The Three Musketeers are Back

[bruce_nyc]

I am back.

I feel so bad that it's been 100 years since I've made time for visiting SGT.

I've been in direct contact with Neal and a few others from here.... but I've been so so very busy making enough money to support my new family... :ink: ....that I haven't checked in here.

Anyway.... Just as it is with old friends.... once we're together again, it's like no time has passed.

And.... I'm back in Thailand now.

I am here with "T".... "D" is in Hong Kong on a business trip, but he will be joining up with us two on the 28th of January, but only for one week. Meanwhile, I will be here with "T" for 5.5 weeks... until February 14th. ( As someone pointed out, how sad to be leaving on Valentines Day... That date hadn't even occurred to me! )

In short, all is well with all of us. "T" is still working his office job. He never went back to work in the bar again. He's happy there... except for the fact that they work him to death... 9 hours a day, 6 days a week... and they pay him -- per hour -- about 1/3 of what we pay for a large coffee at Starbucks ( depending on the type of coffee ). That makes me sad. It's also curtailed my coffee-drinking. But mostly, it makes me very sad. He works too hard.

The good news is.... As you must all know by now, the US Supreme Court announced on November 30th that they WILL be hearing the DOMA cases this year. For those of you who don't know, that means.... The experts all predict that sometime between now and June 2013, the US Supreme Court WILL declare the so-called "Defense of Marriage Act" as unconstitutional.... meaning that an American man can marry a Thai man.... and he get his green card ( permanent residency, and ultimately his US Citizenship, if he so chooses. )

And we so choose. We all three want him to come live with us.

In other news, "D" announced to me a few weeks ago that he still wants us to have kids. I asked, How many? He said, Three. Since then, we've all discussed it together... and it is unanimous. We all three want three kids. Woah. Life is going to change.... But life is ever so short. And as they say, on your death bed.... You will always regret far more those things you did NOT do.... than those things you DID do.

So we are in Pattaya now. We found a very very affordable room ( with no advance booking at all! I don't know what I was thinking. I have been so busy I came here without a room booked, and I didn't even get a visa, even though I am staying 45 days! ). Having dinner with some friends tonight in Jomtien. I do want to make it to Boyztown and see all our friends a few evenings though.

Our plans are... totally flexible for "T" and I for now... We can travel or stay here... whatever. But when "D" arrives on the 28th, we will probably spend one week with the 3 of us together in Chiang Mai. None of us have ever been there before.

Hope you all are well. I have missed you. really.

If you're in Pattaya, hit me up!

If you have my direct phone or email address, that is best. If not, PM is second best.

Love you all!

[bruce_nyc]

It's sounding more and more official....

Supreme Court Sets Dates For DOMA, Prop 8 Hearings. The court is expected to rule on the two cases in June. http://www.ontopmag.com/article.aspx?id ... ategory=26 (http://www.ontopmag.com/article.aspx?id=14051&MediaType=1&Category=26)

Hey welcome back Bruce, it's been a while but as you say almost like you were never gone and you can just slip right back in ( figuratively speaking of course :-)

So, if I'm reading it correctly once that law is passed ( or shot down to be more precise I guess) so is your intent to marry your Thai BF then and if so ( and I'm just being nosey and asking point blank seeing as you've been so honest and open about posting your info so I assume you don't mind discussing it openly) but if I'm correct and you marry your thai BF so where does that leave BF number one then ? He just becomes a live in lover for you both perhaps ? And I know you may say that "well actually nothing changes and it's really a marriage of convenience just to get your Thai BF over to the States etc" but in reality WILL that be the case and will BF number one's nose not be put even slightly out of joint perhaps, if not I have to say I really admire everyones lack of jealousy in your relationship, I can understand the Thai guy not being too jealous as to be blunt why would he he's nothing to lose as yet but your previous BF, wow, I'm surprised that's not going to raise a few issues there now, especially as you're now talking about actually marrying your Thai BF - but again to be clear I'm absolutely not judging here, just asking the question, as if it's all working for you / them then that's GREAT as far as I'm concerned, as you say life's short and you shouldn't waste time worrying about "conforming" to what others think about how you should live and as long as all three of you are happy that's all that counts !

Nice to have you back.

[bruce_nyc]

Thanks, NIrish. Great to "see" you as well. :thumbleft:

Yes, exactly. Our intention is that one of us would marry our Thai bf. My American bf and I have been together for... going on two decades... so as far as we're concerned, we have been married forever.... and we certainly don't need permission nor a license from the government in order to be in our relationship. That's why we've never really cared that much, politically, about marriage equality. We don't want the government licensing relationships in the first place.

However, that all changes as soon as the government BLOCKS relationships through unfair immigration policies. As everyone knows, the USA (government) does not like poor people. Therefore, if one wants to come here from a very poor country -- even for a visit -- he must basically be able to prove that he is rich, and that he absolutely will not stay here (in the US).

So since the only way our Thai bf could come live together with us (which we all three want) would be through marriage.... Now suddenly, we're all for marriage equality.

We have all been talking about this constantly.... pretty much since the beginning. The other day I asked our Thai bf if he would rather marry me or my American bf. He said me. When I asked, Why me? He said, Because you asked me first. :-) That's basically how we view it.

I had already previously discussed this with my American bf before. We agree I should be the one to marry him.... for one reason only: Because he would rather that I went through all the paperwork and interviews hassles... instead of him. :-)

So..... Look for a July wedding... or sometime shortly thereafter... :-)

I think the way it will technically work is.... I would apply for a "Fiance Visa". He would then come to New York, and we would get married there. Then he would stay. Simple. Just like the way it works for straight people! Will miracles never cease....

Oh... I almost forgot to answer your question about jealousy.

We have very few rules in our relationship.... But among the rules we do have are:

Zero jealousy ever. We believe that jealousy is not of love. It is only of fear and insecurity. Jealousy is nothing more than a fearful cry for love. We consciously chose to ban jealousy from our feels. If we ever feel it, we erase that thought from our minds, and replace it with pure unconditional love. If we ever encounter jealousy in each other, we respond by pouring love on him. However, it is understood that we all agree to have no jealousy. We are very successful at this, I must say. My American bf and I have separate fun very often. Sometimes the other watches. Sometime the other is not even there. It's all good. As for our Thai bf, he seems to be on board with this philosophy too.... although his cultural tendency may be a monogamous twosome... He has claimed to be on board. As sort of a test.... We all three went to Prince in Bangkok last time together. We three has separate sex massages, which we talked about openly afterward. He didn't have sex, because he didn't want sex... only a massage. But my American bf and I talked about our sex experience, and the massage, openly. He says, "I bar boy. I know." ( Often people do what I call, "They fain jealousy." They're not really jealous. They understand the natural male need for a variety of sex partners. But they act jealous, only because they think they are "supposed to" act jealous. It's weird. It's not natural. It's a game. And we don't like it. We prefer being 100% honest.... and we celebrate great sex inside and outside of our relationship. We have no interest in living a dysfunctional dishonest monogamous life. )

Love. We focus on pure unconditional non-judgmental love in everything we do, everything we say, every thought we think. Maybe easier said than done. It takes practice. But it is so well worth the effort.

Honesty Always and in everything. There is never a need to lie. We all deserve the respect of the truth. But... hand in hand with this rule is...

If he lies to you, it's YOUR fault. If he lies to you, it's your job to do some major self-reflection... asking yourself, "What have I done that would make him think that I would react negatively to the truth?" Even an unhappy look on your face.... when he tells you he did something.... can be reason enough for someone to just lie to you about it next time. Or not tell you at all. Thus, our twin rules: Honesty Always ~and~ If he lies to you, it's YOUR fault.

So far, so good. We all love each other very much.

No relationship is without bumps and misunderstands. We have those too. But we work through them in a spirit of love.

"If he lies to you, it's YOUR fault."

Wow, I'm not surpised your Thai BF loves you both with THAT philosophy in place :-) I've had a few Thai guys who would have liked me to have thought that way over the years but somehow I just couldn't get get my head around the fact that if he stole money from my wallet and then said he didn't that that was my fault ( as I would have given it to him is asked) or if he'd been away shagging another farang ( even when I said that was totally ok) and then lied about it that then that lie was also my fault as I was always taught personal responsibility comes first in such matters. I do grasp the concept but it appears I'm just not perhaps as "understanding" as you (both) - and again I not honestly not being critucal or judgemental of how you're living in any way here, as as I said before if it's working for you all then GREAT and I'm very happy for you and via la difference and all that ! .

I have to be honest though and admit that when I read your comment re the massage and all discussing it later your view on it seemed to be "so we were talked and were open and ok about that" but I read your Thai BF's response more as I "hey I (was) a bar boy, do you really think I don't know what goes on in there, you really don't need to bother telling me as a) I KNOW and b) I really couldn't care less anyway as hell it's what I (used) to do for a living so it's no big deal to me so why would I be "jealous" when I know it's just "work".

I do think it's great though that you are prepared to to put all the work in for your Thai BF just to secure him a better life in his future either with or without you both, he's a lucky guy to have found you (both) and I'm sure you would say the very same about him of course !

One (genuine) question if I may (as I dont know the answer to it) - so, what happens once you get married, does he then automatically get his residents visa / green card etc and can he then move to the States immediately ?? I ask this as I "think" even once married here in the UK there currently is no automatic right for your spouse to reside with you and a period of time may have to pass before you can apply for that pleasure ( but I may be wrong about that though?) - and likewise what would happen if ( and I hope it doesn't happen of course ) that one of you decides to move on ( as as it WAS a marriage of convenience in the first place I'm assuming that's something that has been talked about) so if you all decide to part / divorce ( amicably I assume) in the future, does his green card etc still apply or is that then revoked ? - I trrust not as that would be a VERY harsh thing, even for the US Government to try ?

Sorry if the above all sounds very nosey, it's not meant to :-) but as your "arrangement" IS quite unique it's really interesting just to read how the mechanics of it all might pan out administration wise for you all etc - totally aside from the "love" part of things of course which is taken as read on all parts of course! - and again I wish you all nothing but the best of luck ploughing your own furrow in that regard !

[bruce_nyc]

Thanks, NIrish, for your kind comments.

I'll try to answer your questions the best I can...

I know.... When I say, "If he lies to you, it's YOUR fault." ....I know that sounds a bit extreme. Maybe I do exaggerate a little bit.... But I think you understand the point.

In your examples... Stealing would be a big problem.... entirely separate from lying about it.

Remember, LOVE is number one. HONESTY is number two. Zero jealousy might be number three. Our relationship is 100% Open. And out of love and respect, we all play safely, of course. We never take chances, even among us three.

If there is dishonesty, it's a big problem anyway... But stealing is just ridiculously unnecessary. We're all three included in all financial decisions, so.... It would effectively be like stealing money from your left pocket and putting it into your right pocket. Thank God, I think we're all beyond that type of juvenile behavior. Of course, stealing would not be ok. Lying about anything ( other than maybe surprise party plans ) is not acceptable at all. Trust is essential to our relationship. ( Note that, obviously, I'm not talking about the bastardized meaning of the word "trust" which is used to promote monogamy... I'm talking about REAL trust. REAL betrayal is hurtful. We love each other and we don't hurt each other and we are honest with each other always. )

So honesty is a requirement. However, my point was... If he is lying about something... It's also a big red flag... to, at the very least, ask ourselves, "Is he lying about something out of fear that we will judge him negatively for the truth?" If it's something like stealing -- REAL stealing -- that is just not ok under any circumstances. If that were to ever happen, that would be a deal-breaker. We could never share a hotel room for an hour, much less our entire lives.

If, on the other hand, he's lying about something related to having, or wanting to have, sex or romance with someone else... Well, that's entirely different. Because we have a 100% open relationship... If he is shy about telling us, or he lies about something like this... then it's time to evaluate ourselves, and our reactions to such topics. Does he sense that we are we reacting negatively in some way? If so, we are not living up to our own standards.... So we are at least equally to blame for him feeling the need to lie about it...

As in one of your examples: If we tell him to play around with other guys if he wants to... and he secretly does... and lies to us about it.... Well, then, we would have to blame ourselves.... because we have not yet convinced him that he DOES NOT NEED TO lie to us about such things.

The idea is: After enough time, he will learn that if he were to say, "That guy is hot and he wants me." We would say something like, "Great! Enjoy him alone, or share him with one of us, or both of us... Up to you! Have fun!" ( Of course, "Be safe!" would always be in there too... to the point of it going without saying. )

By the way, our relationship is not just open in the sense of sexually. It is open in the sense of romantic relationships too. We are free to "date" other guys whenever we want to. One of us might begin dating someone else and playing with him separately, which is fine. Or one of us might begin dating someone else and bring him home to play with one, or both, of us too ( as long as we are into that guy too, of course... no one is ever forced to participate, obviously ). I've been playing a little bit with a gorgeous Russian 23-year-old... who is only into me. And I've also been playing around a little with a hot hot 21-year-old from Central America, who just arrived in the US... After the first time with me alone, now he loves playing with both my American bf and I together. It's all good. And it doesn't change the love ( or the sex ) the three of us have for/with each other at all.

Of course, for now, we have a long distance relationship with our Thai bf. If, during those long stretches that we are not in Thailand, he were to decide to hook up with another guy/guys, we would certainly have no problem with that. However, he always seems very certain that he wants no one else other than us two. We don't encourage him to play around with others ( in fact, he gets really annoyed when we do mention it )... But we certainly NEVER discourage him from doing so either. He understands very clearly that he has total freedom to do whatever he wants.... and we love him the same NO MATTER WHAT.

A few of my friends have asked, "What if you marry him, he gets his green card, moves in with you... and then later runs off with some other guy...?" And we respond, "That's fine. As long as he is truly happy, we are truly happy." ( In our opinion, that's the definition of real love. ) If he doesn't want to stay with us, then we want him to do what makes him happy. That goes from Day One to Year 75.... of our time together. This philosophy has served my American bf and I very well... and we have been together for nearly two decades. So far, we're both still very happy.

Cheating is impossible..... when there are no rules to "cheat" on... Or said another way, "We encourage cheating at every pleasant and desirable opportunity." :thumbleft:

As for our Thai bf being lucky... Maybe so. We think we are the lucky ones though. Did I mention that he's 26, hot as hell, in love with us both, and wiser than both of us combined....? :ink:

Oh... The way immigration normally works through marriage is...

The US citizen applies for a Fiance Visa in order for the foreign national to come to the US to get married. This step is optional and only needed if the person is not already in the US as a tourist or student or some such. By the way, once a Fiance Visa is applied for and granted, that person MUST then marry the US citizen within 30 days of arrival... or they could be permanently banned from visiting the US. ( or so I heard )

Once both people are in the US, they would need to go to a state were gay marriage is legal. Fortunately, it is already legal in our state (New York).

They get married legally.

Then, they file an application with the INS for a "change of status" based on marriage.

Then, after about 2-3 months, the INS will contact us for a in-person interview of both people (the now married couple). Upon completing that interview, the foreign national is immediately given a CONTINGENT green card (aka a CONTINGENT Permanent Residency card). He can then stay in the US legally.... from that moment on.

After about two years of remaining married, the couple must apply for another -- the second -- interview. The wait for that is about 2-3 months too. After that second and final interview ( which is much more extensive, I've been told )... He will have the CONTINGENT status removed.... Meaning he will now get in the mail a Permanent Resident card.... that is no longer contingent. In other words, it really is permanent.

Optionally, after a couple more years, he can apply to become a citizen of the US... ( I think maybe it's after 1 more year if they remain married... or after 3 more years if they subsequently get divorced... or something like that. )

While he has his CONTINGENT green card (permanent residency), it can be revoked at any time.

After he gets his permanent green card (permanent permanent residency, if you will), it cannot be revoked.

And of course, once he is a citizen, that cannot be revoked either.

The main difference between a Permanent Resident and a Citizen is... a PR cannot vote.

Thanks again, NIrish.

( I can hear Neal complaining already about the length of my posts... ha ha )

[Khor tose]

After he gets his permanent green card (permanent permanent residency, if you will), it cannot be revoked.

Hello Bruce, i too am waiting on the DOMA decision to take my BF to the states to get married. He already has a ten year multiple entry visa, but we need a green card for him to stay permanently. I have studied the laws and do have to correct one thing you said. A permanent green card can be revoked, often for domestic violence or CIMT.

I will give you a citation, but here is the pertinent part. http://www.shawnhulaw.com/blog/why-gree ... -deported/ (http://www.shawnhulaw.com/blog/why-green-card-holders-may-get-deported/)


By far, one of the most uncertain situations in immigration occurs when a green card holder commits a crime. LPRs are not deported for all crimes, but only crimes involving moral turpitude (CIMT). CIMTs can be confusing because it involves state crimes, but it is the federal government which reviews the stateтАЩs statutes in determining what is a CIMT. In other words, a person commits a state crime but the federal government interprets the state law in making its own federal decision.

As a result, what may be a CIMT in one state may not be a CIMT in another state, even though the names of the crimes are similar. In determining what is a CIMT, courts generally look to whether the state statute contained elements of fraud, dishonesty, an intent to do harm and other behavior with тАЬreadiness to do evil.тАЭ Committing a CIMT can result in arrest and deportation. It is important to speak with an immigration attorney about CIMT, since criminal defense attorneys may not take your immigration status into account when making deals with the prosecution.

Thanks for the detailed and honest reply Bruce, actually I admire your openness and actually share your views on almost everything you said from trust to sharing to not living the fake life str8 people "expect" etc etc, it's a hot topic in gay circles at the minute as you know perhaps as to should gay people be aspiring to "normality" i.e. the whole husband and 2.2 children thing and monogamy or living more as (some) gay men have tended to live up to now i.e.totally open and non monogamous relationships, I think like everything in life there is no one answer and everyone will chose their own path and it's one I'm always a bit torn about personally as the second "settled" option "sounds" lovely but I would have have to promise my partner I'd never go to Thailand again EVER lol. So like you i have found that being open and honest is by FAR the way to go and I embrace a lot of what you think but find that some others of course don't and it gets tiresome having to justify your / my thinking over and over again to people who are more lets say close minded to such options due to as you quite rightly say their own insecurities, jealousies or upbringing perhaps.

So, when I "question you :-)' about these things always know that it's from a place of genuine interest and never having a dig and I'll be genuinely interested to see how things pan out for you all over the coming months and years, I get the feeling that many other people are sitting back and watching too without commenting so I wouldn't worry about long posts as I think your story will run and run.....one way or the other !:-) ......and needless to say I really do hope that that's in a very positive way for you all and with your good hearted open and clear thinking about how things can and might pan out obvious right from the start I can't see why you can't all stay very happy together in your "strange" relationship :-)

[bruce_nyc]

@Khor tose: Thanks for your clarification. Very interesting. I am no expert in this. That does make sense. I remember all the discussion now about that young student guy who was here as a PR and he's the one who set up his gay roommate to catch him on skype video and taped it or broadcast it to a few friends or some such... his roommate making out with another guy... and his roommate was later so traumatized that he killed himself... and there was all this talk about the perpetrator guy possibly being deported as a result of his conviction. I bet that's exactly about what you were referring to. CIMT ( whatever that stands for )...

@NIrish: I appreciate your respectful curiosity, and I have no problem discussing it ( obviously ) :tongue3: I think the more these types of options are publicly discussed, the more people will realize that they have other options.... not just the option at the ending of every Walt Disney fairytail story.

Everyone should be aware that there are many ways to live and be happy. Showtime cable TV network has an interesting new series titled, "Polyamory". It's a "reality show" about the story of various 3somes and 4somes ( not gay per se ), but it's well done.

In fact, several single guys have thanked me for telling them my story.... saying things like, "You've opened my mind. Now, instead of just looking at single available guys, I might consider pursuing couples too... for a 3way relationship... if we're all into it."

Wow. Having that open mind to the possibility of a trio (or more)... just quadrupled the "market" of relationship possibilities in your town... in one instant! It's true. A thought, and an open mind, can change your entire world in an instant.

Another thought: I do not try to convince anyone that one lifestyle or relationship choice is "better" than any other. To me, that's like arguing that strawberry ice cream is obviously superior to mint-chocolate-chip ice cream. All I say is: I believe that this is the best choice for ME, for now. I am always open to change. And I never tell others what they should do. Life is a Grand Buffet.

The only broad value judgements I make are about general things like: love, honesty, health, caring, doing what's right

But even if someone chooses a life of endless lies and lying... I don't judge that person for his choice. In the end, his life will be a result of his thinking and his actions. And it's not for me to interfere with his choices or any lessons he is here to learn.

Here here Bruce I agree with everything you say - except for the part about the ice cream as you are obviously DELUDED as EVERYONE knows good old fashioned vanilla STILL is king when it comes to ice cream and trust the gays to start bigging up all these new fangled ideas and favours as something better - sometimes you can be TO forward thinking you know !!! Lol

[cdnmatt]

Getting a US green card based on marriage is that easy? I don't know, I always expected it to be just as hard, if not harder than Canada, but maybe not. I went through the whole Canadian PR status thing with my ex-husband, and it took about 18 months. He did get approved, got the card and everything, but then pissed it away. You have to spend 2 out of every 5 years in Canada to keep PR status, and he didn't bother doing that, so so much for his PR status. Sure glad I used up my one sponsorship and dropped $8000 on that.

No idea about US immigration law, so no real advice. Except make sure to keep all photographs with dates, letters you write each other, birthday / Christmas cards, etc. Immigration is going to want to see that, to help prove it's a genuine relationship. For Canada at least, we also had to get several family members to write letters on our behalf saying they know about the relationship, are approving of it, etc. They don't want people buying PR status via marriage, so they need to ensure it's a genuine relationship.

Again, no idea about US law, but in Canada at least if you sponsor a spouse for PR status, you're financially responsible for them for 3 - 10 years. Length depends on the case, and what the immigration officer decides. So for example, if my ex-husband ever tried to collect welfare or unemployment insurance, I could probably expect a visit from the cops asking me to cough up some money, if not worse.

Nonetheless, all the best to you guys!

Anybody that says that "gay marriage" qualifies your partner for automatic entry to your home country - is living in cloud cuckoo land.

There are all sorts of hoops to jump though before your partner will even be considered for a visa.

Get real for fuck sake,

[anonone]

I would be interested to hear why you think that way SG.

I have a straight friend who married a foreign SE Asia girl. It took some time and there was a lot of paperwork to complete, but there was nothing extraordinary about her getting her visa / residency card (and eventual citizenship).

My understanding for the USA is the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) which is what is believe will be overturned this summer, prevents the federal government from recognizing the many gay marriages being performed by various states. (DOMA actually defines marriage as between a man and woman for the purposes of all federal programs..which includes immigration along with social security, etc.).

Once the Supreme Court rules DOMA unconstitutional, I believe gay marriage will be seen as the same as hetero marriage for the purposes of immigration. So while it does not mean a gay spouse will be flown to the promised land on silver wings, we should be in the same position as straight spouse. A process, but not an unduly burdensome one.

Do you have a different take on it?

[Khor tose]

I would be interested to hear why you think that way SG.



I should wait for SG to reply, but I do know from a friend that things are not automatic in the UK. However, if DOMA is thown out, yes marriage and green card will be easy as long as you can prove the relationship is real and not some kind of fiscal transaction where someone pays you to marry them to get into the USA.

[pong]

think of overstay: do it like this. Try to be in that north on day 30/expiry (you can only extend that entry permit for 7 days locally-so thats no use to you). Go to the Burmaborder at MAE SAI and do that ''visarun''-go into Burma (just over the river) for 1 day-and get stamped into TH for new 15 days (arrival by land)- that way you have overstay 1 day when leaving BKK (as day 30=day 1 for 2nd permit), which is usually overlooked at (but you maybe asked to pay the 500 bt overstay fee-per day). You could do the same from CHiang KOng into Laos-but that cost more (as you have to pay visa for Laos=30/35 US$, 1 dayentry to Burma is only 10 US$ ''pocketmoney'')

Can we assume that you've posted the above in the wrong thread Pong or am I just very confused finding the link between the two subjects perhaps ?

Bruce, at first I was going to spend a couple of hours explaining why it is not nearly as easy as you think to (a) bring a Thai to the US and (b) Get a Green Card for him. But first letтАЩs see what the Supreme Court does, and if they come to the rescue, see how long it takes US Immigration (CIS) to accept and implement the mandate of the Court. You might, if all goes well, be looking at your Thai BFтАЩs arrival in the US about 2 years from now.

You have not said anything in your extensive posts that would lead a CIS or US Consular officer to approve a fianc├йe visa for your Thai bf, and even if that hurdle were miraculously cleared, it is quite unlikely that a CIS officer in the US would feel it was reasonable to grant your Thai bf a Green Card. I've been dealing with marriage and fiancee cases for 25 years, so I am familiar with the difficulties that couples face.

As Scottish-Guy said, тАЬтАж.There are all sorts of hoops to jump though before your partner will even be considered for a visaтАжтАжтАж..тАЭ.

[Khor tose]

As Scottish-Guy said, тАЬтАж.There are all sorts of hoops to jump though before your partner will even be considered for a visaтАжтАжтАж..тАЭ.

My BF already has a visa for the USA, and the lawyer I talked to in the US said that if we were married and DOMA was gone there would be no problem as our mariage would automatically be recognized by immigration without any adverse new laws coming from Congress. It is funny how your experience is so different then his. Are you a lawyer also?

Khor tose, My comments here are not meant to be critical of anyone but instead are meant to provide insight as to how some consular and immigration officers approach case adjudication.

I agree with the lawyer you spoke with but from what I can understand on this thread, your situation is vastly different from that of Bruce. My agency assists prospective visa applicants in Vietnam who hope to join their fianc├йe/spouse/immediate family members in the US. Over the years, weтАЩve seen that US Consulates in most countries routinely deny at least 20% of fianc├йe and marriage cases because they feel that these are shams, arranged for immigration purposes, lacking the characteristics of a bona fide spousal relationship.

Your BF already has a visa for the US and with DOMA struck down, the path to marriage and a green card would be unobstructed, as your lawyer said. However, the first question in a case like BruceтАЩs is, How would the bf get a visa for the US? ItтАЩs unlikely he would qualify for a tourist visa since he appears to lack the economic and family ties that would motivate him to return to Thailand when a tourist visa expires. The remaining options are fianc├йe and spouse visas.

Bruce hopes for a fianc├йe visa. In that process, Step One would be to file a fianc├йe petition with Immigration in the US after DOMA is removed, and while the bf remains in Thailand awaiting approval. That application would require that both persons are legally free to marry. Bruce is not married but how to explain to Immigration the presence of his current US partner of 20 years and the fact that the Thai bf would be coming to the US as an addition to a free-flowing domestic arrangement, rather than as BruceтАЩs partner in a long term monogamous union? DOMA may go away, but CIS officers and Consular officers are going to continue applying traditional hetero-union expectations to fianc├йe and spouse cases no matter which sexes are involved. The US bf would somehow have to disappear from this whole scenario and there could be no evidence that he and Bruce are sharing a residence.

There would have to be evidence of an ongoing relationship dating back to the first meeting, including photos, emails, phone and chat records, etc. Also need proof that the Thai bf is fluent enough in English to engage in more than monosyllabic conversation with the sponsor. Fianc├йe cases require proof of the sponsorтАЩs presence in Thailand, such as airline ticket stubs, boarding passes, visa stamps in passport, hotel receipts.

Somewhere along the line there are going to be questions about how the couple met. Spouse and fianc├йe applications require a biographic form from the applicant, detailing his occupation during the past five years. At interview, the consular or immigration officer will almost surely ask about the circumstances under which the couple met. If it is known that the bf worked in a boy bar, there will be additional red flags on the case.

Immigration officers living in Vermont or Nebraska, and consular officers growing up in traditional middle class America cannot be presumed to have attitudes akin to NYC metrosexuals. Even the slightest doubt about the genuine spousal nature of the relationship will be enough to get the case sidelined or denied.

Removal of DOMA will not automatically clear the way for people to legalize a m├йnage a trois. To most CIS officers, who will initially be hesitant about approving same sex marriage cases, the case in question might look like an American trying to add a foreign sex partner to his household to enhance/spice up his life (no offense intended, just trying to be realistic). The stumbling block here is how to convince CIS that Bruce has ended his long term relationship with his US partner and now wishes to sponsor his alien fianc├йe/spouse in a relationship that is genuine and is intended to be exclusive and enduring.

If the tourist visa and the fianc├йe visa approach would not work, then marriage outside the US would be the only remaining option, assuming they could find a country where two foreigners of the same sex can easily marry. Once a marriage was registered, the Fianc├йe Petition would not be an option. Marriage registration abroad would be followed by submission of an immigrant visa petition to CIS in the US. If CIS approves the petition, the case would eventually go to the US Consulate in Bangkok for review and processing. About a year after the petition was submitted in the US, the case would come up for interview at the Consulate. If approved, the bf would receive status as a Conditional Permanent Resident and after a few months in the US would receive a Green Card, good for 2 years. At the end of that time, CIS would evaluate the relationship to determine if it is genuine and meets all requirements. If CIS is satisfied, then a permanent Green Card is issued. Even тАЬpermanentтАЭ Permanent Residence can be revoked at any time, unlike US citizenship which is in most cases unassailable.

In addition to the immigrant visa petition, the sponsor would also need to commit himself to financial support of the alien bf for a period 10 years or until he becomes a US citizen. This obligation remains in force even if there is a divorce.

[Khor tose]

I understand now, and thank you for an interesting and very informative explanation. I really should have added that the lawyer did advise me not to tell immigration my BF was returning with me so that we can get married as they might deny him entry in spite of the visa. Now from your explanation, I understand why he probably said that. He must have been afraid they would require us to go the fiancee route. He suggested just to have him return with me as a tourist, get married and then apply for permanent resident status, so what you are saying makes a lot of sense. Thank you again for your thorough and informative response. My suggestion to Bruce would be to look you up and use your services as you definitely seem to be on top of the immigration situation.

Here in Australia a wedding certificate is meaningless for immigration what you have to prove is that the relationship is a genuine one that has already existed for some time you get a temporary visa and after two years of living together in Australia you have to prove the relationship still exists and then the partner gets permanent residence which you can lose if you don't actually live in Australia theres no reason America couldnt introduce that system right now the DOMA argument is a total red herring.

What totally pisses me off is that after fighting to make a wedding certificate totally irrelevant for Australian immigration for everyone 20 years ago the loony Left now want to have something called "gay marriage" as if somehow that gives equality theres no fool like a young fool.

Kor Tose, Lawyer was correct again. If there's even a whiff of suspicion that your BF is entering the US on a tourist visa with the intent to marry, he would be escorted to a departure lounge for the next flight back to Thailand.

[anonone]

Bobaigon...thank you very much for taking the time to explain the various options and process. Very helpful.

If the Court rules to strike down DOMA, I will be giving quite a bit of thought to this.

In addition to the obvious hurdles with immigration, I am actually more concerned that BF will not be happy living in the US...so might be a moot point anyway. I would love for him to freely visit the US with me though....

A guy I know here in Brissie fell in love with a bar boy and got him through the Immigration hurdles to get him to Australia the boy found a reasonably paying job cooking in a Thai restaurant and did quite well

My friend has always been very up himself about gay marriage and equality with heterosexual and all that sort of stuff so when he applied for his Aussie pension he got a very rude shock. They said he's married to his boyfriend and the boyfriend has enough income to support them both so no pension. Geez he was angry but I havent laughed so much in years be careful what you ask for I say.

[bruce_nyc]

Thanks for the loads of information about immigration issues. I will definately study it all more carefully before the time comes that we have to deal with all of that. We are still expecting a verdict from the US Supreme Court on DOMA in June 2013.

Just for an update...

We had a fantastic time in Pattaya... stayed at the Ambiance... saw all our friends there... went to the show at the Copa almost every night (once we went to both the early and the late show... because a couple of the performers weren't in the first show... In fact, the most beautiful "female" performer, we were saddened to hear, has left the Copa as she was recruited to go work in the Alcazar Show. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMaicYKYjJY ) Got to spend lots of quality time with his famly. His Mama was in town babysitting his nephew so that his sister could go back to work... until his grandmother got sick, and Mama had to go back home to Nakhon Si Thammarat to take care of her.

We're now in Chiang Mai for a week. It's interesting.... It's been a mixed bag of great.... and terrible...

We're staying at the Mercure hotel. I'm really not happy with anything about this hotel except one thing... the location. We can walk to Adam's Apple and Circle. But... If we hadn't already paid for a week in advance, I would check out right away. The bed's matress is hard. I am sick with a cold now because the air conditioning blows directly on your face when you sleep. The internet is flakey, and they give you all sorts of grief if you want to connect with more than one device at the same time ( 2 laptops and 3 mobile phones ). The tv didn't work, but they fixed it. (Only "T" cares about the tv.) The water pressure is very weak. The hot water isn't hot. Housekeeping lets you run completely out of toilet tissue, facial tissue, shampoo, etc. They give you two skimpy little thin motel bath towels. The hot water appliance had dirt inside it. When I pointed that out to the maid, she wiped it with a cloth and gave it back to me. The breakfast (which we paid $16 per day extra for) is not good. They run out of coffee well before closing the buffet and they don't replace it. The service is generally horrible. Meanwhile, it's not cheap. $75 per night ($59+$16 for breakfast) seems like a lot for the 2-star class of place this is. If we had it to do over again, I might try the gay hotel directly across the street from Adam's Apple, called Lotus Hotel. I haven't seen the rooms yet, but I plan to stop in and ask them to see a room. I'll let you know what they look like. Maybe we've just been irrepairably spoiled by the service at the Ambiance, and the convenience of everything in Pattaya.

Where to begin.... First, Chiang Mai's gay scene --- what there is of it --- is so dispursed that you need a taxi to go from one place to another.... and lots of time to get from place to place. It's also really hard to have any clue where to go in the first place. All we had to go by was the ads on web sites and magazines.... which, as everyone knows, are often not as they appear. ( They are "highly recommended" only because they paid for an ad, for example. ) Nothing is easy to find. In fact, quite the opposite. Everything is a major project to find.... as if it's a hidden black door.... down a dark alley corridor.... with no sign and no address. You almost need to hire a gay tour guide just to take you to each of the gay establishments.... but even that wouldn't really be practical.

Our first night here, we were starving. I thought we'd try a gay restaurant. I thought I was prepared. I had the Thai Puan magazine in my hand, and it had a map of Gay Chiang Mai. We hopped into a tuk tuk... and I fumbled to find a gay restaurant. For some reason, there seemed to not be ONE gay restaurant in their listings... Well, "T" was starving, so in his impatience he took it upon himself to speak to the driver in Thai. He told him to "take us to the gay area so we could find a gay restaurant." When he told me what he had done.... I said, "No!" .....but it was too late. We were already on our way. He had been quoted a price of 60 baht. I figured, What the hell. Let's see where he takes us. About 35 minutes later.... after driving all across Chiang Mai... O M G... for 35 minutes in this tuk tuk... we pulled up in front of an old dilapidated building. It looked like it had been closed, chained up and abandoned YEARS ago. It doesn't look like it was ever a restaurant. And it doesn't even have the remnants of any sign any more. It wasn't near any other life at all. My patience had really come to its end. "T" was complaining still about how hungry he was. Trying my hardest to remain calm and avoid the uncomfortable Thai "confrontation" scene... I simply got out of the tuk tuk and said to the driver, "Why did you take us here!?" ...as I pointed to my watch, "35 minutes to come here!?" ...pointing to the building. I handed him 60 baht and we began walking the other way... to find some other tuk tuk to take us somewhere. The driver began saying that he knew another gay place, and he was sure it was only 5 minutes away. I ignored him and continued walking the other way. They followed me. ( Later I tried to explain to "T" why you never never let a taxi driver tell YOU where to go... You must always tell HIM where you want to go. )

Luckily, I remembered that we had just passed a fabulous-looking property that looked like a 5-star hotel.... and I remembered that the name of it was Shangri La ( http://www.shangri-la.com/chiangmai/shangrila/ ). So we found a tuk tuk and asked him to take us to the Shangri La. As soon as he began driving, we passed it. Funny thing is, it was only like one block from where we had been standing when we got into the tuk tuk. But I had to tap the tuk tuk driver on the shoulder to tell him that he had just passed it. He turned around and took us up to the door. He wanted 400 baht for the 1 block journey. When I complained, he got hostile. This was not turning out to be a "lucky" evening at all.

But.... inside the Shangri La things got better. I went straight to the concierge desk, and, just as I had hoped, there were two handsome young gay boys working there. I explained everything to them and they helped us wonderfully. They suggested we first go to Riverside restaurant for dinner. Excellent Thai food with a beautiful scenic atmosphere right on and overlooking the river. (They failed to mention that the prices were surprisingly low too.) "T" loved the Thai food. Our "luck" seemed to be turning around... We loved that restaurant. After, we took a tuk tuk to find a gay bar --- just a random one that I had heard someone mention --- called, See Man Pub. It was a very long journey from there, and once we got there, the tuk tuk drove up and down and back a forth.... Even with the map from the magazine, we could not find the place. These maps in magazines are so useless. They usually only have a number on a map. No address listed. No phone number listed. Much less taxi directions in Thai. I don't understand why they don't include an address, telephone number, and directions in Thai. So odd. Anyway, we finally gave up on trying to find See Man... And I just asked the tuk tuk driver to take us to Adam's Apple. Luckily, he knew exactly where that was. And so did I. It's only a short disctance from our hotel.

Adam's Apple was fun. Lots of attractive young guys. The mamasan / hosts were young, exremely friendly, and exceptionally helpful. I give them an A+. The only problem we ran into there... was a recurring problem I run into everywhere with Thai boys... The ones I'm ( all 3 of us, in fact ) are always attracted to, are the masculine, maybe even slightly muscular, ones... and they are always "man" ( not gay ). Thai boys seem to come in only two flavors: "man" ( not gay and won't bottom ), or "ladyboy" ( very feminine and love to bottom ). So I'm always forced to choose between the body I want... and the activity I want. What a Bummer!

So I was told by the mamsan, Vincent, that of the 25 or 30 boys they had that night... only 3 would bottom. He showed me the three. None were appealing. One was just 18 and it was his very first night on the job. I would be his first customer. So I bought him a drink. But "T" was not impressed. "He ladyboy". "T" was really frustrated that I would even consider such a "ladyboy". (He just wasn't man enough for him, I guess.) So after having three or four different boys sit with us, and buying them all drinks, and tipping them.... We went home without off-ing anyone. But I knew we'd be back.

By the way, in Chiang Mai, don't expect the boys to speak or understand one word of English. I mean literally, not one word. Not yes, not no, not hello, not thank you. They have zero English comprehension. Even the hosts/mamasans often only speak a level of English equal to the worst-English-skilled boy in Pattaya.

The second night, we went to a gay restaurant called Perns ( http://www.pernsfood.com ). The food was very good. The proprieters were exceptionally nice, hospitable, and helpful. They gave us a copy of Out in Thailand magazine, which they say is better, and gave us lots of suggestions of places to go... based on what we told them we like. I would definately go back. As a side note, I was impressed by the charity work they do... which I read about on their web site... to help Burmese refugees ( http://www.pernsfood.com/supporting-burma.html ).

Then, last night, we went to dinner at a gay restaurant just beyond Adam's Apple, on the same alleyway/soi. It's called Spirit House. The atmosphere was very cool. The proprietor was American and very friendly and hospitable when he came over and greeted us. The food was ok. Not bad. Not great. The service was pretty much non-existant though. I mean, I'm cool with "laid back"... But after taking our order, and later delivering our food, it was like the entire staff went home. No one was anywhere to be found. I had to finally get up and go inside and find someone to ask for the check... literally. It was the stangest thing. I probably wouldn't go back. But the atmosphere is nice.... maybe just a good place to have a drink and hang out.

I decided I wanted to try out one of the gay massage places. There are so many, and all over town.... with no clear sign of which one is best. So, one website listed "**recommended**" next to a place called, "Gemini Massage".... so we tried it. Wow. It was the worst experience ever. The woman who runs it spoke no English. She wanted 700 baht from me, and 500 baht for "T".... Plus a minimum tip of 500 for the boy. There were only four boys to choose from. They all acted like they were not interested. It was as if they were saying, "Please don't pick me." One smiled. Even though he was homely, he smiled. So I picked him. "T" picked the bigged strongest one because he just wanted a good strong Thai massage. The girly boy with me was barely even touching me. It was an absolute joke! I kept thinking, This is a massage?? Finally, 15 minutes in, I just got up and wiped the oil off that he has squrted all over me, and said, "Finished." I tipped him the stated minimum of 500 baht and got dressed and went downstairs. The woman asked me, Massage good? I said, No. No good. She said, You can change. You can change to a new one. And she pointed to the one and only other boy. He was kinda cute, so I rolled my eyes and asked her, Can he massage? She had no idea what I was asking. I finally said ok. He turned out to be cute and 18. But also could not massage if his life depended on it. And he is not gay, so would not do anything else either. Later "T" told me that his boy was just as bad. He did not massage him at all.... and even though he told the boy he wanted no sex... The boy, apparently fearful that he would not get a big tip, went down and smoked him anyway! I had to tip all 3 boys. The total bill was 2700 baht. ....and 100% a waste of time and money. A horrible experience.... and a seedy dirty place too.

Later we checked out Circle... which is another gay go go club. It was good. I think we were the only falong customers there. It seems very oriented toward a local Thai customer base. And the boys were more a "mature" age of 25-35.... as opposed to Adam's Apple's 18-25 age group of boys. After that, we stopped in at Free Guy Club.... just because it was on the way... walking. As for Free Guy Club, don't bother. Someone said it's "sleezy". I would say, It is extremely seedy, and not in a good way. It's really nasty, and nothing worth looking at inside. Sorry, it wasn't worth entering the door... much less buying a drink.

Then, surprise surprise, we ended up at Adam's Apple again.

This time "T" was in a much better mood. Not long after we got there, he pointed out that one of the boys on stage had a "good body". That was so unusual for him to say, I had to follow up on it.... I said, You like him? He nodded yes. But added, "But he man. You cannot f___ him." I said, "Want to off him and just play...? Not f___....?" He nodded yes. So it was on! :-) He sat with us and had a drink. His name is Noom. He's 24, and "T" has a great eye. His body is perfection. He's handsome too. He's "man", but once we got back to our room... He was the first one to be "strong" as a rock.... I thought to myself, This boy is secretly gay! We had fun... It was worth the 1000 baht he wanted. I gave him 1200.

Later I found out that he had told "T" in Thai that he has a girlfriend, and that he took a viagra to be sure he could get it up. Oh well. What the customer doesn't know can't hurt him, I suppose.

Oh, and last night we already told the mamsan that we wanted Noom tonight, and Bank tomorrow night. So we're supposed to be there at 10pm to watch the 10:30pm with Bank, then off him to play. We'll see how that goes later tonight.

By the way, one of the mamasans at Adam's Apple, after we told him the Gemini story, told us of a great place to get an excellent Thai massage ( no sex ). It's called The Best Massage and it's at the night market. Supposedly it's really good and professional. They have male and female masseurs, and it's 200 baht. We'll attempt to find it and let you know.... ( Note: So far, I have yet to experience a "professional no sex" Thai massage.... where I did NOT get sex.... in addition to a great massage. I am beginning to think that a "no sex" massage does not really exist. As long as I get a male massuer, and about 3/4 of the way through it, I reach out and touch them... I always get sex. ) Usually the sex massages give you a lousy massage followed by lousy sex. The no-sex massages usually give you a fantastic trained massage, followed by sex.... sometimes just ok.... sometimes great. I always get the phone number of the ones who are exceptional. Later, appointments to come to your room can be scheduled via sms.

It makes me wonder why anyone pays 1400+ baht for a gay sex massage.... when I get a better massage, and sometimes better sex, at the places at the end of the street across the road, that's 400 baht including tip. Having said that however, I must say that the boys at the Ambiance Gym massage are real pros. They really know what they're doing.... giving very good massages and very good sex. Especially memorable was "Pas". Also, I tried that Scandic Massage once. Bad. The boy was supposed to be one of the only TWO who would bottom. Turned out he could not speak any English. He could not massage. Then he tried to put a condom on himself... and lubed it up with massage oil... I turned around and said, "What do you think you're doing?" .....and just at that moment the condom shattered... as they do when exposed to oil or petrolium products. Oh my gosh.... These guys are clueless. ( If you bottom, make sure you supply the condom and proper lube on a clean dry cock. )

Meanwhile, "D" has been very busy with Grindr and Jackd and Scruff. He has had a least one "sex date" each day so far.... and is very happy. I'm really glad for him.... because he's never had that experience before. He came to Thailand for the first time, last time, and spent the entire time with just us 3. Now it's his turn to get wild... and it's a good thing. He's also taking a Thai cooking class.... which I hope to reep the benefits from when we get home. ;-)

Anyway, today was a full day with a tour guide. We went to a silk making place.... to see how silk is made the ancient way... and buy products. We went to a parasol making place.... to see how parasol are made the ancient way... and buy products. Then we went to the king's winter palace on the top of the mountain... then the temple on the same mountain. "T" was pleased. He took 1000 photos.... mostly of himself.

Now, it's 8:30pm. An hour and a half before "Bank" time at Adam's Apple. Maybe we'll just find a Thai place to eat nearby... "T" saw one the other day.

So far, I think 3 or 4 days here would have been enough time.... if you have a hired gay guide or friend. Otherise, it would take you 3 or 4 days just to find your way around.

More updates later. :-)

Back in Pattaya on the 4th.... for 10 more days.

Being here makes us appreciate Pattaya more. :-)

PS - Yes, agree with Sang's description of Adam's Apple. Naked boys with erections in spiderman outfits and all. ( would-like-some-tips-for-relative-newbee-please-t27868.html#p266829 (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/would-like-some-tips-for-relative-newbee-please-t27868.html#p266829) )

[Neal]

geez Brucie I don't know what to say as I was in Chaing Mai and the best massage place that I went to for sex WAS Gemini and had a gret time with most of the boys. In fact on of my current loves, Joe of 4 years used to work there. And as far as some of the clubs. there were boring never ending shows and I finlly wound up at Free Guy and it was the best. They also had rooms upstairs and while they were very basic, I found myself there almost every night. I guess to each their own. :dontknow:

[bruce_nyc]

It just goes to show... A place --- and even a city --- can be completely different from one time to another.... and from one person's experience to another.

That's why every review should be read with a grain of salt.

What floats one person's boat, might be repulsive to another.

And one off night can make a terrible first impression.... even if it might be wonderful every other day....

Go figure...

[a447]

Bruce, your experience in Chiang Mai reflects mine almost exactly!

The only difference is that I thought the food at the Spirit House was delicious - especially the kao soi noodle dish.

I remember Bank at Adams Apple but never got around to off him. I did have a bit of a cuddle at the bar, though. I hope he turns out to be a worthwhile off.

I had a great massage at 2brothers massage just around the corner from the Meridien Hotel.

[bruce_nyc]

Last night we offed Bank from Adam's Apple. He was fun. He's 21 and has worked there for 6 months. Cute and fun. I find that often they do more than they claim to be willing to do.... once you're behind closed doors. He is a great kisser, for example. It was a hot threesome.

Today we woke up late. Too late for the breakfast buffet. So we ventured over to the Lotus Hotel. I'm still afraid to try to eat there since I have yet to see a single human there. No customers and no staff.

But I did ask to see the rooms. The rooms are old and the place looks deserted. We've never seen a guest or a customer there. Only the one girl at the desk. The same girl showed us the rooms. The place looked like 0% occupancy. Each room is very different from the others. Completely unique. Rooms are also overpriced. It did make me feel much better about Mercure Hotel, by comparison.

I must tell you about a place to eat that we found. Directly across the soi from Spirit House. It's called Nu's Place. "T" had spotted it while we were sitting at Spirit House the other evening. He could see their huge banner which is an illustrated menu. So we went there for lunch today. I ordered a club sandwich with fries. 50 baht. I'm still shocked at how good it was! "T" went crazy ordering about 3 dishes, including a whole fish, soup, extra rice, etc. It was silly cheap. And the food was excellent. I asked the waiter, "Who is Nu?" ( the owner, I assumed...) He said, "I am Nu." I shook his hand and thanked him.

Tonight we've been invited to the 6th aniversary party of, and at, Secrets Bar.

I guess we'll go to dinner at that restaurant we liked so much called Riverside. It's not gay, but the food and atmosphere is wonderful. Then go to Garden Bar at the Lotus Hotel ( I heard some cute freelancers hang there. ) for one drink at 9pm. Then to Adam's Apple for one drink at 10pm. We'll see if we have another boy to join our evening by then.... And then go to Secrets for their aniversary party by around 11pm.

Tomorrow there's a major flower festival and parade in town. And I think I will try that 2 Brothers Massage place. "D" tried 2 Brothers Massage the other day. He thought it was ok but "not worth the money". ( But he's as cheap as they come so, again, I take that with a grain of salt. I might try the place myself and let you know what I think. )

Then Sunday we arranged for a private car and driver for a combined tour trip and visa run to Myanmar. After getting my visa extended for 15 days ( I leave Thailand on the 14th), we will stop at several major tourist attractions on the way back to Chiang Mai.... "the white temple", "the black house", "the golden triangle"... I have no idea what these are, but they seem to be popular sites to see.... so why not. I have seen many photos of the white temple, so why not. At least I can say I have been there.... when I'm old and gray. ha ha ( oldER and grayER )

[bruce_nyc]

@a447

The food at Spirit House was good, to be fair. I had the fried chicken with Bleu Cheese.

"T" did not care for the Thai food, but that's only because it was Northern Thai food from Chiang Mai. And he's not use to that. He prefers central and southern Thai food.

I think what put off our experience there was the dropping the ball in service, how the entire staff completely disappeared. We must have waited at least 40 minutes before I finally got up and went inside to find someone to get us the check. And they never did visit our table again even after we left. ( I know this because we waited for ANOTHER 40 minutes out front... waiting for a tuk tuk... It was pouring rain and we didn't have an umbrella or even a jacket on. So we waited on the front porch of Spirit House. )

By the way, I didn't mention it, but.... not long after we had ordered our food... and we were sitting outside in the side garden area.... in a table under it's own large gazabo roof... it began raining very very hard.... and then all the lights went out. The electricity went out for the whole area, so the entire block was dark. I have to hand it to them though.... They did come to the table and refresh our candle with a new taller one... and they did deliver our food, just the same. Someone later told me that they cook with natural gas from tanks anyway, so they have no problem cooking without electricity. The lights were out from just after we ordered.... until after we paid the check and were waiting for a tuk tuk... so we ate in the dark by candlelight. :-)

[Neal]

There is a member of this forum that owns a gay place to eat and I would be interested in knowing what you think.

http://www.gayinchinagmai.com and http://www.radchada.com

[a447]

Bruce wrote:
I think what put off our experience there was the dropping the ball in service, how the entire staff completely disappeared. We must have waited at least 40 minutes before I finally got up and went inside to find someone to get us the check.

Yep, my experience exactly. The service there certainly is er..laid back, to say the least!

[bruce_nyc]

@Neal

I did read about Radchada Garden Cafe online too, from their website, and I'd like to try it. Only thing is, it seems a bit far from here... like a "destination"... and the food is mainly only light meals and pizza. I heard it's hit or miss.... So while I'd like to try it, I'm not sure if it's worth it... or if we would be the only ones there... Or when would be the best time to go... For lunch maybe? They are open 10am to 10pm.... Seems more like a nice B&B setting or something. If we make it over there, I'll let you know.

[bruce_nyc]

So much has happened.... I don't know how I could ever put it all into words....

I'll try to make a very very very long story short... and elaborate later, upon request.... or as time permits ( even if you don't request :ink: )

Sorry for my absense again... I was so busy LIVING Thailand... while I was there, that I could not spare 30 minutes to read or post here... And since being home, I'm only now just beginning to.... both --- get adjusted back to the 12-hour time difference AND get caught up on all of my backlogged work.... ( only about 1072 more new voicemail, texts, and emails to go ).... ( i wish i were joking about that number, but i'm not )....

Anyway, we now have 3..... yes, count 'em..... 3..... Thai boyfriends.... ( and that's not counting the 1-2 other boys PER DAY I did while there )

This trip, "D" ( my American boyfriend ) went off on his own and did Thailand.... and I do mean he DID Thailand. The last trip, in August/September was "D's" very first trip to Thailand. It was wonderful.... But he only stayed with "T" and I. The three of us were inseperable, and we had the times of our lives.... But "D" had never experienced wild playing in Thailand.... beyond "T".... So, I was very very happy that "D" decided NOT to see us this time... He went off totally solo and had the most amazing time of his life. I'll tell you a few of those stories later.... omg.... He was doing 3-5 boys per day.... and the entire time, the grand total he spent on boys: $0.00 He met them all through Scruff, Grindr, and Jackd... in Chiang Mai, Bangkok, and Pattaya.

Meanwhile... in Pattaya, I was very busy "doing" about 1 or 2 new boys every day, in the daytime... And no, no sneaking. No secrets. No lies. Everybody knows everything. At breakfast, I would tell "T" that I was going to see a boy at 2pm today, for example. He would say, "I'll go home around 1pm, and you sms (text) me when you're finished." Sometimes it was a sex massage from the Boyztown boys. Sometimes it was a non-sex massage from the non-sex massage shops nearby.... ( which always ended up in sex anyway ). Sometimes it was someone I had connected with in advance and began texting and arranged an appointment with, to come to my room. In any case.... It worked out beautifully. "T" wasn't bothered by that at all. And I was so happy about that. We spent our evenings together like a happy married couple.

The only thing that bothered him slightly, is the way many Thai boys love to talk.... ( we would call it gossip ).... Some would even see him walking alone and ask him, "Why does your boyfriend have other boys during the day when you leave him alone?" I'm not sure if anyone would consider that a rude question.... or just people being sincere and curious.... but it bothered him... a little. He doesn't like confrontation... even polite confrontation. ( Of course, I am not afraid of such questions. I even welcome them. I view it as an opportunity to educate people. :-) )

When he and I went to Chiang Mai.... we even offed one boy every evening from Adam's Apple.... One night we offed two at the same time... Slightly surprisingly... "T" had no problem with that at all.... He even participated fully. I now understand why... It was because he had never been to Chiang Mai before. He knows no one there. And he felt it very unlikely that he would ever see those people again. Sleeping with people from Boyztown, for him, would be like having sex with the gay guys in the building we live in in New York. Many people would feel like it would be too awkward... to later see them on the elevator... forever more.... ( Again, I am so brazen, it wouldn't bother me. But it does bother "D"... so we try to avoid hooking up with guys in our own building in New York. )

I did a lot of things which were probably unconsciously, or consciously, testing "T".... I had a boy every night in Chiang Mai, for a 3some. I had 2 boys one night. Then, I had the same boy a second time. Then, I invited that boy to go with us on our trip to Myanmar ( for a visa run and guided tours ).... Each step of the way, pushing the envelope further.... to see if he could deal with it. He did great..... even though I could tell it was not easy for him.

Finally, I found his breaking point. The thing that really hurt him. And I was very surprised by what I learned about him... and his heart.... and by the thing that hurt him. None of what I had done in Chiang Mai or Myanmar bothered him at all.... All the threesomes were fine..... Even later, me seeing boys for sex every day during the daytime in Pattaya ( with his full knowledge ) never bothered him. What hurt him? When I started spending a lot of time with one particular boy. We all three went to the movies, and to dinner, and even to the show at the Copa. I even had him spend the night with us, overnight.... THAT is what hurt him. Ironically, I'm really not that into that boy.... So I was perfectly happy to stop spending time with him.... and just say hello and be friendly with him. Then, "T" came around and went back to normal. I think he was just feeling very insecure.... as if he was about to be replaced or something. Awwww.... I told him that he could never be replaced, and that I love him forever.... which is true.

There are more stories though......

Before my trip was over..... I ended up in TWO new relationships..... two other boys... "G" and "E"... ( I'm suddenly wondering if I am going to run out of letters in the alphabet ) :umn:

So...... There are 5 of us now..... myself, "D", "T", "G", and "E"..... I'll tell the story of how I met "G" and "E" ( I met them separately ), and how both relationships have quicky begun developing..... soon. I'll write more later... as time permits.

Oh, and "D" and I will be back in Thailand again starting April 18th.... for maybe 4-6 weeks. We haven't bought our tickets or booked our hotels yet.... We're just in the initial planning stage so far.

[timmberty]

can i ask why you would want to post more ?
not wishing to be rude .. but you are like most sex tourists, even to the extent of the a.b.c. thing..
none of it is anything new. im sure you love a. or was it b. oh no, it was d. no thats your american boyfriend, i just read back, its t .. silly me how could i forget ..
there are many boring sex trip reports on here already, please dont feel the need to add to it.
ta.
infact post away, i need to see if the ignor button works, and nothing better than a boring person to use it on.

As I opined above, it is most unikely that T will ever get any kind of visa to go to the US, but if he does..... He finds himself in a foreign country, with no cultural, social or familial support system, and finds that despite his being so "special" that he has obtained a visa, he is really only one of the numerous sex partners that his sponsor has at his disposal in NYC. I suspect T would soon be heading for the nearest concentration of Thais, such as Washington DC or maybe even Los Angeles, to attempt to regain some normalcy in his life. IMHO, and no offense intended, the kindest thing Bruce could do for T would be to leave him in Thailand and find some Thai or other Asian playmates who are already in New York.

[joe552]

very sound advice, bob - well done.

[bruce_nyc]

None of us know what the future holds.... We don't even know for sure what the Supreme Court is going to do about DOMA yet....

But in any case, my / our relationship with "T" is very real..... It's not all about a visa, a green card, or immigration issues. Our relationship is..... as is each of my relationships.... a living thing... and it will grow and develop exactly as it is meant to.

And my post above is not all about a visa, a green card, or immigration issues. It is about a human being's emotional well-being, which would be severly tested if, as a stranger in a strange land, he were to find himself in the free-wheeling environment of multiple relationships. I just hope for his sake that it works out as well as you think it will.

[latintopxxx]

timberty...stop being a bitch...just because you cant get an erection dont take it out on others...i too have similar holidays...and thats what keeps me coming back...the fact that good...and I mean A1 good sex...is avaialble for almost nothing....one can live like a roman emperor....maybe you want to make love..have a holiday romance..whatever...some of us just want to empty our balls....

[bruce_nyc]

Bob, thanks for your concern about "T". In fact, there should be no surprises.... He's already "found himself in the free-wheeling environment of multiple relationships".... right in his home in Thailand... so we'll continue making every effort to be 100% certain that he (1) knows what he's getting himself into, and (2) that he really really really wants it, and is ready for it.

We're not interested in forcing anything on anyone. If he doesn't really really want it himself, then we'd definately not pursue more with him. And the same goes for "G", and for "E".... and any of us. None of us are kept in this relationship against our will.

We wouldn't even consider bringing him to the US unless he continues to really really really want to go with us.... knowing that our relationship is polyamorous, and living accordingly.... now.

We're all about communication and honesty, and most importantly, love. So there are no secrets.

"T" has told me that he does not want to know the details of my sexploits with other boys. We wants to know about them, and wants to know when and where, so that he can conveniently go do other things.... But he does not want to be there or be involved... if it's in Pattaya. If it's in any other city, he seems happy to even be involved. So that's all good. It's up to him. As long as we are 100% honest, and we are holding true to our principals of love and respect, we're all good and happy.
__________

So....... Here's how I met the other two....

I was supposed to fly back to New York on February 14th... yeah, Valentine's Day. I hadn't even given that date a thought when I booked the flights. But as that date drew nearer, I decided to change my flight by 2 days to stay longer... and I am so glad I did.

Flashback to September.

Last September, on my last trip to Thailand..... On the street, I spotted a guy who was unbelievably hot. He was so handsome, and his body looked like absolute perfection... He was not a massage boy, nor a go go bar boy, as far as I knew... I had no idea how to meet him.... or even talk with him. I only hoped that he was gay.... and I certainly did not know if he would like me or not. Weirdly, I kept seeing him all over town... and looking at him just put me into a dreamy trance.... which almost never happens to me. But it went nowhere. I had no idea how to meet him.

Then, this trip, in January, I saw him talking with someone I know.... AAaaaaahhhh.... This was my golden opportunity! Later, I talked with my friend... the one who I had seen talking with him. I just came right out and said, "I want that guy." "What is his name?" "Where does he work?" "Is he single?" "Does he like falang guys?" etc, etc....

Well, by the next day, my friend had contacted him and asked if it was ok to give me his name a phone number... and he did. "Go ahead and text him or call him. He's waiting to hear from you.", I was told. .......so I did.

We texted back and forth for about two weeks.... before he finally found time to fit me into his busy schedule.... and meet me. But when we finally met.... sparks flew like Wow! Bottom Line: It was the very best sex of my entire life.

Apparently, he was just as crazy about me as I was about him..... Two days later we hooked up again..... And we've pretty much been seeing each other every since. And every time, it's the same..... the very best sex of my life.

On top of all that, I'm getting to know him..... and as far as I can tell.... He is an unbelievable angel.... an amazing heart.... sensative, passionate, and very intelligent.... ( all things that really turn me on, by the way )....

So........ We are now calling ourselves boyfriends. I'll call him, "G". He's 24. He works out daily. His job keeps him extremely busy though.

Of course, "D" and "T" know all about him.... and he knows all about "T" and "D"..... It's amazing.

When I come back to Thailand, "G" and I are planning a special trip for just he and I..... just the two of us..... to Chiang Mai for one week.... just to spend some real quality time together, to get to know each other better. We're both really looking forward to that.
__________

Two days after I met "G"..... that afternoon.... I had an hour to kill, so I went to get a massage at one of those non-sex massage places.... as I entered, I spotted this really cute young boy sitting with the others out front. A couple of the older masseurs followed me inside, but I told the guy seated at the desk, "I'd like that guy." ......pointing outside at the cute boy. They conceeded and got that boy to massage me. I wanted a Thai massage... But they informed me that he could only do an oil massage.... So I said Ok.... That's fine.

The massage was amazing.... and, of course, I'm mostly not taling about the massage part of the massage..... And basically, that's how I met "E". He's just a baby..... At 19 years old, he's the youngest guy I've ever been with.... but there's something about him that is just amazing. His English is nearly non-existant, which is definately a challenge..... But after the first time we met, he just said to me, "I love you." ha ha I'm not sure if that's the only phrase he knew how to say in English.... or if he was just trying to say something like, "It was great. Let's do this again sometime." :-) In any case, I saw him again every day until I left to go back to New York.
__________

On my last day in Pattaya, it was very interesting. I managed to spend some great intimate time with each of the three of them.... and get my teeth whitened at the dentist.... all before I had to leave for the airport.

"D" and I are in constant contact with all three of them..... via any combination of: telephone calls, sms, viber, whatsapp, line, wechat, tango, and email.... We send each other photos of what's happening in our days... and evenings.... all the time.... 24/7...... and we chat voice on the phone at least every 2-3 days..... all 5 of us....

We are in the planning stages of our next trip.... Planning to arrive on April 18th and go directly from Bangkok to Chiang Mai with "G" for the first week..... Then to Pattaya, where all three of them live, and I'll be able to spend time with all 3 of them.... around their various schedules. I'm still not sure if "D" is going to join us.... or if he's going to go off on his own again.... or some combination thereof. I really hope, and encourage him to, join us..... especially since he hasn't even met "G" or "E" in person yet. He's only met them over video phone calls, and many photos, videos, etc.

All three of them, "T", "G", and "E", work very long hours..... But "G" will be taking that one week off from work ( April 18 - 24 ) so we can spend it together in Chiang Mai.... "T" will be taking a few weeks off starting April 25th... And I'm not sure yet if "E" will be taking any time off or not yet. I am thinking about somehow planning for some alone time with him too.... The biggest problem with "E" is his English. One of my best Thai friends, however, has gone out of his way to call him and meet him and help by calling him and translating every email TO him... and helping write the replies back FROM him... too. But, in person, we'd almost need a Thai translator to be with us 24/7....

Well, whatever happens, I'm sure it will be an adventure. And these three are all just amazing.

One of my best friends, who has met all three ( all 4, including "D" ), said, "Bruce.............it looks as though you have cornered the market! A wonderful collection of the best and most sincere available........."

How sweet. I do feel the same way. :love4:

Bruce, when I was growing up in the NYC area, even if they suspected what it might mean, most people couldn't spell "polyamorous". Some of the readers on this board may continue to be puzzled by your use of the words "love" and "relationship". It appears that in your vocabulary, their meanings have evolved somewhat from the previously understood parameters. (That's meant to be a humorous understatement.)

I will have to see if there's a Thai language equivalent to "polyamorous" so I can use it instead of "butterfly" to describe myself to boys.

[bruce_nyc]

You bring up an excellent point. Many people probably don't know anything about polyamory. I would highly recommend that everyone become informed about it.... since it is becoming a major cultural phenominon. Newsweek calls it, "Polyamory: The Next Sexual Revolution". There are gay polyamory organizations here in New York City. There are Meet-ups. Showtime cable tv network even has a popular new reality tv show called, Polyamory.

See https://www.google.com/search?q=polyamorous

And https://www.google.com/search?q=polyamory

It's not the same thing as being a butterfly.

I am a butterfly too..... As I said, I had recreational sex with 1-3 boys every day... That's what I think people mean by, "being a butterfly".

But having a love relationship.... ( even if it's new and only in the dating stage )... with multiple people at once.... in Polyamory.

See also images of Polamory...... http://goo.gl/oKSb0

:sign5: :sign5: :sign5: Bruce, call it what you will, to me it sounds like poly-Lepidoptera. As Cicero once said, "O tempora, o mores".

[cdnmatt]

Geez bruce_nyc, at this rate it's going to cost you 250,000 baht/month to live in a small studio apartment in Thailand.

[bruce_nyc]

Nah... All three of these boys work very hard. They support themselves. They work 9 hours a day, 6 days a week. I help them out a little bit, but I don't support them. They are able-boddied and they live very modestly.

[bruce_nyc]

Of course, I will see if I can arrange for them to take time off work to spend more time with me.... while I am there... But when I leave to go back to New York... I am going back to work, and they are going back to work also. "G" most likely won't be able to take any more time off, other than that one week with me in Chiang Mai 18-24 April. Other than that, he works three jobs, so it's very unlikely he will be able to take any other time off. Thankfully, "T"'s boss loves him, so his job is a bit more flexible. They will allow him to take up to 4-6 weeks off ( without pay ), and then return to work after. It's too soon to tell with "E", but my guess is that I can keep him away from work as long as I want, as long as I pay them a 300 baht "off fee" per day ( and replace his income, of course ). We'll see how that works out...

This last trip, I boosted "T"'s standard of living a bit by decking out his bedroom at home... with air conditioning, hot water, a tv, bed linens, etc. and a new desk and chair for his laptop ( which I bought for him last time ). But those are all basically one time gifts... which have improved his quality of life every day.... Every Day of his life. He now wakes up at 6:00am to go to work, and he doesn't have to take an ice cold shower. He can take a hot or warm shower. The water heater cost 3000 baht... plus about 1000 to have it installed properly. Before, he could not even use his bedroom. It was so hot the room went completely vacant and unused. He slept on the tile floor or on the futon downstairs in the living room..... with a fan blowing on him. Then, whenever he worked late and needed to sleep in, the sun would come up, and his 2 year old nephew would begin screaming and pulling on his ears and nose until he'd wake up to play with him. Now, he loves his new bedroom. With the air conditioner installed, the new bed linen, the tv, the computer and internet, and even his new Samsung Galaxy S3 phone, he feels like he's living in a 5-star hotel. It cost very little, really, to improve his comfort and quality of life..... drastically.

Recently, I was chatting with a friend of mine online.... I was telling him about the boys ( young men ) in Thailand....
____

I posted on Facebook a photo of a super hot young Thia guy, and jokingly commented, "Every time I go to Thailand, guys like this fall in love with me. ;-) "

He said, "That is because they think you are a rich american and can get them out of Thailand."

I replied, "Most of them are not interested in leaving Thailand. But the 'rich' (by comparison) part could be part of the reason. But I don't mind if that's what opens the door and breaks the ice. As I told someone recently... And anyone who knows Thai people, knows this is true... 'Their need for a little money is very real. But usually so are their feelings of love.' "
____

Just because someone needs money, does not necessarily mean that they can't also have real feelings of love too. I need money too. If I were dating a billionaire, it would not necessarily void any real feeling I might have for that person.

And as every good Jewish mother has always taught their daughters, "It's just as easy to fall in love with a rich man as a poor man."

I think Thais are generally just very pragmatic. If they are in the sex indistry, they view it as their work. And they view their customers as customers. It's simple. But that does not mean that they don't have a heart.... and that they are not capable of also falling in love... In fact, it is very possible for them to fall in love with someone they met as a customer... But....

They are not going to fall in love with you because of how much money you gave them. They are going to fall in love with you because of how much love you gave them.

[bruce_nyc]

This is a great line... I am going to save it.... so the next time someone says, "The only reason Thai boys like you is for money." .....Or..... The next time a falong acts all bewildered about why Thai boys always seem to only want money, and don't act like they're in love... I can reply with this....


I don't mind if my being "rich" (by comparison) is what opens the door and breaks the ice... if that's what gets me the opportunity to date a man of my dreams. Their need for a little money is very real. But usually so are their feelings of love. One thing is for sure: They are not going to fall in love with you because of how much money you gave them. They are going to fall in love with you because of how much love you gave them.

[joe552]

when you start quoting your own posts, perhaps it's time to take a break, bruce? :dontknow:

[bruce_nyc]

:occasion5: ha ha

Point taken.

[latintopxxx]

brucy....you'r a very confused boy...a whore is a whore...and when a whore is in "work mode" there are no feelings/love...whatever....only the cash they can get off the customer...for as little effort as possible....using all the tricks up their sleeve. I've had "clever"ones try to minimize their participation by taking long toilet breaks ...I simply stop the clock and let them know that I booked 3 hours and i expect 3 hours of service...as long as you the customer realise that...and use it to your advantage..good times can be had...

[bruce_nyc]

Latin, I don't doubt that that has been your experience 100 percent of the time. If you were my customer, I would be exactly the same way. However, they are human beings. And they do have feelings, it turns out. If you give them humiliation and abuse, well you can see the results you get. If you give them respect and even love, you will eventually, very often, get the same in return. They're not machines that only exist for your pleasure. They're human beings. I know this news must shock you.... since you have the whole world figured out... and every one of us only exists, in your mind, to satisfy your need to try to be an S & M top in your fantasy mind... You don't have a clue what a real top is.

As they say.... "Those who don't believe in magic will never find it."

I think people are reflections of us...if we give out negative vibes...thats what we will get in return...Karma and all that....i have respect for my Thai friends inc my bf...and they respect me

[bruce_nyc]

I think people are reflections of us...if we give out negative vibes...thats what we will get in return...Karma and all that....i have respect for my Thai friends inc my bf...and they respect me

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

Cheers