Change in implementation of law about foreign ownership

I am told that at the weekend the government send out a letter to all land offices instructing that in the case of transfer of ownership of land etc to a company which is 49% foreign owned and 51% Thai owned (a common device a lot of us use) then all the Thai directors must be interviewed to ensure that they are active bona-fide shareholders, not just a front set up by some lawyer.
I gather this new procedure has already stopped some transfers happening in the Pattaya area, and people are frantically looking at ways around it.

Don't know the reasoning behind the edict, but it sure could send the property market into a tailspin.

Don't know the reasoning behind the edict, but it sure could send the property market into a tailspin.Someone has decided to enforce the law?

DELETED

[Smiles]

I am told . . . people are frantically looking at ways around it...."
A good rule in life (i.e. a 'generalization' if you please): if you find yourself "frantic" in any given situation or decision ... have a relaxing stiff one (or a drink :blackeye: ) on the balcony under a full moon, and then, don't do it!

Cheer ...

[Gaypattayan]

It has been a long time in coming, but it seemed inevitable. The law was clear -- Thais HAD to actually OWN 51% of the company, but that was a fiction in almost all such company arrangements. It will be interesting to see if the government follows through. If they really do, then the time could come when the government decides to do something about all the past deals where the Thais have been owners in name only, and merely provided their name and signature in support of the company's creation.

Far more information on the government's action is needed to really assess where this all might go.

G.P.

[wowpow]

It would seem very unlikely that it will come to anything. The Thai Government has agreed on more than one occasion to open property rights to non-Thais. The last occasion was when they got the IMF loan in 97. A committee sat and reached no conclusions and nothing was done.

[bkkguy]

The law was clear -- Thais HAD to actually OWN 51% of the company, but that was a fiction in almost all such company arrangements.

this does not apply to deals with Singaporians surely?

bkkguy

It won't effect most buyers. It's only to do with foriegners buying 2 rai or 3 rai of land, and then spliting it up to do small scale developments.

Lets wait and see.

I don't think that is correct John. If you look here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php ... opic=70665 (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=26c444007d6ffef40cfc6a97175a6d0e&showtopic=70665) you will see a copy of the actual letter, it says nothing about 2 or 3 rai, but does go on about checking out the shareholders. Here is a quote

"If it appears that an alien holds shares or is a director (in the company making the purchase) the officers shall investigate the income of Thais holding shares delving into the number of years in current profession and monthly salary..."

[wowpow]

If the letter of the law is persued, the effects could be drastic for landowners and thousands of properties become unsalable. The value of foreign owned houses would plummet. Presumabl all new investment into the accommodation market would be channelled to condominiums and force the prices even higher.

Usually in Thailand, time passes and gradually the previous status gets re-established.

[wowpow]

Bangkok Post Breaking news

Bangkok (dpa) - Thailand's booming property sector has been thrown into confusion by a new regulation issued this month that requires all partly foreign-owned companies to prove the source of their funding before purchasing land, industry sources said Tuesday.

The new Interior Ministry regulation that went into effect on May 25 has already started to slow sales of housing estates in Thailand's popular seaside resorts, such as Pattaya, Phuket, Hua Hin and Samui Island, which have been specifically targeting well-to-do foreigners as vacation getaways or retirement homes. "The property boom ended on May 25," said Ronachai Krisadaolarn, managing director of Bangkok International Associates, a Bangkok-based legal consultancy firm that caters to foreign clients.

Thailand has strict laws prohibiting foreigners from directly purchasing property themselves although loopholes in the law allow them to own land and their houses through long leases or a "nominee company," providing the company is majority Thai-owned. It is common practice for such "shell companies" to include Thai nationals who have been paid to act as nominees to facilitate the deal and who have invested nothing in the purchase.

The new regulation, signed by Suraart Thoingniramol, deputy permanent secretary of the Interior Ministry, is designed to halt the use of such companies for property purchases in the future. "If it appears that an alien holds shares or is a director or it is reasonable to believe that a Thai holds shares as a representative of an alien, the officers shall investigate the income of Thais holding shares, delving into the number of years [they have spent] in the current profession and monthly salary," reads a translation of the law. "The provision of necessary evidence is required."

The new regulation is actually an enforcement of Thailand's existing laws, legal experts said. "It's not a radical change. It's a radical implementation," Ronachai said. The regulation has already started to stall home sales to foreigners, sources said.

"There's a lot of confusion," said Simon Landy, managing director of the Primo Co, a property-development firm. "Some land offices don't know what to do with it, and many have simply stopped transferring land."

Folks, this is bigger than you think.
Even if it turns out they cancel this law, or don't enforce this law, they have just thrown a tsunami's portion of icy cold water on the villa housing market for foreigners. People will realize anew that these phony company deals are on thin ice.

The question I have is this. What will this do to condo values?
In the more popular condos, 49 percent are owned by farangs, a certain percent are owned by Thais, and another certain percent are owned by farangs running phony companies. The farangs owning condos under companies will be in a big fix. They cannout sell to foreigners (building already 49 percent) so they can only sell to Thais, who will of course take advantage of their desperation and pay lower prices. What about the remaining farang owned condos, do they go up or down? They are in a building of radically declining values for the Thai and company owned condos, but their ownership structure is limited by number and much more desirable, so what happens? Up, same, or down for those farang owned condos? I haven't a clue because I have never heard of a market like that.

Of course, I am extra curious, because I own a foreign owned condo.

Mr T will prolly snap them all up cheap and then change the law again later when he wants to sell.

I just had an unsettling thought: How does a farang condo owner who is within the 49% KNOW that he is for sure part of the 49%? I mean, when you go to the land office to register a transfer, how extensive, or what kind of, a verification is made? Are there ledgers of each building showing the owners within 49%, or what?

When I bought my condo I was advised it was part of the 49%, and the property transfer went smoothly but, what if at some point it comes to light that my unit is NOT part of the 49%?

What I'm hoping for is some assurance that yes, the land office DOES a throrough check of the ownership percentages before registering a condo transfer to a farang. <fingers crossed> But, TiT, so......

[wowpow]

I think that the condo Manager or Juristic person has to provide a letter stating that your purchase is within the 49%.

Supposing this blows out and all the speculators have lost their capitals. All the builders quit their projects and the influx of foreign money comming into the country stops. Is the thai econmy strong enough to overcome this crisis. All those empty buildings fallen into dispair no tax money to pay the infra structures being put in place. It could and most likely will be very messy. All those people buying condos before they are built in hopes of making huge profits on resales. this will be interesting.

Supposing this blows out and all the speculators have lost their capitals. All the builders quit their projects and the influx of foreign money comming into the country stops. Is the thai econmy strong enough to overcome this crisis. All those empty buildings fallen into dispair no tax money to pay the infra structures being put in place. It could and most likely will be very messy. All those people buying condos before they are built in hopes of making huge profits on resales. this will be interesting.
Interesting. Interesting bad.
I like the theory that maybe this is a precursor to full foreign ownership legalization, but given Thai xenophobia, what are the chances of that?

Probably zero. Only a very small percentage of the world's nations allow foreigners to own land -- and with very good reason.

Probably zero. Only a very small percentage of the world's nations allow foreigners to own land -- and with very good reason.
Are you sure about that? For example, just in casually looking around, I have found foreigners can fully own land in:
Mexico (except near the ocean)
Argentina
Brazil
Canada
US
Malta
Costa Rica
Panama
Malaysia
Spain (probably most of western Europe)
Bulgaria

In fact, it seems much rarer to find a nation that has restrictions like Thailand (at least in places most people would want to buy in).

I started looking at your list, and got as far as Mexico (the first one). I found this statement on the net:

"The Mexican Constitution prohibits direct ownership of real estate by foreigners in what has come to be known as the "restricted zone." The restricted zone encompasses all land located within 100 kilometers (about 62 miles) of any Mexican border, and within 50 kilometers (about 31 miles) of any Mexican coastline."

Well...that's an awfully big restriction, basically ruling out the places where 99% of foreigners might actually want to buy land in Mexico.

We all know about developed countries. But how many nations of Thailand's level of development or below allow real, unrestricted foreign ownership of land? I think you will find that the answer is "almost none".

I started looking at your list, and got as far as Mexico (the first one). I found this statement on the net:

"The Mexican Constitution prohibits direct ownership of real estate by foreigners in what has come to be known as the "restricted zone." The restricted zone encompasses all land located within 100 kilometers (about 62 miles) of any Mexican border, and within 50 kilometers (about 31 miles) of any Mexican coastline."

Well...that's an awfully big restriction, basically ruling out the places where 99% of foreigners might actually want to buy land in Mexico.

We all know about developed countries. But how many nations of Thailand's level of development or below allow real, unrestricted foreign ownership of land? I think you will find that the answer is "almost none".
That is completely false. Most foreigners who own land in Mexico own in GUADALAJARA JALISCO (and nearby Lake Chapala), the city with the most US expats of anyplace on earth. It is well inland of course.

There are also many other very desirable inland areas of Mexico. Also, there is a totally secure and fully legal loophole to own land closer to the shore, it only requires some legal fees, and an annual fee, and I have never heard of any problems with that ownership scheme in Mexico, so it really is as good as total ownership.

What kind of logic is that? Most expats own property inland BECAUSE THAT IS THE ONLY PROPERTY THEY ARE ALLOWED TO OWN.

If they were allowed to buy up all that beautiful Caribbean and Pacific beach land, don't you think that's where they'd be?

In any case, the point is that foreign ownership of land in Mexico is far from unrestricted.

Anyway, that's one country at about the same level of economic development as Thailand. Where are the others, as well as the ones that are LESS developed? The only other one on your list is Brazil, and I haven't even looked to see what restrictions and exceptions are in place there.

Like I said, there is a legal secure loophole in Mexico, and you are also wrong, many people really love the Guadalajara area (as do I) because it is lovely, the food is great, and they have what many consider the best climate in the entire world.

But a lot more love the beaches, without a doubt.

But a lot more love the beaches, without a doubt.
And they can buy and own there, no problem, using the loopholes and paying some extra fees. not at all like Thailand.

[Davey612]

But a lot more love the beaches, without a doubt.
And they can buy and own there, no problem, using the loopholes and paying some extra fees. not at all like Thailand.

no, no, no, no Sir. Mexico is more transparent than Thailand. At least the Mexican government now recognizes the leasehold bank trusts that are used to de facto own beach front property. Not at all like Thailand, which hasn't change the laws about foreign ownership of land and may not, from what is being posted, turn a blind eye to those shell-company schemes.

[Up2U]

A friend sent me this from Asia Property Report. Puts Bangkok Post article in perspective:

http://www.property-report.com/archives ... &date=0606 (http://www.property-report.com/archives.php?id=499&date=0606)

Bangkok Post causes property panic

Panic swept through sections of the foreign investment community in Thailand on Tuesday night following publication online of a story in the Bangkok Post entitled New property law stuns foreigners. The piece, which appeared in print yesterday, drew attention to a directive from the land office in Chonburi.

Land in Thailand: still for sale after allPanic swept through sections of the foreign investment community in Thailand on Tuesday night following publication online of a story in the Bangkok Post entitled тАШNew property law stuns foreignersтАЩ. The piece, which appeared in print yesterday, drew attention to a directive from the land office in Chonburi which said that one of the traditional routes to property ownership for foreigners in Thailand тАУ 49% ownership of a Thai company тАУ would be put under increased scrutiny, and that the Thai shareholders involved would have to disclose their assets. Quickly picked up by popular forum site, ThaiVisa.com, the story had generated over 200 posts by 6pm yesterday. These ranged from anti-Thai rants, to questions about the future validity of condominium ownership and debates over when it is appropriate to put property in a Thai spouseтАЩs name.

Several agents around the country reported calls from Hong Kong and further afield, expressing concern about what had been written. They also expressed the opinion that the dramatic tone of the Post piece, with its quotes claiming тАШthe property boom ended on 25 MayтАЩ, amounted to unnecessary sensationalism.

The main effect of the directive has so far been confined to ChonburiтАЩs Land Office, which deals with Pattaya and the Eastern Seaboard, where, as of yesterday, title transfers have been refused. However, company representatives have merely been told to return the following week; no investigations into Thai shareholders have taken place.

тАЬI think it will all blow over,тАЭ a well-known Pattaya agent, who wished to speak off the record, said, тАЬprobably within a week or ten days. Ninety nine per cent of developments here are Thai owned and run, but they are selling to the foreign market and do not want to see this kind of thing happening. Similar things have happened in Chonburi in the past, with no foreign bank accounts being allowed and no work permits being issued for periods of time, so I am not overly concerned about this. However, it will understandably make new investors wary for a period of time.тАЭ

Samui lawyer Manit Taejaw, a partner in Miklaw Associates, had already received over 100 emails from concerned clients by 10 oтАЩclock yesterday morning. He also said that he had spoken to the Samui Land Office and that its officers had no knowledge of any new regulations coming into force. Transfers were continuing to take place as usual.

International law firm Belmont Limcharoen, which has offices in Bangkok, Samui and Phuket issued a press release on the news last night.

тАЬLand ownership issues will always be a sensitive issue amongst Thai people,тАЭ it said. тАЬThere would be controversial political consequences if any government in power attempts to change the Land Code to accommodate foreign ownership of land. Whilst many foreigners elect to arrange, with majority shareholding Thai partners, to set up Thai companies and thereby operate in a ┬┤grey area┬┤ of the law, we believe the most practical and legal way to deal with the issue of foreign ownership would be resolved by legislative means, that is passing an act similar to Landlord and Tenant Acts in other jurisdictions which provide proper protection of lessees under a lease with changes to the maximum term of a lease for foreigners.тАЭ

тАЬWhilst providing an opportunity to foreigners to have more secure investments in Thailand this would also solve the sensitivities attached to the concept or thought of foreigners тАЬowningтАЭ or indirectly owning land in the Kingdom of Thailand. Whilst such improved leasehold legislation does not presently exist, there will continue to be, as there has been for many years, debate on what constitutes a company that is set up illegally, or what has been set up legally and which is a good structure for investment in real estate by foreigners. Unless there is a clear law that states foreigners cannot inject monies into a Thai company which has real estate assets there will be opportunities for investment and ways of protecting investors who inject more monies than others into an investment.тАЭ

In an interview with Thailand Property Report last year Gary Biesty, managing partner in international law firm Johnson Stokes and Master spoke at length about foreign ownership of property in Thailand. He was asked if he thought foreign investors had become fairly blas├й about establishing companies to circumvent freehold laws, especially in resorts, and whether or not it concerned him.

тАЬAny attempt to circumvent the laws concerns me,тАЭ he responded. тАЬIt is possible within corporate commercial law in Thailand for companies to be created to allow foreign investors to enjoy effective freehold ownership. If properly followed and conscientiously adopted, this is not circumventing the law, it is simply following the law. So provided that those corporations are created in accordance with the law, I have no concern. If, as you suggest, people are becoming blas├й, then there is a danger, because that would suggest people are not correctly incorporating companies and with that, there is a much higher risk that they may ultimately find they donтАЩt effectively own the freehold that they thought they did.тАЭ

Although the directive in Chonburi will clearly require further clarification in the coming days, for now at least with no Thai parliament in session and, therefore, no possibility of new legislation being implemented, the law regarding foreign investment in real estate has not actually changed at all.

I think it is time that the USA and other countries mirror image each others land policies. If we can't own in thier country then they shouldn't be permitted to own in our country either. Our tax dollars go out into these countries by the billions and all we get is dumped on (and yes sometimes we should be but not this time)

I think it is time that the USA and other countries mirror image each others land policies. If we can't own in thier country then they shouldn't be permitted to own in our country either. Our tax dollars go out into these countries by the billions and all we get is dumped on (and yes sometimes we should be but not this time)

I think it is time that the USA and other countries mirror image each others land policies. If we can't own in thier country then they shouldn't be permitted to own in our country either. Our tax dollars go out into these countries by the billions and all we get is dumped on (and yes sometimes we should be but not this time)
Not a chance.
The US is externally xenophobic. Most Americans cannot relate at all to why Americans would want to own land outside the USA, so there would be zero political benefit for legislators to pursue this, it would just piss off a bunch of friendly countries.

Use your head, luvthai. Japan is one of the biggest investors in the US...think of the money they've poured into Hawaii, plus assembly facilities for Toyota, etc., etc. Foreigners cannot own land in Japan. Do you think there is a chance in hell that the US would prevent Japanese from owning land in the US?

Oh, and luvthai...since you're so into reciprocity, why don't you petition the Thai government to make visa privileges reciprocal? Make it as difficult (and expensive) for Americans and Brits to visit Thailand as it is for Thais to visit the US and the UK. Yeah, that would work, eh?

[cottmann]

Use your head, luvthai. Japan is one of the biggest investors in the US...think of the money they've poured into Hawaii, plus assembly facilities for Toyota, etc., etc. Foreigners cannot own land in Japan. Do you think there is a chance in hell that the US would prevent Japanese from owning land in the US?

Foreigners have been allowed to own land in Japan since 1926.

[Davey612]

Oh, and luvthai...since you're so into reciprocity, why don't you petition the Thai government to make visa privileges reciprocal? Make it as difficult (and expensive) for Americans and Brits to visit Thailand as it is for Thais to visit the US and the UK. Yeah, that would work, eh?

I don't know about the UK, but I doubt Thailand is THAT dependent on U.S. tourists or expatriates. Other countries, such as Brazil and Chile, do impose the same amount of visa fees as the U.S. government does. I am not sure whether that has slowed down the amount of U.S. tourists to those countries. But I doubt whether the imposition by the Thai government of a $100 visa fee on U.S. tourists would slow down the number of those who go to Thailand to partake of sights other than temples.

Forget the fee...what if Americans and Brits who wanted to holiday in Thailand had to go through demeaning interviews, lay bare their finances, and still face a significant chance of rejection?

[Davey612]

Forget the fee...what if Americans and Brits who wanted to holiday in Thailand had to go through demeaning interviews, lay bare their finances, and still face a significant chance of rejection?

Hey, what happened to your message about Taiwan? I guess you found out that Taiwan allows foreign ownership of land on a reciprocal basis.

As to the interviews, yes, you are right. If I were just a tourists who is mainly interested in sightseeing, then it is not worth going through the interview process.

But that is not the point. The point has to do with where it is more desirable to go to make a living (or the perception of doing so). I guess I am going off the topic, but I bet prospective Burmese or Cambodian citizens who want to find a way to visit (if that is possible) in Thailand would meet the same kind of exhausting and humilliating interviews as Thais face with U.S. consuls.

Do remember that it is not the U.S. consul who is making it hard, it is U.S. immigration laws that assume anyone who wants to go to the U.S. is an immigrant. It will be up to the U.S. Congress (and U.S. citizens) to change that pressumption.

Yes, I learned that Taiwan recently changed its laws, which is standard I guess when a country reaches a certain level of development. Thailand is a long way off from that stage. Countries at Thailand's level or lower which allow unrestricted foreign property ownerships are very rare exceptions. It just does not make sense for a developing or undeveloped country to sell off its primary resources to foreigners -- at least without a lot of restrictions.

PS: it is easy as punch for nationals of any country -- certainly Burma and Cambodia -- to visit Thailand as a tourist.

[Davey612]

PS: it is easy as punch for nationals of any country -- certainly Burma and Cambodia -- to visit Thailand as a tourist.

On that one, I defer to you. I was making a judgment based on the way Thai media reports about illegal labor from Burma and Cambodia.

Apples and oranges. Those people are working illegally.

Unfriendly to foreign investors

Editor;

Yesterday my attorney went into the Pattaya Land Office to register a land transfer for a parcel of land in Pattaya from a private Thai name (seller) into a Thai company name (buyer). I (a farang) was listed as a 49% shareholder and five Thais were listed as the 51% shareholders in the company. For many previous transactions over many years, this has always satisfied the government regulations and the name change on the land title deed papers was always approved. Now - so sorry - new government directive from Bangkok. 1) all shareholders must be present at the land office and their identities verified for this type of transfer to occur, 2) if there are any foreign shareholders, the change will not be approved. Over forty transactions were rejected the first day of this new directive. Effectively this prevents any foreigner from investing in new property transactions; land or houses in Thai company names and condo projects exceeding the 49% foreign ownership rule. Way to go Thailand - a great way to make this country investor friendly!

Signed,
Looking Elsewhere

www.pattayamail.com/current/letters.shtml (http://www.pattayamail.com/current/letters.shtml)

A friend of mine's thai boyfriend has a good job as a Chemical Engineer, and often travels outside of Thailand for his work, was turned down by the US consulate for a US tourist VISA. Just show you what A-holes the US consulate is as far as giving single male thais US Tourist VISAs.

On the original subject of this thread, This was in the BKK Post recently:

Thailand is facing the biggest crisis in its history, and I am not
talking about the political chaos. The decision to implement the law as
regards foreign ownership of land via a Thai company controlled by an
alien (bogus company, if you like) has the potential of costing this
country billions and billions in foreign investment.

Thousands of foreigners have used Thai companies to purchase high-end
land and housing packages all over Thailand, especially in Phuket, Koh
Samui, Pattaya, Bangkok and Chiang Mai. The word spreading like a
bushfire throughout the real estate industry and among reputable agents is
that overnight, foreigners have stopped buying. The price of real estate
must plummet and will do so quickly.

The government official or department responsible for enforcing and
closing this foreign ownership loophole may well have the dubious credit
of bringing real estate and, ultimately, the Thai economy to its knees.

Already in less than a week the loss of confidence by foreign property
investors is bordering on the catastrophic.

It is not as if foreign-owned land will ever be taken out of Thailand
and the irony of it all is that a high percentage of property owned
under a Thai company controlled by a foreigner will eventually be
bequeathed to a female or male Thai national.

The only way confidence may be restored and to avert an economic
catastrophe is for the Thai government to change the law to allow foreigners
to own land, even limited to one rai, just as the law was changed to
allow foreigners to own condominiums in their own name.
--

[wowpow]

We read with interest the article in the Bangkok Post dated 31 May 2006 entitled, тАЬNew Regulation Causes Confusion.тАЭ Since the article has caused some concern in the expatriate and business community, we researched the basis of the statements made in the article.

The Ministry of Interior informed us that there was no regulation dated 25 May 2006 as was referred to in the article, and that the closest document that they have to such a regulation as described in the article was a circular letter dated 15 May 2006.

According to that circular letter, a company involved in the real estate business with a significant foreign shareholding, and where the use of Thai nominees (front men) is suspected, may come under investigation when the company has the objective of engaging in the real property business.

Trading real property is a business prohibited to non-Thai companies and persons and is listed on List 1 of the Foreign Business Act, which is the most strictly prohibited category of businesses. There are 2 other lists of prohibited businesses where restrictions and punishments are less severe.

Although the use of Thai nominees to evade the Foreign Business Act or Land Act is illegal, general enforcement is not, apparently, the objective of the circular letter. The circular letter is aimed particularly at the companies engaged in the real estate business and not limited companies that purchase real property for objectives other than the real property business. There are many business activities other than the real estate business. For example, limited companies may purchase real estate for resort operations, company headquarters, fitness centers, research facilities, factories and a host of other activities.

The companies that would likely be affected by the circular letter would be real estate development and real estate sales companies using Thai nominees that are in actuality managed by or for the benefit of non-Thai nationals. Such an activity would also be in violation of the Foreign Business Act by engaging in a business listed on List 1 of business activities prohibited to non-Thai nationals.

An English translation of the circular letter can be found on our website at http://www.sgalegal.com/landletter15May60.html. This is our opinion, and persons taking any legal action, are advised, as usual, to consult with their own attorney.

Siam Global Associates, Co. Ltd.

Well I see that you are still in your cynical rut. Don't you ever have anything nice to say or contribute without the ever present evil intent? I was speaking tic for tat on land and ownership. I agree with you on the visa and immigration issues as I would like to see all countries have open borders but unfortunately there are some evil people out there and a few rotten apples have spoiled it for everyone. Since thailand is the issue here and thais own property in the US, The King and his family have extensive holdings in California and Thanskin has major holdings thruout the states. I just think it fair to alow us the same privilege in land and home ownership.

Well I see that you are still in your cynical rut. Don't you ever have anything nice to say or contribute without the ever present evil intent? I was speaking tic for tat on land and ownership. I agree with you on the visa and immigration issues as I would like to see all countries have open borders but unfortunately there are some evil people out there and a few rotten apples have spoiled it for everyone. Since thailand is the issue here and thais own property in the US, The King and his family have extensive holdings in California and Thanskin has major holdings thruout the states. I just think it fair to alow us the same privilege in land and home ownership.
Fairness? Made me laugh.

[catawampuscat]

My last regular thought I was stupid renting when I could buy a house or condo and not throw out money
in a rental..When I explained the ownership issue in Thailand, his solution was easy..Buy the house in his
name (Thai citizen) and this would solve the problem..

Well , of course it would make one thing certain; that I would get screwed... I have heard of one way to
get around this thou, and it is to buy the property in the boy's name and take a long term rental lease out
guaranteeing you will have use of the property until you are in the next paradise (oh, no, not the one with the
twenty virgins!!).. You can't leave it in your estate and the boy , now older man with seven kids and a couple of
wives, will get the property... At least you will get kissed when you get screwed... :cat:

...buy the property in the boy's name and take a long term rental lease out
guaranteeing you will have use of the property until you are in the next paradise...

And I'm sure he will happily help you find the enlightened path to paradise.

This is a serious subject. could we do with out so much useless talk and keep on the subject.

[Aunty]

So how might this change of rule impact upon the development of that 90 storey Australian designed monstrosity in Pattaya, what was it called again? Death Trap Tower? Phallic Heights for the Penis Challenged? What about all those speculators who rushed in and brought off the plans? Done their money???

And what will this uncertainty do to real estate values in Thailand generally, especially to those properties which are in markets that Farang are interested in like Bangkok, Chang Mai, Phuket ,etc?

Jesus, one day I'll learn to type properly.

So how might this change of rule impact upon the development of that 90 storey Australian designed monstrosity in Pattaya, what was it called again? Death Trap Tower? Phallic Heights for the Penis Challenged? What about all those speculators who rushed in and brought off the plans? Done their money???

And what will this uncertainty do to real estate values in Thailand generally, especially to those properties which are in markets that Farang are interested in like Bangkok, Chang Mai, Phuket ,etc?

Jesus, one day I'll learn to type properly.
That's a good question, because if people can't buy through their companies, that means 51 percent need to be sold to Thais. I think there is still a good chance this will all blow over after awhile, and back to the bizarre world of "normal" but it will certainly throw some cold water and doubt on the whole market.

[Impulse]

Well,just my luck I purchased a studio in the view talet 5 project and have put down quite a bit of baht down already.It is said to be ready in August and I was hopeing to get there and pay it off and get to the land office in time to put it in my name.It looks like I wont be in the good 49% so I might have to do the company thing,but now who knows?Why would they sell me a unit if they know I cant own it? Hmmm

[Davey612]

Do I smell some uncertainty among expats? Maybe a lot of us have got too cozy with the belief that Thailand is the best of both worlds: Relatively inexpensive and with adequate inflastructure.

But maybe why it is inexpensive is because we are taking a risk with lack of transparency from the government? It is like paying for high yield third world country bonds. They are selling at a high discount and high rate in order to compensate for the risks taken by investors. In this sense, the relatively inexpensive beach area properties in Thailand compensates for the risk of vague ownership.

I think the law clearly states who can own land. Just because Thai authorities have been turning a blind eye to the company loophole does not mean it becomes a precedent. It is after all, a risk that is reflected in the discount purchase price. The latest hype about property prices going up made some of us forget about the risks. I am glad that this latest scare has alerted all prospective foreign buyers about the risks involved.

Who is to say that at any given point down the road that they decide to enforce the law. Anyone buying property will always be faced with the possibility of losing everything. If they start to investigate what is already owned and has been owned for years even these owners will be at risk and the resale to other foreigners ( at a profit) unlikely.

Regarding the new View Talay unit, I suggest doing everything you can to try to get in the 49 percent foriegn ownership. The View Talay company has no special powers to help you, how totally absurd! If you are stuck with having to be in the Thai 51 percent, and you try to get it through a phony company, and you are not allowed, you will simply most likely either have to lose the money you already put into it, or put it in a "trusted" Thai's name. Good luck. Like I said before, View Talay company does NOT guarantee foreign ownership for off the plan condos! Some of the tonier developers like the ones behind Northshore (49 percent sold out long ago) will guarantee that if bought off the plan.
If you want to buy, best bet now is an already existing condo already in a foreign name.

[Up2U]

"Well,just my luck I purchased a studio in the view talet 5 project and have put down quite a bit of baht down already.It is said to be ready in August and I was hopeing to get there and pay it off and get to the land office in time to put it in my name.It looks like I wont be in the good 49% so I might have to do the company thing,but now who knows?Why would they sell me a unit if they know I cant own it? Hmmm".......if your contract was among the first 49% sold you should have no problem assuming you are in full compliance with the contract terms. This has been told to me by several sources who deal with View Talay. Will View Talay tell you if you are among the lucky 49% at this time?....I doubt it. Look at your contract number and hopefully it has a low number or early date, this may be an indicator if you're among the 49%. I have the same concerns as you since I also bought at View Talay.

Don't put me down on the doom and gloom crowd.
I would bet that this scare about phony company crackdowns will eventually blow over, but not right away, and it has already had an effect.

[Impulse]

Im sure Im not in the sacred 49 percentile since I bought directly from view taley as recently as last November.In fact I had reserved a unit in view taley 7 and after being shown by a realtor the view taley 5 project I decided to buy there.The realtor was none too pleased as he thought he had reserved about 10 units on the 21st floor.After swapping from vt7 to 5 at the vt sales office i went back to the realtor and told him vt sold the unit directly to me(realtor now out of the commision of about 100,000 baht.)Maybe if the unit I purchased was still in the realtors name it might have been in the 49%,but since it was sold by vt Im one of the last purchasers. At the time I was assured that buying a condo was very safe and buying land or a house was risky.One realtor mentioned that he only remembered one foreighner loseing his unit by not keeping up with the paperwork for his company.The only Thai i know and kinda trust works at a hotel in boystown who was planning on opening a restaurant with his sister.He did offer to stay and take care of my condo while I was gone,lol.

[Impulse]

LMTU,I would go to the expats meeting tomarrow if I wasnt half way around the world from Pattaya right now.Ill be there in August and I look forward to seeing you there and having some great laughs,your sense of humour is unparalleld,thanks for making my trip there last November that much better.Believe me,I will be talking to lawyers and such when I arrive,not much i can do right now,what an adventure trying to talk to a representative at view taley office.

The phony companies to own houses are exactly the same structure of the phony companies to own condos. So owning a condo that way is of course no safer than owning a house that way. The only secure way to own in Thailand is a condo in your own name, 49 percent part. I say phony company because everyone knows theses are not real companies formed for a legitimate purpose. Actually, there is a much safer option for a owning a house, the lease back arrangements, that I have never heard of this scheme used for a condo. That is where you lease the land and build the house, with a 30 year lease. I wonder if a condo developer could offer such a scheme? Now, that would be an interesting, positive, development.

[wowpow]

I was in their sales office a couple of days ago. The information that I get there has varied over time but the latest is:

View Talay 5 completion date is currently late September/early October - maybe

Total sales are around 65% of the beachside property. Of this just over 50% is to foreigners. View Talay get all the properties registered to themselves and then transfer to the puchasers on completion of the finances. Until recently the early purchasers got total ownership and the remainer got an 'off the shelf company ownership' organised by View Talay or made their own company. They have no information on what will happen to those outside the 49% curently and are awaiting a resolution of the current crisis.

I was assured that as an early purchaser I would have no problem in getting the title deeds in my name if I came and concluded the finances as the building was completed for occupancy.

The goods lift is now working and I had a good look around. The main entrance looks very spacious and is all granite and pattern with shop units. The corridors are all granite floored in various colours and very smart. Doors are in dark wood with stainless steel furniture. The windows are in and the tiles to the balconies and bathrooms completed. The exterior painting is almost complete and it looks quite and attractive block - by Pattaya standards!

I will post this on my 'For Sale trail'

[Impulse]

I like the location of view taley5,right near the beach and a short walk to a baht bus.Ive gotta tell you the views are awesome,even from the rear section of the building.I dont know why vt7 is that much higher in price.The vt 3 is true beachfront but im not thrilled with the location of it.The larger balconies are a big improvement over vt1 and 2.Risk is a large part of Thai real estate,who would have thought that they would put a condo in front of Jomtien complex.I really feel for those with units there.

what price ranges are we talking for view talay condos these days?

[Impulse]

A studio near the top of view taley 5 goes for about 2 million,whereas in vt7 its about 2.8 or 3 million,48 square meters for both.maybe vt7 will be more upscale than 5,no jokes please. :cyclops:

A studio near the top of view taley 5 goes for about 2 million,whereas in vt7 its about 2.8 or 3 million,48 square meters for both.maybe vt7 will be more upscale than 5,no jokes please. :cyclops:
I assume you mean shell units?

[catawampuscat]

For the "maybe this will blow over" crowd, you should know that the real estate market is very emotional and very difficult to turn around.. Booms seem
to go up up up and then down down when things change..Big changes are things like stock market crashes, depressions, wars, large interest rate
increases and fear and panic..

Only a fool would buy something that may not be legal in a foreign country where they have few rights and where they might not be able to resell..
One friend is in a bad spot now.. He bought an expensive house using the phony corporation scheme and was assured over and over that it was no problem.. He is a nervous type and cannot sleep and wants to get out before the shit hits the fan.. He is ready to take a bath with the price just to ease his nerves.. He can afford to take a loss but is so upset by this situation that he is having sleep and other physical problems.. His bf suggested putting it in
the boys name and I referenced that in a humourous way (I tried anyway) and this friend may go that route with a long lease..

A lot of Thais are going to end up owning houses if the law is upheld.. Re-sale market is difficult to start with as preference here is for new construction
and there is so much supply.. Many farangs over decorate their homes with very expensive applicances and fixtures and try to get the expenses back
when they sell but it is difficult..
Would anyone buy a house now?? It is a buyer's market but only for the brave hearted and the bottom feeders.. Fear is in the air and only fools choose to
ignore it and listen to the hype.. I wonder if all the ads trying to sell in the new Jomtien towers before completion smelled this coming?? Speculators
really keep their ears open and jump ship when it gets rocky... good luck to all ... :cat:

I still think it is too early to conclude how this is all going to shake out. If I held an existing house or condo with a phony company, I would sit tight. I haven't heard anything about going after existing phony companies, only new ones.
There are all sorts of conspiracy theories now about who is behind this, and I don't pretend to understand Thai politics, but Thailand is in a strange time right now, and things will be more clear after the next election.

You could have saved a lot of typing in your last post if you just had said these 4 words. The sky is falling.

You were way, way, way too pessimistic and just caused some to lose more sleep. But then, maybe that was your aim?

[catawampuscat]

goodlad,
I hope you are right and since I am a renter and have no interest in owning or selling, I have no agenda..
I hope goodlad that you are not an ostrich who sticks its head in the ground when there is danger and overly optimistic.. I imagine you do have
an interest, either as an owner, buyer or seller or maybe as a developer.. Panic and fear are real and this market could go down significantly and
it might be appropriate to lose a little sleep if you are overextended like some speculators are or if you are a land/property owner/developer...
I don't think any action is appropriate at the moment but denying a state of fear and panic exists is just not realistic and one has to be careful
especially if retired or on a limited pension..
Nobody knows who is too pessimistic or optimistic until the situation clears up and I truly hope nobody loses their shirt but I am also glad I am not
caught up in this change in implementation of law about foreign ownership... good luck to all and a good nights sleep goodlad.....

[Aunty]

Well I tend to agree with catawampuscat. Real estate markets and values are all about perception, not facts. Perception determines confidence. Even if all this turns out to be little more than a storm in a tea cup the damage has been done. The perception now is that the whole real estate market of Thailand for non-Thai is dodgy, insecure and that any money invested there is at enormous risk. Indeed what change for the worst might take place in the future? The whole spectre of Thailand being little more than a third-world nation where the rules are arbitrarily changed at whim of god knows who for god knows what purpose raises its ugly head. Confidence, the most crucial thing a buyer must have to sign off on a deal, has now gone in Thailand's farang real estate market. And a market that has an oversupply of product and with little confidence in it is one that's about to go bust.

What Farang now will have the confidence to buy real estate in Thailand? Who would take the risk? I'm not talking about those who want to move there or retire there, their reasons for buying a place are different. I'm talking about those who want to buy a holiday home/condo there or those who want to invest there, which is likely to be the bulk of buyers and the ones who have up to now, being underpinning the market. They'll dry up faster than a lake in the desert! Who will the buyers be now? It could take months to years for confidence to come back in to this market if it's not handled adroitly by the Thai authorities and there's no reason to assume that it will be.

[Impulse]

Ive always felt since my first visit to Thailand in February of 2005 that there was a great possiblity of a condo glut forming.This recent scare could be the event that causes a collapse in prices,if so it might be a great opportunity for some bargains.All great buys are from events which cause investors to panic. Im hopeing this blows over and investors come out ok,what we write on this message board has no affect on the market so no need to criticise peoples opinions. my international real estate investment news letter actually has Thailand as number 1 place to invest in real estate out of about 50 countries.They also like Nicaruagua,which is very risky and i think you must buy a lease for so many years,panama and croatia is high on their list.Croatia and Nicaruagua had fairly recent wars going on which creates opportunuties,Panama had noriega(pineapplehead) which scared off investors.Right now the U.S is too high and not a bargain so Thailand looks cheap to me,but who knows I might get burned and lose all my money ive put into vt 5,time will tell.I think if you bought in all the scariest situations you would be way ahead of the game instead of buying in inflated markets where everyone is talking about how much money they made in real estate,of course this could be said of thailand now.

Thailand isn't very cheap anymore. Nicaraguan war is long ago history, from what I have studied, beachfront in Nicaragua is still an incredible bargain (but who wants to live there)? Anyway, put me down for someone who does believe there is NOT going to be a crash in condo prices (not sure about houses). Thailand real estate holders tend to NOT SELL during "crashes" and just wait out the market. Also, many buyers will be baby boomers who want to lock in a retirement spot many years before retirement, because if they wait too long, they might not be able to afford it later.
I am pretty certain this will all blow over, that companies will continue to be a viable way to buy, but personally I would never recommend buying that way to anyone. If you want to buy, buy a condo in your name!

Some people, including me, do not want to live in a box with zero personality ala condo. We prefer a real house, big or small. Some grass, big or small. The risk? Nobody wants that.
I'm hoping this enforcement will last about as long as the one a.m closing time for bars.

[Up2U]

I believe changes in the implementation of the property law were on the agenda at one or both of the Pattaya Expat Clubs meetings last Sunday. Perhaps a board member who attended could report on any news of relevance?

[Up2U]

A follow-up article from the Bangkok Post:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/Business/05Jun2006_biz02.php

[Impulse]

Sure,condos arnt for everyone,but theres a safety issue when your living overseas.Also I happen to like heights and sunset views which you cant always get with a house.It all depends on your needs,some people dont have time for a yard or all the maintenance that goes with a house.I would love to have a place 91 floors up but i would have to sell my residence here in the states in order to afford it.To each their own,I even hear that some men like having sex with other men. :cheers:

This is from Thai law book on land does it make sense.
Limited Liability Company

This form of purchasing property is the most popular with foreign investors
as the Articles of Association can be varied to allow greater protection for
foreign minority shareholders where majority Thai ownership is required under
the Alien Business Law.
Thai law requires that 51% of the shares be held by Thai juristic persons,
however, any company with more than 40% foreign interest that purchases
land will be investigated by the Central Land Office in Bangkok (under section
74 of the Land Code) to ensure that the company has not been organized in
an attempt to circumvent the prohibition against foreign ownership of land.

This results in the foreign ownership of the company being limited at 39%
(only if buying land), but with the recommended changes of the Articles of
Association, the foreigner can be the only director of the company, and the
only person of the company who can commit or bind the company in any
contractual dealings (buy or sell land and house), effectively giving the
minority shareholders control over the company.

What happens to those that are found to have bought their land/homes/condos wrongly? I am sure everyone buying property did so in what they believed was the right way or did so under instructions/guidance from another. I would hope that the buyers would have some options such as maybe just a penalty.

I would hope that they have their illegally-registered assets repossessed and auctioned off to the rest of us at discount prices.

Life isn't fair, and it is especially unfair in Thailand. Buyer beware.

What's unfair? Law states what's legal and what's not. Foreigner ignores it, and does something absolutely, irrefutably illegal. Foreigner gets punished.

Sounds perfectly fair to me.

What's unfair? Law states what's legal and what's not. Foreigner ignores it, and does something absolutely, irrefutably illegal. Foreigner gets punished.

Sounds perfectly fair to me.
No dude, that is total BS.
People were SUCKERED and SOLD into these bad deals, and told by THAI LAWYERS and SLEAZY REAL ESTATE DEVELOPERS that they were both safe and legit. I know this for a fact because I met several of these people. Now, I am a smart guy and didn't fall for it, but not everyone who did deserves what is happening to them now. In a country with the rule of law (not Thailand) those salespeople and lawyers would be liable. So, like I said, Thailand is an especially unfair country.

You just get dumber and dumber, don't you?

First of all, the vast majority of the real estate people are FARANGS -- not Thais. Take a look at the Pattaya real estate sites. How many of them are run by Thais? None that I can think of.

Now...about being "suckered". Someone comes to you and says, go ahead -- steal something, kill someone, avoid taxes -- it's OK, you won't get caught / they don't enforce that law / it'll be all right. I don't call that being a sucker. I call that breaking the law because someone told you it was all right. I say, lock 'em up!

You just get dumber and dumber, don't you?

First of all, the vast majority of the real estate people are FARANGS -- not Thais. Take a look at the Pattaya real estate sites. How many of them are run by Thais? None that I can think of.

Now...about being "suckered". Someone comes to you and says, go ahead -- steal something, kill someone, avoid taxes -- it's OK, you won't get caught / they don't enforce that law / it'll be all right. I don't call that being a sucker. I call that breaking the law because someone told you it was all right. I say, lock 'em up!
You sound like a real asshole. I never said the salesmen were Thais, did I? I said the LAWYERS they use are Thai, because they have to be Thai, this is Thailand! It doesn't matter the nationality anyway, believe me, they were telling people quite clearly it is SAFE and LEGAL, and not saying the truth, it is illegal but not enforced. I experienced this myself. Most dramatically from a very powerful company in Pattaya, the developers of the View Talay Residences (not the condo people, totally different company). You would not have believed the hard sell to open a phony company from those people!

The law couldn't be clearer. I can't believe someone investing in something as significant as a piece of real estate wouldn't even take the time to read it, relying on what a snake oil salesman real estate broker told them. I have no sympathy.

The law couldn't be clearer. I can't believe someone investing in something as significant as a piece of real estate wouldn't even take the time to read it, relying on what a snake oil salesman real estate broker told them. I have no sympathy.
Why am I not surprised?
My point is that yes, you are correct, the salesmen are sleazy, but in many countries other than Thailand, they would be arrested. This doesn't happen in Thailand, so indeed, buyers need to be much more careful. So, we agree, OK, asshole?

Ha, good one. If that were the case, US jails would be full of real estate brokers and used car salesmen. It's caveat emptor, wherever you are.

[Impulse]

I lay the blame on the realtors for their neverending support of the foreign owned company policy.In a popular real estate publication there was an article by a realtor stateing that he and all the smart investors were buying houses so when the day came that foreigners could buy any property they wanted all they would have to do is switch from their company and into their own name.This is quite a gamble and wishful thinking on his part,but if the day Thailand decides to"sell off" its properties to the highest bidders it would prove to be a very smart one,for the ones already owning property.Ive lost much more money in the stock market at diferent points in time,gambling as well,so if I must take a loss in Thai real estate so be it,Im wondering if anyone knows how to go about a possible tax write off with the IRS here in the states.Ive taken plenty with stocks but real estate only goes up over time so no losses in that,this could be a first.

[Aunty]

What's unfair? Law states what's legal and what's not. Foreigner ignores it, and does something absolutely, irrefutably illegal. Foreigner gets punished.

Sounds perfectly fair to me.

Well this is one time I agree with boygeenyus. It's a well established principle that ignorance of the law is no defence, and the fact that the a company has to be registered in order for a farang to buy property in Thailand should have been a red flag to anyone that something unusual is up. After all why would such an atypical instrument be needed were it not to circumvent the law that foreign land ownership under Thai law was illegal? Foreign land ownership is illegal in many countries, hardly something unusual or unexpected. So who is really being deceived here? Surely the purpose of the company would have been explianed to them? Did they not ask any questions?

I hope these people took independent legal advice from a Thai lawyer before they purchased their properties and didn't rely upon lawyers arranged through the real estate agent/company or property developer/company, a big no no wherever you live!

I respect the different perspectives here, but consider the fact that the Thai authorities have known perfectly well that these bogus real estate structures have been going on for YEARS, and they not only have not enforced them, they also have not taken any action to SHUT DOWN both the Thai and farang business operations pushing these deals. Now, they decide to enforce. Where was the enforcement on the deal pushers before? I still feel most of the blame is on the deal pushers and the Thai authorities for letting this mess grow to this stage to begin with. But lets be real. Why the need for all these absurd games of ownership. Totally irrational Thai xenophobia about foreign land ownership. Is there any hope this root cause is going to get any better? Maybe, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

[Aunty]

I respect the different perspectives here, but consider the fact that the Thai authorities have known perfectly well that these bogus real estate structures have been going on for YEARS, and they not only have not enforced them, they also have not taken any action to SHUT DOWN both the Thai and farang business operations pushing these deals. Now, they decide to enforce.

So why do you think they have chosen to do it now Thaiquila? Have the Thai become worried that too much real estate is falling under the control of foreigners, that the market has become overheated and is pricing Thai out? Or is it something more sinister than that?

I respect the different perspectives here, but consider the fact that the Thai authorities have known perfectly well that these bogus real estate structures have been going on for YEARS, and they not only have not enforced them, they also have not taken any action to SHUT DOWN both the Thai and farang business operations pushing these deals. Now, they decide to enforce.

So why do you think they have chosen to do it now Thaiquila? Have the Thai become worried that too much real estate is falling under the control of foreigners, that the market has become overheated and is pricing Thai out? Or is it something more sinister than that?
I really don't know, but it all sounds too disorganized to be a conspiracy. I think this might be a kind of trial baloon to guage the reactions from Thais and foreigners. I still think this will lead to some kind of future change, and even possibly an improvement that a lot of farangs are going to like. But meanwhile, those holding phony company assets are losing alot of sleep, and possibly alot more ...

Thaiquila, I think you will find the sales person you are referring to is no longer employed by the company you have identified above. The company is Pattaya PropertyтАЩs who have many gay customers. I've been dealing with them for many years now and I have complete respect for them..that doesn't always mean there will be the occassional employee who will do the wrong thing ( in any organisation ) but overall..this is probably one of the most respected and well managed property companies in Pattaya.

For some months I have been communicating by email with the sales manager. He told me he bought his house through a Thai company.

However, when I arrived here and met this person at their office he was very up front and outlined to me in detail what has occurred recently. He said there was a lease back system that would allow me to proceed to purchase a land/house/villa but he advised me to wait and see the outcome of the furore over foreign controlled Thai companies. He belives it will come to a head soon but as regards buying now he advised me to wait.

I was disappointed because I came here specifically to buy or lay the foundations to buy a property in Pattaya, but I greatly appreciated the advice given by this person.

I am sure you are right about sleazy sales representatives and not just in real estate and not just in Thailand. But this person could not have been more obliging and helpful. The fact is I was ready to buy and he told me not to. There was not one hint of pressure.

To confirm what I have said I suggest you enquire for yourself. Ask for the sales manager and seek his opinion and ask questions. I would be interested in your experience and your response.

.According to this person the irony of the matter is the Land Office IS transferring the titles of condominiums into foreign controlled Thai companies. If you can by a condo via a тАЬbogusтАЭ company, why canтАЩt you buy land/house/villa. TIT.

There's been so much talk around town about the latest announcements but I think we will all be pleasantly surprised in the end..Thailand is not going to give up the gold mine it has created for itself with their Farang retirees and ex-pats..we are so well behaved afterall !!

I reckon this is the government getting it's house in order to lay the foundations of more security !! OK now after you have picked yourself up from the floor laughing if you have a chance to lay your hands on a book called "Thailand Confidential" by ex-Rolling Stone Magazine writer Jerry Hopkins it gives some great little insights into understanding the Thai character !!!..if that's at all possible.

Everyone take a valium and have another G & T and cool off..has your Aunty Pearl ever been wrong ????

I didn't want to name names but I was given a lecture by a person at a VERY HIGH office in that company about the "safety" and "legality" of buying through a company (a condo in my case), I was referred to him by a salesmen when I gave the objection of company ownership (they claimed they had no foreign owned units to sell me).

And you really feel sorry for farangs who would deal with such a slimeball, going around bragging that they could get around the law because they paid off government officials? If I heard that, I'd head tail the other way.

And you really feel sorry for farangs who would deal with such a slimeball, going around bragging that they could get around the law because they paid off government officials? If I heard that, I'd head tail the other way.
OK, I agree with you 100 percent about getting out of there, but I have more sympathy with the victimized farangs, because it can be quite hard to understand who things are really done in Thailand, things are totally different than a Western country, I think people could have been persuaded that this was the only legal way they were going to own property.

Based on the spiel you describe, there is NO WAY the "victims" could have misunderstood it to be legal. They were told there was a foolproof way for getting around the law -- when in fact anyone with half a brain knows there is no such thing.

Based on the spiel you describe, there is NO WAY the "victims" could have misunderstood it to be legal. They were told there was a foolproof way for getting around the law -- when in fact anyone with half a brain knows there is no such thing.
I actually see your point. But I have more compassion for those who bought it, because I still see the criminal behavior from the seller, not the buyer, and remember, many buyers desperately want to buy, and then they encounter this Byzantine xenophobic anti-foreigner land system. The "sleazeballs" are taking advantag of people's desperation.

"Desperation"???

You're desperate for food if you're starving, desperate for oxygen if drowning, desperate for a cure if you have cancer.

No one is "desperate" to buy a vacation home, unless they're looking to make a quick buck as a speculator. Renting a house has always been a perfectly viable option. No one "needs" to own it.

"Desperation"???

You're desperate for food if you're starving, desperate for oxygen if drowning, desperate for a cure if you have cancer.

No one is "desperate" to buy a vacation home, unless they're looking to make a quick buck as a speculator. Renting a house has always been a perfectly viable option. No one "needs" to own it.
Lots of retirees buy and they understandably want to own their home in their new land, just as they usually did in their home country. It is a very normal natural and human impulse to not want to have a landlord.

Yes, many "deisre" to own a place. But we can't all have everything we desire, can we? Not legally, anyway.

Yes, many "deisre" to own a place. But we can't all have everything we desire, can we? Not legally, anyway.
Fair enough, apparantly not.

I respect the different perspectives here, but consider the fact that the Thai authorities have known perfectly well that these bogus real estate structures have been going on for YEARS, and they not only have not enforced them, they also have not taken any action to SHUT DOWN both the Thai and farang business operations pushing these deals. Now, they decide to enforce.But This Is Thailand. You can't expect the authorities to enforce the law just because it is there. That's why brothels, go-go bars, casinos and all the other illegal activities in Thailand flourish pretty much in open sight. Don't expect consistency - it doesn't happen

and from the many people I know who have done business with the same firm and who recommended them to me..for which I am extremely grateful for.

Again it is very dificult to know exactly where anything that happens in Thailand is leading to..it's all wheels within wheels and the mistake we Farangs always make is to try to understand it from our own upbringings and impose our standards ( right or wrong) upon a alien society.

Both are used constantly to effect desirable outcomes in all levels of society. I still have conversations with Farangs who have lived here for years , are very wealthy and have a wonderful lifestyle but still bitch about the way business can be done here or call Thai citizens "hypocrits" for the manner in which things are done. A Thai Buddhit will not work in a abatoir for instance but will hapily carve and serve meat in a restaurant. There is a totally different mindset that we will never fully comprehend and it's not for us to say it's right or wrong if we choose to live amongst these people.

boygeorge should have some understanding of this..as he comes from that kangaroo overun land whose farmers have been bribing Saddam Hussein with hundreds of millions of dollars while preparing to go to war with him at the same time.

Love it or leave I say...and if you find a firm you can trust in this country and give out the right feelings..it wil be returned

(sermon ends here)

I still have conversations with Farangs who have lived here for years , are very wealthyHow is KSnP these days? And how is your boyfriend, Bubbles (that is your theme song, isn't it - "I'm forever blowing Bubbles")?

To be clear, I did not and would never buy under a company structure, so it is not MY problem, but I do have a lot of sympathy for the people who do have that problem.

Regarding the real estate company under discussion, again, I know what I experienced, and I think there are some people other than real estate shysters who will appreciate the value in my truth telling.

Again, it was NOT one bad apple salesmen, this was coming from VERY high levels of that company.

BTW, I am also not the one who mention the company name, and I question whether that should be left in this discussion; maybe it should be edited out?

Fair enough, Let me tell you, of course, I don't have the solution to this current big mess. I am semi-optimistic there will be some kind of resolution ... eventually, but I still think it is likely alot of current owners are going to get burned.

One thing I find very curious, you keep repeating and acting like I was talking about ONE AGENT. Why is that?????

I never said that, you said that. I said repeatedly the direction to the agents was coming from the highest levels of the company I am talking about (which I still think the name should be deleted). Stop acting like you didn't hear what I said, OK?

Goodness knows in how many threads recently Thaiquila has shown that he doesn't understand Thailand or the Thais and isn't interested in learning from those who do

Goodness knows in how many threads recently Thaiquila has shown that he doesn't understand Thailand or the Thais and isn't interested in learning from those who do
Up to you, Sir.

Unfortunately what is law one day is not the next. Even if there is a favorable outcome to ownership there is no guarantee that the problem will not reappear again and again. Rental or a lifetime lease is a much safer option.

What a whitewash. Very boring indeed for the people who fear they might be losing many millions of baht. I am sorry you don't understand my intention here. I have no vendetta. In fact, I really, really want the NAME of the company being talked about DELETED from this board. Just be careful and don't assume the rule of law means anything in Thailand.

BTW: The report I gave about what did happen in the past is NOT disinformation. If it sounds negative to you, so be it, sometimes the truth happens to sound negative. :diabloanifire:

[Smiles]

" .. We crave here for Information not negative disinformation..........Thaiquila you just dont understand do you, no one is interested in your vendetta with an agent higher agent or even the head of the mafia ...."
. . . but a LMTU/Thaiquila vendetta against a Pattaya (farang) restaurant owner ( i.e.: Niddy's ) is perfectly OK, of course.

" .. We crave here for Information not negative disinformation..........Thaiquila you just dont understand do you, no one is interested in your vendetta with an agent higher agent or even the head of the mafia ...."
. . . but a LMTU/Thaiquila vendetta against a Pattaya (farang) restaurant owner ( i.e.: Niddy's ) is perfectly OK, of course.
I am over that. The more clever of you realize I have done everything in my power to PROMOTE Niddy's Nook, through reverse psychology. But so many were too dense to catch that, so now I will just say, go there, try it yourselves, and if you love it, enjoy!

[Impulse]

Bickering aside can anyone give an opinion as to what I can do in my present situation.The Thai military bank is sending 23,000 baht a month to view taley after putting down 200,000 baht initial downpayment from my thia account.When i get there in August that will be near 10 thousand dollars.Im sure vt will want me to finish paying and will offer no guarantees the unit will be in my name after going to the land office.Im sure I wont be in the good 49% since i wont be there when its completed,Im ready to walk away loseing the 10k if need be since Im not willing to put it in a Thais name(after atempting to retreive my money from vt).Or maybe I could convince a realtor to take over my contract,the balance due will be about 42 thousand.Its not the end of the world for me to lose ten thousand,it just bothers me that I could have had so much fun giving it to the boys instead of view taley. :thin:

Hi there, Rocket

I am very sorry to hear about your predicament.
Yes, it does sound like you have two options, walk away and take the loss, or keep paying into an uncertain situation, that being, how are you going to be sure of any kind of legal ownership at closing time.

If I were you, I would be trying to get an answer from View Talay about whether they have anything up their sleeves on how to deal with getting ownership for the 51 percent. I have wondered if a company like View Talay could create lease agreements. Still, I don't know the total cost of your unit, but even with an alternative to a company setup, it certaintly isn't as good as direct ownership, so you still might want to bail.

View Talay in my experience with them have at least been HONEST about what they can and cannot offer; it would be interesting to know if they are offering a response to this new situation, if you find out, be sure to let us know.

Best of luck, and yes 10K would cover alot of go go tabs ... Ouch!

but not for trying..but you try to get one of Michael Jackson's favorites away from him..not a hope in hell.

I don't now how (Dame) Sanitree Na Parkin's fortunes are these days..I think I may have committed a terrible faux pas at one of her grand dinner parties got carred away and thought I was a guest for a minute rather than cockail waitress. She sent me into Coventry.

All my talk of rich friends is picked up when I'm scrubbing their floors and puting out the garbage so you can be sure it's accurate. They don't think I can understand them.

None of this will end in tears..funny people they may be but Thailand will not bite the chubby tummies that feed them.



[/quote]

Sounds hilarious, but rather cryptic. That and four dollars will be you a latte!

[Impulse]

thanx Thai for your response,the condo cost 2 million baht,is 48 square meters and is on the 21st floor out of 22.Its a shell except for the bathroom which they did.The fact that its a shell(and the boreing bath)which means additional work and expense makes the idea of walking even more appealing.Ill certainly know more after speaking to them and lawyers about the situation,the only thing I can do until then is possibly freezing my thai military account until I get there.Your right about vt,they do seem honest,I dealt with the vt residence and found them to be coniving and pushy.

You might want to contact your embassy and see if they can recommend a good attorney that deals in real estate law. Maybe you could get view taley to agree to a delay in your contract until the laws are made clear. I am sure they (view taley) are in as much turmoil as we are and would like to act in the best interest of their customers as future sales may depend on how they handle the current problems.

You might want to contact your embassy and see if they can recommend a good attorney that deals in real estate law. Maybe you could get view taley to agree to a delay in your contract until the laws are made clear. I am sure they (view taley) are in as much turmoil as we are and would like to act in the best interest of their customers as future sales may depend on how they handle the current problems.
You got that one right!
Although I suppose they could go with a two tiered market system, 49 percent sold full to foreigners, 51 percent sold to Thais mostly as rentals. Or leave alot of units empty.

[jinks]

Proxy Posting : Rob does not have easy access to the board.


In response to Thaiquila.

I am the person you are talking about in the current thread and I recall our meeting vividly.

In relating part of our conversation on this forum you have been accurate, but there are other statements you have made that are not correct or misleading and have the potential to be very damaging now that our company has been identified. Because I know your identity your remarks may be determined as libellous. From our meeting I felt you were a responsible person and I would like to think you have misinterpreted certain things I said in the brief time we were together.

To clear this up I invite you and any person you nominate as a witness, to meet me at our office to discuss and resolve this matter. There may be other issues you wish to raise, discuss, clarify and have me comment on. No matter what the outcome of our meeting I would welcome you reporting back to this forum.

However, I want to refute now one statement that you made and state publicly and categorically that this company has never offered or given any financial incentives to any persons holding City Hall, Chonburi Province or Government department positions for any favours.

Secondly, I am as concerned as anyone about the apparent crack down on foreign controlled Thai companies established to purchase land/house properties in Pattaya. I can not understand why this type of company is still permitted to buy condominiums but not land/house property. There are indications that the recent ruling is under review and may be resolved sooner than later.

However, as the situation is at present, my advice to a potential foreign buyer wanting to purchase via a Thai Company is to wait or purchase by other options.

Thirdly, prior to the current crisis 12 Pattaya real estate agents meet with an independent and influential Thai person as chairman in an attempt to establish an official and recognised real estate body. One of the main reasons is to make all agents accountable (I am told there are now 163 businessтАЩs calling themselves real estate agents in Pattaya) and also to resolve disputes and address complaints from buyers, sellers and agents. A sub committee has now been formed and is making excellent progress towards goals that will benefit our real estate industry.

I would also like to point out that there are 15 developments existing, under construction or in the planning in Pattaya with the name View Talay. Our company is only associated with two, View Talay Villas residential estate and View Talay Residence condominiums 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. I know it is very confusing. For this reason our company decided 18 months ago not to use the name View Talay for future projects.

Finally, I would like to say I am a paid employee of the company and not a commission salesman. If Thaiquila accepts my invitation to meet I will give him the names of 15 customers whom he may contact and will vouch for my integrity. To be frank our biggest problem has been delays in completion. During boom periods all developers are faced with this frustration both for them and especially their clients.

Thaiquila, you know where to contact me and I am waiting for your call.

Rob
Pattaya Properties Co., Ltd

[paulg]

Thaiquila, you know where to contact me and I am waiting for your call.


Be interesting to see if Thaiquila goes missing, as he is all up front with his criticism of NN ,
maybe we will see his qualities (???) when challenged honestly.

I doubt it.

[jimnbkk]

I've met twice with Rob, and I, and my Thai friend have twice been given tours of properties managed by Rob's company. I want to say publicly that I was impressed both with the professionalism and integrity of everybody we met at that company. I would not hesitate to do business with them in the future.

The fact that I did not purchase a condo/villa has nothing to do with Rob's company, and everything to do with my own finances. I was always suspicious of the phony Thai company concept, but was willing to talk about a building purchase/land lease concept.

We must remember that Real Estate businesses are in business to sell, and if the Thai authorities were willing to accept these single-purpose-constructed "Companies", then of course they were going to use them.

Proxy Posting : Rob does not have easy access to the board.


In response to Thaiquila.

I am the person you are talking about in the current thread and I recall our meeting vividly.

In relating part of our conversation on this forum you have been accurate, but there are other statements you have made that are not correct or misleading and have the potential to be very damaging now that our company has been identified. Because I know your identity your remarks may be determined as libellous. From our meeting I felt you were a responsible person and I would like to think you have misinterpreted certain things I said in the brief time we were together.

To clear this up I invite you and any person you nominate as a witness, to meet me at our office to discuss and resolve this matter. There may be other issues you wish to raise, discuss, clarify and have me comment on. No matter what the outcome of our meeting I would welcome you reporting back to this forum.

However, I want to refute now one statement that you made and state publicly and categorically that this company has never offered or given any financial incentives to any persons holding City Hall, Chonburi Province or Government department positions for any favours.

Secondly, I am as concerned as anyone about the apparent crack down on foreign controlled Thai companies established to purchase land/house properties in Pattaya. I can not understand why this type of company is still permitted to buy condominiums but not land/house property. There are indications that the recent ruling is under review and may be resolved sooner than later.

However, as the situation is at present, my advice to a potential foreign buyer wanting to purchase via a Thai Company is to wait or purchase by other options.

Thirdly, prior to the current crisis 12 Pattaya real estate agents meet with an independent and influential Thai person as chairman in an attempt to establish an official and recognised real estate body. One of the main reasons is to make all agents accountable (I am told there are now 163 businessтАЩs calling themselves real estate agents in Pattaya) and also to resolve disputes and address complaints from buyers, sellers and agents. A sub committee has now been formed and is making excellent progress towards goals that will benefit our real estate industry.

I would also like to point out that there are 15 developments existing, under construction or in the planning in Pattaya with the name View Talay. Our company is only associated with two, View Talay Villas residential estate and View Talay Residence condominiums 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. I know it is very confusing. For this reason our company decided 18 months ago not to use the name View Talay for future projects.

Finally, I would like to say I am a paid employee of the company and not a commission salesman. If Thaiquila accepts my invitation to meet I will give him the names of 15 customers whom he may contact and will vouch for my integrity. To be frank our biggest problem has been delays in completion. During boom periods all developers are faced with this frustration both for them and especially their clients.

Thaiquila, you know where to contact me and I am waiting for your call.

Rob
Pattaya Properties Co., Ltd


Well you will be waiting a long time, because I never had any intention of personalizing this issue to you or your firm.
I never mentioned your firms name or your name, so I would really appreciate it if you back off from making legal threats.


My general point was that many real estate firms, in trying to hard sell customers, gave the impression that these company deals were safer than they really were. It is quite clear now they were never legal to begin with, yes? Some real estate companies made this clearer than others and divulged the truth, but justifiably said the law is not being enforced, transferring the responsibility of the risk to the customer by total honesty. I cannot know the usual or customary policy of your company about this issue from a very limited experience, OK?

I apologize if generalized comments I made got personalized to your firm (again, I never mentioned your firm or name).
I acknowledge you never explicity stated your company paid off Thai officials, OK? I did get certain other not so flattering impressions from our conversation, but I acknowledge they were my personal impressions, and in no way any reflection of absolute truth. This is a talking board, people are free here to give their personal impressions of businesses they deal with in Thailand. I decided not to do business with your firm; others can make their own choices based on their own personal impressions.

In summary, no interest in talking to you any further. What purpose would that serve anyway, except to put more fuel into this drama? I am not in the market for real estate, so the purpose would be for you to tell me how great your company is so I can post that. I am just one person's opinion, if you want to say how great your company is, get on this board and tell us about it, I see you have your fans already here, so again, what would be the point of it?

Best wishes to everyone in resolving the current real estate ownership snafu in Thailand.
Ciao