Funerals and Total Disrespect

[Neal]

OK maybe I was just brought up in a family with some morals, some values. I was taught that a deal was a deal and was sealed with a handshake and both parties and not just one side honored the deal and a contract, IOU, or other things were not necessary. You did what you said you were going to do and when it was completed, you got paid.

I was also taught that a funeral was the last place a person came to be and those in attendance were to dress with respect. OK now I know we are in a hot climate and some times have changed, blah de blah de blah. That people who knew the person showed an effort to attend and respect them, no? Is this not the deal anymore or has the deal changed? Come on, someone tell me as I really need to know.

I went to a funeral today. Sure, I had dialysis today and urged the nurses to cut the time which is not good for my health. Why? I knew the man. Well I am not going to get too overly teary eyed because I we were not close freinds but the fact remains that I knew the man for several years and I felt it was my obligation to see that I appeared during his last moments as I hope people do for me. It is to try an commemerate and honor one's life.

So there I am, sick as all hell, dizzy and just do not want to go, but I do, I have to. B brings my wheelchair as I don't wish to try and walk and fall in the hot sun to and from the ceremony. There's a good turn-out, maybe 50 or so, nothing to sneeze about. I sit in back and scan the people in attendence like so many of us do.
The man sat for so many years in a particular beach section that I chose to move from, was there anyone there from that section to honor the man? I did not see anyone. OK, yes, the man had moved away about 2 years ago but it still would have been the right thing to do in my opinion. I saw another man from my old section sitting there with his baseball cap on....I was always taught that there were several occassions when a hat was disrespectful. Guess I am wrong or no one had told him. About a dozen people were shorts, well I guess that might be ok as it is outside and hot but I sure did not. Several people donned t shirts that you would see at the beach but again I would have thought that a dress shirt would be the least one could do. One person arrived a few minutes late wering what appeared to be a bathing suit and sleeveless muscle shirt. Well into his 50's no one taught him that muscle shirts were for the younger more able bodied person but surey not a funeral!

Well yes, most were dressed the way I was, long pants, dress shirt and shoes or sneakers and trust me, I felt out of place not being in a black suit but I don't have one. I always thought I would go first and why paay out all that money.

So please, you tell me. Am I an old fogie with old values? Is this what is now acceptable at a funerals? Sure, the majority were dressed with respect and I am sure if he was looking down on us he would have appreciated that we took a few minutes out of our day to don on some more formal atire than what we wear to the beach.

[adman5000]

Neal- This is my personal viewpoint:
While the dress you describe I agree is the most appropriate, I think dress is trumped by the act of showing up. I think the act of attending is the most important thing.
When thinking of people living in Pattaya, I think the dress situation is more complex. I can think of many unknowns- Do the folks have dress clothes? Did the departed person express a certain wish or comment on dress? Did the folks in the other beach chairs even know he died? Is their mind keen enough to remember a time and place for a funeral if someone did not remind them? Are they readers of this board?
I once had an occasion that someone close died while I was visiting my hometown on vacation. With no dress clothes, I made an early appearance at the viewing and explained to the family that I was in town, heard it had happened, and wanted to stop by and pay my condolences. Their reaction was an appreciation of seeing me and what I said, not a bit of judgement on how I was dressed.

I am a person who does not judge people by their dress and I do not dress up often myself. I am a nonconformist is that area. I would imagine a lot of the people you refer to are also nonconformists of one type or another. So I would certainly not be surprised that they did not dress up. I also would not hold it against them if they made the effort to attend.
Sorry, but I would not devote any emotional energy to the topic. Take care of yourself and mai pen rai, so we do not have to go to your funeral next.

[Oliver]

Those of us who choose to visit Thailand, and even more so to live there, should respect the values of our hosts.
One of these concerns dress; what is appropriate and what is inappropriate. A basic rule is beach wear is for the beach. I find falangs wandering around Central or Royal Garden bare to the waist, or wearing speedos to be impolite to Thais.

I recall my boyfriend, who abjures criticism of other people, turning his nose up (very cutely, as it happened) at a Thai girl who was walking along Second Road in very brief shorts. The fact that she was with a falang didn't bother him.
"It not Thai," he said.

What's true of a shopping centre is even more true of a ceremony of any sort. I assume that this makes me as much of a fogey as Neal.

Fortunately there are still people who do respect the time honoured conventions of acceptable behavior, but unfortunately they are mostly of retirement age and are fast dying out.

[Neal]

Adman, I hear a little about what you are saying but I am not sure you understood me. This not having something proper to wear or a being a bit casual does not allow you to sit in a shaded area at a cremation ceremony with your baseball cap on. I cannot and do not believe a person goes on vacation with only sleveless shirts or bathing suits. Bathing suits are not the norm a funerals nor are sleveless muscle shirts. No way no how! For you to take one's side and say that common t shirts that are bought at roadside stands is ok is up to you but I cannot imagine that one does not have a caual shirt with a collar is insane. Even if one were to have gone on holiday and did not know someone was going to die, there is a collared shirt whether it be casual dress in case of a semi dress up dinner or even a collared polo shirt.

Someone just PMed me and I won't reveal who but I agree 100%. Some of us have retired here and over time have left our morals and values at home thinking that the way some of us treat each other, treat our Thai hosts is ok. We would have never dressed or acted like this at home and it is crazy that some of us think it is ok to do it now. I am sorry Adman we agree on many things but I don't agree with your mei pen rai here. You have fallen in with the older more complacent people who think that any behaviour is acceptable behaviour.

[francois]

I agree with you Neal that a certain modicum of respect in attire is the norm for funerals.
I have attended a funeral at Wat Chai where some farang wore shorts and T-shirts and even filthy clothes. All the Thais in attendance wore business attire.

On the other hand I would rather be mourned by a beggar than ignored by a friend.

Funerals are for the living to honor the dead and gather together to remember although I usually think Neal is an old fogey in this case I agree that "clothes maketh the man" but I also think thats the sort of behavior I expect from the sort of people who live or holiday in Pattaya.

[adman5000]

Neal- I applaud you for your concern about dressing proper at a funeral. For me personally, I place more weight on other aspects of people's character than how they dress. I simply do not have the belief that just because someone dresses up, that that mere fact somehow denotes that that they have more respect or other similar admirable traits than someone who doesn't. I did not hear you say most showed up shirtless in speedos, so I do not find another's comments referring to such dress the issue. I heard one out of 50 came late and "appeared" to be dressed in beachwear. I believe there are people who do not bring or have a collared shirt as you reference. When I travel to Thailand, I do not bring, nor do I wear a collared shirt. I detest them. But to your point, if I lived there and a friend died, and I went to the funeral, I would likely buy one. But if someone chooses not to, or doesn't wear black, I don't think less of them IF they take the time to attend someone's funeral and otherwise act in a respectful way meaning they are otherwise clean and well-mannered.

I find evidence of respect in deeper ways than dress.(We are talking Pattaya right?) I know Thai customs place a great deal of importance on "appearance". In my opinion, the Thai people are more easily influenced by appearance than substance, as are many people. Did Buddha regard well dressed people above lesser well dressed people if all else was the same?

Does it hurt to remind others to try to dress appropriately? No. Is is better to dress up at a funeral, than to dress down, yes.
Should we think less of someone because they left their hat on, dressed in shorts, or one person showed up in what "appeared" to be beachwear? Up to you, but I wouldn't get my panties in a knot over it. It is a personal viewpoint. I like the ending comment by Francois best.

[Neal]

OK up to you and I will say no more but if I get to attend another funeral, don't expect me to show up in a bathing suit or not to take my hat off and please don't sit next to me! While I would appreciate people showing up at my funeral, can I say now that beachwear and hats not optional?

[adman5000]

Does that mean they are required?

Can you pre-approve my attire per the attached pic? If you really want, I will wear black socks. I have also removed my hat. :alc:

[Neal]

NO! It means if you can't be bothered putting on a pair of at least casual shorts and shirt so that my ghost doesn't have to look at your hairy armpits, and you can't be bothered taking off your baseball cap then go to the beach and send flowers instead. :occasion9:


Well I just realized that I made an error. My will states that after the cremation I want my ashes brought to the beach section where I sit, have a bar b que and a sunset send off. So... if you can't help but wear beach wear, skip the beginning cremation and meet me at the beach for a party send off! :snorting: :snorting:


ADMAN: Please make sure I am cremated with a pair of sunglasses so I can't see you!

[gaymandenmark]

It is all about showing respect, people don't have to dress like a undertaker at a funeral.
It is possible to show some kind of respect, even if you don't have money to bye new clothes.
I suppose most people have a pair of clean jeans? and dont have to show up like they are on the beach?

[Neal]

Exactly! I don't have a black suit and don't want one. I dressed in a pair of blue jeans and a casual dress blue and white shirt. I'm sorry but I was horrified when a man walked past me and sat down and had a bathing suit on and a tank top undershirt! Its called respect. I was also horrified when a man there in his baseball cap would not even remove it when the coffin was there and it went into the chamber. R E S P E C T! and I think that some of us have been in Pattaya too long and think that everything and anything we do is acceptable.

I think we can open a new thread on things falang do here in Thailand that are not acceptable.

[corky]

A few years ago I attended the funeral of a friend in Pattaya. Most were wearing a shirt with collar and a dark pair of trousers but I must say that some of the attendees were dressed to the point of disrespect.

It was noticeable that most of the Thais and bar boys attending wore their best clothes even though these may have been 'unsuitable' from a western perspective.

There were of course a number of bar owners there and some were properly and respectfully dressed - others arrived looking hung-over and in shorts and T shirts. I considered this to be disrespectful to my friend and so I have never visited their bars again.

[Neal]

Oh Ed such a drama queen. First as far as the reason for my attendence was not to be a fashion police but to pay my respects otherwise I would not have come down from being as ill as I was from dialysis just an hour earlier. Surely it wasn't to "play" fashion police.

Second, I am not referring to "people" that sat in his old section on the beach but the "owners" of the section.

And finally dearest, when we talk about hats, at least from US which everyone likes to pick on from time to time, we have certain "rules" when it comes to wearing a hat it surely ain't at a funeral. And there were not "hats" it was one person who was so ignorant as not take off his hat, I am sure you and I know who that was now don't we.

I have never shown myself as superior. A person having money or not having money is no consequence to me as you already know. Hmmm! Didn't think I knew who you were and your agenda? :dontknow:

I guess we're trying to decide if being in Thailand removes the need to follow the traditions that exist in our home countries. If тАЬanything goesтАЭ (regardless of the fact that most Thais dress appropriately for a funeral), then of course wear what you want to say farewell to the deceased.

But if some traditions are worth respecting, then in Thailand, as in your home country, you would not come to a funeral wearing shorts/bathing suit/muscle shirt, etc., and you would remove your hat or cap during the service. IsnтАЩt it that simple?

But if your Jewish Bob you would keep your hat on??? Or are you saying we should follow the practices of a particular religion from home?

I think you know exactly what I'm saying, and I don't think you'd show up at a funeral in Brisbane, no matter what the temperature, wearing shorts and tee shirt, so why would that be acceptable elsewhere?

[Neal]

And why are you segregating Jewish People? Wearing a baseball cap at a funeral is disrespectful in Brisbane especially when the coffin is presnt and enters a crematorium.

And why are you segregating Jewish People? Wearing a baseball cap at a funeral is disrespectful in Brisbane especially when the coffin is presnt and enters a crematorium.i didnt realise your an expect on Judaism Neal as you can see from Wikipedia Some Jewish men wear headgear at all times as do Sikhs now I come to think of it why are you discriminating about caps??? "Some headgear is worn for religious practice. Observant Jewish men wear Kippahs, small cloth skull-caps, because they believe the head should be covered in the presence of God. Some Jewish men wear yarmulkes at all times, others in the synagogue." In fact conservative Christian women cover their heads at all times in a religious gathering including a crematorium and there is no prohibition against caps I think your just clutching at straws.

[Neal]

I do believe it sounds like yo are clutching straws an only to argue a ridiculous point of yours. we are not talking about a Jewish man, a Yamaka, a hat worn by an orthodox Jew or a muslim woman. A baseball cap is not a religeous item unless you want to start arguing fths is the point for this person. I think we all know that you are not this person and therefore have no standing in arguing these points for him. If it were you and you wanted to use this ridiculous philosiphy for yourself then I would have to consider your arguement but you are not.

I guess the bottom line like Bob pointed out is that you live in Australia, no? I put these questions to youand please do not answer for someone else. If attending a freind's funeral would you:

1. Wear shorts?
2. Wear a tank top undershirt so your armpits are out there?
3. Wear a bathing suit
4. Not remove your hat in front of your freind's coffin?

I have to agree with Neal - people turning up at funerals ought (in my opinion anyway) to make an effort to look smart i.e. long trousers, proper shirt and proper shoes.

Frankly, I don't buy any suggestion that people do not have these items.

Turning up wearing shorts, vest, and sandals, is insulting - as is wearing a cap in front of the coffin (unless it's religious headgear - in which case I don't know the correct protocols)

[kittyboy]

I have to respectfully disagree with some of the posts.

Attending the funeral is the show of respect. The attire worn is irrelevant. - IMHO -


I would be one of those guys showing up to a funeral in a Hawaiian shirt, and shorts.

It seems this old joke rings true:

Q: What do you call a Farang dressed smartly?

:occasion9:

A: The defendant.

How dense you are Neal. Its a very simple point. You are insisting that headgear gets removed at a funeral. That is not universally true and is a custom of a religious minority - Christians. You are then confusing that with an apparent dislike of that very American fashion the baseball cap. Personally I dont ever wear a baseball cap and never go to funerals so on both counts the argument is totally not relevant.

[Neal]

So now someone is "dense" because from the trash you post on a forum they can't see that you don't wear a baseball cap or go to funerals? As usual, very little of substance comes from you. :hello2:

Jeez mate have you won the Noble Prize for Completely Missing The Point?

Jeez mate yourself. The point, which is only being missed by one poster, is that farangs are traditionally expected to remove baseball caps or similar items when attending a funeral. No one has suggested that Jews, Moslems, Hindus, et al., are expected to remove head coverings dictated by their religion.

Ah ok now I get it "farang" means "Christian" and so Jews are not farangs phenomenal or do I mean phenominal?

[Neal]

No you just mean that you will argue any point no matter how out of the ballpark it is. You never answered my question although I said baseball cap, you did not reply if you were wearing any type of hat, YOU and not a Jewish person or your next door neighbor and don't just respnd that you don't wear hats, if you owned a freakin hat and wore it to a funeral house or church, would you feel compelled t ake it off?

Shit the things that you have to break down for some people just to answer the freaking question!

No you just mean that you will argue any point no matter how out of the ballpark it is. You never answered my question although I said baseball cap, you did not reply if you were wearing any type of hat, YOU and not a Jewish person or your next door neighbor and don't just respnd that you don't wear hats, if you owned a freakin hat and wore it to a funeral house or church, would you feel compelled t ake it off?

Shit the things that you have to break down for some people just to answer the freaking question!sorry mate what was the question again?

What wre debating is your assertion that farangs should always remove hats at funerals or in church or whatever. I am saying thats just not true because Jews do not do that but now I find out from Bob that in fact farangs should remove their hats but Jews should not so obviously Jews are not farangs in fact thats the only logical conclusion to draw from what Bob wrote.

How I would behave is utterly irrelevant to the truth or otherwise of your original idea.

[Neal]

Well that just goes to show you how wrong you are. Many Jewish people wear yamaka's and that is the small skull cap but many do not. Also Orthodox Jewish people wear black hats with a certain black suit and hair cut.

But we were not talking about any of that were we? We were talking about you who just wants to argue for everyone else and can't even answer for hmself. As I said your posts rarely contain nothing of substance.

[a447]

Neal, don't waste your time with Mr Wikipedia. It's all too difficult for him to comprehend. You are simply hitting your head against the proverbial brick wall.

I am sure I am not the only one who would like to know exactly what a "Thai military cap" is.

I can find nothing on Google images - so if anybody can post a pic then we'll ALL know just how like or unlike a baseball cap this item is, and make an informed comment on its suitability for a funeral, or otherwise

:dontknow:

[Sooty]

I think we're now at a point for the definitive guide which I'll call

Neal's Style Guide for Farang Attending Funerals of Other Farang in Thailand
1 Farang who are Christians must never cover their heads
2 Farang who are Jews or followers of other faiths who usually cover their heads at funerals and other religious ceremonies must wear their traditional headgear. If they come to Thailand without that traditional headgear they can cover their heads with something else but it must never be a baseball cap
3 Farang who follow no religion must choose (1) or if they want to be totally bloody-minded they can choose (2) but under no circumstances can they wear a baseball cap

Does that sum it up? What a pity Dear Abby died this week or we could have asked her.

I would imagine that unless a military cap ( or any hat / cap etc) was being worn as an integral part of a dress uniform at a funeral then it would be considered respectful by most people for it to be removed for the period of internment or burning as a simple mark of respect to the deceased when attending at a funeral, however if that has to be explained to someone then I'm guessing that person probably wouldn't hold or be aware of such traditions or manners anyway and there would little point in trying to explain it to them.

* and yes before anyone nit picks religious exclusions apply 'of course" - this REALLY shouldn't even be a matter of debate I would have thought and I'm amazed some people are trying to make an issue out of an accepted long standing tradition for showing respect to the dead, people never fail to amaze me sometimes.

[Neal]

Nevermind the military hat or baseball hat NIrish as Mstered just wants to justify it as he was the [u]only/u] one at the funderal who ore this hat which from any distance was the shape of a baseball hat weter he got it in the military or where ever. We see all the time in the movies and elsewhere that they all take there hat off but since he was the one wearing the cap, he will argue this one into the ground. Say Mr R at home would you wear it into church? Would you wear it in front of a coffin at home? NO, as we both come from the same country as well as the deceased.

"however if that has to be explained to someone then I'm guessing that person probably wouldn't hold or be aware of such traditions or manners anyway and there would little point in trying to explain it to them."

See my above.........my advice, move on, if you have to explain it your wasting your breath.

A resident of Massachusetts all my life and in the military I have never in all my life heard of a military cap. I have seen funerals with firefighters, policemen jimminy just about every type of setting and I have yet to see a man come to a funeral in a bathing suit or not remove their hat, except as Brisbane said it being religous garb and then I don't know the proper attire.

[Beachlover]

It's nothing to do with age, Neal... If you go to a funeral you dress respectfully. If you can't wear a suit, at least wear a business shirt or smart casual shirt and pants.

Any decent person would have at least a smart casual shirt and pants with them, even on holidays. And if you don't, just buy them!

There's really no excuse... those people either have no decency, are too stupid or too much of a loser to get their act together.