The infamous and elusive "Guarantee" letter ??

I posted the below on another forum but thought I would add it here in case anyone here had any experience to share ( and as there are no replies on the other forum yet)

So, someone had commented about several things they had been asked for by The British Embassy when trying to get a holiday visa for their Thai (boy)friend and one of the items was the elusive ...... "A letter from me to Guarantee his stay"

So, I've often heard this guarantee letter being talked about and from the little I know about it I understand it basically to be a letter saying that you are and will be and accept responsibility for all and any repatriation costs should your Thai (boy)friend choose to dump you and take off to live somewhere else in your Country overstaying his visa until such times as he's either caught by immigration and / or decides to return to Thailand in his own good time, or perhaps you and he simply decide that he's going to remain with you illegally and you in effect hide him in the UK he never returns to Thailand - again until he's caught no doubt.

So a) am I right about the overall guarantee part of the letter IS a basic guarantee from you as outlined above or is there more to it than that with perhaps you also being liable for him for things like legal and health cover (i.e. paying for NHS treatment if so required or what if he gets arrested for fighting and ends up in the legal system - is that at your expense too etc ?)

Then b) I've also heard all sorts of horror stories about just how much the amount of money may actually be that is required to be guaranteed or what it could possibly / usually end up at, but does anyone have any knowledge of that ACTUAL figure should your BF decide to take off and leave you in the crap with you having to pick up the pieces after he decides to take off and go work the bars in your home city selling his ass to make his fortune !?

And I guess lastly c) if your boyfriend DID decide to land you in the crap by taking off on you and is picked up and deported (or returns to the airport 5 months later as an overstayer just perhaps) IS the guarantee clause ACTUALLY physically enforced and DO you REALLY get an invoice from UK Immigration for ┬гXX??? amount of money or does this just not happen in real life and you just hear no more about it?

I ask these questions as once or twice I have thought of bringing a Thai friend over and so signing such a letter would be required ( I'm told, is THAT actually true too ?? ) but the whole grey area surrounding this ( in terms of my own knowledge more than anything probably) and what sounds to be a totally open ended nightmare of a letter (that has never seen actually been seen or signed by anyone I know here in the UK anyway?) AND added to that all the various (bar) stories I've been told late at night in smokey bars in Bkk of farang having to fork out ┬г40,000 and ┬г50,000 after almost unlimited bills have been sent to them on their boy taking off to earn some money whilst in their Country was enough to scare the pants of me and I very quickly re thought the whole plan, but all of these stories always seem to involve a " friend of a friend" and not the person I'm speaking to so which the breadth of experience here can anyone on the board shed some "actual" factual advice and experience about that whole end of things and or even better perhaps share some personal experience of same perhaps ( either good or bad) about basically IS there a physical letter, is it enforced and for approximately how much should the worst happen ???

And before anyone urges i exercise huge caution before even thinking about bringing a bar boy here etc don't worry it wasn't a bar boy I was relating this too at the time ( or so he told me anyway) - but hey it's Bangkok, who knows eh ! :-)

[cdnmatt]

Can't say about a tourist VISA to the UK, but I do know about PR status to Canada, and I'm guessing about the same rules apply. It's simply a guarantee that you promise to be responsible for him during his stay, and that the government will not spend a single solitary penny of taxpayer's money on him. If he ends up in the welfare system, you're paying. If he ends up with a 3 year prison sentence, you're paying that $30k/year or whatever to house him there. If he gets picked up by the cops for being homeless, you're paying, etc.

The reasoning behind him taking off on you and getting into trouble will be irrelevant to the government. In their eyes, you brought him over, so he's your responsibility. You can expect to be liable for any money he costs the taxpayers + interest. That's why it's open-ended with no limit in terms of $$$. If he turns out to be a serial killer and goes on a killing spree, then that's going to be a costly investigation and trial. :-)

As long as you know him decently, wouldn't worry about it much though. It's more of a "worst case scenario" type of deal.

[Brad the Impala]

N Irish, I think that you're getting a bit hysterical over this. All I provided as a letter of guarantee was simply an undertaking that I would be responsible for his costs during his stay and that he would be living with me.

No one could expect that guarantee to cover the kind of excesses that you are describing. It's not like putting up bail money!

I'm not sure that a simple question is "hysterical", I'm simply asking has anyone any experience of this - and from your "you only signed" etc Matts reply above actually does seem to contradict your belief of exact what you were signing up for - hence my question - as if I signed that I would responsible for his costs I think I would want to know did that just mean his living expenses or all the other "hysterical" stuff too :-)

And I should add my hysteria isn't self induced but has been carefully honed by many drunk farang in many bars telling me many horror stories of what happened to a friend of a friend, hence why asking for any possible clarity regarding all if that here perhaps, mind you it will be interesting to read the outcome here perhaps as if the general gist of what people claim is true then it's just possible that you have actually signed up for a little more than you envisaged at the time perhaps - either way I look forward to reading people's experiences ( including yours and thank you for that).

[cdnmatt]

For the most part, I don't think it's much to worry about, unless you don't know him well and he ends up being come lowlife criminal. Only thing that may concern me a bit is his health insurance. If he ends up in the emergency room with no insurance, you're going to be on the hook for the medical bill.

It's just the government requiring you to agree that no taxpayer money will be spent on your Thai BF. 99.5% of the time, I'm sure it's no big deal. Thai BF comes, has a good time, and heads home.

Yes I'm sure you (both) are probably right there - out of interest then as I'd mentioned if he should ( against your wishes) NOT to return home, where does one stand there then I wonder ?

( whilst its mainland Europe and not the UK) I know of an instance with a Thai bar friend of mine where he's over visiting his European BF and unbeknown to the boyfriend the Thai boy is "sex working" every day in the guys house by using gay Romeo and grindr and also unbeknown the the poor unsuspecting farang who's out at work all day and thinks his BF is out looking at museums or god knows what the Thai guy is debating taking off to Amsterdam to work there "for a while" was the way he put it to me, I should add that the Thai guy and I go way back and have always been very honest with each other about such things and I have also seen his Ad on GR so I've no doubt what he's saying is correct ( plus he's horny 24/7 so I don't doubt his love of his work either :-) - hence my questions as I recall talking to the farang BF in Soi Twilight one night and he told me that he would be screwed financially if such a thing where ever to happen and I would imagine the UK wouldn't be that much different.

But it's quite possible the infamous letter that people talk about is no more than a simple "he"ll stay with me and I'll clothe and feed him" type deal - (which does sound like a MUCH proposition) hence my (hysterical :-) post asking for people's experiences of same perhaps.

[cdnmatt]

In that case you mentioned, it's not really a big deal. Him hooking up with people, and fucking their brains out, or taking off to a different city / country to do the same isn't costing the taxpayer anything, so the government isn't going to care. Now if he overstays his VISA and the cops pick him up for being an illegal immigrant, than yeah, you're going to be on the hook for the money it cost taxpayers to process and deport him.

Basically, any money that's comes out of the government coffers due to him, is actually going to come out of your personal bank account. :-)

Yeah that's exactly what I assumed and would (depending on the person of course) would always niggle me in the back of my mind, one blazing row sime night over good knows what cultural misunderstanding ( or him wanting to go find "work" in the local gay scene and BANG, front door closes, he's gone ( after pinching your wallet) and liable for god knows what there after !? Which Brad I'm sure you'd agree IS a hell of a distance off "I'll clothe and feed him" - hence my original question to ascertain otters thoughts or views on that.

It appears that the US tourist visa regulations are much less daunting, once the individual has obtained the visa. US consular officers tend to ignore letters from a тАЬsponsorтАЭ since they are seen as self-serving. Even if the sponsor submits an official Affidavit of Support, it is unenforceable. US visa officers focus solely on the applicant's family and economic ties to his home country and the likelihood that he will (or will not) return home when his tourist visa expires.

Once the tourist enters the US, he, and he alone, is responsible for his actions (debts, medical expenses, legal costs, etc.). The US government has no recourse except to deport him if he overstays his visa. The sponsor is not liable for anything.

[ceejay]

There is no such thing as a guarantee letter. Your friend will be required to show documents proving that you have the funds and are willing to support him whilst in the UK, but it is not a guarantee. The relevant page on the UK Borders Agency website is for the General Visitors Visa:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas ... g/general/ (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigration/visiting/general/)
If you click on the "What documents do you need" link you come to this page:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas ... documents/ (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigration/visiting/general/documents/)
and if you open the "More information" dropdown entitled " I am visiting someone in the UK. Can they give a guarantee for me?"
You get the following information:

The person who is 'sponsoring' your visit cannot give a guarantee that you will comply with the terms of your visa, or that you will leave the UK at the end of your visit.

They can help you with your application and provide you with the relevant supporting documents listed in our guidance, but you must provide these documents to us yourself.

Some of the responses here, although well-intentioned seem to be based on a mixture of conjecture, UKBA website, or out-of-date experience. Things have changed - and what is on the website are the mimimum requirements and, in practice, more is demanded. Remember always UKBA are the ones with the rubber stamp - you cannot tell them what the rules are - it only upsets them!

Speaking, as someone who has actually been in this position with the British Embassy in BKK recently, and whilst realising that you are only thinking about this for the future, can I give you some pointers as to the current situation re Visas:

Firstly, and assuming the boy concerned is not wealthy or in a proper job or a bona-fide student - you will have to send a letter to your friend, inviting him to visit you for a short trip and stating that you will be responsible for his RETURN air tickets and his accomodation (details to be provided including ownership of your property i.e. title deeds to be copied and notarised by a solicitor or rental documents). You do not have to have purchased and to produce the air tickets at this stage.

Next, he will have to produce your letter and ALL your documents (Property details as above, notarised copy of your Passporrt etc) as part of his Visa application process AND demonstrate that he can support himself during the trip. It is NOT sufficient to say that you will support him - even if you put that in your letter, and EVEN if you demonstrate ring-fenced funding in the UK - because UKBA will simply say they do not believe he will have access to your funds and will throw it out.

The UKBA sets an unofficial minimum figure on the cost of support in the UK and it is ┬г800 per month (not including accom, which you will say you'll provide). So you will have to pre-fund him at a rate of at least ┬г800 per month and he will have to produce Bank Statements to that effect. so, for example, if he is coming for 3 months and does not have at least ┬г2400 in cash in his bank (not yours), forget it - he will just be rejected.

THAT'S the easy part - my BF was coming to undertake a course of study which required an Extended Student Visitor Visa and in addition to all of the above, I had to prove I knew him. Have you ever tried to prove you know someone in the digital age where daily communication is by SMS and Instant Messenger!! This involved photographs together over a period of 3 years, sworn statements from mutual friends who had been in our Company together, documentary proof of a financial relationship (including money transfers etc) to show that I had been and was prepared to continue to support him.

After all that, the application was rejected and FYI, there is NO APPEAL unless under the ECHR legislation (not applicable).

So, if it's just a short trip (up to 30 days) the minimum requirements are:

1. Letter from you as above, with undertakings re: Accom and Flights
2. Money in his bank @ a rate of ┬г800 per month
3. All Documents to support the application

This list is not exhaustive.

Now, as I have said "our" application was rejected and I took it up with my MP who is utterly powerless and informs me that UKBA are answerable only to the Home Secy, and that takes 6 months to get a response.
And of course, if the application is refused, the boy's passport is stamped "REFUSED LEAVE TO ENTER UK" which makes everything more difficult in future.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOO..... I've figured that what you might want to do beforehand is go see your MP and ask if he will write a letter of support saying what a fine, upstanding, and honest guy you are, and how he is sure you will provide the support you have promised - which you can sent to your friend to submit with his application. I have a feeling they would treat an MP supported application with more respect.

And the best of luck to you!!

IF only UKBA staff in Thailand were as "flexible" as the BIB :evil4:

:hello2:

[zinzone]

Well done S-G for your detailed and full explanation. Out of curiosity do you know the exact reasons why the application was rejected?
Crazy the way the UK immigration system/rejection operates yet gypsies et al in their thousands and other scum from the slums of Europe can walk in and claim benefits.

Yes Zinzone, but I really don't want to post personal details on here - I'll PM you (or anybody genuinely in that position themselves).

Europeans within EU member states, of course, have a RIGHT to enter the UK - just as we have a RIGHT to enter theirs.

Thanks for the detailed post stating the latest FACTS of what is required, wow, that's one hell of a list, I wonder DO you think it's as harsh for holiday visas rather than long term student visas perhaps ?? Likewise has anyone else any knowledge of this area as even between Brad's post and Matt's there are quite large differences of view as to what a "letter" ( which it seems is now just a declaration on a form perhaps anyway?) actually entails and makes you liable for?

Although it's for a holiday Visa rather than an Extended Student Visitor Visa (the requirements for which are not even as stringent as a full "Student Visa"!)
- I think you must always remember that the over-riding questions are :

1. Will the visitor be self-supporting - i.e. does he personally have the funds to meet his living expenses @ a rate of ┬г800 per month (it's no good YOU having the funds, HE must have them and preferably in a formal Bank Account he has held for some time with regular deposits and withdrawals. UKBA are not daft - a recently opened Thai Bank Account with one single lodgement a few weeks before the proposed visit will probably not be looked on favourably.

2. Is your "guarantee" worth the paper it's written on - can you prove you know the boy and have done for some considerable time, and are not just facilitating the boy's entry into the UK.

3. Most importantly - can you both convince UKBA that the boy is likely to go home at the end of his trip.
If he has no formal employment in Thailand,no official income, no financial history (Bank Account), no property (informally renting a shared room will not impress) then they will inevitably form the opinion that as he has more going for him in the UK than he has in back in Thailand, he is likely to overstay or disappear.

If on the other hand the boy is in formal, respectable employment or a bona-fide student; if he has his own flat or even lives within the family home and there are papers to prove that; if he holds sufficient funds within a Bank Account to support himself and can demonstrate regular Income and expenditure from that Account - in other words if UKBA believe he will go home, then you might be lucky. Also, as I've said - if you can get a letter of support from your MP I suspect UKBA might give more sympathetic treatment to the application and not just throw it out right away.

You might also consider engaging an Immigration Consultant who can give you up-to-the-minute guidance and it could be money well spent. The trouble is that they are unlikely to be experienced in getting a Thai national into the UK, they will probably be more experienced with Pakistanis or Indians who already have family in the UK. But it might be worth ┬г50/100 to have a chat with one. But it's no guarantee of success - remember, I failed even with the help and support of a University Visa Application Dept who knew all the official rules and all the "extra rules" as well.

As for the "letter" - there is no official form. Just write a letter to the boy, inviting him to visit and setting out what you propose to do to support him by way of Air fare and Accom. If you can do that on your Registered, Limited Company letterhead, it may be better. The boy has to enclose that with his application, and it might be worthwhile writing a "covering letter" "To Whom It May Concern" setting out your committment in a more impersonal form - which he can also submit. As for what it commits you to - well if he disappears you are not liable unless there is a suspicion you facilitated it in some way. As for NHS treatment, he isn't eligible for free care but would be treated and the NHS might try to bill you (but they're so bloody inefficient it's unlikely). And of course buying "travel insurance" for the boy is always a possibility, but I don't know how that works in Thailand.


Good luck

:hello2:

[Brad the Impala]

Taking the advice of drunk expatriates in bars is rarely worthwhile.

Regarding travel insurance, it's as straightforward to purchase it in Thailand as it is in any other country.

The embassy in Bangkok does have a reputation for being unhelpful, however I have met a number of Thais in the UK who had obtained visas without being from either wealthy families or being in good jobs, so it must be possible for others, as it was fortunately for me. SG's advice is good, but I think that were other complications in his boyfriend's case, that may mean that his experience is not typical for an application by a Thai national.

This website is helpful for gay couples looking to settle in the UK, and also has details of Immigration Lawyers.

http://www.uklgig.org.uk

Brad can I ask was your successful application for a holiday visa (3 or 6 months I believe ?) or for a student / permanent type visa ? The reason I ask of course is that your experience seems so different to Scotties, but as Scot's has already alluded to perhaps there maybe some other reason for that.

And if what you are saying is correct (and of course I've no reason to doubt that ) that does suggest that its not such an insurmountable problem that it first appears, my only issue might be as to whether I would be happy depositing ┬г2.5k or so into a particular Thai boys account over a few months with the hope that he didn't blow it in the meantime ! But I guess thats' more to do with chosing the right guy to issue the invite to in the first place than the paperwork issues involved.

Can I just clarify - my BF is not a Thai national - he is Vietnamese and was advised to go home to Vietnam to apply - but they don't process the applications there - and although lodged in Vietnam, his application was sent to BKK for a decision.

I don't think however that this would make a difference - the main stumbling blocks would be the same.

And I don't think that there is any doubt that it is more difficult to get that Visa now than in the past - thanks to the hysteria in the UK media over immigration which has piled political pressure on the Con-Dem Govt to tighten things up considerably.

I think you're correct Scottie that the current wave of bad PR the Government have gained from the whole student visa issue will make it even more difficult in the future to gain this type of visa without it being 100% legit ( which i suppose is a good thing in a way) so a holiday visa may well be all thats up for grabs for the next while unless ALL the boxes are ticked to within an inch of their lives :-(

[Nabaat]

My Thai CP (been together years, 1 yr as CP's) had UK Visa's in Dec 2011 and 2012. Appled in Jan for Visa for March...refused!!!! The letter explaining the decision was full of the phrase "probability that..." not return, information incorrect etc.

Same bundle of paperwork we have used for the last two, updated bank accounts and even his house was added to this one.

UKVisa Bangkok...a Law to Themselves.

Luckiy the lovely Lady at the Irish Consulate took one look and said, no problems should be about 10 days...which it was :party Come on Dublin in March.

[dab69]

word your "Letter of Guarantee" to apply to as few expenses as you would deem probable to pay, yet enough to
suffice what they require. Don't extend yourself beyond a reasonable fee- they will probably not notice?