Article about Thailand

[kittyboy]

I saw this article in the NYTimes. I found it interesting.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/19/world ... .html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/19/world/asia/thai-buddhist-monks-struggle-to-stay-relevant.html?_r=0)

[Brad the Impala]

I thought that it was interesting, and sad. Consumerism Rules

[Khor tose]

I liked the article and see it as a new beginning for Thailand. As a secularist, I think the education children receive in school is far better then a religious education and would rather see state education expanded, made better and fully supported. Have you ever considered what all those temples and men in them cost to support and considered how that money could be better spent?

[Jellybean]

Thanks for posting the article Kittyboy.

I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who said, "The only things certain in life are death and taxes." I think this could be updated as follows:

The only things certain in life are death, taxes and change.

I know itтАЩs a bit of a clich├й, but nothing ever stays the same. So enjoy to the full the Thailand you see today for who knows how long it will stay this way.

[Thai Dyed]

I liked the article and see it as a new beginning for Thailand. As a secularist, I think the education children receive in school is far better then a religious education and would rather see state education expanded, made better and fully supported. Have you ever considered what all those temples and men in them cost to support and considered how that money could be better spent?

Khor tose, if you are such a great social engineer, why is your own country such a seething rat hole? Hot on the heels of yet another school massacre in the USA, your suggestions are at the least untimely and in reality patently absurd. Weren't you working for the government in the USA? What wasteland did you leave behind, and better yet, why the hell did you move to Thailand in the first place if you find the culture so misguided?

May I suggest, Khor tose, that you move back to Seattle and clean your own stables before pontificating about an ancient Buddhist culture which in fact stands head and shoulders above the very tawdy kind of society you are touting.

[Geezer]

A little overwrought are we?

[Khor tose]

May I suggest, Khor tose, that you move back to Seattle and clean your own stables before pontificating about an ancient Buddhist culture which in fact stands head and shoulders above the very tawdy kind of society you are touting.

You have got to be kidding. :sign5:

[Neal]

I think a little may be a characterization similar to the Titantic springing a leak. :sign5:

[Monte]

To this forum's moderator: I think that THAI DYED's comments are far out of line--and that they should be removed.

[Neal]

Please read rules on moderation. Your request needs to be posted under the Rules and Guidelines Forum.

[kittyboy]

[quote="Khor tose":19pdl7oy]I liked the article and see it as a new beginning for Thailand. As a secularist, I think the education children receive in school is far better then a religious education and would rather see state education expanded, made better and fully supported. Have you ever considered what all those temples and men in them cost to support and considered how that money could be better spent?

Khor tose, if you are such a great social engineer, why is your own country such a seething rat hole? Hot on the heels of yet another school massacre in the USA, your suggestions are at the least untimely and in reality patently absurd. Weren't you working for the government in the USA? What wasteland did you leave behind, and better yet, why the hell did you move to Thailand in the first place if you find the culture so misguided?

May I suggest, Khor tose, that you move back to Seattle and clean your own stables before pontificating about an ancient Buddhist culture which in fact stands head and shoulders above the very tawdy kind of society you are touting.[/quote:19pdl7oy]
It is nice to see that United States bashing is still practiced in many parts of the world. The US has done a good job of running the world for the last 80 plus years....carping by the members of the minor democracies is a good sign

[kittyboy]

I liked the article and see it as a new beginning for Thailand. As a secularist, I think the education children receive in school is far better then a religious education and would rather see state education expanded, made better and fully supported. Have you ever considered what all those temples and men in them cost to support and considered how that money could be better spent?

Consumerism is probably the new opiate of the masses.
Some of my fondest memories of thailand are getting up early and seeing the monks out and about on their morning rounds. Thailand is changing. Maybe for the better....2000 year old bhuddist culture or not. Maybe for the better. Many wax poetic about bhuddism.....but is it an impediment to modernity?

Is modernity better than tradition? I tend to think it is better. Cue more overwrought rebuttals.

[christianpfc]

The US has done a good job of running the world for the last 80 plus years...
I cannot leave this uncommented.

The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative.
You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.

(from: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Winston_Churchill)

War monger and rogue state would spring to my mind if I had to comment on US foreign policy. (And their internal policy? Well, if the NRA suggests having armed guards in schools to prevent further massacres, this does not need any comment.)

But back to the subject: I am an atheist and in favor of secularisation (worldwide regardless of country and religion), so I can agree with Khor tose and think Thai Dyed's response is inappropriate.

[ceejay]

An interesting article Kittyboy. Thanks for posting.

I know itтАЩs a bit of a clich├й, but nothing ever stays the same. So enjoy to the full the Thailand you see today for who knows how long it will stay this way.
I have just returned from 3 days in Nan, one of the more remote provinces. It's a quiet place, with many old style teak houses (still in use as family homes) and some very beautiful and ancient Wats.
I happened to remark to the owner of the guest house where I was staying that I was surprised by how busy he was (the place was full). Everything I had read about Nan said that it was little visited. Not so any more, according to him. In the last 2 years the tourist trade in Nan has boomed and a lot of the tourism is internal - Thai from Bangkok visiting to see a piece of the old Thailand "while it is still there" (his expression).

[springco]

Scholars rarely refer to Buddhism as a "religion" but rather a philosophy.

The main problem that Westerners have with Buddhism is that it makes no prohibition on the belief in any deity but quite clearly states that a belief in gods is useless. You will learn this with even a superficial knowledge of Buddhism.
Buddhism is a secular philosophy and that is the main reason for its popularity among scientists, atheists, agnostics and thinkers around the world.

"Buddhism promises nothing, but actually fulfills; Christianity promises everything, but fulfills nothing." -Nietzsche, The Antichrist, Part 4, no. 42

[Khor tose]

Scholars rarely refer to Buddhism as a "religion" but rather a philosophy.

The main problem that Westerners have with Buddhism is that it makes no prohibition on the belief in any deity but quite clearly states that a belief in gods is useless. You will learn this with even a superficial knowledge of Buddhism.
Buddhism is a secular philosophy and that is the main reason for its popularity among scientists, atheists, agnostics and thinkers around the world.

"Buddhism promises nothing, but actually fulfills; Christianity promises everything, but fulfills nothing." -Nietzsche, The Antichrist, Part 4, no. 42

I love some of Nietzsche, but back to Buddhism. Yes, in its ideal you are correct. However, while I am not familiar with all forms of Buddhism, Chinese and Western Buddhism seems to fit the mold as you describe above. The Buddhism of Southeast Asia is not even close to this ideal and is far more "God" centered and pagan then these two forms with influences from animistic to Hindu religions.

[Koh Samui Luv]

...I am not familiar with all forms of Buddhism...

More likely I wonder if you are familiar with Buddhism at all. But you do seem to have an agenda which is typical of people with your background.

[Khor tose]

[quote="Khor tose":36nailza] ...I am not familiar with all forms of Buddhism...

More likely I wonder if you are familiar with Buddhism at all. But you do seem to have an agenda which is typical of people with your background.[/quote:36nailza]

And my background and agenda is?

[Beachlover]

Interesting article, Kittyboy...

I've spent some time in a temple (not in Thailand) and I think the temples have themselves to blame for their decline. They need to make their role and value offering relevant to the needs of modern Thailand or they will become irrelevant and obsolete. They need to adapt and evolve to satisfy the changing needs of society.

Rituals, ceremony and practices, which carry no purpose of meaning should be dropped and replaced with rituals and practices, which actually add value and serve a purpose for those attending the temples.

It's sad, because I think Buddhist temples actually have a vital role to play in imparting important core values and principles to people as they're growing up. Something that is particularly important in fast evolving and growing consumer society.


Scholars rarely refer to Buddhism as a "religion" but rather a philosophy.
Yep... That's correct. The problem is when it becomes heavily institutionalised with meaningless and irrelevant rituals, ceremonies and practices that detract from the core teachings it is supposed to impart.

[adman5000]

I think the article is a weak piece of journalism. The NY Times must be hard up for "news" if it is going into the wilds of remote Thailand and making extrapolations about Buddhism across Thailand. I am sure Buddhism is battling consumerism as much as ever. I think the Thai education system of government versus local temple provided education is also going through change. But I think painting the picture as if the monks are dying out is a bit extreme. It makes me wonder how many temples the writer visited or how many monks he talked to or how many Thai families he talked to?

I also find it disappointing how quickly some board members start bashing each other and then their countries. I think this board would be much more enjoyable if everyone showed a bit more respect. I think I will take a vacation from this board for a while.