Chiang Mai shenanigans

[pepperami]

Hi,

May I solicit some advice please regarding Chiang Mai. My Partner and I intend to visit this year, after Songkran, which we will spend in Pattaya тАУ and would just like a few pointersтАж

Accommodation тАУ any recommendations please on where to stay? Plan to do lots of touristy stuff in and around Chiang Mai, so not too concerned with being near the gay scene, but at the same time would be nice to not be a long way from it. Chang Puek (which I gather is where the nightlife is?) looks like it is quite a distance from Thapae Gate/Night Bazaar etc. Is it far, or is the map I am looking at misleading? Once IтАЩve seen the Night Bazaar тАУ is there much else to do around there anyway?

Tour guides тАУ will be seeking the services of a good tour guide. There seem to be many to choose from, so could anyone recommend one from personal experience please?

Finally, offing тАУ what is the accepted going rate in Chiang Mai to tip should I feel an itch?

Thanks in advance,

Pepperami

[Khor tose]

Hi,

May I solicit some advice please regarding Chiang Mai. My Partner and I intend to visit this year, after Songkran, which we will spend in Pattaya тАУ and would just like a few pointersтАж
Pepperami

It would be helpful to have some more information, but I will give it a shot.
1. First off the gay scene is not just in the Chang Phuek area of town. There are gay thing around the night market, off huey Kaew, in the santitam area, off of Chang Klang, etc.
2. Our Scene in Chiang Mai is different then Pattaya, Phuket or bangkok. Most of the go-go bioys are straight, but there are good go-go show. There are freelancer that you can find in some of the bars and in other places in town and there are dozens of gay massage parlors.
Now I don't have to list all of these places and it is already here and very well done:
http://www.radchada.com/gay-chiang-mai- ... guide.html (http://www.radchada.com/gay-chiang-mai-gay-scene-guide.html)
Do read this site.
As for a guide and accommodations these are my recommendations, but others would offer you other choices. In my opinion, There is no better place to stay or better
guides what you get a PJ's place. They are the best host in town and know everyone and everyplace to go. However, at this late date you will be extremely lucky to find an opening in their place as they are usually booked months ahead. Here is their web site: www.pjs-place.com (http://www.pjs-place.com)
Once again for gay accomodations the radchada web site is your best best. If you wish to stay non-gay and still be central, then i can tell you that every place that I know of in Chiang Mai is gay friendly. Some gays I know have stayed at the Mercure. Some have liked it, others have hated it. M hotel by Taepae gate is both central, close to the action and reasonable. Look around per your budget, there are plenty of places to stay and from the Radchada web site you can get an idea of what you want to be near. Oh, I am married and not sure of the prices but think 1000 short time and 1500 all night is close to the mark and may be the top.
Now songkran here is three days and you will get wet from morning to dusk. Plan on it and take it in stride. Anywhere on the moat is fun to be at, but my favorite place is at SOHO bar where you are in the middle of non-stop action but can find a place to get or stay dry.

Hope this helps and enjoy yourself in Chiang Mai---The Rose of the North.

[Oliver]

Chiang Mai remains one of my favourite destinations; I'm sure you'll enjoy it.
I shall make a controversial recommendation for a hotel. I know I'll be shot down in flames but I was really impressed when I took my boyfriend and a mate of his there a few months ago.
The Mercure (formerly Novotel).
Yes, I know; straight, ageing, a bus ride from the centre- but astonishingly low prices for well-equipped rooms. And a really warm welcome from the staff; the girls thought my two friends were very cute- correctly so- and treated us all well.
Check out Agodo prices. I must admit that I was tempted by these offers more than by anything else.

It's within walking distance of Adam's Apple and not far from the shopping mall (number one venue for eye candy).

[pepperami]

thanks for the great and thoughtful advice guys - always very much appreciated...

looks like we're going to spend maybe 2 weeks there, so think I'll book somewhere for the first couple of nights - then play it by ear :happy7:

[BonTong]

looks like we're going to spend maybe 2 weeks there, so think I'll book somewhere for the first couple of nights - then play it by ear :happy7:
If you're staying for a couple of weeks you might want to consider a serviced apartment. I've been hearing good things about this new place: The opium Chiang Mai (http://theopium-chiangmai.com) It's in Chang Puek area close to several gay restaurants and bars. Their weekly rates are a great deal. Another new place in the same area is: Villa Korbhun Khinbua (http://www.korbhunkhinbua.com/)

As a tourist attraction the Night Bazaar market area has declined in recent years. The Saturday and Sunday walking street markets are now much better attractions for handicrafts etc. After Songkran hotel rates will drop. You could try one of the five star hotels around down town for your first couple of nights - if you can get a good rate online. e.g. the Chedi, D2, Shangrila, Le Meridien. Or more boutique, perhaps the Rachamankha or 137 Pillars house if you really want to splurge for a couple of nights :) You can check them on trip advisor.

[pepperami]

Thanks for the top tips BongTong, especially regarding the night bazaar area. I won't get too hung up then if I'm not staying nearby.

Both of those service apartments look great, I need to agree with the other half some sort of plan. We're soo indecisive. Originally, we were aiming to head Phuket way - and have a pure beach touring holiday. That evolved into a head south, but take a little peak at Chiang Mai for a few days. The more we read about Chiang Mai, its looking like we're not too bothered about seeing the beaches at all now!

:kap:

[Khor tose]

Don't write off the night Bazaar bars completely. While there are only two bars left they are some of the busiest gay places in town, and the place where a lot of Chiang Mai regulars and Thai freelancer can be found. Hehehe you might ask BonTong how things went for him a couple of weeks ago. That boy looked cute to me.

[vanek333]

We have been reading with great interest all the posts regarding Chiang Mai, we will be there in April and have been looking at the Kantary Hills Hotel, is this a good choice, we do like to go out every night, is this a good location? any feedback would be greatly appreciated, even if you know of somewhere you feel may fit the bill beter, and of course not be adverse to having joiners.

[Khor tose]

We have been reading with great interest all the posts regarding Chiang Mai, we will be there in April and have been looking at the Kantary Hills Hotel, is this a good choice, we do like to go out every night, is this a good location? any feedback would be greatly appreciated, even if you know of somewhere you feel may fit the bill beter, and of course not be adverse to having joiners.

Hopefully Bon tong will jump on your question as well. Kantary hils is a first class hotel, I see nothing wrong with staying there. That said, i do not know of any gays who have stayed there. While it is on one of the main street for night life, there is little gay activity on that street. What they do have there is great food and a lot of cute college types and a nearby park that one can cruise. One drawback at night is that the street is very crowded, and because of that it can take you awhile to get anywhere else you may wish to go. Also most of the activity on the street is the very young Thai college crowd. Since you are asking, I probably would not recommend that particular hotel, for a single gay. As i said earlier Bon Tong may have better information on the Kantary for gays. I eat there when they have buffets and the food is good.
As to where you should stay, I think that is covered in the above posts on this thread, but Bon Tong may have more information on the Kantary Hotel and other suggestions for you.

[fedssocr]

visit Siam Insect Zoo http://www.malaeng.com/blog/ Best 200 baht I have ever spent. The butterfly house is incredible.

[BonTong]

Yes, can thoroughly recommend Kantary Hills, not only do I have a couple of gay friends who stay there, but itтАЩs also one of the places where we recommend our business visitors to stay (the other being the Chedi). New manager since October is an affable Brit who understands farang customers.

As well as plenty of bars and restaurants, the area is home to many of Chiang MaiтАЩs night clubs and the only exclusively gay club in town: See Man Pub. If you haven't seen it, Thai Puan magazine did a recent feature on the area: read it here (http://www.thaipuanonline.com/did-you-see-man-in-chiang-mai/).

As pointed out, early evening traffic is bad, but if you stay there thatтАЩs not a problem as there is so much in walking distance. But, I donтАЩt really agree the area is for the тАЬvery young college crowdтАЭ. Sure, some places are, but there are also many more upmarket bars and restaurants that attract more mature or wealthy customers. Whilst there is an absence of specifically gay bars, the area is packed with normal places popular with Thai gays (and Toms).

[Oliver]

What I find interesting and enjoyable about Chiang Mai, as opposed to Pattaya or Bangkok, is the sense that a visitor is in a city that would continue to go about its own business even if there were no tourists. And Doi Inthanon (and many other beautiful places) are a couple of hours drive away.

[Khor tose]

As well as plenty of bars and restaurants, the area is home to many of Chiang MaiтАЩs night clubs and the only exclusively gay club in town: See Man Pub. If you haven't seen it, Thai Puan magazine did a recent feature on the area: read it here (http://www.thaipuanonline.com/did-you-see-man-in-chiang-mai/).



I see some things a little differently. I would not walk to the Seaman pub as it is close to 2k from the Kantary. However, their is a back way to the club and you can get there fairly fast by reb cab or tuk tuk and there are plenty of them on the street. It is a great hotel, but I would still hesitate to stay there if my interest was go-go clubs, which are mostly in the Chang Phuek area,or gay bars with the most popular being Yoka Dok (per out mag), Secrets, CU and Soho. Well, good luck in whatever decision you decide to make, and please report back and tell us how you liked Chiang mai and what worked and what did not.

[vanek333]

you so much for the great feed back re Kanary Hills, so if we where to stay in the "Gay" area where would you guys recomend?

[BonTong]

you so much for the great feed back re Kanary Hills, so if we where to stay in the "Gay" area where would you guys recomend?
As you were considering Kantary Hills I assume you have a reasonable budget. In which case, for specifically gay: Lotus Hotel or Mansfield Residence are the best located in terms of being close to go-go bars and gay restaurants. PJs place is also good but not quite so close. For full list of gay accommodation: http://www.gayinchiangmai.com/News/chiang-mai-gay-scene-guide/chiang-mai-gay-hotels-and-guest-houses/

For non-gay the two places mentioned earlier: The Opium and Villa Korbhun Khinbua, would be good options, there's also the Mecure. Slightly cheaper though perhaps more Thai is Lanna Boutique Resort (http://www.lannaboutique.com) Or, if you fancy something a bit special, try Ruen Come In (http://www.ruencomein.com) ItтАЩs not quite so close to the gay stuff, but still walkable if you wanted to (e.g. less than a mile to AdamтАЩs Apple). However, I donтАЩt know how gay/joiner friendly they are; it's family run and quite hi-so. BTW their northern Thai food restaurant is also excellent and worth a try if you want up-market dining in that part of town.

But, I wouldn't get too hung up on staying in the gay area. All the places in Nimmanhaemin road - around Kantary Hills, See Man Pub, PJs Place and the gay area are no more than a ten minute tuk-tuk ride from each other.

[vanek333]

Thank you so much for the feedback Bon Tong it wwas most helpful.

[Khor tose]

you so much for the great feed back re Kanary Hills, so if we where to stay in the "Gay" area where would you guys recomend?
As you were considering Kantary Hills I assume you have a reasonable budget.
I am making the same assumption as to your budget. I would recommend Dusit D2 or the Meridian. These five star hotels are close to
the night market, the night market bars, Mandalay disco (Known as Mandagay--while not all gay, much more cruiser to me then the Seaman pub), Yoka Dok, and Taepae gate. These hotels are located where it is so much easier at night to move to another area from where you are. I concur with Bon Ton on the gay choices, there are some excellent gay guest houses, and hotels on his lists. In Chiang Mai staying gay does not mean staying second class.

lBut, I wouldn't get too hung up on staying in the gay area. All the places in Nimmanhaemin road - around Kantary Hills, See Man Pub, PJs Place and the gay area are no more than a ten minute tuk-tuk ride from each other.
Listen it is almost impossible to say anything bad about Kantarty Hills. A beautiful well run hotel and yes, the new General manager, appears to care deeply about his customers. However, I live not to far from the hotel and at on any given night I have spent 1/2 hour alone trying to get off the street where it backs up to the superhighway, and that is a normal night. it gets even worse on the weekends. The city recently rerouted traffic in the area in the hopes of relieving the congestion, but it has had very little effect on the time delay on that road. It is true that in the daytime or early evening you can get around okay, but at night it becomes a parking lot. In the end it depends on what you want to see and do. If you want to see the places in and around Chiang Mai that are picturesque and exotic, then I would highly recommend Kantary Hills. In you are more interested in the night life, then I would hesitate. However do keep in mind, that as I said in my opening answer to you that different people, do have different answers. You best bet for this or any other location in the world is to study the area you are going to, decide what exactly is important to you to do and see, and then make your decisions based on the conclusions you come too. I really do hope you like our city and I do hope you will let us know what worked and did not work for you. Your first hand experiences and conclusions will help me the next time someone asks the same questions.

[vanek333]

Thank you so much for you feedback, yes we do like to party, lets face it we're on holidays so the gay area would be a plus, we ahve heard soo much about Chiang Mai we're almost busting out of our seats to get there, and not for just the bars, but alao the lifestyle.

[BonTong]

Thank you so much for the feedback Bon Tong it wwas most helpful
:salute: Thank you - glad to be of assistance.

Here is another fairly recent magazine article about Gay Chiang Mai you might find useful:

out-in-thailand - Chiang Mai - All Change in the Jungle City (http://www.out-in-thailand.com/articles/chiang-mai/)

[Brad the Impala]

These five star hotels are close to the night market, the night market bars, Mandalay disco (Known as Mandagay--while not all gay, much more cruiser to me then the Seaman pub), Yoka Dok, and Taepae gate.

Mandalay can't be that much more cruisy, didn't it close six months ago?! I recommend Seaman as a really great night out, for those who enjoy shows, live bands, dancing and hot coyote dancers.


Listen it is almost impossible to say anything bad about Kantarty Hills.

But you seem to be giving it your best shot!!

[Khor tose]

Mandalay can't be that much more cruisy, didn't it close six months ago?! I recommend Seaman as a really great night out, for those who enjoy shows, live bands, dancing and hot coyote dancers.

Yes, it did, but not for lack of business something you should know if you are giving advice on Chiang Mai.


[quote="Khor tose":2whdw0zn] Listen it is almost impossible to say anything bad about Kantarty Hills.

But you seem to be giving it your best shot!![/quote:2whdw0zn]

Brad, I have hopes you will actually learn to read one of these days, but then I also hope for world peace.

[vanek333]

Settle ladies, love the feed back but settle : )

[BonTong]

[quote="Brad the Impala":1fxxin7n]
Mandalay can't be that much more cruisy, didn't it close six months ago?! I recommend Seaman as a really great night out, for those who enjoy shows, live bands, dancing and hot coyote dancers.

Yes, it did, but not for lack of business something you should know if you are giving advice on Chiang Mai.
[/quote:1fxxin7n]
Actually, Mandalay re-opened under another name about three months back. In my opinion nowhere near as gay as it used to be and, unless you know the management, foreigners are still not so welcome there. Also, itтАЩs hardly that much closer to the night bazaar hotels than See Man Pub is to Kantary hills.

See Man Pub wins hands down in my view, its 100% gay, great fun and foreigner friendly (well, at least they are very friendly to me :bounce: ). ItтАЩs also next to CMU and other student accommodation areas making it much easier for them to get to than going to the old city.
:idea1:
Again, in my opinion, the traffic problems in Nimmanhaeminda area are not the show stopper thatтАЩs been suggested for visitors. Though, if you live there and drive a car you would see it differently. Yes, traffic can be heavy, but why would anyone sit for 30 minutes in a car when you can walk anywhere in the area in 10-15 minutes? I eat/drink in Nimmanhaeminda several times a week and by motorbike/ tuk-tuk it never takes more than 10 minutes or so. And if one soi is clogged, just walk to the end and get a tuk-tuk there instead; easy. Of course, the fact that the Night Bazaar is now relatively easy to get around (5-10 years ago it was much busier) and Nimmanhaeminda now sees heavy traffic kinda gives an enormous clue as to where all the life in Chiang Mai is at these days.

Chiang Mai is a city with stuff spread all over so my advice to visitors is you do need to consider exactly what you want to do which will decide where you want to be. If you are elderly or infirm and have mobility problems, or simply canтАЩt stand to walk more than 100m then plan accordingly. Under such circumstances the Lotus Hotel, with immediately adjacent garden bar, AdamтАЩs Apple Club and places to eat might be the best choice. If you are young, or young at heart and want to go with the younger Thai party crowd you will need a different mindset. As the ThaiтАЩs say, Laewtae Khun.

[Khor tose]

[quote="Brad the Impala":30hooa3b]
Mandalay can't be that much more cruisy, didn't it close six months ago?! I recommend Seaman as a really great night out, for those who enjoy shows, live bands, dancing and hot coyote dancers.

Yes, it did, but not for lack of business something you should know if you are giving advice on Chiang Mai.

Actually, Mandalay re-opened under another name about three months back. In my opinion nowhere near as gay as it used to be and, unless you know the management, foreigners are still not so welcome there. Also, itтАЩs hardly that much closer to the night bazaar hotels than See Man Pub is to Kantary hills.

Again, in my opinion, the traffic problems in Nimmanhaeminda area are not the show stopper thatтАЩs been suggested for visitors. Though, if you live there and drive a car you would see it differently. Yes, traffic can be heavy, but why would anyone sit for 30 minutes in a car when See Man Pub wins hands down in my view, its 100% gay, great fun and foreigner friendly (well, at least they are very friendly to me :bounce: ). ItтАЩs also next to CMU and other student accommodation areas making it much easier for them to get to than going to the old city.you can walk anywhere in the area in 10-15 minutes? I eat/drink in Nimmanhaeminda several times a week and by motorbike/ tuk-tuk it never takes more than 10 minutes or so. And if one soi is clogged, just walk to the end and get a tuk-tuk there instead; easy. Of course, the fact that the Night Bazaar is now relatively easy to get around (5-10 years ago it was much busier) and Nimmanhaeminda now sees heavy traffic kinda gives an enormous clue as to where all the life in Chiang Mai is at these days.[/quote:30hooa3b]

What is the new name? I was there three weeks ago and the sign was still up. If you get time let me know what it is called now. I found it still very cruisey and it has never been unfriendly to foreigners that I know of. What it does do is charge them a cover fee of 300 baht, but then it gives them free drinks or mixers. I believe they do this to discourage the cheap charlies who would come in just to cruise the boys and not buy anything. I have heard of farang regulars like cnx4shan who don't have to pay this fee, but as I seldom go except with my partner,so I do have to pay this fee. As I have said from the start, different people do have different opinions and I like the Seaman club, but I do not find it very cruisey. more Thai on Thai then Thai on farang. We have different opinions on the traffic to as we both dine on Nimmenhamen a lot. Also I don't think in most cases we are not talking about 100-200 meters, but more like 1000+ meters. In all the gay things you mentioned in and near Kantary Hills I am surprised you did not mention the very excellent gay ran organic restaurant near Kantary Hills called Anchan vegetarian. The food is organic, pesticide fee and delicious. Well worth a visit.
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_R ... g_Mai.html (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g293917-d3602277-Reviews-Anchan_Vegetarian-Chiang_Mai.html)

[BonTong]

In all the gay things you mentioned in and near Kantary Hills I am surprised you did not mention the very excellent gay ran organic restaurant near Kantary Hills called Anchan vegetarian.
I don't recall mentioning anything gay near Kantary Hills, apart from See Man Pub :dontknow: I believe Anchan was mentioned in the article I linked to from Thai Puan, along with many other places gays might like. You can also read about it here: (http://www.gayinchiangmai.com/News/?s=Anchan)

BTW I just saw the latest issue of Thai Puan today which has another article on Chiang Mai that readers of this thread may be interested in: Chiang Mai тАУ Massage or Gogo? (http://www.thaipuanonline.com/chiang-mai-massage-or-gogo/)

[Khor tose]

I do wish you would have posted the new name for Mandalay. This is a nice article, but I have no idea who in this small town Dave Edwards is, and I am puzzled as hell Why he left out some of the most popular bars in Chiang Mai. I am talking about Secrets, CU Bar and Yoka Dok (last years out magazines friendliest bar in Chiang Mai) in the night Bazaar area. Also there is absolutely not mention of Mandalay. Really odd. I've decided to write Thai Puan and ask them about this omission, and see if they can include some information in their next article. In fact I know they take submissions from anyone, and I may start writing my own articles. Not only are the two most cruisey bars, and disco in Chiang mai left out, but again the ever popular and gay owned Anchan is left out . I did see your add for web site development and do hope your business is going well. Which leaves me to say that I own no business here or have any commercial interest. I am retired from a two successful careers and all my advice is strictly my personal observations, and I support gay businesses in the entire town.

[pepperami]

Thanks for the great feed back gents (and interesting reading) - I will of course report back on my findings :alc:

Can anyone recommend any drivers/tour guides you have had any experiences with please? I get the impression from some travel forums this can be a bit of a lottery...

Thanks,
Steve

[Khor tose]

Jiab from PJ runs a tour service and there is also Ben who is gay. I can recommend them both.

http://pjs-place.com/tours.htm http://pjs-place.com/map_contact_links.htm
http://www.benstaxiserviceandtours.com/

[BonTong]

I did see your add for web site development and do hope your business is going well.
Thank you for your support :salute: . Actually, we advertise our web and graphic design business with both Thai Puan and Out-in-Thailand magazine. As Out-in-Thailand magazine is a major customer of ours, IтАЩm really not in a position to comment on their competitorтАЩs editorial policies. Since we have been managing Out-in-ThailandтАЩs IT and website IтАЩm pleased to say their online traffic has tripled. Our SEO activities have also propelled them to a very healthy position in Google search. Indeed, editor in chief James Barnes publicly thanked us for our efforts in his newsletter last month. If you havenтАЩt seen the site updates you should check them out. JamesтАЩ new weekly column is already causing quite a stir too. See - Papal proceedings in Rome.

The bars (bar one) you mention are listed on the Out-in-Thailand website: Chiang Mai Gay Guide (http://www.out-in-thailand.com/gay-guide-to/chiang-mai/) and also on our own websites Chiang Mai Gay News (http://www.gayinchiangmai.com/News/chiang-mai-gay-scene-guide/bars-and-entertainment/) and Radchada.com (http://www.radchada.com/chiang-mai-gay-bars-clubs-pubs.html) . These bars have enjoyed free publicity in editorial too. Yokka Dok, located in the old city, is highlighted in the listings as both an advertiser and winner of the Out-in-Thailand readerтАЩs choice award for best bar for the last two years. Yokka Dok also hosted a special event for Out-in-Thailand. They are also listed on the NickyтАЩs and Hotmale websites for which we supply some of the updates. If you know any Chiang Mai bars that are missing from these sites please let me know so we can consider including them. Please note also, some venues do not want to be publicised on farang gay websites and are not included at their request.

However, don't be so naive about the way the business works. These magazines and websites are free publications run as commercial enterprises. They make their money by selling advertising, not by offering free publicity and are not under obligation to include any particular business. Since, according to you, your friendтАЩs bar is so popular, he can surely afford to pay for some advertising? Rather, than griping on here about the lack of free publicity, why donтАЩt you suggest to your friend he advertise in the magazines? Just like we do.

[Neal]

Those last couple of lines are a bit tacky Bon Tong. Either you give everyone that wants a listing free or you dont. Lets not be selective. You list everyone as a proper resource to the community or you just list advertisers. One or the other.

[BonTong]

Either you give everyone that wants a listing free or you dont. Lets not be selective. You list everyone as a proper resource to the community or you just list advertisers. One or the other.
Completely agree, and that has always been the policy with the websites we work with. On our own sites now it's simple - if you want a basic listing it's free, if you want an enhanced listing you can pay for it.

But, equally, if you only have a free listing you shouldn't complain if a competing advertiser gets more coverage and editorial etc. You have an equal opportunity to get the same treatment. For example, there are some publications that provide free listings for everyone but only include advertisers in editorial. Also, if an article covers a very specific topic, you can't really expect them to include advertisers that are totally irrelevant to that topic as part of the article.

I can't speak for other websites, but keeping gay venue listings up to date is an extremely thankless task. Believe me, I know! Errors and omissions often occur, and on some sites it takes ages for stuff to get updated as they do it perhaps once a year. There is one well know international travel guide that still lists the "Siamese Cat" as Chiang Mai's only gay venue (Google it). That place has been closed for decades rather than years! If places are omitted its likely because they haven't checked things in a while, or simply just don't know about them, rather than any malicious intent.

[Neal]

Sorry but still need to disagree with you. When you do an article yes you should be sure to include your advertisers but if you are doing an article on let's say Chaing Mai and want it to be a resource to your readers, then you include everyone otherwise maybe you should title it " The People Who Advertise with us in Chaing Mai" or something similar. Just like awards might be titled "the most popular this and that of those who take out an ad". The problem I have with a particular magazine in Chaing Mai is that they fuck up the listings whether you're an advertiser or not and leave ads out of thier magazine that have booked space, along with sending past due notices for bills that were paid weeks prior. I guess what I am saying is that some people don't advertise in a magazine not because of a lack of money but maybe there are other reasons that one does not know about. If it happens consistently almost every issue, well one gets fed up and might pull thier ad(s) out or maybe they heard rumours and thought it was a bad idea to advertise. Of course I don't say that this is the reason and I don't say that this happened to anyone, but maybe just maybe and it could have happened almost every issue. :dontknow: