with her pursed disapproving lips and her sour dial. Isn't that what you went to LOS to get away from?

The Thai friend who asked me to go is a small bar owner, and when he asked me, it was for two days. He had lined up a car and driver for 5,000 bt inclusive of both. We agreed I would pay all the gas, and he would pay the car rental (as he was taking three of his employees with him).

I also offered to let the driver stay with me (it is his problem after all), and I would give him 1500 bt per day (as well as pay for his food, drinks, and pocket money), and he could use that money to pay my friend the money he is causing him to spend. I thought it a great solution as I would be contributing the money but still not having to totally curtail my enjoyment (other than giving up my buterflying for three weeks to be with one boy). That offer was met with a flat refusal as my friend does not want the driver involved in having to pay.



It is easy to be wise after the event but if I entered into such an arrangment I would have ensured that there was comprehensive insurance in place for any accident. Do we assume that this was not the case?

As both you and your friend ( the bar owner) are in a much better financial position than the boys who were on the trip then I think you should pay at least 50% of what is being asked. You were happy to go along with the replacement driver and between you save 1000 Baht on the trip, had you not done so the accident probably would never have happened with a more experienced driver.

You appear to be contradicting yourself by saying you do not feel you should pay anything yet at the same time saying you were prepared to contribute to the cost albeit via the boy if he took up your offer and gave you discounted sex. I would have thought that your offer of 1500 Baht a day would in itself be enough to brand your a 'mean farang'.

It is easy to say that 'I slept with him' and then in the same breath say (although I did sleep with him on the trip--and tipped him), and took no responsibility for allowing a very drunk 21 yo to maintain control of the keys nor for monitoring his behavior. as though that absolves you of any moral responsibilty to contribute to the cost of the incident.

Have you lost face with your friends? Maybe not yet but having lived here for a number of years and knowing how the system works I doubt it will be long, if you refuse to be part of the solution, that you will lose face with your friends and their friends and so on.

I fail to see that the fact that paying up would make a dent in your monthly budget and you having to curtail your enjoyment is either here nor there and you having a pretty lousy month in terms of enjoying the pleasures of LOS. appears to me to be somewhat selfish. Surely you have a backup fund ( savings) for emergency expeniture?

Probably the above sounds harsh but you did ask for opinions.

[jimnbkk]

Read Naughty but Nice's comments carefully Pete.

I say "Amen"

NBN,

I don't think you have a very good read on what I've said. I agreed to pay for gas, not for the car (as my friend asked). The 1,000 bt savings was all his. There was insurance, but it does not pay for a drunk driver putting the car into a ditch (unless one wants to involve the police which everyone seemed very eager NOT to do).

As far as I was aware, another boy had the keys (at least that was the case after the car was parked). So this boy had to give the drunk driver the keys. The driver disappeared when I was away with the host (boy becoming a monk) to watch the Menora dance. No one in my party had any plans to go anywhere for a long period of time (there was already talk about sleeping for a bit at the house where the party was being held). As an invited guest, I don't see how responsible I can be for a boy I barely knew, especially when I wasn't even present when he left the party nor when the keys were handed over to him.

Also, I'm not sure how anyone could construe 1500bt per day tip in low season to be cheap (especially as it included food, drink, pocket money and a bonus). I work 10-12 hours per day, so do not require a boy's company during the day or evening. I usually go out around midnight to 1am and most nights prefer sleeping alone in my bed. Nevertheless, IMO, 1,500 bt per day for a period of three weeks seems a good deal to me regardless of how much time I required of the boy (that is a 30,000 bt tip after all for 2/3 of a month--plus a planned bonus of 5,000 to 8,000 bt on top of it). Hell, even in high season, I think a 35,000 bt minimum tip for three weeks is pretty good. I also don't think it wrong to ask the driver to make a contribution, especially as there was an easy way for him to do so. The driver was already making plans to try to spend time with me after we returned if I was willing (the problem arose when it looked as if though part of the tip he would get from me would go to the cost of the car repair).

As for the thinking about me being selfish for not wanting my entertainment curtailed or for not dipping into funds outside my budget, that is the thinking from these boys that so pisses me off. It is my money. I work very hard for it. I feel as if I am being shaken down to pay for something totally outside my control and that is in no way my problem. The idea that I would lose face with anyone also greatly pisses me off as I have been exceptionally kind to the friends in question over the years and exceedingly generous with them.

I have no problem helping my friend. What saddens me (actually it sickens me) is that in spite of the huge heart I have shown these people and everything I have done for them, is what you say about me being labeled a bad farang. Either I pay up for something not my problem and not expect the driver to pay in any way, or else in spite of years of friendship and generousity, I will be labeled a bad farang. Maybe I am tired of being a good farang then as the price one has to pay seems to be very high indeed (and obviously never ending).

Pete

NBN,


As for the thinking about me being selfish for not wanting my entertainment curtailed or for not dipping into funds outside my budget, that is the thinking from these boys that so pisses me off. It is my money. I work very hard for it. I feel as if I am being shaken down to pay for something totally outside my control and that is in no way my problem. The idea that I would lose face with anyone also greatly pisses me off as I have been exceptionally kind to the friends in question over the years and exceedingly generous with them.

I have no problem helping my friend. What saddens me (actually it sickens me) is that in spite of the huge heart I have shown these people and everything I have done for them, is what you say about me being labeled a bad farang. Either I pay up for something not my problem and not expect the driver to pay in any way, or else in spite of years of friendship and generousity, I will be labeled a bad farang. Maybe I am tired of being a good farang then as the price one has to pay seems to be very high indeed (and obviously never ending).

Pete

Sorry Pete but has it occured to you that your perception that you have been "exceptionally kind - in spite of your huge heart - everything you have done for them, -exceedingly generous-in spite of years of friendship and generousity," may be just that Your perception.. Have you even considered if the boys feel the same?

You say you work very hard for your money, you think the boys don't? I am afraid all that comes across to me is much wringing of hands.

Your comment <I agreed to pay for gas, not for the car (as my friend asked).> is pretty irrelevant, it was a joint venture neither the car nor the gas being of much bloody use on their own without the other. I think your demean yourself by trying to wriggle out of paying with that excuse.

No doubt the situation has caused you some harship but the above comes across as self-pitying. Having spent a lot of time in Thailand you must be aware of how things work and how farangs are perceived, we either accept if or bugger off somewhere else, the choice is ours.

I am still of the same opinion that you have a moral responsibilty in this case to help financially irrespective of losing face or not. But it is up to your own standards of what you call friendship as to whether you help or not.

Ahh, but I got a nice laugh from that one. Trust me, if after all I have done for these particular friends, they don't think I have a good heart, then we may as well all give up because we are all seen as heartless bastards. A good heart does not just come from money and gifts. It comes from actions over a long period of time. I have no doubt of my friend's perceptions of me or my heart.

I feel I have an obligation to my friend out of friendship because he needs help. I will help him for that reason. The situation with the car is not my problem. Now it does not matter because it is all done with and paid for, and I told my friend I would help him by giving him 15,000 bt over the next few weeks. It is not the first time nor will it be the last time I have helped my friend when he is in need.

I talked with my two friends for a long time tonight. The other business partner (not with us on the trip) agreed with me that our other friends had been reckless and said that is why he never would agree to use his license to rent a car. Our other friend knew how his partner felt about this and knew he would be angry that this happened. They also explained the driver was a very good friend that was helping them out by renting the car for them. He was poor and had no money, and he felt very bad. Even if he had money, they did not want him to pay as they both felt my other friend made a bad choice in renting the car in the first place and asking this boy to drive.

They knew I had the means to help and did not understand why I did not do so right away until I had explained my budget restrictions and my feelings about the matter the night before to my friend who invited me on the trip. They were both very concerned I was angry with them, especially as I did not come down for family dinner tonight (we all eat together every night in front of their bar--always street food). They said the car was paid for and that I did not have to pay anything if I did not want. They would rather have my friendship than have me worry over 15,000 bt. My friend was very happy when I told him I would help to pay. We had some drinks and laughs and looked at boys as they went by. I still don't totally understand their thinking, nor they mine, but we all understood that the bonds of friendship we have are important to all of us.

So, I guess the story ended well although I learned to always rent a car that comes with a driver (my friends and I all agreed on that). Again thanks for all the feedback.

Pete

DELETED

John, the boy was the only one listed on the rental contract (no credit card was needed for the contract). However, as he was drunk, the insurance would not cover it (not that anyone even asked).

I still get a sneaky feeling my friend is not overly happy that I will not cover all 30,000 bt and am only paying half (hell, 8,000 of that is rental fees--4,000 of it for the two extra days we had to keep the car--which he had already agreed to pay). No matter what the final outcome is (good or bad), I will have learned a very valuable lesson about friendship in Thailand. I hope it turns out to be something positive.

Pete

I believe that there's a lesson buried here in this tale of woe.

Yes, it's virtuious to have a good heart but it's also recommended that we maintain a sound head. Unless you are blessed with great wealth (and you've let your friends know about your good fortune) pay what you believe is fair and if your friend isn't satisfied, reevaluate your friendship.